html5 - javascriptHandlers

2022-03-18 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
With the Browser widget javascript can send messages to the parent app,
triggering some Livecodescript in the parent.

Is there an equivalent in a html5 deployment?  It seems that in html5
deployment Livecodescript can call to the Javascript of the parent browser
by "do somestuff() as Javascript".

I am sure the equivalent of javascriptHandlers must exist but I can't find
out how to make the call.

Regards,
Bernard
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Re: 10.0.0-dp-2 html5 and liburlLastRHHeaders()

2022-03-18 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi Mark

It turns out it is an anomaly due to CORS.  There were so many steps
involved in trying to isolate what was going on (juggling different
deployments, different servers). Eventually I got there.

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=23633

I wonder if there are a whole host of CORS issues which Javascript
developers already know to look out for.

Regards, Bernard

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 11:25 AM Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> As I said, LC is not stripping anything - we are returning what JS
> returns.
>
>
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Re: debugging javascript in html5

2022-03-18 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Here's a peculiarity I haven't seen mentioned before.  I am trying to test
the viability of the idea of a function to call back to LC and provide
debugging info.

Assume you create a LC function lclog(pmsg,pval) and you put a breakpoint
in the IDE inside that function body.  Set the htmltext of a browser widget
to the code below, set the javascriptHandlers of the browser to contain the
word: lclog . Your browser widget will have a button 'clickme'.
1) On clicking that button the JS alerts ALL trigger first.
2) After they have fired the first call to lclog() runs, and the second
call to lclog() never runs.



function lcxhr(method, url) {

alert('lcxhr called');

var json = JSON.stringify({ name: "John", surname: "Smith"});

liveCode.lclog('json created', json);

alert('you see this alert before the above call to lclog()');

liveCode.lclog('exit js function','');

}

http://192.168.0.34:8080/tabs/echo');" />


In case that html gets mangled by the uselist software, here's the above
html base64encoded:


PGh0bWw+PGhlYWQ+PHNjcmlwdD5mdW5jdGlvbiBsY3hocihtZXRob2QsIHVybCkgewphbGVy

dCgnbGN4aHIgY2FsbGVkJyk7IAp2YXIganNvbiA9IEpTT04uc3RyaW5naWZ5KHsgIG5hbWU6

ICJKb2huIiwgIHN1cm5hbWU6ICJTbWl0aCJ9KTsKbGl2ZUNvZGUubGNsb2coJ2pzb24gY3Jl

YXRlZCcsIGpzb24pOwphbGVydCgneW91IHNlZSB0aGlzIGFsZXJ0IGJlZm9yZSB0aGUgYWJv

dmUgY2FsbCB0byBsY2xvZygpJyk7CmxpdmVDb2RlLmxjbG9nKCdleGl0IGpzIGZ1bmN0aW9u

JywnJyk7Cn08L3NjcmlwdD48L2hlYWQ+PGJvZHk+PGlucHV0IGlkPSJjbGlja01lIiB0eXBl

PSJidXR0b24iIHZhbHVlPSJjbGlja21lIiBvbmNsaWNrPSJsY3hocignJywnaHR0cDovLzE5

Mi4xNjguMC4zNDo4MDgwL3RhYnMvZWNoby50Y2wnKTsiIC8+PC9ib2R5PjwvaHRtbD4=


So we can't rely on the timing of anything returned to a javascripHandler.
Moreover, once a javascriptHandler has fired there can't be anything else
that runs.  Quite a limitation IMO.

Regards

Bernard

>
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debugging javascript in html5

2022-03-18 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Considering the html5 enhancements might well be the biggest thing in LC
10, I can foresee a whole world of pain when it comes to us debugging
Javascript interactions.

Without access to all the development tools that come in modern browsers
how is any interaction of any complexity between LC and JS going to be
debugged?  I think at the bare minimum there needs to be JS code loaded on
the default page of the html5 app launched from the IDE through  which JS
code users would easily/transparently be able to feed logging/debugging
information in _their_  JS code back to the LC app running as html5.

I'm running into these problems already in trying to work out why
libUrlLastRHHeaders() is not returning all headers.  I don't think I'm
doing anything particularly complex - yet debugging normal JS in a browser
is easy, debugging in LC is easy, but the LC/JS/LC interactions are a black
box.  IMO this lack of insight to what is going on is going to be an
 impediment to LC users taking advantage of the new html5 platform.  I feel
like I'm working with browsers from circa 1999, before the time of the
Venkman debugger that came from Mozilla.

