Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp
Johnny, I’m interested in working with you and Sami on this. These two characters are often referred to as quarter sharp and quarter flat as well. The symbols are also widely used outside Arabic music. The western classical tradition from the 20th century on is full of them. They're not obscure symbols really. Musicians with even a moderate interest in contemporary music are aware of them. I’m travelling in Sweden working on Blissymbols at the moment, but when I get back home on Friday and can consult some of my reference works I’ll get in touch with you. It shouldn’t take long to put something together. Michael Everson On 29 Mar 2015, at 05:21, Johnny Farraj johnnyfar...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear unicode list members, I wish to get feedback about a new character submission proposal. Currently the Miscellaneous Symbols table (2600-26FF) includes the following characters: 266D ♭ MUSIC FLAT SIGN 266F ♯ MUSIC SHARP SIGN while the Musical Symbols table (1D100 - 1D1FF) includes the following characters: 1D12A 턪 MUSICAL SYMBOL DOUBLE SHARP 1D12B 턫 MUSICAL SYMBOL DOUBLE FLAT 1D12C 턬 MUSICAL SYMBOL FLAT UP 1D12D 턭 MUSICAL SYMBOL FLAT DOWN 1D130 터 MUSICAL SYMBOL SHARP UP 1D131 턱 MUSICAL SYMBOL SHARP DOWN 1D132 턲 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP 1D133 턳 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT I am proposing the addition of 2 new characters to the Musical Symbols table: - the half-flat sign (lower note by a quarter tone) - the half-sharp sign (raise note by a quarter tone) half-flat sign.png half-sharp sign.png These are widely used in Arabic music notation, and they express intervals that are multiples of quarter tones. I am the primary sponsor of this proposal. As far as my credentials, I am the owner of http://maqamworld.com, the most widely used online resource on Arabic music theory, in English. I can also enlist the support of many academics in the ethnomusicology field, who specialize in Arabic music. I welcome any feedback on this proposal. thanks Johnny Farraj johnnyfar...@yahoo.com ___ Unicode mailing list Unicode@unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode
Re: Meroitic cursive fractions numerical values
On 28 March 2015 at 20:05, Karl Williamson pub...@khwilliamson.com wrote: Existing software that looks at the numeric values of characters is written expecting that rational numbers will have been reduced to their lowest form. That seems to be a rather rash statement. I have software (BabelPad) which parses the numeric values of characters for numeric sorting purposes, and it parses 6/12 for MEROITIC CURSIVE FRACTION SIX TWELFTHS as 0.5. Personally I find it hard to imagine how you could write software that accepts 6/12 as input and is unable to come up with the answer of a half. I would say that fractions should not be reduced to their lowest form in the Unicode data as some people may need to order fractions by numerator or denominator, and reducing to lowest form could break the expectations of some software. Having said that, I note that the numeric value of one character has been reduced in the Unicode data: U+2189 VULGAR FRACTION ZERO THIRDS is given the numeric value of 0 rather that 0/3. Andrew ___ Unicode mailing list Unicode@unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode
Re: Meroitic cursive fractions numerical values
How would you note the numeric value property of the mathematical pi symbol, if you use 0.5, assuming that it should be written as a single decimal value without using any operator ? You can't because there's an infinite number of decimals, unless you explciitly says that the numeric property is limtied to the precision of an IEEE 64-bit double floatting point value (or 80-bit long double supported natively by x86 processors). So you have to imagine that the numeric value property is effectively a mathematical expression using some conventional set of mathematical symbols (in which case the numeric value property of the pi symbol should be the symbol itself). In that case, writing 6/12 or 1/2 is fully equivalent, mathematically, as this property is a mathematical expression. Now that property should have a syntax defined. The problem being that for complex expressions there are several mathematical notations, the most common used in plaintext being using TeX (except that it does not just note the expression itself but its presentation and layout). Could Unicode define a basic plaintext syntax for a subset of mathematical expressions that are useful to parse the numeric value field ? It would of course contain the syntax for numbers (using all decimal digits from various scripts, but ignoring the localized conventions for decimal separators, reduced to just the ASCII dot, and the grouping separators, reduced to none), restricting the use of unnecessary whitespaces in that field, reducing the use of unnecessary leading zeroes, or trailing zeroes in decimal parts), it would contain the subset of symbolic constants encoded in Unicode as symbolic constants (such as pi, e, i). It would not contain any symbolic constant directly expressible with others. It could potentially contain superscript digits used for exponents. And of course it would contain the common set of arithmetic operators (+, the ASCII MINUS-HYPHEN or mathematical MINUS, × or the ASCII ASTERISK, / or ÷, ^ for noting exponentiation, and parentheses), or algebric operators (such as√). It would not include special operators (such as ±) that can't be evaluated to a single number in a single dimensional numerical body (so we limit us to the body of complex numbers ?). Further extensions would include some common functions such as core trigonometric and hyperbolic functions (sine, cosine, tangent, cotangent) and their inverse, and logarithms. That syntax would not specify if those expressions are effectively evaluatable such as 0/0 (it's up to implementations to check this according to their own numeric domain) as the syntax does not specify the numeric domain (body or ring?) in which it will be evaluated (for example 1/0 is valid in some rings where all member numbers are invertible, including zero), and it will not assume that -1 is necessarily different from +1 (they are equivalent in Z/2Z which just contains two members: 0 and 1, and where 2 or 4 are also equal 0) or the precision of numbers (1/100 could be equal to 0 in an integer domain). This could be the base for defining a basic set of expressions that many programming languages could support in their syntax, using the precision they want or can support (even if their native syntax use other similar notations with simple substitution rules. For this reason, it seems more natural to avoid reducing fractions in the numeric property value, and keep them in their natural form : 6/12 NOT reduced to 1/2, and 0/3 NOT reduced to 0 (because this may incorrectly assume a subset of a linear numeric body): let the implementation define itself its numeric domain and these expressions are evaluatable in that domain: the parser will be the same, only the evaluator will be different as it completely depends on the numeric domain. 2015-03-29 11:41 GMT+02:00 Andrew West andrewcw...@gmail.com: On 28 March 2015 at 20:05, Karl Williamson pub...@khwilliamson.com wrote: Existing software that looks at the numeric values of characters is written expecting that rational numbers will have been reduced to their lowest form. That seems to be a rather rash statement. I have software (BabelPad) which parses the numeric values of characters for numeric sorting purposes, and it parses 6/12 for MEROITIC CURSIVE FRACTION SIX TWELFTHS as 0.5. Personally I find it hard to imagine how you could write software that accepts 6/12 as input and is unable to come up with the answer of a half. I would say that fractions should not be reduced to their lowest form in the Unicode data as some people may need to order fractions by numerator or denominator, and reducing to lowest form could break the expectations of some software. Having said that, I note that the numeric value of one character has been reduced in the Unicode data: U+2189 VULGAR FRACTION ZERO THIRDS is given the numeric value of 0 rather that 0/3. Andrew ___ Unicode mailing list
Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp
Wouldn't it be easier just to change the example glyphs for U+1D132 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP and U+1D133 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT? The ones currently in the charts do not appear to be in common use. The most common symbol for the quarter tone flat, from what I've gathered, is a reversed flat sign. Some composers use the flat with stroke. One potential complication: AIUI the Arel-Ezgi-Uzdilek system for notating Turkish music, which divides each whole tone into nine koma, uses both, along with a few altered sharps. On Sunday, March 29, 2015, Michael Everson ever...@evertype.com wrote: Johnny, I’m interested in working with you and Sami on this. These two characters are often referred to as quarter sharp and quarter flat as well. The symbols are also widely used outside Arabic music. The western classical tradition from the 20th century on is full of them. They're not obscure symbols really. Musicians with even a moderate interest in contemporary music are aware of them. I’m travelling in Sweden working on Blissymbols at the moment, but when I get back home on Friday and can consult some of my reference works I’ll get in touch with you. It shouldn’t take long to put something together. Michael Everson On 29 Mar 2015, at 05:21, Johnny Farraj johnnyfar...