date:20160229

Robert you may like to take the following snipped quote from Mark Waddingham 
into consideration in your analysis of how GPL applies to stackFiles:

I am not a lawyer, but it seems wise to at least provide some guidance in this 
case. Ultimately, it can only be guidance as we did not write the GPL and we do 
not define copyright law. We can just use our best judgement, our experience, 
our understanding of the GPL, and look to other use-cases of the GPL which are 
in existence in the same sphere as us.
It is our considered opinion and after much discussion over quite a long time 
that the following statement is definitely true:
If Wordpress and Drupal based on current advice from the FSF (who can be 
considered legal experts in this field - if somewhat biased) believe that their 
'plugins' are derivative works of their systems then under the same 
considerations 'stackfiles' are derivative works of LiveCode.
Now, we firmly believe that the FSF are correct. Not only do we think it is a 
reasonable interpretation of derivative work, but it is indeed part of the very 
spirit of the GPL itself. Therefore:
If you use LiveCode Community to create or modify a stackfile to which you hold 
copyright and then choose to distribute it, then you must distribute it under 
the terms of the GPLv3. You cannot choose to license it under any other license 
whether it be more or less permissive than the GPLv3 (on whatever axis you wish 
to take).

My reading of this is that any content embedded in a stackFile should be 
licensed under the GPL. I could be wrong as I’m also not a lawyer! I would have 
thought that the spirit of the license that it applies to everything the 
application requires to function.

To be honest I’m unclear if there are grey areas about loading content at 
runtime from external files. It may be only OK to license differently under 
certain conditions like publicly documented file format reader/editors I 
don’t know about that but it would have seemed to be an easy workaround for 
Wordpress themes if it were possible to license the php part GPL and the images 
and CSS etc under some proprietary license. Like I said though, I’m not a 
lawyer!

Cheers

Monte
> On 1 Mar 2016, at 3:29 PM, Robert Mann  wrote:
> 
> -- YES : with the Open Source Stack, you can sell staks AND forbid anyother
> third party to re-sell that stack if it includes content you wish to keep an
> eye upon. The GPL license only applies to CODE, not to the STACK as a whole.

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Re: The Future of LiveCode in Education

2016-02-29 Thread Colin Holgate

I’m trying to figure out which bit of information you mistyped. 1983 would be 
fairly late for getting an Apple II, but 1983 was before the Mac was released, 
and the Mac II didn’t come out until early 1987 I think.

Your remembered date is also four years before HyperCard was released. It could 
be that you meant 1993, and it was one of the last Macintosh LC II machines 
that you got. That would certainly have come with HyperCard.

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_lc/specs/mac_lc_ii.html


> On Feb 29, 2016, at 11:52 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami  
> wrote:
> 
> I think it was circa 1983, I was in San Franscisco...  our spiritual master, 
> Gurudeva, called from Hawaii saying "Your Apple II is coming any day. You 
> need to sign up for some classes right away... this it the future."
> 
> When it came... I think the 3rd thing I did after booting up was start 
> Hypercard  and made a button
> 
> on mouseup
>beep 3 times
> end mouse
> 
> That was it! I created my first primitive PIM (TO DO list thingy) the next 
> week and never looked back!
> 
> Time passes (Supercard...Richard Gaskin's pointing the way... Metacard, need 
> for URL stuff, windows standalone for volunteers on PC's)  later, the idea of 
> paying for the Indy was a "no brainer" and we've bought into every advance 
> payment  plan pitch Kevin has proferred since 1997 or so when Scott Raney 
> turned it over...
> 
> But it all started with the first button on software pre-loaded with the 
> machine.
> 
> BR
> 
> 
> On February 29, 2016 at 6:07:12 PM, J. Landman Gay 
> (jac...@hyperactivesw.com) wrote:
> 
> I don't suppose you still have any contacts over at Apple, do you? I
> would love to see LC ship with Macs.

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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

2016-02-29 Thread Robert Mann

Thanks all for these precise links references (Richard & Matt in particular),
I was able to sort of clarify the source of what I felt a problem.
And will share that. [Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal
advice.]

[See :: conclusion at the end :: call for an education stack on Livecode
Open source version Licensing issues, from a broader perspective than
strictly code]

Basically, I though the GPL applied to STACKS. What do you think?
Well, hum... seems I got it wrong!

the fuzz came from that quote of the FAQ on livecode site :

Can I sell the open source software I create with the open version of
LiveCode?

Yes. You are free to sell or commercialize anything you create under any
business model you choose. For example you could sell your application, or
give it away for free and charge for service and support. You must include
the complete source code for your software with any software you sell and
you cannot prevent a customer redistributing that source code. // To protect
your intellectual property you need a commercial license for LiveCode.//

Problem : a stack is more than pure code.
And that applies particularlily to the stack/hypercard paradigm that was
made to make books, presentations, etc : be a media presenter.
And in a media presenter, the value is often the various "sources" content
and not the code (go next ! go back...)

So to make it short ::
-- NO : a commercial license DOES NOT protect your intellectual property in
a stack, it only protects the (original) code in it.
-- YES : with the Open Source Stack, you can sell staks AND forbid anyother
third party to re-sell that stack if it includes content you wish to keep an
eye upon. The GPL license only applies to CODE, not to the STACK as a whole.

In particular, should one really want to protect some work of art, drawings,
text, audio :: these sources can be encrypted and decrypted at viewing,
making it more difficult to copy the files elsewhere;
[although technically where do you put the key ??]

0) So far, I frankly have'nt a clue whether a stack in itself, ei, the file
structure, is within the GPL or not. it's not what one could call "code".
It could be what is called a framework. Who "owns" it? I wonder!

1) Technically, legally, contractually, the Open SOurce GPL license applies
only to the code within the stack.
http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/297102/licensing-for-artistic-work-used-inside-gplv3-licensed-software

2) The source files (images, sounds, videos, texts) are not covered. That
means that basically these elements are protected separately by their
corresponding copyrights. [& same for brand names, logos of course]

3) The same rules seem to apply to the outputs produced : not covered by he
GPL license. So if the output incoporates some copyright work of art, it is
protected by copyright.

4) It seems the FSF foundation suggest to dual license the artwork under GPL
license too, but that is not automatic.

???, QUESTION :: has Livecode adapted the license to include all artworks
text etc within a stack into the GPL??
*** I do not have that impression, but we'd better validate that!! ***

5) What about the application LAYOUT? Again, that is protectable as a
DESIGN, and should not be covered by the GPL license.

7) For completeness, there is kind of a paradox regarding intepreters/and
scripts. Which in the case of livecode is related to the possibility to
compile too.
-- It seems (as mentionned in matt maier's post) that when you write a
script in a stack and distribute that stack file, the GPL does not apply,
treating that file as "content" rather than program. Hence you retain full
copyright.
But that is a very theoratical right, since code is exposed and it would be
very difficult to enforce any such rights.. particularly if used in a
commercial closed application!

-- it's only if you "bind" that code within an executable that GPL steps in
and that your code is open sourced by rule and you have to provide access to
the actual code.

6) Finally it is not totally clear if combining an open source stack that
exchanges with a closed source program of any kind besides, is within or out
of the scope of the GPL.

-- GPL & livecode say :: no way,
-- but GPL elsewhere and lawyers say maybe... let's see in court!

The issue seems discussable both from a technical, legal and ethical point
of views. It kind of depends how the two communicate, how really
(in)dependant the processes are and what the intention is.

it seems that :: if the independant software just adds some quality or
another function, without being central to the working of the main app, it
should stand up.

e;g. an installer application is admitted as being a separate application,
adding some necessary function to a main application that is otherwise
autonomous.

This could allow to keep some elements of control over a portion of code
elsewhere.
That could be a tricky loophole or get by door license wise and a potential
danger to

Re: The Future of LiveCode in Education

2016-02-29 Thread Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami

I think it was circa 1983, I was in San Franscisco...  our spiritual master, 
Gurudeva, called from Hawaii saying "Your Apple II is coming any day. You need 
to sign up for some classes right away... this it the future."

When it came... I think the 3rd thing I did after booting up was start 
Hypercard  and made a button

on mouseup
beep 3 times
end mouse

That was it! I created my first primitive PIM (TO DO list thingy) the next week 
and never looked back!

Time passes (Supercard...Richard Gaskin's pointing the way... Metacard, need 
for URL stuff, windows standalone for volunteers on PC's)  later, the idea of 
paying for the Indy was a "no brainer" and we've bought into every advance 
payment  plan pitch Kevin has proferred since 1997 or so when Scott Raney 
turned it over...

But it all started with the first button on software pre-loaded with the 
machine.

BR


On February 29, 2016 at 6:07:12 PM, J. Landman Gay 
(jac...@hyperactivesw.com) wrote:

I don't suppose you still have any contacts over at Apple, do you? I
would love to see LC ship with Macs.
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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

My apologies to you and Monte, if I sounded too defensive.

I do hope that this idea of a non-profit/give-away app license will not be 
summarily dismissed. It just might be a benefit to all of us.