Even a default JS function
   liveCode.log('variable =' + variable)
which was set up to send its parameter to the LC html5 app running in the
browser would be helpful.  But TBH I suspect more detailed consideration
needs to be given to this area.  I think it was 2015 when the html5
deployment was first released. Seven years later and this is finally
getting to something that could be useful, and which certainly would mark
out Livecode from almost all other development tools.

Maybe others have already worked out how to get insight into what the JS is
doing in the context of a html5 app.  If so, I'd be interested to know how
they are debugging these interactions.

Regards
Bernard
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Re: 10.0.0-dp-2 html5 and liburlLastRHHeaders()

2022-03-17 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi Mark

Thank you for your response. However, I just tried in the Javascript
console of Safari, Chrome and Firefox and the local test server to which I
am POSTing  is returning the headers (as LC does when running not as HTML5).

Here's the JS I used. As you can see, it's a simple POST rather than
anything multipart.


var json = JSON.stringify({ name: "John", surname: "Smith"});

var http = new XMLHttpRequest();

var url = 'http://192.168.0.34:8080/tabs/echo';

http.open('POST', url, true);

http.setRequestHeader('Content-type', 'application/json; charset=utf-8');

var result = 'comm with server failed';

http.onreadystatechange = function() {

   if (http.readyState == 4 && http.status == 200) {

   result=http.responseText;

   console.log(result);

   console.log( http.getAllResponseHeaders() );

   }

}

http.send(json);

>>
access-control-allow-origin: *
connection: keep-alive
content-length: 56
content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:53:21 GMT
server: NaviServer/4.99.20
<<

So there is something else going on between LC's libUrlLastRHHeaders() and
LC's interaction with the JS XMLHttpRequest().  This something is stripping
out most of the headers.

My next step is to turn that JS into a function that I can call from LC
within the context of the browser to see whether the full headers are
returned to LC from that JS call.

Regards
Bernard

On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 9:58 AM Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>
> We already use that JS API to implement lastRHHeaders - we just return
> the value it returns verbatim.
>
> Therefore, I'm guessing this is something the API is doing. The only
> thing which may give a hint is (in that doc):
>
>'For multipart requests, this returns the headers from the current
> part of the request, not from the original channel.'
>
> Not sure whether that applies in this case or not (except that POST is
> generally used in multipart requests I think...)
>
> Anyway, file a bug with an example if you can and we'll take a look.
>
>
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Re: 10.0.0-dp-2 html5 and liburlLastRHHeaders()

2022-03-16 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
If one could get hold in Livecodescript of the Javascript Request object
that was sent to the server, then one might be able to get hold of the
Response headers.

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/XMLHttpRequest/getAllResponseHeaders

My guess is that the shim is getting hold of this information but for some
strange reason it is stripping out most of the headers.

>
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Re: 10.0.0-dp-2 html5 and liburlLastRHHeaders()

2022-03-16 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
With some servers the cache-control header is returned too.

It looks to me that there is some mysterious shim that exists between
libUrl calls and Javascript, and this shim is the (likely) reason why only
some headers are being returned to the app. Does anyone know what is going
on here?

I am trying to find the "HTML5 Deployment" guide, which supposedly lists
the limitations. I can't find this HTML5 Deployment guide from a Google
search nor within the IDE (where it supposedly lives) nor on livecode.com.
Here's what the Release Notes say: For more information, please see the
"HTML5 Deployment" guide in the LiveCode IDE.

Anyone else able to locate this document? Maybe they mean the general
Deployment section in the Livecode Guides (which does have a HTML5
subsection). Considering that the subsection within that Deployment guide
mentions Emscripten, I have my doubts that it is the place where we are to
find accurate information about how HTML5 deployment works with the 10.x
version.  I'm at a loss as to how we are to provide feedback on these great
new features coming in version 10 if there is scant documentation on what
they are supposed to do or not do.

I've already experienced a situation (on Windows and Mac) where using the
Test button fails to launch the app in a browser (my guess is something
wrong with LC's httpd service).  That doesn't look good. After several
repeated attempts with the Test button the app eventually launches in the
browser.