@yahoo.com javascript:; wrote: Dear unicode list members, I wish to get feedback about a new character submission proposal. Currently the Miscellaneous Symbols table (2600-26FF) includes the following characters: 266D ♭ MUSIC FLAT SIGN 266F ♯ MUSIC SHARP SIGN while the Musical Symbols table (1D100 - 1D1FF) includes the following characters: 1D12A 턪 MUSICAL SYMBOL DOUBLE SHARP 1D12B 턫 MUSICAL SYMBOL DOUBLE FLAT 1D12C 턬 MUSICAL SYMBOL FLAT UP 1D12D 턭 MUSICAL SYMBOL FLAT DOWN 1D130 터 MUSICAL SYMBOL SHARP UP 1D131 턱 MUSICAL SYMBOL SHARP DOWN 1D132 턲 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP 1D133 턳 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT I am proposing the addition of 2 new characters to the Musical Symbols table: - the half-flat sign (lower note by a quarter tone) - the half-sharp sign (raise note by a quarter tone) half-flat sign.png half-sharp sign.png These are widely used in Arabic music notation, and they express intervals that are multiples of quarter tones. I am the primary sponsor of this proposal. As far as my credentials, I am the owner of http://maqamworld.com, the most widely used online resource on Arabic music theory, in English. I can also enlist the support of many academics in the ethnomusicology field, who specialize in Arabic music. I welcome any feedback on this proposal. thanks Johnny Farraj johnnyfar...@yahoo.com javascript:; ___ Unicode mailing list Unicode@unicode.org javascript:; http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode ___ Unicode mailing list Unicode@unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode
Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp
On 2015-03-29, Johnny Farraj johnnyfar...@yahoo.com wrote: Michael, Thanks for the swift response, and your interest. Your collaboration is greatly appreciated. Do you have any experience in submitting new Unicode character proposals? And/or with creating the reference copy of a symbol in the format required? I think Michael should print this out and frame it, as a modern equivalent of the slave muttering memento mori ... -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. ___ Unicode mailing list Unicode@unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode
Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp
On 29 Mar 2015, at 19:53, Johnny Farraj johnnyfar...@yahoo.com wrote: Michael, Thanks for the swift response, and your interest. Your collaboration is greatly appreciated. My pleasure. Do you have any experience in submitting new Unicode character proposals? And/or with creating the reference copy of a symbol in the format required? A little. See http://www.evertype.com/formal.html :-) Michael Everson ___ Unicode mailing list Unicode@unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode
Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp
Right, I was just pointing out that Turkish music is a potential complication if changing the glyph for MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT. Here's how I understand it: Arabic music - uses the flat-with-stroke exclusively as a quarter tone flat Western quarter tone music - uses the reversed flat and flat-with-stroke interchangeably as a quarter tone flat, but the reversed flat is more common Turkish music - uses both the reversed flat and flat-with-stroke contrastively (neither, strictly speaking, as a quarter tone flat since quarter tones do not exist in Turkish music) On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 1:41 PM, sami shumays abushum...@hotmail.com wrote: Just one comment: the reversed flat is not commonly used in Arabic notation, it is primarily a Turkish symbol. The symbols Johnny is proposing are important so that we can have easy access to the symbols appropriate to our music. Though Arabic and Turkish music systems share many characteristics, they are not one unified system. And Johnny and I are not experts in the Turkish system, although we have familiarity with it, so experts in Turkish music would need to weigh in regarding any additional symbols needed for their music. For Arabic Music notation, the two Johnny proposes would be sufficient. -Sami Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone Original message From: Garth Wallace Date:03/29/2015 4:02 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Michael Everson Cc: unicode@unicode.org, Johnny Farraj , Sami Shumays Subject: Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp Wouldn't it be easier just to change the example glyphs for U+1D132 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP and U+1D133 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT? The ones currently in the charts do not appear to be in common use. The most common symbol for the quarter tone flat, from what I've gathered, is a reversed flat sign. Some composers use the flat with stroke. One potential complication: AIUI the Arel-Ezgi-Uzdilek system for notating Turkish music, which divides each whole tone into nine koma, uses both, along with a few altered sharps. On Sunday, March 29, 2015, Michael Everson ever...@evertype.com wrote: Johnny, I’m interested in working with you and Sami on this. These two characters are often referred to as quarter sharp and quarter flat as well. The symbols are also widely used outside Arabic music. The western classical tradition from the 20th century on is full of them. They're not obscure symbols really. Musicians with even a moderate interest in contemporary music are aware of them. I’m travelling in Sweden working on Blissymbols at the moment, but when I get back home on Friday and can consult some of my reference works I’ll get in touch with you. It shouldn’t take long to put something together. Michael Everson On 29 Mar 2015, at 05:21, Johnny Farraj johnnyfar...