date:20210908

And when it happens, all the LC globals show up too regardless of the "Show IDE Stacks in 
Lists" setting.


On 9/8/21 12:56 PM, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode wrote:

I've seen it for years too. I never worked out what caused it.  But I'm an
inveterate user of the message box when debugging. I will look out for a
pattern to it now.

On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 6:32 PM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:


This has been going on for years but I never reported it because... lazy.
For me, it happens when I'm stepping through a handler and I change or
query something in the message box.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On September 8, 2021 11:25:24 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
 wrote:


Here's a new one. I've noticed this before, that globals were appearing
when show globals checkbox was not hilited. I just noticed that during

this

condition, checking the show globals checkbox hides the globals! LOL!

I'll

toss up a bug report later.

Bob S


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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?


On 9/8/21 3:39 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:

On 9/8/21 1:20 PM, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:
Ah, the problem with calling things “facts” where the data isn’t actually knowable.  The 
number of hairs on my head is a fact but not one that can be accurately known.  Kind of like 
the number of people who watched the Super Bowl.  In that context, true fact makes sense 
(also “cold hard fact”).  While it should be redundant, it emphasizes that the data being 
referenced is an actual fact and not an assumed fact.


IMO a fact is true. There are no false facts.
That being said, a fact is true within its domain space.
'Atoms are indivisible' was a fact until it wasn't.
That doesn't make it a false fact, just a false statement.
At the time of a fact's creation/utterance/whatever it's true, otherwise it's 
not a fact.



Oh cool. Now we can go back to arguing again.

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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

2021-09-08 Thread matthias rebbe via use-livecode

How lucky we Germans are with having to write some words in capitals. ;) 

'ein Paar' (a couple)  means 2
'ein Paar Schuhe' means a pair of shoes

'ein paar' means two or three or somewhere in the range.
'ein paar Schuhe' means 2 or 3 or somewhere in the range shoes 


In the English lessons in school  we learned  that for example  'a couple of 
days' meant 2 or 3 or somewhere in that range.
And when we used  'couple' as a noun then it was meant as  2 that belong to 
each other or however you would call that.
e.g. married couple, bird couple. That's the way i use 'couple" now for more 
than 40 years. 

Don't tell me that i was wrong more than 40 years. ;) 


> Am 08.09.2021 um 21:54 schrieb J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means 
> two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in 
> that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded 
> him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped.


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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

2021-09-08 Thread matthias rebbe via use-livecode

Btw. this is how Merriam-Webster thinks about couple, few and several.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/couple-few-several-use 




> Am 09.09.2021 um 00:08 schrieb matthias rebbe via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> More than three. 
> 
> 
> 
>> Am 09.09.2021 um 00:04 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
>> :
>> 
>> Then what does a few mean? 
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 8, 2021, at 14:49 , matthias rebbe via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> How lucky we Germans are with having to write some words in capitals. ;) 
>>> 
>>> 'ein Paar' (a couple)  means 2
>>> 'ein Paar Schuhe' means a pair of shoes
>>> 
>>> 'ein paar' means two or three or somewhere in the range.
>>> 'ein paar Schuhe' means 2 or 3 or somewhere in the range shoes 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> In the English lessons in school  we learned  that for example  'a couple 
>>> of days' meant 2 or 3 or somewhere in that range.
>>> And when we used  'couple' as a noun then it was meant as  2 that belong to 
>>> each other or however you would call that.
>>> e.g. married couple, bird couple. That's the way i use 'couple" now for 
>>> more than 40 years. 
>>> 
>>> Don't tell me that i was wrong more than 40 years. ;) 
>>> 
>>> 
 Am 08.09.2021 um 21:54 schrieb J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
 :
 
 My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means 
 two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere 
 in that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I 
 reminded him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both 
 stopped.
>> 
>> 
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Re: AW: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

2021-09-08 Thread Ali Lloyd via use-livecode

One thing to check is whether you are using a fixed width font, and if not
whether you have the same performance issue with the SE when using one.

On Wed, 8 Sep 2021, 18:52 Bernard Devlin via use-livecode, <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I pasted 8000 lines of text into Script Editor on Windows (just 1 large
> block comment).  On typing chars take a couple of seconds to appear once
> there is that much text.  Cut it down to 800 lines and it's fine.
>
> With 8000 lines switch off "live errors" and the slow typing issue is gone.
>
> I've asked Erik to try with 8000 line comment on his 32GB rig, since he has
> no problems. He might have to increase the size of the text in that field
> to 12000 or 16000, but I suspect eventually he too will get your treacle.
>
> On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:52 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > When it works it works - I cut the main stack to 7000 lines and still get
> > the slowdown.
> >
> > When it slows down its the same treacle/quicksand/molasses whether the
> > machine is a 10th gen with 16g or an 8gig pentium - when its fast its
> fast
> > on both - no consistency
> >
> > Lagi
> >
> >
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Re: Send a table in an email.

Me too, Bob. Same sort of scenario. It should just deal with them. 

It looks like I may end up with a mix of Mark’s and Rick’s suggestions. Maybe 
just html that bit. 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Productions Ltd

eMail Ts & Cs


> On 8 Sep 2021, at 18:09, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have this need as well. I send emails with completed tickets that have 
> table data. What I have done in the past is use fixed length data padded with 
> spaces, then I send the email in a monospaced font. Having the ability to 
> send an email as html formatted text would be great, but last time I 
> attempted it, it does not get received as html displayed, but only as the 
> html itself. 
> 
> Watching thread with interest. 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Sep 8, 2021, at 09:41 , Rick Harrison via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Sean,
>> 
>> So you want the receiver of your emailed table to be able to modify the data 
>> in it.
>> 
>> I would make it an HTML email so you can allow the user to enter the data
>> directly into your server database table field.
>> 
>> That’s if I am understanding you correctly here.
>> 
>> Rick
>> 
>> 
 On Sep 8, 2021, at 11:05 AM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode 
  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Rick,
>>> 
>>> It's not strictly what I was asking as I am talking about the mimeEncode
>>> library. Plus it's a file that is then not easily selectable directly from
>>> the email. I just want to be able to display a small table of data in the
>>> email that is easily readable with a small footprint and using specifically
>>> the mimeEncodeFieldAsMIMEMultipartDocument(pField).
>>> 
>>> Sean
>> 
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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

2021-09-08 Thread Brian Milby via use-livecode

Ah, the problem with calling things “facts” where the data isn’t actually 
knowable.  The number of hairs on my head is a fact but not one that can be 
accurately known.  Kind of like the number of people who watched the Super 
Bowl.  In that context, true fact makes sense (also “cold hard fact”).  While 
it should be redundant, it emphasizes that the data being referenced is an 
actual fact and not an assumed fact.

My dad always was clear that “couple” of minutes was 2 and a few was 3.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 8, 2021, at 3:55 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means 
> two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in 
> that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded 
> him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped.
> 
> Addendum: he claims there are "true facts." I say that is redundant, that a 
> fact is by definition true, and he's implying there are false facts (or as we 
> say in the US, "alternative facts.") This has been going on for years. It's a 
> friendly, amusing, kind of false disagreement. Then one day we just looked it 
> up in the dictionary and...a fact can either be a true bit of information, or 
> a generic datum.
> 
> And that spoiled all the fun.
> 
> On 9/8/21 6:14 AM, Keith Martin via use-livecode wrote:
 On Sep 7, 2021, at 11:04 PM, Martin Koob via use-livecode 
  wrote:
>>> 
>>> My wife and I have an ongoing disagreement about the term 'couple of’ in 
>>> terms of counting.  I say it means around 2 or 3ish.  She says it means 2. 
>>> Further she says if you wanted to say 3 or 4 you would say ‘a few’.
>> I'm the kind of person that distinguishes between 'like' (exclusive: similar 
>> to but not) and 'such as' (inclusive: similar to and part of the comparison 
>> set), so this is coming from a position of pedantry, but that's because I am 
>> a writer...
>> Strictly speaking, 'a couple' means two, no more and no less. In casual use 
>> (when counting, not when referring to relationship partnerships) it isn't 
>> unusual for it to be used in place of 'a few' and possibly mean three or 
>> even four, but it's not technically *correct.*
>> I too hope your wife's logic is what holds true!
>> :)
>> k
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> 
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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

The number of hairs on your head at a given point in space and time are a fact, 
and can be theoretically known. I always say that once we know everything about 
a subject, there can be no ambiguity, no "alternate point of view". A fact, or 
"the truth" about a thing is singular. Whether or not we perceive it is a 
different question. 

Bob S


> On Sep 8, 2021, at 13:20 , Brian Milby via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Ah, the problem with calling things “facts” where the data isn’t actually 
> knowable.  The number of hairs on my head is a fact but not one that can be 
> accurately known.  Kind of like the number of people who watched the Super 
> Bowl.  In that context, true fact makes sense (also “cold hard fact”).  While 
> it should be redundant, it emphasizes that the data being referenced is an 
> actual fact and not an assumed fact.
> 
> My dad always was clear that “couple” of minutes was 2 and a few was 3.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 8, 2021, at 3:55 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means 
>> two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in 
>> that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded 
>> him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped.
>> 
>> Addendum: he claims there are "true facts." I say that is redundant, that a 
>> fact is by definition true, and he's implying there are false facts (or as 
>> we say in the US, "alternative facts.") This has been going on for years. 
>> It's a friendly, amusing, kind of false disagreement. Then one day we just 
>> looked it up in the dictionary and...a fact can either be a true bit of 
>> information, or a generic datum.
>> 
>> And that spoiled all the fun.
>> 
>> On 9/8/21 6:14 AM, Keith Martin via use-livecode wrote:
> On Sep 7, 2021, at 11:04 PM, Martin Koob via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
 
 My wife and I have an ongoing disagreement about the term 'couple of’ in 
 terms of counting.  I say it means around 2 or 3ish.  She says it means 2. 
 Further she says if you wanted to say 3 or 4 you would say ‘a few’.
>>> I'm the kind of person that distinguishes between 'like' (exclusive: 
>>> similar to but not) and 'such as' (inclusive: similar to and part of the 
>>> comparison set), so this is coming from a position of pedantry, but that's 
>>> because I am a writer...
>>> Strictly speaking, 'a couple' means two, no more and no less. In casual use 
>>> (when counting, not when referring to relationship partnerships) it isn't 
>>> unusual for it to be used in place of 'a few' and possibly mean three or 
>>> even four, but it's not technically *correct.*
>>> I too hope your wife's logic is what holds true!
>>> :)
>>> k
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
>> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>> 
>> 
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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?


On 9/8/21 3:20 PM, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:

Ah, the problem with calling things “facts” where the data isn’t actually 
knowable.  The number of hairs on my head is a fact but not one that can be 
accurately known.  Kind of like the number of people who watched the Super 
Bowl.  In that context, true fact makes sense (also “cold hard fact”).  While 
it should be redundant, it emphasizes that the data being referenced is an 
actual fact and not an assumed fact.


Spoilsport. :P

--
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HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

Okay I told you don't make me come over there and separate you two! ;-) 

This actually touches on the arbitrary nature of language. A word only means 
something because all the parties who want to use that word, agree (whether or 
not they think they do) that this word will mean this thing. If over time, a 
culture begins to use the word in a different way or differently in other 
contexts, it's not because of anything intrinsic to the word, but simply 
because the parties or societies decided (whether or not they think they have) 
to "renegotiate". 

Therefore your argument (Jacque) has no meaning. Sorry to disappoint you. 

Bob S

> On Sep 8, 2021, at 14:43 , Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Heh - I think you are both right in different contexts...
> 
> For sure, when used as a noun in isolation (a couple) it refers to two - 
> specifically either a pair of parallel but opposing forces (physics) or a 
> pair of (usually romantically) involved individuals (some might wryly suggest 
> that these two things are much the same ;) ).
> 
> I’d say though that when applied to another noun, it generally implies ‘some’ 
> - not two specifically, or even three - but a definitely small number.