Cheers,

Roger


> On Feb 29, 2016, at 9:01 PM, J. Landman Gay  wrote:
> 
> I know you're a supporter Roger, I didn't mean to imply criticism. I was just 
> curious what people would think a fair licensing scheme would include. I 
> guess I did miss your original suggestion. I also wonder how a hobbyist 
> license should be enforced, or if it should just be an honor system.
> 
> 
> On 2/29/2016 8:52 PM, Roger Guay wrote:
>> Well, what I suggested a few posts back was a license for non-profits
>> and give-away apps. But, I completely understand if that turns out to
>> be difficult to police. I’m only trying to help here!
>> 
>> Roger
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 29, 2016, at 7:45 PM, J. Landman Gay
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 2/29/2016 7:32 PM, Roger Guay wrote:
 Once more, I point out that this might be a good new revenue
 stream for LC!!! Does it hurt anyone?
>>> 
>>> Well, it could hurt the company if everyone suddenly decides
>>> they're a hobbyist. But let's take the thought experiment a little
>>> farther. What restrictions would you (anyone) put on a "hobbyist"
>>> license to differentiate it from the regular Indy license? It would
>>> have to prevent people from gaming the system.
>>> 
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> 
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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code


> On 1 Mar 2016, at 3:01 PM, J. Landman Gay  wrote:
> 
> I know you're a supporter Roger, I didn't mean to imply criticism.

For the record so did I and neither did I ;-)

> I was just curious what people would think a fair licensing scheme would 
> include. I guess I did miss your original suggestion. I also wonder how a 
> hobbyist license should be enforced, or if it should just be an honor system.

I’m curious too. 

Cheers

Monte
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Re: The Future of LiveCode in Education


On 2/29/2016 3:03 PM, Jeff Reynolds wrote:

So how about LC community shipping on all education macs? or on all
macs for that matter? I think Jacqueline hit it on the head that it
being there and easy to start playing with were the key to HC and the
Mac’s success! Apple needs to continue this tradition and LC fits the
bill. LC made an impression on Apple with getting into the iOS app
development, so its not a total stranger…


I don't suppose you still have any contacts over at Apple, do you? I 
would love to see LC ship with Macs.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: LiveCode for Educators (was LiveCode for the Hobbyists)


On 2/29/2016 9:45 PM, Peter M. Brigham wrote:

On Feb 28, 2016, at 4:21 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:


On 2/28/2016 9:07 AM, Peter M. Brigham wrote:

The old RevOnline/User Samples was an attempt at this, but most
people these days are used to using a browser to download files
and resources. That has the added advantage of showing up in
Google searches. Edinburgh really should set up a webpage on the
home site that incorporates an upload system


The user samples are already online, it just needs some enhancement
(and probably a server move): http://revonline2.runrev.com/


How do you navigate to this from the LC homepage??? If there's a
route, it's not at all obvious.


That seems to be one of the enhancements we need. ;)

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

I know you're a supporter Roger, I didn't mean to imply criticism. I was 
just curious what people would think a fair licensing scheme would 
include. I guess I did miss your original suggestion. I also wonder how 
a hobbyist license should be enforced, or if it should just be an honor 
system.



On 2/29/2016 8:52 PM, Roger Guay wrote:

Well, what I suggested a few posts back was a license for non-profits
and give-away apps. But, I completely understand if that turns out to
be difficult to police. I’m only trying to help here!

Roger




On Feb 29, 2016, at 7:45 PM, J. Landman Gay
 wrote:

On 2/29/2016 7:32 PM, Roger Guay wrote:

Once more, I point out that this might be a good new revenue
stream for LC!!! Does it hurt anyone?


Well, it could hurt the company if everyone suddenly decides
they're a hobbyist. But let's take the thought experiment a little
farther. What restrictions would you (anyone) put on a "hobbyist"
license to differentiate it from the regular Indy license? It would
have to prevent people from gaming the system.



--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: LiveCode for Educators (was LiveCode for the Hobbyists)

2016-02-29 Thread Peter M. Brigham

On Feb 28, 2016, at 4:21 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:

> On 2/28/2016 9:07 AM, Peter M. Brigham wrote:
>> The old RevOnline/User Samples was an attempt at this, but most
>> people these days are used to using a browser to download files and
>> resources. That has the added advantage of showing up in Google
>> searches. Edinburgh really should set up a webpage on the home site
>> that incorporates an upload system
> 
> The user samples are already online, it just needs some enhancement (and 
> probably a server move): http://revonline2.runrev.com/

How do you navigate to this from the LC homepage??? If there's a route, it's 
not at all obvious.

-- Peter

Peter M. Brigham
pmb...@gmail.com
http://home.comcast.net/~pmbrig



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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

Well, what I suggested a few posts back was a license for non-profits and 
give-away apps. But, I completely understand if that turns out to be difficult 
to police. I’m only trying to help here! 

Roger



> On Feb 29, 2016, at 7:45 PM, J. Landman Gay  wrote:
> 
> On 2/29/2016 7:32 PM, Roger Guay wrote:
>> Once more, I point out that this might be a good new revenue stream
>> for LC!!! Does it hurt anyone?
> 
> Well, it could hurt the company if everyone suddenly decides they're a 
> hobbyist. But let's take the thought experiment a little farther. What 
> restrictions would you (anyone) put on a "hobbyist" license to differentiate 
> it from the regular Indy license? It would have to prevent people from gaming 
> the system.
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code


On 2/29/2016 7:32 PM, Roger Guay wrote:

Once more, I point out that this might be a good new revenue stream
for LC!!! Does it hurt anyone?


Well, it could hurt the company if everyone suddenly decides they're a 
hobbyist. But let's take the thought experiment a little farther. What 
restrictions would you (anyone) put on a "hobbyist" license to 
differentiate it from the regular Indy license? It would have to prevent 
people from gaming the system.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

> On 1 Mar 2016, at 12:32 PM, Roger Guay  wrote:
> 
> Once more, I point out that this might be a good new revenue stream for LC!!! 
> Does it hurt anyone?

I guess it could hurt everyone that depends on the platform if it undercut the 
Indy license too much. One thing we know for sure is that with the Indy price 
rise being staged effectively over a couple of years since the first rise that 
the company is being more than fair with its current user base by giving them 
the opportunity to lock in current prices for the long term. 

Whether as the price of Indy rises a space is created for some kind of Indy 
Lite remains to be seen. However, I might suggest it would be difficult to find 
the right mix of features for it… Should it have no code protection but still 
allow proprietary licenses? Perhaps it should be royalty based or only allow 
free apps? Maybe it should have splash screens on standalones? Maybe individual 
platform licenses? What about a set fee per platform per standalone build? 
Maybe everything that can be easily removed from LC could be an addon at extra 
cost (database, xml, widgets etc)?

So many options that even if the company had something in this space it still 
won’t meet everyones needs.

Cheers

Monte
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Re: The Future of LiveCode in Education

2016-02-29 Thread Jim Hurley

As programmers, most of us on this list think mainly of programming as a tool 
for solving problems. 
Of course, that’s how it was born. The original use of the computer was to 
solve hard science problems.  It was assumed that a couple dozen around the 
world would be sufficient.

But, besides learning how to become programmers there is another important use, 
particularly in education, and that is computer programming as a tooI for 
exploring.   

If you’re talking about early education, consideration should be given to 
Turtle Graphics. Yes, that again.
Seymour Papert, a protege of Piaget, founded the  MIT Media Lab. The lab was 
responsible for implementing  LOGO (based on Lisp) and Tuttle Graphics designed 
for young children. As many of you know, I have long been an advocate of 
implementing TG in LC. It is a powerful tool for learning and exploring.

Here, for example, is a book written by two MIT Math professors: Turtle 
Geometry, The Computer as  Medium for Exploring Mathematics. MIT press, 1979. 
(The last chapter  is titled: Curved Space and General Relativity.)

Here are the chapter titles of a book I wrote some years back designed to allow 
students to explore the world of physics: Logo Physics, Holt, Rinehart and 
Winston, 1985

Chapter 1   Vectors
Chapter 2   Equilibrium of forces
Chapter 3   Free fall
Chapter 4   Projectile motion and the CRT
Chapter 5   Projectile motion II
Chapter 6   The monkey, the hunter, and Einstein’s principle of equivalence
Chapter 7   Escape velocity
Chapter 8   Planetary Motion
Chapter 9   The music of the spheres
Chapter 10  Voyager II and lunar orbits
Chapter 11  Jets, rockets, and conservation of momentum
Chapter 12  The harmonic oscillator, clocks, rabbits, and foxes 
(predator-prey simulation)
Chapter 13  The big bang
Chapter 14  Radioactive decay
Chapter 15  Bridges, catenaries, and the perfect arch
Chapter 16  Fishes and optics
Cheater 17  Rainbows

If If we're talking about the “The Future of LiveCode in Education” we 
ought to consider programming as a tool for exploration. 
Jim

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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code


What estimate? I did say "might" as I really have no idea what y'all can afford 
:-)


Sent from my iPhone

> On 1 Mar 2016, at 12:10 PM, [-hh]  wrote:
> 
> Monte, Roger's question is clear. Why don't you answer it?
> And show us the the data that's the base of your estimate?

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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

Monty,

I’ve tried to be clear about this. I am not complaining, nor am I upset with 
anyone. I have only good wishes and intentions for LC and users of LC. I’ll get 
along with whatever LC brings to my future. But you know better than I, that 
Apple is not going to be moved. So why not make lemonade out of this lemon: 
Once more, I point out that this might be a good new revenue stream for LC!!! 
Does it hurt anyone?

Roger

> On Feb 29, 2016, at 5:21 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:
> 
> Roger if you are suggesting you would be happy with Community if you could 
> publish GPL apps to Apple's stores then that's probably something to take up 
> with Apple.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 1 Mar 2016, at 10:39 AM, Roger Guay  wrote:
>> 
>> Do you include those who might want to publish to the Mac App Store and IOS 
>> in your estimate?
> 
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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

2016-02-29 Thread [-hh]

My email wasn't displayed, perhaps because a suspected iPhone?
No, No - I didn't sent this from anybody's iPhone ;-)

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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

2016-02-29 Thread [-hh]

>>> Monte G. wrote: 
>>> One of the issues of course is that there really might only be a handful
>>> of users that can't afford Indy and can't or won't use Community.

>> Sent from my iPhone
>> Roger G. wrote:
>> Do you include those who might want to publish to the Mac App Store and
>> IOS in your estimate? Roger

> Monte G. wrote:
> Roger if you are suggesting you would be happy with Community if you
> could publish GPL apps to Apple's stores then that's probably something
> to take up with Apple.
> Sent from my iPhone

Monte, Roger's question is clear. Why don't you answer it?
And show us the the data that's the base of your estimate?

Hermann

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Re: OS X - how to write to a file associated as a Unix executable

What I am trying to do is within a LC application

1. put field "mytest" into URL "binfile:~/race"

This creates a file called race in the ~/ directory.

The problem is that when you do a chmod +rw race the file is still
recognized as textedit file and NOT a UNIX executable.

When you look at a file created with LC and chmod  verses a file created
with textmate and chmod you can see the differences in the finder or get
info on both files and see the difference.

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 7:52 PM, Warren Samples 
wrote:

> On 02/29/2016 06:09 PM, Glen Bojsza wrote:
>
>> This only works IF the file created is associated with the terminal
>> application.
>>
>> The issue is creating the proper file format so when the chmod creates it
>> as Unix executable.
>>
>
>
> Are you saying that saving a file from TextMate and chmoding it works but
> using Terminal and 'print "something-that-will-execute" > /output/file' or
> 'cat /working/file > /working/file-cloned' and chmoding that file doesn't?
>
>
> Warren
>
>
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Re: OS X - how to write to a file associated as a Unix executable

2016-02-29 Thread Warren Samples


On 02/29/2016 06:09 PM, Glen Bojsza wrote:

This only works IF the file created is associated with the terminal
application.

The issue is creating the proper file format so when the chmod creates it
as Unix executable.



Are you saying that saving a file from TextMate and chmoding it works 
but using Terminal and 'print "something-that-will-execute" > 
/output/file' or 'cat /working/file > /working/file-cloned' and chmoding 
that file doesn't?


Warren


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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

Roger if you are suggesting you would be happy with Community if you could 
publish GPL apps to Apple's stores then that's probably something to take up 
with Apple.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 1 Mar 2016, at 10:39 AM, Roger Guay  wrote:
> 
> Do you include those who might want to publish to the Mac App Store and IOS 
> in your estimate?

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Re: OS X - how to write to a file associated as a Unix executable

2016-02-29 Thread Warren Samples


On 02/29/2016 06:06 PM, Warren Samples wrote:

'get shell("chomd +x /your/new/file")'



Well, that of course won't work jaja.

chmod


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Re: OS X - how to write to a file associated as a Unix executable

This only works IF the file created is associated with the terminal
application.

The issue is creating the proper file format so when the chmod creates it
as Unix executable.

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 7:06 PM, Warren Samples 
wrote:

> On 02/29/2016 03:13 PM, Glen Bojsza wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am trying to write the from a text field to a file and then change the
>> file so it is executable.
>>
>> put field "mytest" into URL "binfile:~/race"
>> or
>> put field "mytest" into URL"file:~/race"
>>
>> The file race is created in either case but are associated with textedit.
>>
>> I require it to be recognized as a Unix executable associated with the
>> terminal application once I have done a chmod +rx on it
>>
>> If I just save a file from textmate and do a chmod +rx then it works.
>>
>> So it has to do with how I am saving it out of LC.
>>
>> Any suggestions?
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> Glen
>>
>
>
> You could look into fileType in the dictionary. I can recall having to
> explicitly set the file type for images saved from LiveCode or they would
> open in an editor because LiveCode was saving them as text files.
>
> You could also try using 'get shell()' and whatever command or method you
> feel most appropriate given you content, to create the file and then make
> it executable by
>
> 'get shell("chomd +x /your/new/file")'
>
> This works here under Linux and  work under OS X because the file
> itself is being created and saved by the system instead of by LiveCode.
>
>
> Warren
>
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Re: OS X - how to write to a file associated as a Unix executable

2016-02-29 Thread Warren Samples


On 02/29/2016 03:13 PM, Glen Bojsza wrote:

Hello,

I am trying to write the from a text field to a file and then change the
file so it is executable.

put field "mytest" into URL "binfile:~/race"
or
put field "mytest" into URL"file:~/race"

The file race is created in either case but are associated with textedit.

I require it to be recognized as a Unix executable associated with the
terminal application once I have done a chmod +rx on it

If I just save a file from textmate and do a chmod +rx then it works.

So it has to do with how I am saving it out of LC.

Any suggestions?

thanks,

Glen



You could look into fileType in the dictionary. I can recall having to 
explicitly set the file type for images saved from LiveCode or they 
would open in an editor because LiveCode was saving them as text files.


You could also try using 'get shell()' and whatever command or method 
you feel most appropriate given you content, to create the file and then 
make it executable by


'get shell("chomd +x /your/new/file")'

This works here under Linux and  work under OS X because the 
file itself is being created and saved by the system instead of by LiveCode.



Warren

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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

Do you include those who might want to publish to the Mac App Store and IOS in 
your estimate?

Roger


> On Feb 29, 2016, at 4:16 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:
> 
> One of the issues of course is that there really might only be a handful of 
> users that can't afford Indy and can't or won't use Community.

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Re: The Future of LiveCode in Education

But a minute x 30 computers for an already overworked class teacher or under 
funded school tech just to do an hour of code type lesson may not happen. 
Ideally there might be an intermediate step between Scratch and the full LC IDE 
using a HTML5 IDE to introduce the language and advertise the full platform.

Cheers

Monte

Sent from my iPhone

> On 1 Mar 2016, at 8:21 AM, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> Of course it still means download an app, but that's a one-time task and 
> doesn't take but a minute.

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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

I believe the monthly subscription was dropped at the time of the open source 
release for exactly those reasons. Funnily enough LiveCode developers need to 
pay the bills too so need to avoid enabling people to game the system. One of 
the issues of course is that there really might only be a handful of users that 
can't afford Indy and can't or won't use Community.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 1 Mar 2016, at 9:25 AM, RM  wrote:
> 
> There was (amidst the plethora of purchasing plans that have come and gone) a 
> way to
> have a month's licence; so one could develop one's stack using the Community 
> version
> and then purchase a month's worht of commercial to hive off protected 
> standalones; whether that is still available I just don't know having stuck 
> with the Community version right from when it was released.

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Re: The Future of LiveCode in Education

2016-02-29 Thread Jim Byrnes

On 02/29/2016 02:16 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

William Prothero wrote:

 > Richard;
 > Agreed. Perhaps it’s my age. Yes, of course it won’t be a good
 > strategy to compare Livecode to Hypercard. I only brought it up in
 > an attempt to contrast the wide early adoption of Hypercard by
 > educators, to the current environment where there are so many
 > choices and also where knowledge of specific programming languages
 > seems to be tied to employment requirements at some IT companies.
 > That said, I think that livecode has amazing potential in education
 > and elsewhere. I hope to support that.

Personally I see no reason LiveCode can't become the go-to choice for
teaching CS basics.

Right now we see Scratch used for some of that, but the boundaries of
any point-and-click system are encountered pretty quickly.  For young
users it can be a good starting point, but most outgrow it fairly quickly.

I've seen some who move students directly from Scratch to JavaScript or
even Java, and I'm no educator but I've read just enough Piaget to
believe that's not a good choice.

By far the most popular learning language today is Python, which is in
most respects a pretty great language.  But the distance between "I want
to build an app" and "Look, I built an app!" needs to be as short as
possible to keep young learners engaged, and since Python follows the
traditional approach of treating UI as an afterthought a lot of
foundational work needs to be done with learners before they can build
even a simple app.

Funny you mention Python.  I learned of Livecode's existence on on 
Python list.  Someone was looking for a drag and drop UI builder and 
someone said it wasn't python, but Livecode seemed to be what he was 
looking for.

Regards,  Jim

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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

2016-02-29 Thread Matt Maier

[disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice]

I sympathize with your confusion. There is inherent confusion around the
differences between "sharing" and "free/open source." In the former case,
it's just something people do. In the latter case, it is a legal standard.

Livecode Community uses the GPL http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.en.html
This is important primarily because your standalones include the Livecode
engine. Livecode owns the copyright on the engine because their programmers
wrote it and assigned their copyright to the corporation. Leaving it at
that means that nobody else has any right to anything with regards to the
Livecode engine. In order to facilitate things like community, and
learning, and customer development, Livecode is giving you (us) a license
to use the engine provided certain conditions are followed. In this case,
the GPL is a viral license in that you are only given a license to use the
code if the binary you produce with it also uses the GPL (or compatible)
license. Those are the terms under which Livecode is comfortable allowing
you to use their intellectual property.

It's worth mentioning that the language itself doesn't work the same way.
If you open up a text editor, and write down words which the Livecode
engine might happen to understand, then you still own the full copyright on
those words. You can do anything you want with them. So the copyright on
the source of a script-only stack belongs to you. If you compile it into
the standalone then it must be licensed GPL.

That means there's a gray area around something like distributing a
Livecode-compiled binary under the GPL (source must be provided) and also
providing one or more encrypted scripts which that application can decrypt
and access if it needs to. As I understand it, the GPL blocks distribution
of a GPL-licensed executable that *requires* closed-source libraries to
run, but does allow the copyright holder to write in a specific exception
if they want to. The gray area refers to an optional library that *enhances*
(like a plug-in) the GPL-licensed application. I think that is merely
discouraged, but not actually blocked.

So it might be worth asking Livecode if they'd be willing to add an
exception to their GPL license allowing "hobbyists" to distribute a
closed-source library that is not compiled into the GPL-licensed
standalone. That would allow "hobbyists" to keep some of their code secret.
Maybe Livecode could even charge a different amount for that license.

[Disclaimer: Again, I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.]

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Robert Mann  wrote:

> hi folks, what is this fuss about?
>
> First : no. The allegation about hypercard forcing the open source path on
> all usage is not true. There was a command to protect a stack ("protect" of
> course!) . And some interesting pieces of software were sold as protected
> stacks.
>
> And it is precisely that positioning which is about to be abandoned by
> livecode and why i think it's going backwards (with LESS) rather than going
> forward (with MORE).
>
> What the fuss is NOT :
> 1) I never questioned the Open Source version of Livecode. it's fantastic
> and needed.
> 2) I never questioned the Commercial version. Again it's great and helps
> going forward.
>
> What I questionned is that we're going to be missing an intermediate
> tool/license that would allow somebody to close SOME of his work at a
> reasonable cost for a hobbyist. Just as was originally designed in
> Hypercard.
>
> Now most reactions are : if it is to play around just don't bother and
> distribute as open sourced. Ok guys.
> But things are not just that "idealistically" simple. Sometimes you just do
> not know yet. And wish to try out something. Because some people just do
> not
> know everything in advance.
>
> And on a deeper level, please, do pay attention that it is our whole
> copyright system which is being thus challenged.
> -- would you find it "ok" that everything you write with your open sourced
> word processor be absolutely open sourced? Whatever you write? even if it
> is
> your next brilliant patent?
> -- same question for the various open sourced "tools" that allow to edit
> pictures, drawings, videos and so on.
>
> The fuss about is that in the present state of the license applicable to
> open sourced livecode,
> whatever you "write" with live code, if "given" "shared" to anybody else,
> then becomes open sourced.
> THe frontier between the tool itself (its modules etc) and the "day to day"
> work you can produce with it have been blurred. Fine if that is what was
> really wanted!  But did we really all mean that???
>
> Actually it would be interesting to precise what rights get open sourced in
> a stack :
> -- do all the media incorporated in a stack become open sourced when
> shared?
> -- what about the copyright on the layout of the application ?
> -- what about the writing of the documentation included?
> -- what

Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code




On 1.03.2016 00:16, Roger Guay wrote:

I couldn’t agree with you more, Robert. Plus, I will point out again, that this 
is another potential revenue source for LiveCode.

Cheers,

Roger


That, now, makes sense. A sort of halfway house.

There was (amidst the plethora of purchasing plans that have come and 
gone) a way to
have a month's licence; so one could develop one's stack using the 
Community version
and then purchase a month's worht of commercial to hive off protected 
standalones; whether that is still available I just don't know having 
stuck with the Community version right from when it was released.


Richmond.

On Feb 29, 2016, at 1:31 PM, Robert Mann  wrote:

What I questionned is that we're going to be missing an intermediate
tool/license that would allow somebody to close SOME of his work at a
reasonable cost for a hobbyist. Just as was originally designed in
Hypercard.


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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

I couldn’t agree with you more, Robert. Plus, I will point out again, that this 
is another potential revenue source for LiveCode.

Cheers,

Roger


> On Feb 29, 2016, at 1:31 PM, Robert Mann  wrote:
> 
> What I questionned is that we're going to be missing an intermediate
> tool/license that would allow somebody to close SOME of his work at a
> reasonable cost for a hobbyist. Just as was originally designed in
> Hypercard.
> 

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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

Robert, I appreciate your thorough thoughts on this.  You covered a lot 
of ground, and you seem to have your mind well made up on open source 
license options so I won't try to convince you of anything here, just 
providing some links and background info for others who may share 
questions along these lines:



> First : no. The allegation about hypercard forcing the open source
> path on all usage is not true.

I don't think anyone was claiming that.  HyperCard was very clearly 
released under proprietary license with specific terms and conditions.


Bill Atkinson's commented I quoted seemed more to reflect a good 
appreciate for open process and for sharing in general, but in that 
video he expressed so opinions about GPL or any other open source 
license specifically.



> What I questionned is that we're going to be missing an intermediate
> tool/license that would allow somebody to close SOME of his work at a
> reasonable cost for a hobbyist. Just as was originally designed in
> Hypercard.

Originally HyperCard was given away for free with every Mac.

Indeed, once it became a product under Claris it proved difficult for it 
to sustain itself economically.


FWIW, LC has experimented with a wide range of price points over the 
years, including many that match price points suggested in recent 
related threads here.  If they had produced the sort of results hoped 
for we wouldn't be having this conversation today.




> And on a deeper level, please, do pay attention that it is our whole
> copyright system which is being thus challenged.
> -- would you find it "ok" that everything you write with your open
> sourced
> word processor be absolutely open sourced? Whatever you write? even
> if it is your next brilliant patent?
> -- same question for the various open sourced "tools" that allow to
> edit pictures, drawings, videos and so on.

According to the authors of the GPL, copyright of data output by a 
program is different and separate from copyright of code:





> The fuss about is that in the present state of the license applicable
> to open sourced livecode, whatever you "write" with live code, if
> "given" "shared" to anybody else, then becomes open sourced.

That is a distinguishing feature of the GPL and other related licenses. 
 And as Matt pointed out earlier this morning, there are many other 
open source licenses as well, such as the MIT/X11 license he's using, 
which differ in terms of downstream responsibilities.


Matt chose to obtain an Indy license so he can use MIT/X11 for the work 
he produces from it.


Choosing the GPL-governed Community Edition means choosing GPL.

We have many options to choose from, so only those who choose the 
GPL-governed edition are obliged to the terms they've chosen.




> Actually it would be interesting to precise what rights get open
> sourced in a stack :
> -- do all the media incorporated in a stack become open sourced when
> shared?
> -- what about the copyright on the layout of the application ?
> -- what about the writing of the documentation included?
> -- what about the logo of the company/individual  included?
> -- what about the trade marks eventually?

Trademarks are very different from copyright.  They require separate 
filing, and have different enforcement requirements as well.


Regarding copyright of media incidental to a work, for the distinction 
between code and output see the GPL FAQ link above.



> What happens if you incoportate in a stack a specific copyright
> protection for some elements.
> There would be a kind of conflict there.

If those elements are code there may be a conflict, or not, if the 
license of those elements allows it and is compatible with the GPL.


There are several questions in the FAQ I linked to above which cover a 
wide range of circumstances relating to such circumstances.



> And if you think these question over copyrights and so on are just
> a do about nothing, for most of us it is, clearly, but for Disney who
> managed to extend the copyright period by another 25 years and more
> in effect it is vital.

It is true that the US government has allowed a single corporate to 
revise its copyright law.  Whether allowing such a practice is useful 
for the general public has been the subject of much debate both in the 
US and abroad, and is - thankfully - beyond the scope of this list. :)



> A largest part of our economy will now more and more rely on these
> rights.

Yes, the "founding fathers" of the United States drafted the 
Constitution with explicit provisions for providing for protection of 
copyrights because they believed intellectual property was valuable.


The Berne Convention which makes the GPL and all other distribution 
agreements possible has been signed by more than two-thirds of the 
world's nations.


Protecting copyright is generally considered valuable so that creators 
of original works have the right to choose the terms of the

Re: Uploading Livecode generated HTML5 to a web-server




On 29.02.2016 23:19, Peter TB Brett wrote:

On 29/02/2016 20:27, RM wrote:

Generating an HTML5 "standalone' from Livecode 8.0 DP 15 yields 5 files:

YourStack.html

standalone.zip

standalone-community-8.0.0-dp-15.html.mem

standalone-community-8.0.0-dp-15.js

XX.livecode  [where 'XX' is a number] (this is actually a copy
of YourStack.livecode)

Do all of these have to be uploaded to one's website, and, as one of
them is a java executable
does one have to have some other fancy java 'stuff' uploaded as well?


Hmm -- did the HTML5 Deployment guide not explain it clearly? Would be 
interested to hear feedback so I can improve it.