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear unicode list members, I wish to get feedback about a new character submission proposal. Currently the Miscellaneous Symbols table (2600-26FF) includes the following characters: 266D ♭ MUSIC FLAT SIGN 266F ♯ MUSIC SHARP SIGN while the Musical Symbols table (1D100 - 1D1FF) includes the following characters: 1D12A 턪 MUSICAL SYMBOL DOUBLE SHARP 1D12B 턫 MUSICAL SYMBOL DOUBLE FLAT 1D12C 턬 MUSICAL SYMBOL FLAT UP 1D12D 턭 MUSICAL SYMBOL FLAT DOWN 1D130 터 MUSICAL SYMBOL SHARP UP 1D131 턱 MUSICAL SYMBOL SHARP DOWN 1D132 턲 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP 1D133 턳 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT I am proposing the addition of 2 new characters to the Musical Symbols table: - the half-flat sign (lower note by a quarter tone) - the half-sharp sign (raise note by a quarter tone) half-flat sign.png half-sharp sign.png These are widely used in Arabic music notation, and they express intervals that are multiples of quarter tones. I am the primary sponsor of this proposal. As far as my credentials, I am the owner of http://maqamworld.com, the most widely used online resource on Arabic music theory, in English. I can also enlist the support of many academics in the ethnomusicology field, who specialize in Arabic music. I welcome any feedback on this proposal. thanks Johnny Farraj johnnyfar...@yahoo.com ___ Unicode mailing list Unicode@unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode ___ Unicode mailing list Unicode@unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode
Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp
On 29 Mar 2015, at 22:02, Garth Wallace gwa...@gmail.com wrote: Wouldn't it be easier just to change the example glyphs for U+1D132 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP and U+1D133 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT? The ones currently in the charts do not appear to be in common use. It would be better to let the symbols be used as intended to be drawn. Documenting such widely varied “glyph variation” would not end up serving the user community, I think. The most common symbol for the quarter tone flat, from what I've gathered, is a reversed flat sign. Some composers use the flat with stroke. One potential complication: AIUI the Arel-Ezgi-Uzdilek system for notating Turkish music, which divides each whole tone into nine koma, uses both, along with a few altered sharps. Have you references? This topic may be a little obscure for the general list; we can take it offline. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ ___ Unicode mailing list Unicode@unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode
Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp
On 29 Mar 2015, at 22:41, sami shumays abushum...@hotmail.com wrote: Just one comment: the reversed flat is not commonly used in Arabic notation, But is it used? it is primarily a Turkish symbol. The symbols Johnny is proposing are important so that we can have easy access to the symbols appropriate to our music. Though Arabic and Turkish music systems share many characteristics, they are not one unified system. And Johnny and I are not experts in the Turkish system, although we have familiarity with it, so experts in Turkish music would need to weigh in regarding any additional symbols needed for their music. For Arabic Music notation, the two Johnny proposes would be sufficient. This is why we should have detailed discussion about these and related characters. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ ___ Unicode mailing list Unicode@unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode
Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp
On 29 Mar 2015, at 23:29, Garth Wallace gwa...@gmail.com wrote: Right, I was just pointing out that Turkish music is a potential complication if changing the glyph for MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT. Here's how I understand it: Arabic music - uses the flat-with-stroke exclusively as a quarter tone flat Western quarter tone music - uses the reversed flat and flat-with-stroke interchangeably as a quarter tone flat, but the reversed flat is more common Turkish music - uses both the reversed flat and flat-with-stroke contrastively (neither, strictly speaking, as a quarter tone flat since quarter tones do not exist in Turkish music) That’s quite some variety. There are also the three-quarter flat and sharp in Western music to consider. I’ll be able to dig into this after I get back to Ireland from Sweden on Friday. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ ___ Unicode mailing list Unicode@unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode
Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp
That’s quite some variety. There are also the three-quarter flat and sharp in Western music to consider. I’ll be able to dig into this after I get back to Ireland from Sweden on Friday. You should check the Standard Music Font Layout (SmuFL) for details; it also has a freely available font that covers it. http://www.smufl.org The recent version of the specification can be found at http://www.smufl.org/files/smufl-1.12.pdf Werner ___ Unicode mailing list Unicode@unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode
Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp
On 3/29/2015 2:39 PM, Michael Everson wrote: On 29 Mar 2015, at 22:02, Garth Wallace gwa...@gmail.com wrote: Wouldn't it be easier just to change the example glyphs for U+1D132 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP and U+1D133 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT? The ones currently in the charts do not appear to be in common use. It would be better to let the symbols be used as intended to be drawn. Documenting such widely varied “glyph variation” would not end up serving the user community, I think. Glyph variations are fine as long as there is a) never a contrasting usage in the same context b) a common practice of alternating presentations w/o change of meaning c) a common understanding that the details of presentation are stylistic In this case, one or more of these conditions appear not to be met. A./ The most common symbol for the quarter tone flat, from what I've gathered, is a reversed flat sign. Some composers use the flat with stroke. One potential complication: AIUI the Arel-Ezgi-Uzdilek system for notating Turkish music, which divides each whole tone into nine koma, uses both, along with a few altered sharps. Have you references? This topic may be a little obscure for the general list; we can take it offline. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ ___ Unicode mailing list Unicode@unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode ___ Unicode mailing list Unicode@unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode
Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp
It would be worth to bring the collection of music symbols up to a more comprehensive set in one go, rather than to do it piecemeal. A./ On 3/29/2015 3:07 PM, Werner LEMBERG wrote: That’s quite some variety. There are also the three-quarter flat and sharp in Western music to consider. I’ll be able to dig into this after I get back to Ireland from Sweden on Friday. You should check the Standard Music Font Layout (SmuFL) for details; it also has a freely available font that covers it. http://www.smufl.org The recent version of the specification can be found at http://www.smufl.org/files/smufl-1.12.pdf Werner ___ Unicode mailing list Unicode@unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode ___ Unicode mailing list Unicode@unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode
Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp
On 30 Mar 2015, at 00:49, Asmus Freytag (t) asmus-...@ix.netcom.com wrote: It would be worth to bring the collection of music symbols up to a more comprehensive set in one go, rather than to do it piecemeal. Yup. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ ___ Unicode mailing list Unicode@unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode
Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp
On 03/29/2015 06:51 PM, Michael Everson wrote: On 30 Mar 2015, at 00:49, Asmus Freytag (t) asmus-...@ix.netcom.com wrote: It would be worth to bring the collection of music symbols up to a more comprehensive set in one go, rather than to do it piecemeal. Yup. Just read through (most of) the smufl reference... Yes, I think we've finally found something to do with one of those empty planes that have been lying around... (or at least part of one) ~mark ___ Unicode mailing list Unicode@unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode
Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp
On 30 Mar 2015, at 00:07, Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org wrote: You should check the Standard Music Font Layout (SmuFL) for details; it also has a freely available font that covers it. http://www.smufl.org The recent version of the specification can be found at http://www.smufl.org/files/smufl-1.12.pdf It works with LilyPond http://lilypond.org, using some OpenLilyPond extensions. Also, there a SMuFL glyph browsing page here: http://www.smufl.org/version/latest/ ___ Unicode mailing list Unicode@unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode
Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp
On 29 Mar 2015, at 22:02, Garth Wallace gwa...@gmail.com wrote: The most common symbol for the quarter tone flat, from what I've gathered, is a reversed flat sign. Some composers use the flat with stroke. One potential complication: AIUI the Arel-Ezgi-Uzdilek system for notating Turkish music, which divides each whole tone into nine koma, uses both, along with a few altered sharps. Some of the Turkish systems are discussed by Ozan Yarman, A Comparative Evaluation of Pitch Notations in Turkish Makam Music”. ___ Unicode mailing list Unicode@unicode.org http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode