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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

Then what does a few mean? 

Bob S


> On Sep 8, 2021, at 14:49 , matthias rebbe via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> How lucky we Germans are with having to write some words in capitals. ;) 
> 
> 'ein Paar' (a couple)  means 2
> 'ein Paar Schuhe' means a pair of shoes
> 
> 'ein paar' means two or three or somewhere in the range.
> 'ein paar Schuhe' means 2 or 3 or somewhere in the range shoes 
> 
> 
> In the English lessons in school  we learned  that for example  'a couple of 
> days' meant 2 or 3 or somewhere in that range.
> And when we used  'couple' as a noun then it was meant as  2 that belong to 
> each other or however you would call that.
> e.g. married couple, bird couple. That's the way i use 'couple" now for more 
> than 40 years. 
> 
> Don't tell me that i was wrong more than 40 years. ;) 
> 
> 
>> Am 08.09.2021 um 21:54 schrieb J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>> :
>> 
>> My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means 
>> two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in 
>> that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded 
>> him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped.


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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

2021-09-08 Thread Martin Koob via use-livecode

This reminds me of the counting instructions for the Holy Hand Grenade of 
Antioch.
https://montypython.fandom.com/wiki/Holy_Hand_Grenade_of_Antioch

'First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no 
more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of 
the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, 
excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number 
three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand 
Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff 
it.' 

So could this also match the definition of ‘couple’ for counting things — 3 , 2 
if on the way to 3, but 1 one is not mentioned and 5 is right out.

Martin

> On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:43 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Heh - I think you are both right in different contexts...
> 
> For sure, when used as a noun in isolation (a couple) it refers to two - 
> specifically either a pair of parallel but opposing forces (physics) or a 
> pair of (usually romantically) involved individuals (some might wryly suggest 
> that these two things are much the same ;) ).
> 
> I’d say though that when applied to another noun, it generally implies ‘some’ 
> - not two specifically, or even three - but a definitely small number.
> 
> In fact I think it’s slightly more subtle than that in general usage though...
> 
> If applied to something which can be counted discretely (eg facts) - ‘a 
> couple of’ implies a likelihood it was almost certainly two, but maybe three 
> (as the exact number wasn’t really important). 
> 
> However, if applied to something which is continuous (and perhaps more 
> importantly something humans are not that great at accurately estimating - eg 
> time) it rarely means two exactly... 
> 
> After all when was the last time you said to someone - ‘I’ll just be a couple 
> of minutes’ and were, indeed, exactly 120 seconds? ;) 

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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

2021-09-08 Thread Alex Tweedly via use-livecode


On 2021-09-08 01:33, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote:


But
 put [1, 2, 3 ] into tVar2
isn't clear to me. If it was in Python it would be a list - but LC
doesn't have 'lists'.

Is it equivalent to
   put true into tVar2[1]
   put true into tVar2[2]
   put true into tVar2[3]    ??



and then On 08/09/2021 08:50, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

Yes.


But I'm not sure he meant it :-)

He went on to say

A sequence in LC is a numerically-keyed array where the keys range 
from 1...the number of elements.


Admittedly they are (currently) still implemented as a 'normal' array 
internally, but they do have different functionality in `repeat for 
each element` which iterates in numeric order, and not hash order.


This example gives a sequence - but only, basically, by coincidence. A 
better example would be


   put [4, 5, 7] into tV

Using the 'expansion' I used before - that would be equivalent to
   put true into tV[4]
   put true into tV[5]
   put true into tV[7]

not a sequence - and wouldn't preserve ordering in subsequent "repeat 
for each element".


I think that

   put [4, 5, 7] into tV

is actually equivalent to
   put 4 into tV[1]
   put 5 into tV[2]
   put 7 into tV[3]

But I'm happy to wait and try it out in the DP.

Alex.



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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

2021-09-08 Thread Mark Wieder via use-livecode


On 9/8/21 3:03 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:


This actually touches on the arbitrary nature of language. A word only means something 
because all the parties who want to use that word, agree (whether or not they think they 
do) that this word will mean this thing. If over time, a culture begins to use the word 
in a different way or differently in other contexts, it's not because of anything 
intrinsic to the word, but simply because the parties or societies decided (whether or 
not they think they have) to "renegotiate".


+1

There is, I think, a spectrum somewhat as follows:

none
one
a couple
very few
a few
several
many
very many (a great many)
a lot
too many
all the

and the boundaries within the spectrum are squishy

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Hi, I'm back for more fish - and a malware query

2021-09-08 Thread Neville Smythe via use-livecode

OK, Bob S, so I have jumped through the small hoop and turned through 180 
degrees. And I’m impressed even if you were not: that is to say, I am really 
impressed with the generosity and goodwill of the great people at LC.

Many thanks to those who urged me contact Heather and Kevin about  licensing, 
and I heartily echo the sentiment of Erik on the integrity of the company.

And now back to business: the very first compilation of a Windows standalone 
with my brand spanking new 9.6.4 provokes a malware alarm for the Trojan 
Sabsik.TE.A!ml on a Windows 10 machine.

I think it almost certain this is a false positive. My Mac reportedly cannot 
run or spread this particular malware, and I’m pretty sure the only Windows 
file on my Mac which could contain it (or rather the code sequence which 
triggers the alert) would be the Windows engine in LC9.6.4. Just to be sure, 
because no-one want to take chances with ransomware … has anyone seen or heard 
reports like this ?

Neville Smythe
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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

2021-09-08 Thread Alex Tweedly via use-livecode



On 08/09/2021 22:43, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

However, if applied to something which is continuous (and perhaps more 
importantly something humans are not that great at accurately estimating - eg 
time) it rarely means two exactly...

After all when was the last time you said to someone - ‘I’ll just be a couple 
of minutes’ and were, indeed, exactly 120 seconds? ;)

If I say that, I'm more likely to actually be 120 minutes than 120 
seconds :-)


Alex.


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Re: Send a table in an email.

Hi Rick

Because, as stated before, you can’t select the text and paste it into a 
spreadsheet. 

Thanks though. 

Sean



> On 8 Sep 2021, at 23:19, Rick Harrison via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Sean,
> 
> If you just want to show the table in an email why not just send
> an image of it? Create a screenshot of the table and email it.
> Are you trying to send just one or a lot of them over a period of time?
> 
> Rick
> 
>> On Sep 8, 2021, at 3:42 PM, Pi Digital via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I just wanted a simple way of showing it without all the extra coding 
>> rigmarole. Especially in html. 
>> 
>> Sean Cole
>> Pi Digital Productions Ltd
>> 
>> eMail Ts & Cs
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: LiveCode Community - anyone up for maintaining the community edition?

2021-09-08 Thread Paul McClernan via use-livecode

Well I've wanted to contribute more, and have as time allowed. I first had
to learn how to use GitHub before I could even start to contribute, and did
appreciate the hand holding I got from the team along the way. But
understand that LC needs to be very careful and methodical about what they
merged into their main repo, this made even contributing simple spelling
fixes to the docs (which also requires some understanding of .markdown used
in .lcdoc) a tedious task. Additionally,in don't think it was clear to a
some users a lot of the IDE/libs are bootstrapped and so one only needs an
understanding of LCScript to contribute changes.

Contributing to the engine code, however, is not the only way Community
could contribute. I jumped on the chance to extend the possibilities by
learning LCBuilder once that became available, made all of my LCB work open
source in Hope's of encouraging and helping others to get over the learning
curve inherent in that. Community freely supporting other members of the
community should also be valued.

I will likely get on board LC10 train at some point, when I know more about
the improvements being made to it, beyond syntax changea and a faster HTML5
engine. But I also plan to try to improve and maintain my own fork of LCC,
and I hope others will explore the many possibilities with that as well.

I've already fixed a bug that I reported back in April in my fork(s) and
added a link to my fix to that bugzilla report.

https://github.com/PaulMcClernan/LiveCodeCommunity-IDE-DontPanicEdition

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 7:56 AM David Bovill via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Here are my thoughts on this - and a request.
>
> Yes - it’s not a surprising move by Livecode Ltd - they were clearly
> struggling supporting the community aspect and taking the language to the
> next level and they need more revenue to do that.
>
> The question is (for my part at least) - what to do about this. Personally
> I have never seen a future for a closed source language, and the projects I
> work on will not fund. Projects developed in closed source - especially by
> a small company. So I have a choice, switch language, or look to continue
> with developing with the community edition and help build an open source
> community around that. The former (switching languages) is relatively easy,
> the latter a lot of work.
>
> I’m happy to have a company like Livecode Ltd create closed source
> products  that I can use, so how to have both an open source language, and
> the ability to work with closed source products developed by Livecode Ltd?
> As I see it the only option is for those interested in the community to
> take control and responsibility for the core language.
>
> There are a number of options with regard to future language development,
> that would put the language on an even par with other open source
> languages, and there are also new ways to finance such initiatives. It
> would be valuable to get together as a community and discuss those.
>
> How about having a community conference to look at what is possible? We
> can do this online and showcase new and existing open source projects and
> discuss the opportunities this new environment presents?
>
>
> Schedule a call with me
> On 1 Sep 2021, 12:18 +0100, David V Glasgow via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> >
> >
> > > On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:26 am, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > There you had a group of programmers who supposedly loved what
> > > HyperCard could do, but they only loved that concept as a historical
> > > artefact, not as a tool available to people now.
> >
> > Abso-frogging-lutely.
> >
> > The really interesting questions are “why?" and “Is there anything we
> could do about it?”
> >
> >
> > Best Wishes,
> >
> > David Glasgow
> > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist
> > Carlton Glasgow Partnership
> > Director, Child & Family Training, York
> > Honorary Professor
> > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit
> > Nottingham Trent University
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: AW: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

Hi Bernard,


I didn't make myself clear - it can work for hours with no slowdown at
13,000 lines on an older computer there is just no pattern.

Lagi

On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 18:54, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I pasted 8000 lines of text into Script Editor on Windows (just 1 large
> block comment).  On typing chars take a couple of seconds to appear once
> there is that much text.  Cut it down to 800 lines and it's fine.
>
> With 8000 lines switch off "live errors" and the slow typing issue is gone.
>
> I've asked Erik to try with 8000 line comment on his 32GB rig, since he has
> no problems. He might have to increase the size of the text in that field
> to 12000 or 16000, but I suspect eventually he too will get your treacle.
>
> On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:52 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > When it works it works - I cut the main stack to 7000 lines and still get
> > the slowdown.
> >
> > When it slows down its the same treacle/quicksand/molasses whether the
> > machine is a 10th gen with 16g or an 8gig pentium - when its fast its
> fast
> > on both - no consistency
> >
> > Lagi
> >
> >
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-- 
KIndest Regards Lagi
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Re: SE Show Globals inverted

2021-09-08 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode

Yes. I've also seen crashes on non-conditional breakpoints.  I literally
save before any test run. Then at suitable junctures I intercept savestack
(+ controlKey down) to write the stack out as Json + script only stack and
commit it all to my VCS.

But again I haven't (yet) noticed a pattern with these things. I did notice
that the remote debugger prevents all IDE stack breakpoints from working
until the app is closed on a test device.  For a long time I couldn't
understand why breakpoints had stopped working and why no-one else was
having this problem.  Then finally it struck me that there may only be a
small group of us using remote debugger (+ Android).

On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 8:50 PM Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> And while we're confessing laziness, my more shameful confession is about
> a
> crashing bug when using conditional breakpoints. I've become used to being
> very wary as soon as I start using these, and saving very often. Have
> others
> seen this issue?
>
>
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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

2021-09-08 Thread Mark Wieder via use-livecode


On 9/8/21 4:37 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote:


I think that

    put [4, 5, 7] into tV

is actually equivalent to
    put 4 into tV[1]
    put 5 into tV[2]
    put 7 into tV[3]

But I'm happy to wait and try it out in the DP.


