Re: Private Use areas - Vertical Text
> > On 29 August 2018 at 13:05 Andrew West via Unicode > wrote: > > I tested with Word 2007, and normal PUA characters from my font were > > displayed with vertical orientation in a vertical text box, but Plane > 15 PUA characters were rotated. > And then the original question is whether a font can suppress this rotation. For example, it is entirely possible that the rotation could be eliminated by the vrt2 OpenType feature mapping a Zhuang PUA glyph to an identical glyph. Richard.
Re: Private Use areas - Vertical Text
On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 at 11:18, wrote: > > I was using a change horizontal to vertical text feature in office, the > PUA characters being from plane 15. I tested with Word 2007, and normal PUA characters from my font were displayed with vertical orientation in a vertical text box, but Plane 15 PUA characters were rotated. I also tested with Word 2016, and both normal PUA characters and Plane 15 PUA characters were displayed with vertical orientation in a vertical text box, as you want, although there were vertical spacing issues with the Plane 15 PUA characters which suggest that the vertical metrics tables (vhea and vmtx) in the font are not being applied for Plane 15 characters (or it could be a problem with my font). Andrew
Re: Private Use areas - Vertical Text
Dear Andrew, I was using a change horizontal to vertical text feature in office, the PUA characters being from plane 15. Regards John On 2018-08-29 16:32, Andrew West via Unicode wrote: On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 at 05:07, via Unicode wrote: Yes, as Richard says when CJK Zhuang text is displayed vertically whilst the Zhuang characters in Unicode remain upright, but those with PUA codepoints are rotated 90°. John, you did not explain by what mechanism you were trying to display vertical PUA Zhuang text. I can display vertically-oriented PUA-encoded CJKVZ ideographs in vertical layout in web pages using CSS, as demonstrated in this test page: http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Fonts/PUA_Vertical_Test.html The PUA characters display with correct orientation under Windows 10 on the Edge, Chrome and Firefox browsers. The test page only fails under IE, but we are not meant to use IE anymore anyway. Andrew
Re: Private Use areas - Vertical Text
On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 at 05:07, via Unicode wrote: > > Yes, as Richard says when CJK Zhuang text is displayed vertically whilst > the Zhuang characters in Unicode remain upright, but those with PUA > codepoints are rotated 90°. John, you did not explain by what mechanism you were trying to display vertical PUA Zhuang text. I can display vertically-oriented PUA-encoded CJKVZ ideographs in vertical layout in web pages using CSS, as demonstrated in this test page: http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Fonts/PUA_Vertical_Test.html The PUA characters display with correct orientation under Windows 10 on the Edge, Chrome and Firefox browsers. The test page only fails under IE, but we are not meant to use IE anymore anyway. Andrew
Re: Private Use areas - Vertical Text
On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 at 18:15, WORDINGHAM RICHARD via Unicode wrote: > > Unicode is doing what it can in this matter: > > (a) Zhuang PUA characters are being made individually obsolete. Not by a nebulous entity called "Unicode", or even by the Unicode Consortium per se, but by the hard work over many years by individual experts such as John Knightley. Andrew
Re: Private Use areas - Vertical Text
John Knightley wrote, > Yes, as Richard says when CJK Zhuang text is displayed > vertically whilst the Zhuang characters in Unicode remain > upright, but those with PUA codepoints are rotated 90°. > This is because the PUA characters are treated like English > text, which are correctly rotated 90°. ... > > ... > ... the need for PUA Zhuang characters remains, and will > so for decades to come. A possible work-around would be to have two fonts for PUA Zhuang, one for horizontal text and one for vertical. The one for the vertical text would have the glyphs in the font pre-rotated 90° anti-clockwise. This would require font switching when switching from horizontal to vertical layout, of course.
RE: Private Use areas - Vertical Text
Dear Richard and Peter,
apologies for the lack of clarity. Let me try to explain below.
On 2018-08-29 01:13, WORDINGHAM RICHARD via Unicode wrote:
On 27 August 2018 at 15:22 Peter Constable via Unicode
wrote:
Layout engines that support CJK vertical layout do not rely on the
'vert' feature to rotate glyphs for CJK ideographs, but rather
rotate the glyph 90° and switch to using vertical glyph metrics.
The 'vert' feature is used to substitute vertical alternate glyphs
as needed, such as for punctuation that isn't automatically rotated
(and would probably need a differently-positioned alternate in any
case).
Cf. UAX 50.
There have been some pretty confused statements. I believe the
observed problem is that PUA characters for Zhuang CJK ideographs get
rotated when displayed vertically rather than left-to-right.
Yes, as Richard says when CJK Zhuang text is displayed vertically whilst
the Zhuang characters in Unicode remain upright, but those with PUA
codepoints are rotated 90°. This is because the PUA characters are
treated like English text, which are correctly rotated 90°. The
orientation of the CJK characters in this case appears to depend on
which block they belong to. As Peter points out this does not seem to
match UAX 50.
Unicode is doing what it can in this matter:
(a) Zhuang PUA characters are being made individually obsolete.
Yes and No. Whilst a thousand Zhuang characters have been enocoded and
two thousand have been submitted via IRG, however the number of PUA
Zhuang characters is about the same or increasing. In 2006 when started
just under 6k PUA points were used, presently there are over 8k, over 6k
of which have not been submitted, and the earliest any future
submissions can be encoded is 2026. That being said the number of more
common Zhuang characters needing PUA support is coming down. So whilst
individual characters are being resolved, the need for PUA Zhuang
characters remains, and will so for decades to come.
(b) By default, PUA characters have the value of
Vertical_orientation=upright as do CJK ideographs.
Noted above.
Regards
John
For CJK ideographs, it is not clear to me when the vert feature (if
present) would be applied. Is it only for some codepoints (vo=tu), or
is it for all that the engine expects to be displayed 'upright' in
vertical text? The vrtr feature (if present) would be applied when
glyphs are to be rotated. Is it for all such glyphs, or only those
for which rotation is expected to be inadequate (vo=tr)? It seems
that feature vrt2 is to be applied to all glyphs; perhaps rotation is
the default behaviour when there is no look-up value for a glyph that
the engine expects to be rotated. The truly difficult case would be
when there is no attempt to apply a look-up - possibly vrtr would not
apply to /p{vo=r}.
I would expect that defining the lookup vrt2 or vrtr to map Zhuang
glyphs to themselves (or something prerotated) would cure the problem.
This would not work for sequences of Zhuang ideographs treated as RTL
text - but that is unlikely to happen.
Richard.
RE: Private Use areas - Vertical Text
>
> On 27 August 2018 at 15:22 Peter Constable via Unicode
> wrote:
>
> Layout engines that support CJK vertical layout do not rely on the 'vert'
> feature to rotate glyphs for CJK ideographs, but rather rotate the glyph 90°
> and switch to using vertical glyph metrics. The 'vert' feature is used to
> substitute vertical alternate glyphs as needed, such as for punctuation that
> isn't automatically rotated (and would probably need a differently-positioned
> alternate in any case).
>
> Cf. UAX 50.
>
There have been some pretty confused statements. I believe the observed problem
is that PUA characters for Zhuang CJK ideographs get rotated when displayed
vertically rather than left-to-right.
Unicode is doing what it can in this matter:
(a) Zhuang PUA characters are being made individually obsolete.
(b) By default, PUA characters have the value of Vertical_orientation=upright
as do CJK ideographs.
For CJK ideographs, it is not clear to me when the vert feature (if present)
would be applied. Is it only for some codepoints (vo=tu), or is it for all
that the engine expects to be displayed ‘upright’ in vertical text? The vrtr
feature (if present) would be applied when glyphs are to be rotated. Is it for
all such glyphs, or only those for which rotation is expected to be inadequate
(vo=tr)? It seems that feature vrt2 is to be applied to all glyphs; perhaps
rotation is the default behaviour when there is no look-up value for a glyph
that the engine expects to be rotated. The truly difficult case would be when
there is no attempt to apply a look-up – possibly vrtr would not apply to
/p{vo=r}.
I would expect that defining the lookup vrt2 or vrtr to map Zhuang glyphs to
themselves (or something prerotated) would cure the problem. This would not
work for sequences of Zhuang ideographs treated as RTL text - but that is
unlikely to happen.
Richard.