The weirdly-numbered stack file is a bug in the standalone creator. 
Please file a bug report and I'll fix it!


Bug Number: 17040.

Best, Richmond.



You just need to copy the other four files somewhere on your website, 
then load the .html page in a web browser.  The HTML5 Deployment guide 
explains how to customise the .html page if you don't want to (or 
can't) put all four files in the same place.


 Peter




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Re: The Future of LiveCode in Education


Monte Goulding wrote:

> My son regularly immerses in Scratch. There’s a couple of things
> that make it a good learning environment beyond the drag and drop
> code blocks:
>  - web based so no download and install for schools without the
>resources to do that easily
>  - a tightly integrated project sharing and social network of users
>
> Now that we have HTML 5 it may be possible to cover these points and
> we are at least part way there on the sharing front. It would be nice
> to be able to sandbox code to a particular group if we wanted a
> single stack IDE that might work on tablets and in the browser. Some
> kind of canModify for a group in a cantModify stack might be nice too…

With LC's securityPermissions it's possible to deliver an app that's 
more secure than any browser.


Leaving only "network" enabled in securityPermissions, a standalone can 
download stacks, save data and code in the cloud, and never touch the 
local drive.


Of course it still means download an app, but that's a one-time task and 
doesn't take but a minute.


And with html later on it only gets easier.


> Anyway, the other point I wanted to make is I think we could do well
> to actively target a Scratch -> LiveCode transition. One way would be
> to import a user’s projects into LiveCode from Scratch via the
> Scratch API and some well commented code generation: > 
http://wiki.scratch.mit.edu/wiki/Scratch_API_(2.0)


That would be cool.

I wonder how hard it would be to build a Scratch-like system that reads 
Scratch files directly in LC


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Uploading Livecode generated HTML5 to a web-server

2016-02-29 Thread Peter TB Brett


On 29/02/2016 20:27, RM wrote:

Generating an HTML5 "standalone' from Livecode 8.0 DP 15 yields 5 files:

YourStack.html

standalone.zip

standalone-community-8.0.0-dp-15.html.mem

standalone-community-8.0.0-dp-15.js

XX.livecode  [where 'XX' is a number] (this is actually a copy
of YourStack.livecode)

Do all of these have to be uploaded to one's website, and, as one of
them is a java executable
does one have to have some other fancy java 'stuff' uploaded as well?


Hmm -- did the HTML5 Deployment guide not explain it clearly?  Would be 
interested to hear feedback so I can improve it.


The weirdly-numbered stack file is a bug in the standalone creator. 
Please file a bug report and I'll fix it!


You just need to copy the other four files somewhere on your website, 
then load the .html page in a web browser.  The HTML5 Deployment guide 
explains how to customise the .html page if you don't want to (or can't) 
put all four files in the same place.


 Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Open Source Team

LiveCode 2016 Conference https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/

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OS X - how to write to a file associated as a Unix executable

Hello,

I am trying to write the from a text field to a file and then change the
file so it is executable.

put field "mytest" into URL "binfile:~/race"
or
put field "mytest" into URL "file:~/race"

The file race is created in either case but are associated with textedit.

I require it to be recognized as a Unix executable associated with the
terminal application once I have done a chmod +rx on it

If I just save a file from textmate and do a chmod +rx then it works.

So it has to do with how I am saving it out of LC.

Any suggestions?

thanks,

Glen
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Re: The Future of LiveCode in Education

Jeff:
Hmm…. I am developing an app, rewritten from Director, that I am calling “Earth 
Explorer”. Am I infringing? I probably got hold of you CDROM in the ancient 
past, though. 

My first version of my “Earth Explorer” app (was named differently then) was 
actually written in Hypercard. Then ported to Supercard, then to Director. 
Gaads, will I never stop porting this resource? Of course, now the data are 
much more up to date.

A link to a video describing my first version that was written in LC is at:
http://earthednet.org/ptExplorer/Cover.html 

Now, I’ve made a lot of improvements and am adding resources to make it ready 
for wider (free) availability.
Best,
Bill

> On Feb 29, 2016, at 1:03 PM, Jeff Reynolds  wrote:
> 
> Yes was true for me as well even though i had programmed in a few different 
> languages in the past. At the time HC came out i was in grad school 
> {molecular biology) and not programming. After 10 minutes of looking at HC 
> and poking at it i realized how much fun and useful things i could do so 
> quickly and easily. Like Jacqueline I did not think in a few years that HC 
> (and later MC, then LC) would be one of the main things i would do in my work 
> for the next 25+ years of multimedia and exhibit design and production!
> 
> Years later HC was the system I did one of Apple’s first (and very few) 
> Multimedia CD-ROMs (Earth Explorer). Everyone, including Apple (I had to 
> convince them and they were a little chagrinned I had to convince them!), 
> thought it could run on HC and not require C++. Programming and debugging 
> costs would have been much higher if we had! I would have never gotten on 
> that path if HC was not preinstalled on that little Mac plus…
> 
> The CD-ROM sold very well at the height of the CD-ROM boom there, but had 
> only a minor impact in Education as only a fraction of schools had the money 
> to spend buying the copies they needed even with the package deals Apple ed 
> had. But within a year of so they started shipping the CD-ROM with every 
> school mac. This made a profound impact in education for a few years as it 
> was out there all over the place being use and not costing the schools 
> effectively (and could be used on older equipment by sharing the cdrom). I 
> think our company made way more at the dollar a disc bulk license than they 
> ever did with the retail and education sales that has all sorts of costs 
> associated eating up the larger profit margin! for Apple the dollar or two 
> increase was minimal in a computer’s cost and it got them lots of good will 
> from the schools as well as a positive impact on providing great content to 
> the schools not really available elsewhere at the time. Again would not have 
> happened if not shipped with every education mac.
> 
> So how about LC community shipping on all education macs? or on all macs for 
> that matter? I think Jacqueline hit it on the head that it being there and 
> easy to start playing with were the key to HC and the Mac’s success! Apple 
> needs to continue this tradition and LC fits the bill. LC made an impression 
> on Apple with getting into the iOS app development, so its not a total 
> stranger…
> 
> cheers
> 
> jeff
> 
> 
> 

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Re: The Future of LiveCode in Education

2016-02-29 Thread Jeff Reynolds

Yes was true for me as well even though i had programmed in a few different 
languages in the past. At the time HC came out i was in grad school {molecular 
biology) and not programming. After 10 minutes of looking at HC and poking at 
it i realized how much fun and useful things i could do so quickly and easily. 
Like Jacqueline I did not think in a few years that HC (and later MC, then LC) 
would be one of the main things i would do in my work for the next 25+ years of 
multimedia and exhibit design and production!

Years later HC was the system I did one of Apple’s first (and very few) 
Multimedia CD-ROMs (Earth Explorer). Everyone, including Apple (I had to 
convince them and they were a little chagrinned I had to convince them!), 
thought it could run on HC and not require C++. Programming and debugging costs 
would have been much higher if we had! I would have never gotten on that path 
if HC was not preinstalled on that little Mac plus…

The CD-ROM sold very well at the height of the CD-ROM boom there, but had only 
a minor impact in Education as only a fraction of schools had the money to 
spend buying the copies they needed even with the package deals Apple ed had. 
But within a year of so they started shipping the CD-ROM with every school mac. 
This made a profound impact in education for a few years as it was out there 
all over the place being use and not costing the schools effectively (and could 
be used on older equipment by sharing the cdrom). I think our company made way 
more at the dollar a disc bulk license than they ever did with the retail and 
education sales that has all sorts of costs associated eating up the larger 
profit margin! for Apple the dollar or two increase was minimal in a computer’s 
cost and it got them lots of good will from the schools as well as a positive 
impact on providing great content to the schools not really available elsewhere 
at the time. Again would not have happened if not shipped with every education 
mac.

So how about LC community shipping on all education macs? or on all macs for 
that matter? I think Jacqueline hit it on the head that it being there and easy 
to start playing with were the key to HC and the Mac’s success! Apple needs to 
continue this tradition and LC fits the bill. LC made an impression on Apple 
with getting into the iOS app development, so its not a total stranger…

cheers

jeff

> On Feb 29, 2016, at 3:13 PM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote:
> 
> HyperCard took off because it shipped free on every Mac. That's 
> certainly the reason I started with it, because I never in a million 
> years thought I'd like programming. But it was there on our new Mac so I 
> started exploring. The language was easily grasped and there were dozens 
> of examples to look at. I got hooked immediately.
> 
> If HC hadn't been there right in front of me I never would have touched 
> it, no matter how many glowing reports I might have read about it 
> elsewhere. I was positive that programming wasn't something I was suited 
> for. I am also sure that's what happened with all the thousands of new 
> HC users who never dreamed they could produce their own software.
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com 
> 
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com 
> 
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Re: The Future of LiveCode in Education

Richard:
Agreed. It always seemed odd to me that I had to rebuild, for every app, 
standard UI interfaces that most folks use. The Widgets capability in LC is 
masterful. It’s definitely a biggie.

My problem is getting my friends to actually try Livecode. I think I’ll need to 
do a bit of demo-ing of my own app and selling at UCSB to get interest.

One drum I am beating hard on this list is how badly there needs to be an 
interface to the commonly used Learning Management Systems, like Moodle 
(“Common Cartridge”, LTI, etc). I am simply loathe to dip my toes into that 
world. But perhaps, I’m just apprehensive of the “crocodiles” lurking beneath 
the surface. Looking further into this topic is on my “to do” list though.

Best,
Bill

> On Feb 29, 2016, at 12:16 PM, Richard Gaskin  
> wrote:
> 
> William Prothero wrote:
> 
> > Richard;
> > Agreed. Perhaps it’s my age. Yes, of course it won’t be a good
> > strategy to compare Livecode to Hypercard. I only brought it up in
> > an attempt to contrast the wide early adoption of Hypercard by
> > educators, to the current environment where there are so many
> > choices and also where knowledge of specific programming languages
> > seems to be tied to employment requirements at some IT companies.
> > That said, I think that livecode has amazing potential in education
> > and elsewhere. I hope to support that.
> 
> Personally I see no reason LiveCode can't become the go-to choice for 
> teaching CS basics.
> 
> Right now we see Scratch used for some of that, but the boundaries of any 
> point-and-click system are encountered pretty quickly.  For young users it 
> can be a good starting point, but most outgrow it fairly quickly.
> 
> I've seen some who move students directly from Scratch to JavaScript or even 
> Java, and I'm no educator but I've read just enough Piaget to believe that's 
> not a good choice.
> 
> By far the most popular learning language today is Python, which is in most 
> respects a pretty great language.  But the distance between "I want to build 
> an app" and "Look, I built an app!" needs to be as short as possible to keep 
> young learners engaged, and since Python follows the traditional approach of 
> treating UI as an afterthought a lot of foundational work needs to be done 
> with learners before they can build even a simple app.
> 
> With LC, of course, the UI stuff is as deeply integrated directly in the 
> language as event handlers and control structures, so the programming logic 
> tends to reflect the end-user experience more than how the computer delivers 
> that experience.  And since all of us use computers, it seems to gel more 
> quickly to work from a UI-centric perspective.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> 
> ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
> 
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Re: The Future of LiveCode in Education

> On 1 Mar 2016, at 7:16 AM, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> Right now we see Scratch used for some of that, but the boundaries of any 
> point-and-click system are encountered pretty quickly.  For young users it 
> can be a good starting point, but most outgrow it fairly quickly.

My son regularly immerses in Scratch. There’s a couple of things that make it a 
good learning environment beyond the drag and drop code blocks:
 - web based so no download and install for schools without the resources to do 
that easily
 - a tightly integrated project sharing and social network of users

Now that we have HTML 5 it may be possible to cover these points and we are at 
least part way there on the sharing front. It would be nice to be able to 
sandbox code to a particular group if we wanted a single stack IDE that might 
work on tablets and in the browser. Some kind of canModify for a group in a 
cantModify stack might be nice too…

Anyway, the other point I wanted to make is I think we could do well to 
actively target a Scratch -> LiveCode transition. One way would be to import a 
user’s projects into LiveCode from Scratch via the Scratch API and some well 
commented code generation: http://wiki.scratch.mit.edu/wiki/Scratch_API_(2.0) 

Cheers

Monte
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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

2016-02-29 Thread Robert Mann

hi folks, what is this fuss about?

First : no. The allegation about hypercard forcing the open source path on
all usage is not true. There was a command to protect a stack ("protect" of
course!) . And some interesting pieces of software were sold as protected
stacks.

And it is precisely that positioning which is about to be abandoned by
livecode and why i think it's going backwards (with LESS) rather than going
forward (with MORE).

What the fuss is NOT :
1) I never questioned the Open Source version of Livecode. it's fantastic
and needed.
2) I never questioned the Commercial version. Again it's great and helps
going forward.

What I questionned is that we're going to be missing an intermediate
tool/license that would allow somebody to close SOME of his work at a
reasonable cost for a hobbyist. Just as was originally designed in
Hypercard.

Now most reactions are : if it is to play around just don't bother and
distribute as open sourced. Ok guys.
But things are not just that "idealistically" simple. Sometimes you just do
not know yet. And wish to try out something. Because some people just do not
know everything in advance.

And on a deeper level, please, do pay attention that it is our whole
copyright system which is being thus challenged.
-- would you find it "ok" that everything you write with your open sourced
word processor be absolutely open sourced? Whatever you write? even if it is
your next brilliant patent?
-- same question for the various open sourced "tools" that allow to edit
pictures, drawings, videos and so on.

The fuss about is that in the present state of the license applicable to
open sourced livecode,
whatever you "write" with live code, if "given" "shared" to anybody else,
then becomes open sourced.
THe frontier between the tool itself (its modules etc) and the "day to day"
work you can produce with it have been blurred. Fine if that is what was
really wanted! But did we really all mean that???

Actually it would be interesting to precise what rights get open sourced in
a stack :
-- do all the media incorporated in a stack become open sourced when shared?
-- what about the copyright on the layout of the application ?
-- what about the writing of the documentation included?
-- what about the logo of the company/individual included?
-- what about the trade marks eventually?

What happens if you incoportate in a stack a specific copyright protection
for some elements.
There would be a kind of conflict there.

That is why, I thought it would not be a bad idea to keep a door opened for
some protection on some cases even for individuals indies etc. that will not
pay 999$ every year.

And if you think these question over copyrights and so on are just a do
about nothing, for most of us it is, clearly, but for Disney who managed to
extend the copyright period by another 25 years and more in effect it is
vital. A largest part of our economy will now more and more rely on these
rights.

Last : are there other computer programming languages that are open sourced
and that impose on all programs written with it to be open sourced same
way??

best to all,
Robert

--
View this message in context:
http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Open-source-closed-source-and-the-value-of-code-tp4701649p4701662.html
Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Uploading Livecode generated HTML5 to a web-server


Generating an HTML5 "standalone' from Livecode 8.0 DP 15 yields 5 files:

YourStack.html

standalone.zip

standalone-community-8.0.0-dp-15.html.mem

standalone-community-8.0.0-dp-15.js

XX.livecode  [where 'XX' is a number] (this is actually a copy 
of YourStack.livecode)


Do all of these have to be uploaded to one's website, and, as one of 
them is a java executable

does one have to have some other fancy java 'stuff' uploaded as well?

Richmond.



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Re: Hey-Ho and Off We Go with HTML5




On 29.02.2016 22:13, RM wrote:



On 29.02.2016 21:29, RM wrote:

So:

I made a stack with a button and 2 fields in LiveCode 8.0 DP 15 and a 
spot of
scripting in the button, and exported the thing as an HTML5 
standalone, then opened
the generated page in Firefox, and (apart from the slightly squiffy 
aesthetics) the thing

looked and behaved exactly like the original stack.

Rocks!

So . . . . I am getting all revved-up to generate an HTML page for 
University students of my
wife's to do a gap-fill exercise, AND, having clicked on a "SUBMIT" 
button  to have the results

put into a merry text-file and e-mailed to my wife.

AND the question is: can anybody tell me how to send a text file 
generated in Livecode

to an email address?

Richmond.


So: I popped this in a button of my stack:

on mouseUp
   revMail "z...@gmail.com", "q...@gmail.com", "Test", "Message sent 
from LiveCode-HTML5"

end mouseUp

From the stack that button opened my email client (Thunderbird) and 
filled in all the required boxes.


Absolutely fantastic!!!

BUT, from the same stuck, once hived-off as an HTML5 thing the button 
didn't work.


Richmond.


The next question, inevitably, is what will happen if one's end-user 
accesses their e-mail via
a web-browser and has no configured e-mail client installed on their 
computer?


R.

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Re: LC 8 hard question...

2016-02-29 Thread Jerry Jensen

Eminently quotable! This is why I will not take fixed-price jobs.
.Jerry

> On Feb 29, 2016, at 9:45 AM, Richard Gaskin  
> wrote:
> 
> * Any projection of ship dates from any one about any software is, 
> ultimately, a form of guesswork.  We have 50 years of ACM literature to back 
> that up, and insightful authors from Fred Brooks to Steven McConnell to 
> explain why this unpredictability persists.  Until when a system ships can we 
> know the ship date.  Prior to that the inevitable unpredictable things that 
> define our universe and the software development tasks we do within it will 
> come into play.  I always try to keep this in mind with all software from all 
> vendors.


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Re: The Future of LiveCode in Education

William Prothero wrote:

> Richard;
> Agreed. Perhaps it’s my age. Yes, of course it won’t be a good
> strategy to compare Livecode to Hypercard. I only brought it up in
> an attempt to contrast the wide early adoption of Hypercard by
> educators, to the current environment where there are so many
> choices and also where knowledge of specific programming languages
> seems to be tied to employment requirements at some IT companies.
> That said, I think that livecode has amazing potential in education
> and elsewhere. I hope to support that.

Personally I see no reason LiveCode can't become the go-to choice for 
teaching CS basics.

Right now we see Scratch used for some of that, but the boundaries of 
any point-and-click system are encountered pretty quickly.  For young 
users it can be a good starting point, but most outgrow it fairly quickly.

I've seen some who move students directly from Scratch to JavaScript or 
even Java, and I'm no educator but I've read just enough Piaget to 
believe that's not a good choice.

By far the most popular learning language today is Python, which is in 
most respects a pretty great language.  But the distance between "I want 
to build an app" and "Look, I built an app!" needs to be as short as 
possible to keep young learners engaged, and since Python follows the 
traditional approach of treating UI as an afterthought a lot of 
foundational work needs to be done with learners before they can build 
even a simple app.

With LC, of course, the UI stuff is as deeply integrated directly in the 
language as event handlers and control structures, so the programming 
logic tends to reflect the end-user experience more than how the 
computer delivers that experience.  And since all of us use computers, 
it seems to gel more quickly to work from a UI-centric perspective.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web

 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Hey-Ho and Off We Go with HTML5




On 29.02.2016 21:29, RM wrote:

So:

I made a stack with a button and 2 fields in LiveCode 8.0 DP 15 and a 
spot of
scripting in the button, and exported the thing as an HTML5 
standalone, then opened
the generated page in Firefox, and (apart from the slightly squiffy 
aesthetics) the thing

looked and behaved exactly like the original stack.

Rocks!

So . . . . I am getting all revved-up to generate an HTML page for 
University students of my
wife's to do a gap-fill exercise, AND, having clicked on a "SUBMIT" 
button  to have the results

put into a merry text-file and e-mailed to my wife.

AND the question is: can anybody tell me how to send a text file 
generated in Livecode

to an email address?

Richmond.


So: I popped this in a button of my stack:

on mouseUp
   revMail "z...@gmail.com", "q...@gmail.com", "Test", "Message sent from 
LiveCode-HTML5"

end mouseUp

From the stack that button opened my email client (Thunderbird) and 
filled in all the required boxes.


Absolutely fantastic!!!

BUT, from the same stuck, once hived-off as an HTML5 thing the button 
didn't work.


Richmond.

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Re: The Future of LiveCode in Education

Richard;
Agreed. Perhaps it’s my age. Yes, of course it won’t be a good strategy to 
compare Livecode to Hypercard. I only brought it up in an attempt to contrast 
the wide early adoption of Hypercard by educators, to the current environment 
where there are so many choices and also where knowledge of specific 
programming languages seems to be tied to employment requirements at some IT 
companies. That said, I think that livecode has amazing potential in education 
and elsewhere. I hope to support that.
Best,
Bill

> On Feb 29, 2016, at 11:53 AM, Richard Gaskin  
> wrote:
> 
> William Prothero wrote:
> 
> > For those already familiar with other programming languages (I’m
> > in that group), the syntax may look archaic and put folks off. It
> > did me, at first. I was used to Fortran, Pascal, C, Lingo, etc,
> > and the Hypercard syntax just seemed primitive compared to modern
> > object-oriented syntax. BUT, when I looked at what Livecode was
> > capable of, its future, and it’s features and lack of limitations
> > that affected my goals, I became an avid user.
> 
> FWIW when I present LC at conferences I never mention HyperCard or HyperTalk, 
> unless of course someone brings it up specifically during Q
> 
> Comparing a vibrant, living system to one whose owner chose to kill it rarely 
> makes for a useful story. :)
> 
> Besides, most folks today have never used HyperCard, and it's getting ever 
> rarer that people I meet have even heard of it.
> 
> I've found it better to compare it to things they know, e.g.:
> 
> "It's event-drive like JavaScript, but with more intuitive syntax, esp for 
> object references: rather than constantly typing 
> 'document.getElementByID(tElemID)' I just type 'field 1'".
> 
> "It's at least as easy to learn as Python if not easier, but has GUI objects 
> built in as direct language elements rather than tacked on later  as an 
> afterthought through someone else's external package, so your UI code flows 
> as smoothly as your business logic."
> 
> "It's as productive as VB and in some ways more so, but isn't limited to a 
> single vendor's OS, deploying to Mac, Linux, iOS, Android, and Raspberry Pi 
> as well - with a Server version too."
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> 
> ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
> 
> 
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Re: The Future of LiveCode in Education


On 2/29/2016 1:25 PM, William Prothero wrote:

By the way, I too have pondered the popularity that Hypercard was
able to achieve and compared it to Livecode. Certainly, a subset of
livecode and hypercard are pretty identical. So, why isn’t it easier
to get excited about it?


HyperCard took off because it shipped free on every Mac. That's 
certainly the reason I started with it, because I never in a million 
years thought I'd like programming. But it was there on our new Mac so I 
started exploring. The language was easily grasped and there were dozens 
of examples to look at. I got hooked immediately.


If HC hadn't been there right in front of me I never would have touched 
it, no matter how many glowing reports I might have read about it 
elsewhere. I was positive that programming wasn't something I was suited 
for. I am also sure that's what happened with all the thousands of new 
HC users who never dreamed they could produce their own software.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

Richmond:
I also find it hard to appreciate the seriousness of the problem. Seems like 
much ado about very little.
Best,
Bill

> On Feb 29, 2016, at 11:45 AM, RM  wrote:
> 
> Whichever way one cuts things, the most widely used programming languages 
> such as PASCAL and C++
> are as FREE as the air. As long as a language remains Unfree it is unlikely 
> to be adopted widely.
> While Runtime Revolution / Livecode have, until comparatively recently, only 
> had a closed source version of their programming environment, they have 
> almost always had a "cheap way in" in the form of a lines-of-code-limited 
> version, or a stacks-only-version; and had they not they wouldn't have got as 
> far as they did before they released their open source version.
> 
> At the moment I cannot entirely understand what the 'problem' is. There is a 
> FREE version of Livecode
> which to all intents and purposes is a very large subset of an Unfree 
> version.  The FREE version is so
> powerful that any "hobbyist" (a very, very fuzzy category if ever there was: 
> a 'hobbyist' is a bit like the boy who buys a small box of Lego bits . . .) 
> should be fully satisfied.
> 
> Richmond.
> 
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Re: The Future of LiveCode in Education


William Prothero wrote:

> For those already familiar with other programming languages (I’m
> in that group), the syntax may look archaic and put folks off. It
> did me, at first. I was used to Fortran, Pascal, C, Lingo, etc,
> and the Hypercard syntax just seemed primitive compared to modern
> object-oriented syntax. BUT, when I looked at what Livecode was
> capable of, its future, and it’s features and lack of limitations
> that affected my goals, I became an avid user.

FWIW when I present LC at conferences I never mention HyperCard or 
HyperTalk, unless of course someone brings it up specifically during Q


Comparing a vibrant, living system to one whose owner chose to kill it 
rarely makes for a useful story. :)


Besides, most folks today have never used HyperCard, and it's getting 
ever rarer that people I meet have even heard of it.


I've found it better to compare it to things they know, e.g.:

"It's event-drive like JavaScript, but with more intuitive syntax, esp 
for object references: rather than constantly typing 
'document.getElementByID(tElemID)' I just type 'field 1'".


"It's at least as easy to learn as Python if not easier, but has GUI 
objects built in as direct language elements rather than tacked on later 
 as an afterthought through someone else's external package, so your UI 
code flows as smoothly as your business logic."


"It's as productive as VB and in some ways more so, but isn't limited to 
a single vendor's OS, deploying to Mac, Linux, iOS, Android, and 
Raspberry Pi as well - with a Server version too."


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

Whichever way one cuts things, the most widely used programming 
languages such as PASCAL and C++
are as FREE as the air. As long as a language remains Unfree it is 
unlikely to be adopted widely.
While Runtime Revolution / Livecode have, until comparatively recently, 
only had a closed source version of their programming environment, they 
have almost always had a "cheap way in" in the form of a 
lines-of-code-limited version, or a stacks-only-version; and had they 
not they wouldn't have got as far as they did before they released their 
open source version.


At the moment I cannot entirely understand what the 'problem' is. There 
is a FREE version of Livecode
which to all intents and purposes is a very large subset of an Unfree 
version.  The FREE version is so
powerful that any "hobbyist" (a very, very fuzzy category if ever there 
was: a 'hobbyist' is a bit like the boy who buys a small box of Lego 
bits . . .) should be fully satisfied.


Richmond.

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Hey-Ho and Off We Go with HTML5


So:

I made a stack with a button and 2 fields in LiveCode 8.0 DP 15 and a 
spot of
scripting in the button, and exported the thing as an HTML5 standalone, 
then opened
the generated page in Firefox, and (apart from the slightly squiffy 
aesthetics) the thing

looked and behaved exactly like the original stack.

Rocks!

So . . . . I am getting all revved-up to generate an HTML page for 
University students of my
wife's to do a gap-fill exercise, AND, having clicked on a "SUBMIT" 
button  to have the results

put into a merry text-file and e-mailed to my wife.

AND the question is: can anybody tell me how to send a text file 
generated in Livecode

to an email address?

Richmond.

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Re: The Future of LiveCode in Education

Stephen:
Wonderful work you’ve done with Livecode and medical education. FYI, there’s a 
forum topic at;
http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=107 

The forum addresses the topic of getting teachers involved. Your introductory 
book on livecode looks like just the ticket for new livecoders.

By the way, I too have pondered the popularity that Hypercard was able to 
achieve and compared it to Livecode. Certainly, a subset of livecode and 
hypercard are pretty identical. So, why isn’t it easier to get excited about 
it? I have some thoughts. First, there are other, competing platforms. Once a 
person learns one platform, they get “locked in” and find no reason to learn 
another. There is also the forest and trees effect, which you mention. That is 
the fewer options and commands in Hypercard compared to the 2,000 in Livecode. 
Livecode looks more intimidating than Hypercard did.