I would certainly be happier if that turns out to be the case.
Otherwise unraveling the hash would be a bit strange.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

Heh - I think you are both right in different contexts...

For sure, when used as a noun in isolation (a couple) it refers to two - 
specifically either a pair of parallel but opposing forces (physics) or a pair 
of (usually romantically) involved individuals (some might wryly suggest that 
these two things are much the same ;) ).

I’d say though that when applied to another noun, it generally implies ‘some’ - 
not two specifically, or even three - but a definitely small number.

In fact I think it’s slightly more subtle than that in general usage though...

If applied to something which can be counted discretely (eg facts) - ‘a couple 
of’ implies a likelihood it was almost certainly two, but maybe three (as the 
exact number wasn’t really important). 

However, if applied to something which is continuous (and perhaps more 
importantly something humans are not that great at accurately estimating - eg 
time) it rarely means two exactly... 

After all when was the last time you said to someone - ‘I’ll just be a couple 
of minutes’ and were, indeed, exactly 120 seconds? ;) 

Sent from my iPhone

> On 8 Sep 2021, at 20:55, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means 
> two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in 
> that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded 
> him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped.
> 
> Addendum: he claims there are "true facts." I say that is redundant, that a 
> fact is by definition true, and he's implying there are false facts (or as we 
> say in the US, "alternative facts.") This has been going on for years. It's a 
> friendly, amusing, kind of false disagreement. Then one day we just looked it 
> up in the dictionary and...a fact can either be a true bit of information, or 
> a generic datum.
> 
> And that spoiled all the fun.
> 
> On 9/8/21 6:14 AM, Keith Martin via use-livecode wrote:
 On Sep 7, 2021, at 11:04 PM, Martin Koob via use-livecode 
  wrote:
>>> 
>>> My wife and I have an ongoing disagreement about the term 'couple of’ in 
>>> terms of counting.  I say it means around 2 or 3ish.  She says it means 2. 
>>> Further she says if you wanted to say 3 or 4 you would say ‘a few’.
>> I'm the kind of person that distinguishes between 'like' (exclusive: similar 
>> to but not) and 'such as' (inclusive: similar to and part of the comparison 
>> set), so this is coming from a position of pedantry, but that's because I am 
>> a writer...
>> Strictly speaking, 'a couple' means two, no more and no less. In casual use 
>> (when counting, not when referring to relationship partnerships) it isn't 
>> unusual for it to be used in place of 'a few' and possibly mean three or 
>> even four, but it's not technically *correct.*
>> I too hope your wife's logic is what holds true!
>> :)
>> k
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> 
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Re: Hi, I'm back for more fish - and a malware query

I’ve seen false positives just by downloading new signature files, but not 
specifically for Livecode, but I seem to recall someone on this list having an 
issue. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 8, 2021, at 17:29, Neville Smythe via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> OK, Bob S, so I have jumped through the small hoop and turned through 180 
> degrees. And I’m impressed even if you were not: that is to say, I am really 
> impressed with the generosity and goodwill of the great people at LC.
> 
> Many thanks to those who urged me contact Heather and Kevin about  licensing, 
> and I heartily echo the sentiment of Erik on the integrity of the company.
> 
> And now back to business: the very first compilation of a Windows standalone 
> with my brand spanking new 9.6.4 provokes a malware alarm for the Trojan 
> Sabsik.TE.A!ml on a Windows 10 machine.
> 
> I think it almost certain this is a false positive. My Mac reportedly cannot 
> run or spread this particular malware, and I’m pretty sure the only Windows 
> file on my Mac which could contain it (or rather the code sequence which 
> triggers the alert) would be the Windows engine in LC9.6.4. Just to be sure, 
> because no-one want to take chances with ransomware … has anyone seen or 
> heard reports like this ?
> 
> Neville Smythe
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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

2021-09-08 Thread Jim Lambert via use-livecode

> Matthias wrote:
> 
> 'ein paar' means two or three or somewhere in the range.

Ich kann Deutsch. Aber nur ein paar Wörter.

Jim Lambert
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Re: Send a table in an email.

Thanks Mark
I will take a look

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Productions Ltd

eMail Ts & Cs


> On 8 Sep 2021, at 16:28, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 2021-09-08 11:02, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
>> Hi all
>> I'm trying to use the MIME encoder to send an email with a table in the
>> body. I have a field that has both plain text and a few lines that are
>> displayed as a table in the middle of it. I basically just turn on the v
>> and h lines and set tab stops.
>> mimeEncodeField... puts the text into the email body but does not seem to
>> format out the table. Is there a way to get it to recognise the table or
>> some other way of getting the table to display correctly in the email?
> 
> So the mime library call you are talking about is super simple - it just 
> dumps the htmlText of the field into the HTML (so is fine as long as its just 
> simple formatting involved), and then looks for inline images and attaches 
> them as other parts.
> 
> The code is in the mime extension (com.livecode.library.mime) and the handler 
> in question (mimeEncodeFieldAsMIMEMultipartDocument) is built out of other 
> public mime library APIs... It would be relatively straightforward to create 
> your own version and customize the HTML output to your needs.
> 
> Warmest Regards,
> 
> Mark.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
> 
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Re: SE Show Globals inverted

I've not knowingly seen this issue. But while we're discussing viewing global 
variables, I still mourn this regression introduced in LC 8, when the message 
box stopped allowing inspection of arrays in global variables (the SE still does):

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17478

And while we're confessing laziness, my more shameful confession is about a 
crashing bug when using conditional breakpoints. I've become used to being 
very wary as soon as I start using these, and saving very often. Have others 
seen this issue?


Ben

On 08/09/2021 18:31, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
This has been going on for years but I never reported it because... lazy. For 
me, it happens when I'm stepping through a handler and I change or query 
something in the message box.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On September 8, 2021 11:25:24 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
 wrote:


Here's a new one. I've noticed this before, that globals were appearing when 
show globals checkbox was not hilited. I just noticed that during this 
condition, checking the show globals checkbox hides the globals! LOL! I'll 
toss up a bug report later.


Bob S


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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

2021-09-08 Thread matthias rebbe via use-livecode

More than three. 



> Am 09.09.2021 um 00:04 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> Then what does a few mean? 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Sep 8, 2021, at 14:49 , matthias rebbe via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> How lucky we Germans are with having to write some words in capitals. ;) 
>> 
>> 'ein Paar' (a couple)  means 2
>> 'ein Paar Schuhe' means a pair of shoes
>> 
>> 'ein paar' means two or three or somewhere in the range.
>> 'ein paar Schuhe' means 2 or 3 or somewhere in the range shoes 
>> 
>> 
>> In the English lessons in school  we learned  that for example  'a couple of 
>> days' meant 2 or 3 or somewhere in that range.
>> And when we used  'couple' as a noun then it was meant as  2 that belong to 
>> each other or however you would call that.
>> e.g. married couple, bird couple. That's the way i use 'couple" now for more 
>> than 40 years. 
>> 
>> Don't tell me that i was wrong more than 40 years. ;) 
>> 
>> 
>>> Am 08.09.2021 um 21:54 schrieb J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>>> :
>>> 
>>> My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means 
>>> two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in 
>>> that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded 
>>> him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped.
> 
> 
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Re: Send a table in an email.

Hi Sean,

If you just want to show the table in an email why not just send
an image of it? Create a screenshot of the table and email it.
Are you trying to send just one or a lot of them over a period of time?

Rick

> On Sep 8, 2021, at 3:42 PM, Pi Digital via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I just wanted a simple way of showing it without all the extra coding 
> rigmarole. Especially in html. 
> 
> Sean Cole
> Pi Digital Productions Ltd
> 
> eMail Ts & Cs
> 

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Re: Send a table in an email.

I just wanted a simple way of showing it without all the extra coding 
rigmarole. Especially in html. 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Productions Ltd

eMail Ts & Cs


> On 8 Sep 2021, at 17:41, Rick Harrison via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Sean,
> 
> So you want the receiver of your emailed table to be able to modify the data 
> in it.
> 
> I would make it an HTML email so you can allow the user to enter the data
> directly into your server database table field.
> 
> That’s if I am understanding you correctly here.
> 
> Rick
> 
> 
>> On Sep 8, 2021, at 11:05 AM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Rick,
>> 
>> It's not strictly what I was asking as I am talking about the mimeEncode
>> library. Plus it's a file that is then not easily selectable directly from
>> the email. I just want to be able to display a small table of data in the
>> email that is easily readable with a small footprint and using specifically
>> the mimeEncodeFieldAsMIMEMultipartDocument(pField).
>> 
>> Sean
> 
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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means two. I said yes, but
colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in that range." We almost started a longer
discussion about it, but I reminded him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we
both stopped.

Addendum: he claims there are "true facts." I say that is redundant, that a fact is by
definition true, and he's implying there are false facts (or as we say in the US, "alternative
facts.") This has been going on for years. It's a friendly, amusing, kind of false
disagreement. Then one day we just looked it up in the dictionary and...a fact can either be a
true bit of information, or a generic datum.

And that spoiled all the fun.

On 9/8/21 6:14 AM, Keith Martin via use-livecode wrote:

On Sep 7, 2021, at 11:04 PM, Martin Koob via use-livecode
wrote:

My wife and I have an ongoing disagreement about the term 'couple of’ in terms
of counting. I say it means around 2 or 3ish. She says it means 2. Further
she says if you wanted to say 3 or 4 you would say ‘a few’.

I'm the kind of person that distinguishes between 'like' (exclusive: similar to
but not) and 'such as' (inclusive: similar to and part of the comparison set),
so this is coming from a position of pedantry, but that's because I am a
writer...

Strictly speaking, 'a couple' means two, no more and no less. In casual use
(when counting, not when referring to relationship partnerships) it isn't
unusual for it to be used in place of 'a few' and possibly mean three or even
four, but it's not technically *correct.*

I too hope your wife's logic is what holds true!

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

2021-09-08 Thread Martin Koob via use-livecode

Hi Jacqueline

That’s funny, I was assuming that it was a male / female language usage issue.  
It would be odd if coders saw ‘couple’ not being an arbitrary number but one 
with some flexibility and not coders not.  (Although if your husband is also a 
coder that would blow that theory out of the water. )  I would think the 
opposite would be true.  The coders I would think would think arbitrary values 
instead of fuzzy variables.

Our disagreement over “couple” is the same as yours over “facts”… friendly, 
amusing and kind of yet not totally false.  eg.  asked to chop up a couple of 
carrots I will ask how many exactly. "Two" is the reply….. and then the 
“argument” starts.

Sad to hear that looking up the facts about “facts" ruined your ongoing 
argument about “facts”.  But maybe there are alternative facts that state 
otherwise and you can revive the discussion as to the meaning of “facts”.

Martin

> On Sep 8, 2021, at 3:54 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means 
> two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in 
> that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded 
> him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped.
> 
> Addendum: he claims there are "true facts." I say that is redundant, that a 
> fact is by definition true, and he's implying there are false facts (or as we 
> say in the US, "alternative facts.") This has been going on for years. It's a 
> friendly, amusing, kind of false disagreement. Then one day we just looked it 
> up in the dictionary and...a fact can either be a true bit of information, or 
> a generic datum.
> 
> And that spoiled all the fun.
> 
> On 9/8/21 6:14 AM, Keith Martin via use-livecode wrote:
>>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 11:04 PM, Martin Koob via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> My wife and I have an ongoing disagreement about the term 'couple of’ in 
>>> terms of counting.  I say it means around 2 or 3ish.  She says it means 2. 
>>> Further she says if you wanted to say 3 or 4 you would say ‘a few’.
>> I'm the kind of person that distinguishes between 'like' (exclusive: similar 
>> to but not) and 'such as' (inclusive: similar to and part of the comparison 
>> set), so this is coming from a position of pedantry, but that's because I am 
>> a writer...
>> Strictly speaking, 'a couple' means two, no more and no less. In casual use 
>> (when counting, not when referring to relationship partnerships) it isn't 
>> unusual for it to be used in place of 'a few' and possibly mean three or 
>> even four, but it's not technically *correct.*
>> I too hope your wife's logic is what holds true!
>> :)
>> k
> 

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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

2021-09-08 Thread Mark Wieder via use-livecode


On 9/8/21 1:20 PM, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:

Ah, the problem with calling things “facts” where the data isn’t actually 
knowable.  The number of hairs on my head is a fact but not one that can be 
accurately known.  Kind of like the number of people who watched the Super 
Bowl.  In that context, true fact makes sense (also “cold hard fact”).  While 
it should be redundant, it emphasizes that the data being referenced is an 
actual fact and not an assumed fact.


IMO a fact is true. There are no false facts.
That being said, a fact is true within its domain space.
'Atoms are indivisible' was a fact until it wasn't.
That doesn't make it a false fact, just a false statement.
At the time of a fact's creation/utterance/whatever it's true, otherwise 
it's not a fact.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Send a table in an email.

Hi Sean,

Why don’t you just email them a spreadsheet or a .csv file,
let them open it. and they can copy and paste whatever they want
into their own spreadsheet?

Rick


> On Sep 8, 2021, at 10:43 PM, Pi Digital via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Rick
> 
> Because, as stated before, you can’t select the text and paste it into a 
> spreadsheet. 
> 
> Thanks though. 
> 
> Sean

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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?


On 2021-09-09 00:37, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote:

On 2021-09-08 01:33, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote:


But
 put [1, 2, 3 ] into tVar2
isn't clear to me. If it was in Python it would be a list - but LC
doesn't have 'lists'.

Is it equivalent to
   put true into tVar2[1]
   put true into tVar2[2]
   put true into tVar2[3]    ??



and then On 08/09/2021 08:50, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

Yes.


But I'm not sure he meant it :-)


No - 'he' didn't mean that ;)

I failed to look properly at the LHS of the puts in your example :D

  put [1, 2, 3] into tVar2

is equivalent to:

  put 1 into tVar2[1]
  put 2 into tVar2[2]
  put 3 into tVar2[3]

Warmest Regards,

Mark.



--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?


On 2021-09-08 01:33, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote:

But
 put [1, 2, 3 ] into tVar2
isn't clear to me. If it was in Python it would be a list - but LC
doesn't have 'lists'.

Is it equivalent to
   put true into tVar2[1]
   put true into tVar2[2]
   put true into tVar2[3]    ??


Yes.

A sequence in LC is a numerically-keyed array where the keys range from 
1...the number of elements.


Admittedly they are (currently) still implemented as a 'normal' array 
internally, but they do have different functionality in `repeat for each 
element` which iterates in numeric order, and not hash order.



Why can't I say
    put { myvar: "first", anothervar: tWhatever } into tVar2   ?


So if one treats array literals as an equivalent to an ordered sequence 
of put statements (which is the canonical interpretation really!) then 
there is, in principal, no problem with allowing non-constant 
expressions for both key and value.


Certainly non-constant value expressions are no problem at all, and 
would be included in the initial implementation... I'm not averse to 
non-constant key expressions either really, I'm just a little skittish 
over the resulting reservation of ':' (which is probably fine), and the 
interplay with variables and unquoted-literals (more in terms of 
difference that might occur between what the engine thinks something 
means and what the writer intended).



But I was disappointed to not see my two biggest 'constant' wishes

1. multi-line constants e.g. amongst other ways, Python's

put """line 1

line 2

line 3""" into tVar


I'm not averse to the idea of multi-line literals - although 
constant-folding does go a long way to assuage the problems they solve 
in many cases.


e.g. You can use format("dfsdf\ndfgdfg") for short strings with newlines 
in, and any chained sequence of concatenations of constants will be 
evaluated at compile time.


The main issue here is the effect on tooling really - any code which 
processes LiveCode Script in any way would need to change to take them 
into account. This not only includes syntax highlighters and editors but 
any code which groks script for other reason. This means that what might 
be a relatively simple change to the engine, actually introduces a 
ripple effect where the whole implementation burden is a great deal 
higher.


[ I'd point out that I don't think there is a single piece of tooling in 
existence which actually fully supports the *current* lexical structure 
of LiveCode - which has not actually changed since day dot - including 
the existing Script Editor ]


That being said, in terms of what multiline syntax I'd propose, if it 
were to be added - I'd be in favour of Swift's model. Most other 
languages have added multiline strings with no thought to code 
structure, however the Swift team really have:


   var foo = """
 Line 1 - spaces before stripped
 Line 2 - spaces before stripped
 """

There are two simple rules at play here.

The first is that no string content is present on the lines containing 
""" - i.e. the string content starts on the line after the opening """, 
and the string content ends on the line before the closing """.


The second is that whitespace is stripped from each line of the string 
content based on the whitespace before the final """. i.e. If the """ is 
indented by 3 spaces, then 3 spaces are removed from all lines of the 
content.


This means indenting of such literals is no different from any other 
construct - and is merely predicated on identifying the lines in such a 
literal as continuations (i.e. each line is an extension to the last).



2. global constants. Most compiled languages will allow an 'include'
file which can specify constants, which you can then rely on to be
defined properly (and the same) everywhere. So that's probably too
much at odds with LC's model - but could be handled by 'protect'
global variables (or, I'm sure, another 10 ways that Mark W. could
think of).


So if by 'global constant' you mean being able to define a token which 
means the same thing in all scripts - then yes, that does not really fit 
at all as it breaks the logical independence of all scripts in terms of 
what tokens mean.


Put another way, all scripts would have to be recompiled when a script 
defines such a thing, which would then potentially change the meaning of 
any script if it happens to internally use said token for something else 
(in the worse case scripts which did not have syntax errors before might 
do so after). This is why you have to declare global variables in all 
scripts which use them.


The request for 'global constants' comes up repeatedly, but I don't 
really recall anyone proposing a single use-case which couldn't be 
solved in a 'better' (relative to xTalkiness existing featurs) way :D


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

2021-09-08 Thread Richmond via use-livecode

It does look exciting, but, as usual, the proof of the pudding is in the 
eating and I am sure,
initially at least, there will be a few bits of nutshell left in there 
for us to jag our teeth on:
but that's to be expected, and our job is to report back any nutty bits 
to LiveCode centre.


My thoughts are, as usual, retro, insofar as I hope the syntax changes 
while being clever
will not mean that stacks written WITHOUT those new syntactic features 
will not be openable and

usuable by earlier versions of LiveCode.

On 8.09.21 3:33, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote:


On 07/09/2021 23:01, Martin Koob via use-livecode wrote:

Hi all.

There has been lots of discussion on the list and forums about the 
one part of Kevin’s announcement regarding the changes in licensing 
but nothing that I see on the other major part of the announcement — 
the new features coming in LiveCode 10.
Good idea for discussion - but we may be shooting in the dark, until 
either the DP or another sneak peek.

New Syntax in 10
Array Literals


Not sure I fully understand this one yet.
    put { "a": "b", "c":"d" } into tVar
seems clear - and is explained with an equivalent in existing code.

But
 put [1, 2, 3 ] into tVar2
isn't clear to me. If it was in Python it would be a list - but LC 
doesn't have 'lists'.


Is it equivalent to
   put true into tVar2[1]
   put true into tVar2[2]
   put true into tVar2[3]    ??

Or if not, then what is it equivalent to ?

But generally, I like the idea. Though it does just make me want to 
ask for more :-)


Why just constants ?

Why can't I say
    put { myvar: "first", anothervar: tWhatever } into tVar2   ?


Constant Expressions


About time. I trust you can actually do
   constant Kmin=100, kMax=200, kMid=(kmin+kmax)/2


Static Switch Optimization


Yes - good thing.I have a bunch of code (which I might not want to 
show in public), where this will make a significant difference. I was 
worried by the statement that "... recognises cases where all the 
cases are constant", but realised that you can always cover the other 
cases by putting them into a separate switch/if-then-else in the 
'default' case.




Constant folding


I confess I assumed that was already there :-)

But I was disappointed to not see my two biggest 'constant' wishes

1. multi-line constants e.g. amongst other ways, Python's

put """line 1

line 2

line 3""" into tVar

2. global constants. Most compiled languages will allow an 'include' 
file which can specify constants, which you can then rely on to be 
defined properly (and the same) everywhere. So that's probably too 
much at odds with LC's model - but could be handled by 'protect' 
global variables (or, I'm sure, another 10 ways that Mark W. could 
think of).



Tail Expressions


I just don't understand this one, so no comment.

Anyway I am excited to see the first DP which is promised in the next 
couple of weeks.  My wife and I have an ongoing disagreement about 
the term 'couple of’ in terms of counting.  I say it means around 2 
or 3ish.  She says it means 2. Further she says if you wanted to say 
3 or 4 you would say ‘a few’.  So in this case I am hoping she is 
right and I am wrong and we do get the new DP in a couple of weeks 
and not a few weeks. :-)


That sounds like a 'couple' discussion I wouldn't want to get in the 
middle of. Even worse than whether a sign on the freeway/motorway 
saying "xyz next exit" means the immediately coming exit (i.e. 'this 
exit' or 'next exit'), or the following one. Caused me no end of 
trouble when I first moved to the US :-)


Alex.

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Send a table in an email.

2021-09-08 Thread Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode

Hi all

I'm trying to use the MIME encoder to send an email with a table in the
body. I have a field that has both plain text and a few lines that are
displayed as a table in the middle of it. I basically just turn on the v
and h lines and set tab stops.

mimeEncodeField... puts the text into the email body but does not seem to
format out the table. Is there a way to get it to recognise the table or
some other way of getting the table to display correctly in the email?

Thanks
Sean
-- 
Pi Digital
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Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

2021-09-08 Thread Andre Garzia via use-livecode

I mean the script editor mostly but also the rest of the ide has a bit of jank. 
Laying out interfaces on Windows has been worse than doing it on a Mac. The 
worse offender is the script editor though.

> On 7 Sep 2021, at 23:28, Scott Morrow via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Andre, when you say “so bad” do you mean the script editor or… ?
> --
> Scott Morrow
> 
>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it caused me to 
>> switch back to a mac...
> 
> 
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Warning in standalone builder

2021-09-08 Thread Tiemo via use-livecode

Hi there,

 

I get a warning when building a standalone on Win: "Windows x86-32, external
No externals.txt config file found for enhancedwin"

I am using the enhancedwin dll and have put the externals.txt into the
following folders:

*   \MyDevelopingFolder\Externals\
*   C:\Users\myAccount\Documents\My LiveCode\Externals\

Where else is the LC standalone builder missing this externals.txt file?

 

Thanks

Tiemo

 

 

 

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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

2021-09-08 Thread Andre Garzia via use-livecode

Hi Alex,

> On 8 Sep 2021, at 01:33, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I just don't understand this one, so no comment.

As I understand, this is LC version of the “spread operator”.  It allows you to 
spread the elements of an array as the arguments to a handler.

The code:

  put “an...@example.com ” into tDataA[1]
  put “Andre Garzia” into tDataA[2]

  sendEmail …tDataA

Is syntactically equivalent to:

  put “an...@example.com ” into tDataA[1]
  put “Andre Garzia” into tDataA[2]

  sendEmail tDataA[1], tDataA[2]

Which means that you can code the “sendEmail” command to have two string 
arguments instead of an array, as shown below:

  command sendEmail pEmail, pFullName
// send your email
  end sendEmail

The spread operator will pass every array element as an argument to the 
handler. 

It would be beneficial if this feature would also come paired a “rest operator” 
that collected extra arguments in an array, so that we could declare the 
“sendEmail” handler as

  command sendEmail pEmail, pFullName, …pMoreArgumentsA
// stuff
  end sendEmail

This way, if the call uses an array that contains more than two elements, the 
remaining parameters are collected in the final “pMoreArgumentsA” array. That 
if what I would like to have, LC didn’t say anything about this but it is very 
common in other languages to implement both operators at the same time.

In the case of LiveCode there is an alternative though. We can use “paramCount” 
and “param()” to grab the extra parameters, but that requires us coding it 
while something like a “rest operator” do that for us automatically.
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Re: Text encoding: summary of results and times.




On 07/09/2021 17:22, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

This makes sense to me (I think) because if I am not mistaken, UTF16 is 
Unicode, and UTF8 is simple ASCII. The slowdown from 6.7 to 7.0 was precicely 
the support for Unicode text. Someone will correct me if I am wrong about this. 
As a hobbyist, I try and stay away from localization issues. But I am 
interested in the idea that all text incoming should be text decoded and 
outgoing the inverse. (Did I get that right??)


Cue scenes of strong men reeling back in horror, ladies fainting, etc (Bateman 
cartoons, for those of a British persuasion).


UTF16 is not Unicode, UTF8 is not simple ASCII, and I'm not even sure that the 
slowdown from 6.7 to 7.0 was precisely the support for Unicode text, though 
I'm not sure about that.


Unicode and ASCII are both conventions that assign character interpretations 
to numbers. ASCII assigned approximately 94 character interpretations to the 
numbers 32-126 (plus a few control interpretations to some other numbers). 
WindowsLatin1, MacRoman, ISO-8859-1 etc all did the same but to a wider range 
of numbers up to 255. Unicode does the same thing for a... much... larger 
number of characters and glyphs, and hence using a... much... larger range of 
numbers.


Unicode specifies numbers, not bytes. UTF8 and UTF16 are two of several ways 
of representing Unicode strings in bytes. UTF8 is designed to do so in a way 
that makes ASCII text compatible with UTF8, i.e. a file of ASCII text is a 
valid UTF8 file; the reverse is not necessarily true.


A long-running problem with Metacard, Revolution, LC up to v6 was being 
surprisingly platform-centric about character sets. To this day, textEncode 
etc only support MacRoman on Mac, only support ISO-8859-1 on Linux, and so on; 
as if we never are on one platform, needing to deal with character streams 
generated on another. See

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12205
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22391
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=21320

LC7 brought LiveCode into the later part of the 20th century by properly 
supporting Unicode, and by breaking the assumed link between bytes and 
characters. However if I understand correctly, the internal format of strings 
does not, or at least not necessarily, correspond to any externally defined 
standard, but can take various forms in order to maximise efficiencies of 
processing and storage.


Not sure if this helps, but it helped me to write it!

Ben

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Email Support level(s) clarification

2021-09-08 Thread Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode




I hate to ask this offlist one-on-one because
it seems much more of an FAQ-type question,
where answering once could service many people,
saving both LC Ltd and ourselves lots of time.

So here it is

Now "Email Support" is listed as an Addon
in the new livecode.com Standard Pricing page.

The details mention "unlimited email support"
with "2 business days" turnaround.

The cost seems to be the same as a platform.

And here's the reason this is confusing:
I don't see any info on the alternative
or default if we do NOT add Email Support.
(What's the "standard" Standard support, if any?)

In practice, LC support email has been used
for an incredibly broad range of issues.
Everything from "hey, the web store is down"
to Licensing questions. (And this question!)

For years we've had two levels of support:
default, or faster/more involved Pro support.

If the new addon is roughly like Pro support,
and the default still has basic email support,
then it'll all make sense for existing users.
Otherwise ... please enlighten me. Thanks!

(I'd suggest an FAQ on this for newbies too.)

Apologies if this has been covered already;
I was unable to follow every thread lately.

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

2021-09-08 Thread Keith Martin via use-livecode

> On Sep 7, 2021, at 11:04 PM, Martin Koob via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> My wife and I have an ongoing disagreement about the term 'couple of’ in 
> terms of counting.  I say it means around 2 or 3ish.  She says it means 2. 
> Further she says if you wanted to say 3 or 4 you would say ‘a few’.

I'm the kind of person that distinguishes between 'like' (exclusive: similar to 
but not) and 'such as' (inclusive: similar to and part of the comparison set), 
so this is coming from a position of pedantry, but that's because I am a 
writer...

Strictly speaking, 'a couple' means two, no more and no less. In casual use 
(when counting, not when referring to relationship partnerships) it isn't 
unusual for it to be used in place of 'a few' and possibly mean three or even 
four, but it's not technically *correct.*

I too hope your wife's logic is what holds true!

:)

k
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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?


I'm also excited by the items in this list, at least the ones that I understand.

I still haven't fully understood the one Alex raises below, but I'm content 
that it won't bother me until I do.


I am a bit disturbed by the Tail Expressions one, because to the extent that I 
do understand it, I don't see how this doesn't break existing code that passes 
an array, and will do so in the worst way, i.e. silently, leaving the 
developer to figure out what's going on by the secondary or tertiary effects. 
Am I wrong?


I'm very pleased about constant expressions. I do wonder whether this raft of 
changes might also be the moment to do something about this nasty little 
weirdness:

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18390

I also wonder whether this might be the moment to introduce another bit of 
(completely non-breaking) syntactic sugar:

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=8945

Ben, eagerly anticipating


On 08/09/2021 08:50, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2021-09-08 01:33, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote:

But
 put [1, 2, 3 ] into tVar2
isn't clear to me. If it was in Python it would be a list - but LC
doesn't have 'lists'.

Is it equivalent to
   put true into tVar2[1]
   put true into tVar2[2]
   put true into tVar2[3]    ??


Yes.

A sequence in LC is a numerically-keyed array where the keys range from 
1...the number of elements.


Admittedly they are (currently) still implemented as a 'normal' array 
internally, but they do have different functionality in `repeat for each 
element` which iterates in numeric order, and not hash order.



Why can't I say
    put { myvar: "first", anothervar: tWhatever } into tVar2   ?


So if one treats array literals as an equivalent to an ordered sequence of put 
statements (which is the canonical interpretation really!) then there is, in 
principal, no problem with allowing non-constant expressions for both key and 
value.


Certainly non-constant value expressions are no problem at all, and would be 
included in the initial implementation... I'm not averse to non-constant key 
expressions either really, I'm just a little skittish over the resulting 
reservation of ':' (which is probably fine), and the interplay with variables 
and unquoted-literals (more in terms of difference that might occur between 
what the engine thinks something means and what the writer intended).



But I was disappointed to not see my two biggest 'constant' wishes

1. multi-line constants e.g. amongst other ways, Python's

put """line 1

line 2

line 3""" into tVar


I'm not averse to the idea of multi-line literals - although constant-folding 
does go a long way to assuage the problems they solve in many cases.


e.g. You can use format("dfsdf\ndfgdfg") for short strings with newlines in, 
and any chained sequence of concatenations of constants will be evaluated at 
compile time.


The main issue here is the effect on tooling really - any code which processes 
LiveCode Script in any way would need to change to take them into account. 
This not only includes syntax highlighters and editors but any code which 
groks script for other reason. This means that what might be a relatively 
simple change to the engine, actually introduces a ripple effect where the 
whole implementation burden is a great deal higher.


[ I'd point out that I don't think there is a single piece of tooling in 
existence which actually fully supports the *current* lexical structure of 
LiveCode - which has not actually changed since day dot - including the 
existing Script Editor ]


That being said, in terms of what multiline syntax I'd propose, if it were to 
be added - I'd be in favour of Swift's model. Most other languages have added 
multiline strings with no thought to code structure, however the Swift team 
really have:


    var foo = """
  Line 1 - spaces before stripped
  Line 2 - spaces before stripped
  """

There are two simple rules at play here.

The first is that no string content is present on the lines containing """ - 
i.e. the string content starts on the line after the opening """, and the 
string content ends on the line before the closing """.


The second is that whitespace is stripped from each line of the string content 
based on the whitespace before the final """. i.e. If the """ is indented by 3 
spaces, then 3 spaces are removed from all lines of the content.


This means indenting of such literals is no different from any other construct 
- and is merely predicated on identifying the lines in such a literal as 
continuations (i.e. each line is an extension to the last).



2. global constants. Most compiled languages will allow an 'include'
file which can specify constants, which you can then rely on to be
defined properly (and the same) everywhere. So that's probably too
much at odds with LC's model - but could be handled by 'protect'
global variables (or, I'm sure, another 10 ways that Mark W. could
think of).


So if by 'global

Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

May I repeat my request that anyone experiencing these issues on Windows 
(Andre, Lagi, Bob), could if possible confirm whether they find the same 
applies using LC 6.7?


It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue, or whether it 
came in with the switch to LC7, as we know some other Windows-specific speed 
issues did.


Ben

On 08/09/2021 11:17, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote:

I mean the script editor mostly but also the rest of the ide has a bit of jank. 
Laying out interfaces on Windows has been worse than doing it on a Mac. The 
worse offender is the script editor though.


On 7 Sep 2021, at 23:28, Scott Morrow via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Andre, when you say “so bad” do you mean the script editor or… ?
--
Scott Morrow


On Sep 7, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
 wrote:

to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it caused me to 
switch back to a mac...



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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?


On 2021-09-08 11:35, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote:

I just don't understand this one, so no comment.


As I understand, this is LC version of the “spread operator”.  It
allows you to spread the elements of an array as the arguments to a
handler.

The code:

  put “an...@example.com ” into tDataA[1]
  put “Andre Garzia” into tDataA[2]

  sendEmail …tDataA

Is syntactically equivalent to:


  put “an...@example.com ” into tDataA[1]
  put “Andre Garzia” into tDataA[2]

  sendEmail tDataA[1], tDataA[2]

Which means that you can code the “sendEmail” command to have two
string arguments instead of an array, as shown below:

  command sendEmail pEmail, pFullName
// send your email
  end sendEmail

The spread operator will pass every array element as an argument to
the handler.


Yes - that is precisely what it is :)


It would be beneficial if this feature would also come paired a “rest
operator” that collected extra arguments in an array, so that we could
declare the “sendEmail” handler as

  command sendEmail pEmail, pFullName, …pMoreArgumentsA
// stuff
  end sendEmail

This way, if the call uses an array that contains more than two
elements, the remaining parameters are collected in the final
“pMoreArgumentsA” array. That if what I would like to have, LC didn’t
say anything about this but it is very common in other languages to
implement both operators at the same time.


Indeed.

The key thing here is that doing that adds to the handler signature 
syntax which I'd prefer to do as part of a more substantial improvement 
to the expressibility of that aspect of the language.


Therefore...


In the case of LiveCode there is an alternative though. We can use
“paramCount” and “param()” to grab the extra parameters, but that
requires us coding it while something like a “rest operator” do that
for us automatically.


The feature I omitted from the list and which does pair with the spread 
(or tail) operator is a tweak to the params function... Namely:


   params(N) => returns a sequence or params starting from the Nth

So in the above:

   command sendEmail pEmail, pFullName
 local tMoreArgumentsA
 put params(3) into tMoreArgumentsA
 ...
   end sendEmail

This is a direct evolution / useful addition to the current way existing 
handlers manipulate arguments - and, more importantly, saves a blob of 
code I've seen 100's of times in code which needs to forward arguments:


   command foo
 local tParams
 repeat with i = 1 to the paramCount
put param(i) into tParams[i]
 end repeat
 ...
   end foo

Also this feature is largely orthogonal to any tweak to handler 
signature (i.e. the merge operator, Andre suggests above) as it just 
manipulates the parameters as defined by the signature. For example, in 
the imagined case of a 'merge' clause:


   command merged pFoo, pRestA...
   put the paramCount into tCount -- gives 2
   put param(1) into tFoo -- would give pFoo
   put param(2) into tRestA - would give pRestA
   end merged

Here there are two parameters - pFoo, and an (array) pRestA which 
contains the rest of the parameters passed.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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AW: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

2021-09-08 Thread Tiemo via use-livecode

The response of the IDE on Windows is harrowing slow. It's definitely no fun 
and is chilling for every newbe!
I tried all tweaks without result.

For me the hassle started with LC 7 (if I remember right)

Tiemo


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: use-livecode  Im Auftrag von Ben 
Rubinstein via use-livecode
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. September 2021 14:14
An: Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
Cc: Ben Rubinstein 
Betreff: Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

May I repeat my request that anyone experiencing these issues on Windows 
(Andre, Lagi, Bob), could if possible confirm whether they find the same 
applies using LC 6.7?

It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue, or whether it 
came in with the switch to LC7, as we know some other Windows-specific speed 
issues did.

Ben

On 08/09/2021 11:17, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote:
> I mean the script editor mostly but also the rest of the ide has a bit of 
> jank. Laying out interfaces on Windows has been worse than doing it on a Mac. 
> The worse offender is the script editor though.
> 
>> On 7 Sep 2021, at 23:28, Scott Morrow via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> Andre, when you say “so bad” do you mean the script editor or… ?
>> --
>> Scott Morrow
>>
>>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it caused me 
>>> to switch back to a mac...
>>
>>
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Re: AW: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)


Thanks Tiemo.

I think it would help LiveCode address this issue if we knew two things:
- if this is something that changed at some point, what was that point
- if this doesn't affect everyone on Windows, what are the relevant 
distinctions

In relation to the first question, if someone who is experiencing the problem 
was able to test using


https://livecodestatic.com/downloads/livecode/7_0_0/LiveCodeInstaller-7_0_0-Windows.exe
and

https://livecodestatic.com/downloads/livecode/6_7_11/LiveCodeCommercialInstaller-6_7_11-Windows.exe
and confirm whether there's a dramatic difference in IDE speed, that would 
help. (Unfortunately since the licensing changes, the available installers for 
these old versions require someone with a commercial license.)


In relation to the second, by my count four people have now reported 
harrowingly slow IDE performance on Windows. I think at least two have said 
it's fine for them. Could we get a catalogue of the setups which do and don't 
experience the issue?


Ben


On 08/09/2021 13:26, Tiemo via use-livecode wrote:

The response of the IDE on Windows is harrowing slow. It's definitely no fun 
and is chilling for every newbe!
I tried all tweaks without result.

For me the hassle started with LC 7 (if I remember right)

Tiemo


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: use-livecode  Im Auftrag von Ben 
Rubinstein via use-livecode
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. September 2021 14:14
An: Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
Cc: Ben Rubinstein 
Betreff: Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

May I repeat my request that anyone experiencing these issues on Windows 
(Andre, Lagi, Bob), could if possible confirm whether they find the same 
applies using LC 6.7?

It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue, or whether it 
came in with the switch to LC7, as we know some other Windows-specific speed 
issues did.

Ben

On 08/09/2021 11:17, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote:

I mean the script editor mostly but also the rest of the ide has a bit of jank. 
Laying out interfaces on Windows has been worse than doing it on a Mac. The 
worse offender is the script editor though.


On 7 Sep 2021, at 23:28, Scott Morrow via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Andre, when you say “so bad” do you mean the script editor or… ?
--
Scott Morrow


On Sep 7, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
 wrote:

to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it caused me to 
switch back to a mac...



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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?


On 2021-09-08 13:09, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode wrote:
I'm also excited by the items in this list, at least the ones that I 
understand.


I am a bit disturbed by the Tail Expressions one, because to the
extent that I do understand it, I don't see how this doesn't break
existing code that passes an array, and will do so in the worst way,
i.e. silently, leaving the developer to figure out what's going on by
the secondary or tertiary effects. Am I wrong?


It requires an explicit '...':

put 1 into tFoo[1]
put 2 into tFoo[2]

myHandler tFoo -- passes a single argument: the array tFoo
myHandler ... tFoo -- passes two arguments: 1, 2 (the elements of 
tFoo)


Interesting your missing of the all important operator being required 
reminds of a mistake I did make way back when I added the ability to use 
a sequence array as an array index...


  put tArray[tFoo] into tBar -- evaluates as tArray[1][2]

I really should have thought to require explicit syntax there. i.e.

  put tArray[... tFoo] into tBar

The reason here is performance - if I had done that it would mean the 
engine would known that in the case of:


  put tArray[tFoo]

That it will only ever generate a path of length 1 to index the array - 
rather than pretty much all array expressions potentially being 
unbounded in length.


You live, you learn.


I'm very pleased about constant expressions. I do wonder whether this
raft of changes might also be the moment to do something about this
nasty little weirdness:
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18390


Well constant expressions do alleviate that problem a bit:

constant kFormatArg = format("\"%s\"")

put format(kFormatArg, "Hello") => "Hello"
put format("\"%s\"", "Hello") => "Hello"

i.e. The use of `\` escapes in format, generates characters which format 
otherwise skips over as content - except `\` itself, so you have to be a 
little careful there. i.e.


   constant kFormatArg = "%s"

   put format(kFormatArg, "Hello") => "\Hello"
   put format("\\%s", "Hello") => "\Hello"

In regards to your comment on that report then yes that is a good idea - 
albeit a breaking change. However, I think that is probably best 
considered as part of a package of changes which improve the expression 
of string constants generally. After all, if tooling is going to be 
updated, it is better to do so 'all in one go', rather than in dribs and 
drabs. Multi-line string literals (as mentioned previously) would go 
into that 'package'.


Another thing we could consider at that point is adding a 'f' prefix to 
literals which imply they are C-style escaped (basically a contraction 
of 'format')... Indeed, we could even make that a way to introduce 
variable interpolation.


Also, at that point I'd probably suggest that we also allow ' or " to 
delimit strings.


So f'...' or f"...", '...\'...', "...\"...", '''...''', """...""".

(Specifically here I'm proposing that there would be no semantic 
difference between ' and " - they would merely enable trivial inclusion 
of the other quote type).




I also wonder whether this might be the moment to introduce another
bit of (completely non-breaking) syntactic sugar:
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=8945


Hehe - with integers being unbounded, there are plenty more version 
numbers in the future ;)


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

2021-09-08 Thread Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode




Ben:

> It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue,
> or whether it came in with the switch to LC7, as we know
> some other Windows-specific speed issues did.

Not "it". Instead a combination:

1. LC 7 Engine Performance issues.
2. New Windows antivirus trends affecting disk access.
3. Mediocre LC SE design with excessive disk access.
4. Lack of LC Dev Team adequate Windows use/testing.
5. Fewer "High Roller" or "VIP" LC users focused on Windows.
6. New SE "wow" features built atop Mediocre LC SE design.
7. Perhaps others/still unknown.

Long thread(s) about this previously including one by myself.

Solutions for many:

1. Only use SSD, never HDD.
2. Tweak antivirus, disable intensive options.
3. Turn off some fancy newer SE bling options.
4. Adequate memory, optimize PC.

I've had no problems since SSD.

(But yeah, it's mostly mediocre IDE design + antivirus trends,
plus Mac is the teacher's pet and favored platform.)

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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Re: Send a table in an email.

Hi Sean,

Could you try converting your table into a .pdf file so it displays properly?

Good luck!

Rick

> On Sep 8, 2021, at 6:02 AM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi all
> 
> I'm trying to use the MIME encoder to send an email with a table in the
> body. I have a field that has both plain text and a few lines that are
> displayed as a table in the middle of it. I basically just turn on the v
> and h lines and set tab stops.
> 
> mimeEncodeField... puts the text into the email body but does not seem to
> format out the table. Is there a way to get it to recognise the table or
> some other way of getting the table to display correctly in the email?
> 
> Thanks
> Sean
> -- 
> Pi Digital
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Re: Send a table in an email.

2021-09-08 Thread Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode

Hi Rick,

It's not strictly what I was asking as I am talking about the mimeEncode
library. Plus it's a file that is then not easily selectable directly from
the email. I just want to be able to display a small table of data in the
email that is easily readable with a small footprint and using specifically
the mimeEncodeFieldAsMIMEMultipartDocument(pField).

Sean


On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 15:54, Rick Harrison via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi Sean,
>
> Could you try converting your table into a .pdf file so it displays
> properly?
>
> Good luck!
>
> Rick
>
> > On Sep 8, 2021, at 6:02 AM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all
> >
> > I'm trying to use the MIME encoder to send an email with a table in the
> > body. I have a field that has both plain text and a few lines that are
> > displayed as a table in the middle of it. I basically just turn on the v
> > and h lines and set tab stops.
> >
> > mimeEncodeField... puts the text into the email body but does not seem to
> > format out the table. Is there a way to get it to recognise the table or
> > some other way of getting the table to display correctly in the email?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Sean
> > --
> > Pi Digital
> > ___
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Re: LiveCode community edition is gone

Speaking of an educational license, perhaps consider, now that a lot of 
learning is online, having the ability to "assign" a seat license an email and 
password, so that someone could teach an online course, and distribute each 
seat license to students for the duration of the class. Upon graduation the 
teacher can direct the students to the Livecode site where they can purchase a 
(perhaps new user special deal) license of their own, and then turn off their 
per seat educational license. 

Bob S


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Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

I don't use 6.7 anymore, but no, they do not. At least not to the degree they 
do now. 

Bob S


> On Sep 8, 2021, at 05:13 , Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> May I repeat my request that anyone experiencing these issues on Windows 
> (Andre, Lagi, Bob), could if possible confirm whether they find the same 
> applies using LC 6.7?
> 
> It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue, or whether 
> it came in with the switch to LC7, as we know some other Windows-specific 
> speed issues did.
> 
> Ben
> 
> On 08/09/2021 11:17, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote:
>> I mean the script editor mostly but also the rest of the ide has a bit of 
>> jank. Laying out interfaces on Windows has been worse than doing it on a 
>> Mac. The worse offender is the script editor though.
>>> On 7 Sep 2021, at 23:28, Scott Morrow via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Andre, when you say “so bad” do you mean the script editor or… ?
>>> --
>>> Scott Morrow
>>> 
 On Sep 7, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
  wrote:
 
 to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it caused me 
 to switch back to a mac...
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: Email Support level(s) clarification

2021-09-08 Thread Heather Laine via use-livecode

Hello Curry,

What we offer in the way of support to various license types:

No license - we'll answer any presales questions you have. We won't offer any 
other kind of support.

Any license holder of any kind - up and running support. Can't install? Got a 
problem activating? Won't download? Happy to help, drop us an email.

Starter and Standard plan license holders - basic up and running support, plus 
seeking out resources to help you via direct email. Any other support, via the 
dedicated support forum. So, if there's a lesson on it I'll be happy to send 
you the link. If there isn't, I'll redirect you to the support forum where your 
issue can be discussed. 

Email Support license holders - send us unlimited emails, on any kind of coding 
question, and we'll do our best to help. We won't write your project for you, 
but we will offer code samples, help debug, identify issues, look at your code 
and suggest better ways to do things.

We'll update our FAQ on the website to ensure this is covered.

Best Regards,

Heather

Heather Laine
Customer Services Manager
LiveCode Ltd
www.livecode.com

> On 8 Sep 2021, at 12:10, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> I hate to ask this offlist one-on-one because
> it seems much more of an FAQ-type question,
> where answering once could service many people,
> saving both LC Ltd and ourselves lots of time.
> 
> So here it is
> 
> Now "Email Support" is listed as an Addon
> in the new livecode.com Standard Pricing page.
> 
> The details mention "unlimited email support"
> with "2 business days" turnaround.
> 
> The cost seems to be the same as a platform.
> 
> And here's the reason this is confusing:
> I don't see any info on the alternative
> or default if we do NOT add Email Support.
> (What's the "standard" Standard support, if any?)
> 
> In practice, LC support email has been used
> for an incredibly broad range of issues.
> Everything from "hey, the web store is down"
> to Licensing questions. (And this question!)
> 
> For years we've had two levels of support:
> default, or faster/more involved Pro support.
> 
> If the new addon is roughly like Pro support,
> and the default still has basic email support,
> then it'll all make sense for existing users.
> Otherwise ... please enlighten me. Thanks!
> 
> (I'd suggest an FAQ on this for newbies too.)
> 
> Apologies if this has been covered already;
> I was unable to follow every thread lately.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Curry Kenworthy
> 
> Custom Software Development
> "Better Methods, Better Results"
> LiveCode Training and Consulting
> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
> 
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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

> It requires an explicit '...':

Ahah! Not being a javascripter, I completely missed that, and thought you were 
just omitting some text for clarity!

[Sidenote: what idiot decided to use ellipsis as an operator?? And not even 
the ellipsis character, but three dots???].

> Interesting your missing of the all important operator being required reminds
> of a mistake I did make way back when I added the ability to use a sequence
> array as an array index...
>
>put tArray[tFoo] into tBar -- evaluates as tArray[1][2]

What the... ? [insert joke here - I wrote that without realising what I'd 
done...]. I had no idea this facility existed. Is it documented anywhere?

Just to be clear, because the example below is ambiguous, given

  put "a" into tFoo[1]
  put "b" into tFoo[2]

would
  put tArray[tFoo] into tBar

evaluate as
tArray["a"]["b"]
or
tArray[1][2]

?

On 08/09/2021 14:20, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2021-09-08 13:09, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode wrote:
I'm also excited by the items in this list, at least the ones that I 
understand.

I am a bit disturbed by the Tail Expressions one, because to the
extent that I do understand it, I don't see how this doesn't break
existing code that passes an array, and will do so in the worst way,
i.e. silently, leaving the developer to figure out what's going on by
the secondary or tertiary effects. Am I wrong?

It requires an explicit '...':

     put 1 into tFoo[1]
     put 2 into tFoo[2]

     myHandler tFoo -- passes a single argument: the array tFoo
     myHandler ... tFoo -- passes two arguments: 1, 2 (the elements of tFoo)

Interesting your missing of the all important operator being required reminds 
of a mistake I did make way back when I added the ability to use a sequence 
array as an array index...

   put tArray[tFoo] into tBar -- evaluates as tArray[1][2]

I really should have thought to require explicit syntax there. i.e.

   put tArray[... tFoo] into tBar

The reason here is performance - if I had done that it would mean the engine 
would known that in the case of:

   put tArray[tFoo]

That it will only ever generate a path of length 1 to index the array - rather 
than pretty much all array expressions potentially being unbounded in length.

You live, you learn.

I'm very pleased about constant expressions. I do wonder whether this
raft of changes might also be the moment to do something about this
nasty little weirdness:
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18390

Well constant expressions do alleviate that problem a bit:

     constant kFormatArg = format("\"%s\"")

     put format(kFormatArg, "Hello") => "Hello"
     put format("\"%s\"", "Hello") => "Hello"

i.e. The use of `\` escapes in format, generates characters which format 
otherwise skips over as content - except `\` itself, so you have to be a 
little careful there. i.e.

    constant kFormatArg = "%s"

    put format(kFormatArg, "Hello") => "\Hello"
    put format("\\%s", "Hello") => "\Hello"

In regards to your comment on that report then yes that is a good idea - 
albeit a breaking change. However, I think that is probably best considered as 
part of a package of changes which improve the expression of string constants 
generally. After all, if tooling is going to be updated, it is better to do so 
'all in one go', rather than in dribs and drabs. Multi-line string literals 
(as mentioned previously) would go into that 'package'.

Another thing we could consider at that point is adding a 'f' prefix to 
literals which imply they are C-style escaped (basically a contraction of 
'format')... Indeed, we could even make that a way to introduce variable 
interpolation.

Also, at that point I'd probably suggest that we also allow ' or " to delimit 
strings.

So f'...' or f"...", '...\'...', "...\"...", '''...''', """...""".

(Specifically here I'm proposing that there would be no semantic difference 
between ' and " - they would merely enable trivial inclusion of the other 
quote type).

I also wonder whether this might be the moment to introduce another
bit of (completely non-breaking) syntactic sugar:
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=8945

Hehe - with integers being unbounded, there are plenty more version numbers in 
the future ;)

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

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Re: AW: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

Also can I make clear that I dont think it is the size of the script.

Originally I had a 2000 line library stack and 14000 line main stack

When it works it works - I cut the main stack to 7000 lines and still get
the slowdown.

When it slows down its the same treacle/quicksand/molasses whether the
machine is a 10th gen with 16g or an 8gig pentium - when its fast its fast
on both - no consistency

Lagi

On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 13:39, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Thanks Tiemo.
>
> I think it would help LiveCode address this issue if we knew two things:
> - if this is something that changed at some point, what was that
> point
> - if this doesn't affect everyone on Windows, what are the
> relevant distinctions
>
> In relation to the first question, if someone who is experiencing the
> problem
> was able to test using
>
> https://livecodestatic.com/downloads/livecode/7_0_0/LiveCodeInstaller-7_0_0-Windows.exe
> and
>
> https://livecodestatic.com/downloads/livecode/6_7_11/LiveCodeCommercialInstaller-6_7_11-Windows.exe
> and confirm whether there's a dramatic difference in IDE speed, that would
> help. (Unfortunately since the licensing changes, the available installers
> for
> these old versions require someone with a commercial license.)
>
> In relation to the second, by my count four people have now reported
> harrowingly slow IDE performance on Windows. I think at least two have
> said
> it's fine for them. Could we get a catalogue of the setups which do and
> don't
> experience the issue?
>
> Ben
>
>
> On 08/09/2021 13:26, Tiemo via use-livecode wrote:
> > The response of the IDE on Windows is harrowing slow. It's definitely no
> fun and is chilling for every newbe!
> > I tried all tweaks without result.
> >
> > For me the hassle started with LC 7 (if I remember right)
> >
> > Tiemo
> >
> >
> > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> > Von: use-livecode  Im Auftrag
> von Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode
> > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. September 2021 14:14
> > An: Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
> > Cc: Ben Rubinstein 
> > Betreff: Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community
> Edition)
> >
> > May I repeat my request that anyone experiencing these issues on Windows
> (Andre, Lagi, Bob), could if possible confirm whether they find the same
> applies using LC 6.7?
> >
> > It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue, or
> whether it came in with the switch to LC7, as we know some other
> Windows-specific speed issues did.
> >
> > Ben
> >
> > On 08/09/2021 11:17, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote:
> >> I mean the script editor mostly but also the rest of the ide has a bit
> of jank. Laying out interfaces on Windows has been worse than doing it on a
> Mac. The worse offender is the script editor though.
> >>
> >>> On 7 Sep 2021, at 23:28, Scott Morrow via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Andre, when you say “so bad” do you mean the script editor or… ?
> >>> --
> >>> Scott Morrow
> >>>
>  On Sep 7, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>  to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it
> caused me to switch back to a mac...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
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Re: Send a table in an email.


On 2021-09-08 11:02, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:

Hi all

I'm trying to use the MIME encoder to send an email with a table in the
body. I have a field that has both plain text and a few lines that are
displayed as a table in the middle of it. I basically just turn on the 
v

and h lines and set tab stops.

mimeEncodeField... puts the text into the email body but does not seem 
to
format out the table. Is there a way to get it to recognise the table 
or

some other way of getting the table to display correctly in the email?


So the mime library call you are talking about is super simple - it just 
dumps the htmlText of the field into the HTML (so is fine as long as its 
just simple formatting involved), and then looks for inline images and 
attaches them as other parts.


The code is in the mime extension (com.livecode.library.mime) and the 
handler in question (mimeEncodeFieldAsMIMEMultipartDocument) is built 
out of other public mime library APIs... It would be relatively 
straightforward to create your own version and customize the HTML output 
to your needs.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
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LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Text encoding: summary of results and times.

It sure helped me to understand it! Thanks. As I understand the performance 
issue thought between 6.7 and later versions of LC, it revolves around having 
to process all the unicode strings that are native now. Or so the discussion 
has gone in the past. If not, then the performance hit since v7 has yet to be 
explained sufficiently. 

Bob S


> On Sep 8, 2021, at 02:42 , Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> On 07/09/2021 17:22, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
>> This makes sense to me (I think) because if I am not mistaken, UTF16 is 
>> Unicode, and UTF8 is simple ASCII. The slowdown from 6.7 to 7.0 was 
>> precicely the support for Unicode text. Someone will correct me if I am 
>> wrong about this. As a hobbyist, I try and stay away from localization 
>> issues. But I am interested in the idea that all text incoming should be 
>> text decoded and outgoing the inverse. (Did I get that right??)
> 
> Cue scenes of strong men reeling back in horror, ladies fainting, etc 
> (Bateman cartoons, for those of a British persuasion).
> 
> UTF16 is not Unicode, UTF8 is not simple ASCII, and I'm not even sure that 
> the slowdown from 6.7 to 7.0 was precisely the support for Unicode text, 
> though I'm not sure about that.
> 
> Unicode and ASCII are both conventions that assign character interpretations 
> to numbers. ASCII assigned approximately 94 character interpretations to the 
> numbers 32-126 (plus a few control interpretations to some other numbers). 
> WindowsLatin1, MacRoman, ISO-8859-1 etc all did the same but to a wider range 
> of numbers up to 255. Unicode does the same thing for a... much... larger 
> number of characters and glyphs, and hence using a... much... larger range of 
> numbers.
> 
> Unicode specifies numbers, not bytes. UTF8 and UTF16 are two of several ways 
> of representing Unicode strings in bytes. UTF8 is designed to do so in a way 
> that makes ASCII text compatible with UTF8, i.e. a file of ASCII text is a 
> valid UTF8 file; the reverse is not necessarily true.
> 
> A long-running problem with Metacard, Revolution, LC up to v6 was being 
> surprisingly platform-centric about character sets. To this day, textEncode 
> etc only support MacRoman on Mac, only support ISO-8859-1 on Linux, and so 
> on; as if we never are on one platform, needing to deal with character 
> streams generated on another. See
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12205
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22391
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=21320
> 
> LC7 brought LiveCode into the later part of the 20th century by properly 
> supporting Unicode, and by breaking the assumed link between bytes and 
> characters. However if I understand correctly, the internal format of strings 
> does not, or at least not necessarily, correspond to any externally defined 
> standard, but can take various forms in order to maximise efficiencies of 
> processing and storage.
> 
> Not sure if this helps, but it helped me to write it!
> 
> Ben
> 
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Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

Hi Ben,

I did some testing using the CPU% in the task manager - i was trying to do
some more before sending in my results.
It looks like if it has been running for some time but the time is not
"quantified" at the moment as I have not been working
on my project much these last few months.

When I do NOTICE the slowdown you cabn be sure i am not imagining seeing
characters typing 1 per second or 2 or the debugger taking ages to go to
the next step
or the autocomplete stopping working even after a reboot and then starting
again for no apparent reason.

Another real slowdown is when I have the project browser open or the
messagebox - not always to the same extent or to the same sklowdown.

I will install 6 (although if I remember 6 was fine)

Regards Lagi

On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 13:14, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> May I repeat my request that anyone experiencing these issues on Windows
> (Andre, Lagi, Bob), could if possible confirm whether they find the same
> applies using LC 6.7?
>
> It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue, or
> whether it
> came in with the switch to LC7, as we know some other Windows-specific
> speed
> issues did.
>
> Ben
>
> On 08/09/2021 11:17, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote:
> > I mean the script editor mostly but also the rest of the ide has a bit
> of jank. Laying out interfaces on Windows has been worse than doing it on a
> Mac. The worse offender is the script editor though.
> >
> >> On 7 Sep 2021, at 23:28, Scott Morrow via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Andre, when you say “so bad” do you mean the script editor or… ?
> >> --
> >> Scott Morrow
> >>
> >>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it caused
> me to switch back to a mac...
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
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> >
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Re: SE Show Globals inverted

This has been going on for years but I never reported it because... lazy. 
For me, it happens when I'm stepping through a handler and I change or 
query something in the message box.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On September 8, 2021 11:25:24 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
 wrote:


Here's a new one. I've noticed this before, that globals were appearing 
when show globals checkbox was not hilited. I just noticed that during this 
condition, checking the show globals checkbox hides the globals! LOL! I'll 
toss up a bug report later.


Bob S


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Re: AW: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

2021-09-08 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode

I pasted 8000 lines of text into Script Editor on Windows (just 1 large
block comment).  On typing chars take a couple of seconds to appear once
there is that much text.  Cut it down to 800 lines and it's fine.

With 8000 lines switch off "live errors" and the slow typing issue is gone.

I've asked Erik to try with 8000 line comment on his 32GB rig, since he has
no problems. He might have to increase the size of the text in that field
to 12000 or 16000, but I suspect eventually he too will get your treacle.

On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:52 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> When it works it works - I cut the main stack to 7000 lines and still get
> the slowdown.
>
> When it slows down its the same treacle/quicksand/molasses whether the
> machine is a 10th gen with 16g or an 8gig pentium - when its fast its fast
> on both - no consistency
>
> Lagi
>
>
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Re: SE Show Globals inverted

Good to know. Not a knockout blow by any means, and at least now I know the 
workaround. :-)

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 8, 2021, at 10:33, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> This has been going on for years but I never reported it because... lazy. 
> For me, it happens when I'm stepping through a handler and I change or query 
> something in the message box.
> 
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>> On September 8, 2021 11:25:24 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Here's a new one. I've noticed this before, that globals were appearing when 
>> show globals checkbox was not hilited. I just noticed that during this 
>> condition, checking the show globals checkbox hides the globals! LOL! I'll 
>> toss up a bug report later.
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: SE Show Globals inverted

2021-09-08 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode

I've seen it for years too. I never worked out what caused it.  But I'm an
inveterate user of the message box when debugging. I will look out for a
pattern to it now.

On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 6:32 PM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> This has been going on for years but I never reported it because... lazy.
> For me, it happens when I'm stepping through a handler and I change or
> query something in the message box.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> On September 8, 2021 11:25:24 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
>  wrote:
>
> > Here's a new one. I've noticed this before, that globals were appearing
> > when show globals checkbox was not hilited. I just noticed that during
> this
> > condition, checking the show globals checkbox hides the globals! LOL!
> I'll
> > toss up a bug report later.
> >
> > Bob S
> >
> >
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Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

I also have seen the autocomplete stop and start working, and that on a Mac. It 
may have something to do with the length of the script. I have also seen the 
extreme slowdown issue on Windows script editor and also in the performance. 
Most of the performance hit is in the frequent saves I inserted into my code to 
compensate for an old issue where the IDE would crash to desktop. But also I 
have tested sql queries, and they are also several times slower, as is 
populating datagrids and other things. 

As I have stated, I have done timing tests on several Windows platforms and 
have posted those results in the past, so I won't go through that exercise 
again. Suffice it to say that the Mac standalone I would be willing to market 
(if my code were good enough) but I would never attempt to market a Windows 
version of my code at this point. 

Bob S

> On Sep 8, 2021, at 08:47 , Lagi Pittas via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Ben,
> 
> I did some testing using the CPU% in the task manager - i was trying to do
> some more before sending in my results.
> It looks like if it has been running for some time but the time is not
> "quantified" at the moment as I have not been working
> on my project much these last few months.
> 
> When I do NOTICE the slowdown you cabn be sure i am not imagining seeing
> characters typing 1 per second or 2 or the debugger taking ages to go to
> the next step
> or the autocomplete stopping working even after a reboot and then starting
> again for no apparent reason.
> 
> Another real slowdown is when I have the project browser open or the
> messagebox - not always to the same extent or to the same sklowdown.
> 
> I will install 6 (although if I remember 6 was fine)
> 
> Regards Lagi
> 
> On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 13:14, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> May I repeat my request that anyone experiencing these issues on Windows
>> (Andre, Lagi, Bob), could if possible confirm whether they find the same
>> applies using LC 6.7?
>> 
>> It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue, or
>> whether it
>> came in with the switch to LC7, as we know some other Windows-specific
>> speed
>> issues did.
>> 
>> Ben

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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?


On 2021-09-08 16:48, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode wrote:

It requires an explicit '...':


Ahah! Not being a javascripter, I completely missed that, and thought
you were just omitting some text for clarity!

[Sidenote: what idiot decided to use ellipsis as an operator?? And not
even the ellipsis character, but three dots???].


Well the heritage of 'triple dots' for such things goes back to C - and 
I think the general idea is that its 'and the rest' (its used to mark 
variadic functions there).


In terms of using it as the operator in this case:

  foo a, b, ... tFoo
 => call foo with parameters a, b, 'and the rest' from tFoo

The reason why it isn't the ellipsis character is because it is 
generally advised to ensure that all core syntax of a language can be 
expressed in ASCII (for the antithesis of this idea - see APL!)


Interesting your missing of the all important operator being required 
reminds
of a mistake I did make way back when I added the ability to use a 
sequence

array as an array index...

   put tArray[tFoo] into tBar -- evaluates as tArray[1][2]


What the... ? [insert joke here - I wrote that without realising what
I'd done...]. I had no idea this facility existed. Is it documented
anywhere?


I'm pretty sure you were one of the people who motivated it (the other 
definitely being Trevor)...


It's definitely come up on the use-list before :D

It has been in the engine for years - maybe since 4.x or 5.x? The 
addition was more than likely buried in the release notes though...



Just to be clear, because the example below is ambiguous, given

  put "a" into tFoo[1]
  put "b" into tFoo[2]

would
  put tArray[tFoo] into tBar

evaluate as
tArray["a"]["b"]
or
tArray[1][2]

?


The former - if an array is encountered in an index, and is a sequence, 
the ordered sequence of values derived from the sequence is used as 
extra components of the path. Indeed, this happens recursively IIRC - 
i.e. if you have ['a', ['b', 'c'], 'd'] then the array path would be 
[a][b][c][d].


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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SE Show Globals inverted

Here's a new one. I've noticed this before, that globals were appearing when 
show globals checkbox was not hilited. I just noticed that during this 
condition, checking the show globals checkbox hides the globals! LOL! I'll toss 
up a bug report later. 

Bob S


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Re: Send a table in an email.

Hi Sean,

So you want the receiver of your emailed table to be able to modify the data in 
it.

I would make it an HTML email so you can allow the user to enter the data
directly into your server database table field.

That’s if I am understanding you correctly here.

Rick


> On Sep 8, 2021, at 11:05 AM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Rick,
> 
> It's not strictly what I was asking as I am talking about the mimeEncode
> library. Plus it's a file that is then not easily selectable directly from
> the email. I just want to be able to display a small table of data in the
> email that is easily readable with a small footprint and using specifically
> the mimeEncodeFieldAsMIMEMultipartDocument(pField).
> 
> Sean

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Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

Hi Curry,

My Laptop is SSD and still the problems. , I have the problems with or
without defender on.I don't use third party antivirus anymore
as (especially with norton that customers still bloody buy)  you get lots
of eyecandy bloat and headaches - the best antivirus i have is
the one between my  ears.

Lagi

On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 14:23, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> Ben:
>
>  > It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue,
>  > or whether it came in with the switch to LC7, as we know
>  > some other Windows-specific speed issues did.
>
> Not "it". Instead a combination:
>
> 1. LC 7 Engine Performance issues.
> 2. New Windows antivirus trends affecting disk access.
> 3. Mediocre LC SE design with excessive disk access.
> 4. Lack of LC Dev Team adequate Windows use/testing.
> 5. Fewer "High Roller" or "VIP" LC users focused on Windows.
> 6. New SE "wow" features built atop Mediocre LC SE design.
> 7. Perhaps others/still unknown.
>
> Long thread(s) about this previously including one by myself.
>
> Solutions for many:
>
> 1. Only use SSD, never HDD.
> 2. Tweak antivirus, disable intensive options.
> 3. Turn off some fancy newer SE bling options.
> 4. Adequate memory, optimize PC.
>
> I've had no problems since SSD.
>
> (But yeah, it's mostly mediocre IDE design + antivirus trends,
> plus Mac is the teacher's pet and favored platform.)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Curry Kenworthy
>
> Custom Software Development
> "Better Methods, Better Results"
> LiveCode Training and Consulting
> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
>
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-- 
KIndest Regards Lagi
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Re: Text encoding: summary of results and times.

I think that as the code changes in since v7 also included some substantial 
optimisations, I'm no longer certain that there is *in general* a performance 
hit from v7 onwards... except on Windows, where Mark W has hinted he may soon 
fix this.


But I'm not absolutely sure. Because the only place I really do massive 
massive amounts of text processing is on an unattended Windows machine, that's 
where I see the difference, which I previously attributed to the support for 
Unicode; on Mac, in general I (a) continue to find the text processing so 
blindingly fast that it doesn't bother me and (b) don't have a good framework 
for comparison because this is basically on the machine where I live and work, 
so there's always a substantial but variable amount of other activity going on.


Ben

On 08/09/2021 16:39, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

It sure helped me to understand it! Thanks. As I understand the performance 
issue thought between 6.7 and later versions of LC, it revolves around having 
to process all the unicode strings that are native now. Or so the discussion 
has gone in the past. If not, then the performance hit since v7 has yet to be 
explained sufficiently.

Bob S



On Sep 8, 2021, at 02:42 , Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode 
 wrote:


On 07/09/2021 17:22, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

This makes sense to me (I think) because if I am not mistaken, UTF16 is 
Unicode, and UTF8 is simple ASCII. The slowdown from 6.7 to 7.0 was precicely 
the support for Unicode text. Someone will correct me if I am wrong about this. 
As a hobbyist, I try and stay away from localization issues. But I am 
interested in the idea that all text incoming should be text decoded and 
outgoing the inverse. (Did I get that right??)


Cue scenes of strong men reeling back in horror, ladies fainting, etc (Bateman 
cartoons, for those of a British persuasion).

UTF16 is not Unicode, UTF8 is not simple ASCII, and I'm not even sure that the 
slowdown from 6.7 to 7.0 was precisely the support for Unicode text, though I'm 
not sure about that.

Unicode and ASCII are both conventions that assign character interpretations to 
numbers. ASCII assigned approximately 94 character interpretations to the 
numbers 32-126 (plus a few control interpretations to some other numbers). 
WindowsLatin1, MacRoman, ISO-8859-1 etc all did the same but to a wider range 
of numbers up to 255. Unicode does the same thing for a... much... larger 
number of characters and glyphs, and hence using a... much... larger range of 
numbers.

Unicode specifies numbers, not bytes. UTF8 and UTF16 are two of several ways of 
representing Unicode strings in bytes. UTF8 is designed to do so in a way that 
makes ASCII text compatible with UTF8, i.e. a file of ASCII text is a valid 
UTF8 file; the reverse is not necessarily true.

A long-running problem with Metacard, Revolution, LC up to v6 was being 
surprisingly platform-centric about character sets. To this day, textEncode etc 
only support MacRoman on Mac, only support ISO-8859-1 on Linux, and so on; as 
if we never are on one platform, needing to deal with character streams 
generated on another. See
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12205
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22391
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=21320

LC7 brought LiveCode into the later part of the 20th century by properly 
supporting Unicode, and by breaking the assumed link between bytes and 
characters. However if I understand correctly, the internal format of strings 
does not, or at least not necessarily, correspond to any externally defined 
standard, but can take various forms in order to maximise efficiencies of 
processing and storage.

Not sure if this helps, but it helped me to write it!

Ben

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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?




On 08/09/2021 14:20, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

I also wonder whether this might be the moment to introduce another
bit of (completely non-breaking) syntactic sugar:
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=8945


Hehe - with integers being unbounded, there are plenty more version numbers in 
the future ;)


But why wait? (At least to introduce the 'uninterpreted' version.) If nothing 
else, it might serve to block the "@" symbol being hijacked for some other 
damn fool bit of syntax...


Ben (grumpy old man)

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Re: Send a table in an email.