If you divide users between those experienced in programming, and those 
inexperienced in programming, there are going to be different challenges 
getting folks hooked. For those already familiar with other programming 
languages (I’m in that group), the syntax may look archaic and put folks off. 
It did me, at first. I was used to Fortran, Pascal, C, Lingo, etc, and the 
Hypercard syntax just seemed primitive compared to modern object-oriented 
syntax. BUT, when I looked at what Livecode was capable of, its future, and 
it’s features and lack of limitations that affected my goals, I became an avid 
user. For those who have no programming experience, I really don’t think the 
syntax will trigger the kind of resistance it did in me. For experienced 
programmers, it may require more of a hard sell. The widgets and powerful 
interface creation tools are very big, as far as I’m concerned. The open source 
version is wonderful too and removes an initial financial hurdle.

As was in Hypercard, I believe that educators and their students are a ripe 
pool of possible new LiveCode users. Also, your beginners book is a resource 
that should be put out in front so potential new users can find it. Perhaps, in 
your book, there could also be a chapter that dangles the advanced applications 
that could be, and have been built, to inspire further study.

Best,
Bill

William Prothero, Ph.D.
University of California, Santa Barbara, Emeritus
proth...@earthednet.org

> On Feb 29, 2016, at 7:33 AM, stgoldb...@aol.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does LiveCode need to do to significantly increase its audience among 
> teachers and students of computer programming?
> 
> 
> I  taught medical students for 25 years at the University of Miami School of 
> Medicine. LiveCode has provided an opportunity to further improve medical 
> education.
> 
> My students, as well as others around the USA, have appreciated these 
> efforts. I received the George Paff Award for Best Teacher 11 times at the 
> University of Miami School of Medicine. I also received an unprecedented 
> invitation to be the keynote speaker at the graduating class commencement of 
> the Washington University at St. Louis School of Medicine, one of the most 
> prestigious medical schools in the US. The reason for the invite was for 
> contributions to medical education, part of which included development of 
> educational software.
> 
> I am president of the Medmaster medical publishing company and have used 
> LiveCode to create and distribute many educational programs, some of which 
> are available free for download at www.medmaster.net/freedownloads.html, 
> while others of a more complex nature are incorporated into Medmaster books 
> (I provide links below for the LiveCode readers of this forum):
> 
> Atlas of Microbiology (free).  I created this LiveCode program to accompany 
> Medmaster’s book, Clinical Microbiology Made Ridiculously Simple, which is 
> the best-selling microbiology book in the US. It links to the internet for 
> pictures and descriptions of all microbial organisms and diseases.
> 
> Atlas of Human Diseases (free).  This LiveCode program encompasses over 
> 10,000 known diseases in the world, with links to pictures and text on the 
> Internet. It may well be the largest atlas of its kind, the equivalent of 
> many thousands of printed pages, encompassing the vast array human diseases, 
> hereditary and non-hereditary. It took only a few days of programming using 
> LiveCode once the disease list was put together.
> 
> Neurologic Localization. This LiveCode program accompanies my book Clinical 
> Neuroanatomy Made Ridiculously, which for many years has been a best-seller 
> in the field. It provides the student with a thorough approach to the anatomy 
> of the nervous system and localization of neurologic diseases, along with a 
> complete lab course and quiz in neurologic localization.
> 
> Heart Sounds & Images is a LiveCode program that accompanies Medmaster’s book 
> Clinical Cardiology Made Ridiculously Simple,

Open source, closed source, and the value of code

While doing some research on Xanadu and Memex this weekend I came across 
this video of Bill Atkinson which seemed relevant to some of our recent 
threads here about the value of code:


"HyperCard was always an authoring environment, it
 was never just browsing. I didn't separate the guys
 who consume the information from they guys who create
 it. I was open source before open source was cool,
 because you could open up any HyperCard stack, any
 button, and look at what it does inside.

"The primary requirement of the HyperTalk language was
 that it be readable by somebody that can look at it
 and see what was going on - 'Oh, on mouseUp, go to
 next card' - somebody could see that and maybe modify
 it a little bit.

"Every HyperCard stack that you got had buttons and
 things in it and people learned from each other.  It
 was kind of an open source programming environment
 because people exchanged HyperCard stacks.  It was
 sort of Github before Github."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roT9DhDPI9k


As we explore the relative merits of different licenses here, both 
proprietary and open source, I think it's helpful to remember how most 
of us got started:  we got a stack from a friend or a user group CD or 
from our local Wildcat BBS, we studied it, and we tweaked it.


Much of our learning came from experimenting with other people's stacks, 
and the ones we found especially useful were often useful because we 
could tailor them to fit our specific needs.


It isn't possible for any single code base to address all possible use 
cases.  And it isn't practical to rewrite every code base from scratch 
just to get the other 10% of functionality we need from it.


Imagine how small the Web might be today if not for open source, if 
every Web server had to be written entirely from scratch every time 
someone needed a small change, or pay tens of thousands of $$ to some 
company and wait months for the enhancement to be released.


The Web is rich and diverse because most of it is free and open, from 
the browser engines that render it to the router OSes that deliver it to 
the databases that store it to the applications that serve it.


Consider the world's most popular programming languages, as ranked on 
the TIOBE index:

http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index

Nearly every one of them is open source, and the few that aren't remain 
on the list only for historical reasons no new tool could reproduce, and 
they aren't growing.  With dev tools, growth is in open source.


There's still a vast range of opportunities for proprietary software for 
end-users, but for tools and infrastructure the growth of open source is 
both undeniable and unstoppable.


Better still, the relationship between the two is largely symbiotic: 
much of the funding for FOSS projects comes from companies who earn at 
least part of their revenue from closed source, and they're able to earn 
that money by building their companies around tools and infrastructure 
provided by the open source world.


Both proprietary and open source software are growing, rapidly, with no 
sign of slowing in the foreseeable future.


And LiveCode is dual-licensed, able to play a valuable role for each.

When you're running a business that pays the bills from per-user 
licenses, LC's Indy and other commercial licenses are among the smallest 
expenses a company will have, even at the new rates.


But if you're not running a business, perhaps ask yourself: what is in 
the code that's more valuable closed than open?


I've never written anything that any reasonably smart person couldn't 
reproduce if they really wanted to.  The value of my products isn't in 
the code alone, but in a complete solution that includes documentation, 
support, and strong relationships with customers that put them in the 
driver's seat of feature development.  Sometimes I write some nice code, 
but if I'm being honest with myself I have to admit I'm not exactly 
splitting the atom. :)


When code is shared many good things result.  The very least that 
happens is that some young soul learns from it, and gets inspired to go 
on to make great things.  After all, learning from other people's 
HyperCard stacks is how most of us here got started.


For consultants, sharing code builds a reputation as a source of solutions.

For businesses, sharing code opens the door for enhancements from others 
so your app can grow in capabilities beyond your own developer resources.


I met Ryan Sipes of the Mycroft AI project at the SoCal Linux Expo a few 
weeks ago, and he says that what confirmed his hunch that taking his 
product open source was a good idea what when he got his first pull 
request just 20 minutes after putting it on Github:




Open source isn't for everyone, and even when it is there are many 
licenses for many goals.


But when the goal is

Apple Automator

Is it possible to launch Apple Automator shell scripts from LC app?

thanks,

Glen

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Re: LC 8 hard question...

Glen Bojsza wrote:

> After reviewing all the previous releases of Livecode I am trying to
> determine when LC 8 will start getting to RC and then how long from
> there to stable.
>
> My question is hard since there is no true and fast answer on how the
> development goes ...anything can cause it to derail.
>
> But does anybody think it is reasonable to get to a stable release by
> July this year?

Back in September I predicted that LC 8 might reach RC1 in March.  I've 
read no specific time estimates from the team, but given the good 
progress on a wide range of areas I'd guess that RC1 would likely occur 
no later than April, and would feel reasonably comfortable* guessing 
that a July estimate for Stable would seem achievable.

* Any projection of ship dates from any one about any software is, 
ultimately, a form of guesswork.  We have 50 years of ACM literature to 
back that up, and insightful authors from Fred Brooks to Steven 
McConnell to explain why this unpredictability persists.  Until when a 
system ships can we know the ship date.  Prior to that the inevitable 
unpredictable things that define our universe and the software 
development tasks we do within it will come into play.  I always try to 
keep this in mind with all software from all vendors.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web

 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: [Blog] Development speed comparison LC7 vs 8

2016-02-29 Thread rjd318

Just curious, how long would something like this take to do on some other 
platforms? Anyone have experience doing such things and if so, are you 
impressed?

> On Feb 29, 2016, at 10:29 AM, Heather Laine  wrote:
> 
> Dear List folks,
> 
> Very nifty video in this blog post:
> 
> https://livecode.com/a-mini-web-browser-in-under-15-minutes-sample-stack-included/
>  
> 
> 
> Love to hear your comments.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Heather
> 
> Heather Laine
> Customer Services Manager
> LiveCode Ltd
> www.livecode.com
> 
> 
> 
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LC 8 hard question...