Regards
Bernard

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 8:08 PM Bernard Devlin  wrote:

> The only headers returned from a POST command are
>   content-length
>   content-type
> (in the IDE all the headers sent by the server are returned by this
> function).
>
> Seems a bit strange to me, as there may well be other important
> meta-information carried in headers (for example, Date:, at the very least
> could be an important header).  I can't understand the logic behind these
> other headers being stripped out.
>
> This oddity is not documented in the Dictionary nor the Release Notes.
> Should this be submitted as a bug?
>
> Regards
> Bernard
>
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10.0.0-dp-2 html5 and liburlLastRHHeaders()

2022-03-15 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
The only headers returned from a POST command are
  content-length
  content-type
(in the IDE all the headers sent by the server are returned by this
function).

Seems a bit strange to me, as there may well be other important
meta-information carried in headers (for example, Date:, at the very least
could be an important header).  I can't understand the logic behind these
other headers being stripped out.

This oddity is not documented in the Dictionary nor the Release Notes.
Should this be submitted as a bug?

Regards
Bernard
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Re: [ANN] Release 10.0.0 DP-1

2021-11-23 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Thanks Panos. That kind of works. It always opens in the default browser
i.e. trying to select another browser as the test target has no effect.  Is
this a known bug?

>From test/save with browser closed (compile to standalone, then let IDE
launch browser):
Load time LC 10 - 5 secs
Load time LC 9.6.1 - 7 secs

Loading same saved stack with browser already open (re-using URL):
Load time LC 10 - 2 secs
Load time LC 9.6.1 - 5 secs

I tested with both Brave and Edge, but couldn't detect any difference in
load speed between them.

These tests were just wall clock time.

On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 3:48 PM panagiotis m via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hello Bernard,
>
> Trying to open the local html file will fail due to CORS - Firefox may or
> may not work - I think it needs some tweaks, and not sure if this is still
> possible in the latest versions. We probably need to update this lesson.
>
> The correct way to test is to use the Development -> Test Target ->  your browser> and then Development -> Test
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Panos
> --
>
>
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Re: [ANN] Release 10.0.0 DP-1

2021-11-22 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I'm not sure this merits a bug report (just yet).  I suspect I'm doing
something wrong.

I installed LC 10 on Windows 10 and wanted to see how much difference
webassembly made to the loading speed. However, after trying on 3 browsers
(Firefox, Chrome, Edge), it fails to load. On each browser the error in the
JS console is the same.

>>
both async and sync fetching of the wasm failed

failed to asynchronously prepare wasm: RuntimeError: abort(both async and
sync fetching of the wasm failed). Build with -s ASSERTIONS=1 for more info.
<<

Has anyone got it working?  I just tried opening the local html file
created by the Standalone Builder.  I even followed the Firefox tip in the
last comments on this lesson.
https://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/800867-how-do-i-put-my-first-app-on-the-web

Regards, Bernard.

On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 2:30 PM panagiotis m via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hello Mike,
>
> I believe you should be able to use Xcode 12.5 with LiveCode on MacOS 12.x.
>
> LC does not actually use Xcode, it just needs the iOS SDKs and some command
> line tools. So the following should work:
>
> 1. Download Xcode 12.5.xip from Apple's downloads area
> 2. Expand the .xip file
> 3. Run in the Terminal: sudo xcode-select -s /path/to/Xcode12.5.app, e.g.
> sudo xcode-select -s /Users/mike/Xcodes/Xcode12.5.app
> 4. Run in the Terminal: sudo xcode-select --install
> 5. In the LC Prefs, add the path to Xcode12.5. Remove other paths to
> Xcode13, if any.
> 6. Try to build an iOS standalone
>
> >Any chance we'll get XCode 13.1 in DP2?
> Yes, it is quite likely. We plan to add support for Xcode13.1 in LC 9.6.6
> RC-1, and then merge this to LC 10.0 DP-2.
>
> Kind regards,
> Panos
>
>
> On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 at 23:02, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > FYI, XC 12.5.x is being a bugger with MacOS 12.x for new hardware. Any
> > chance we'll get XCode 13.1 in DP2?
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Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

2021-11-12 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I was having problems with SE on Windows randomly causing crashes just by
clicking in the text are of SE.

When I switched off all the bling, I never had another crash like that. I
plan to slowly re-introduce the bling to see if I can identify which part
causes the crashes.

Regards, Bernard
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Re: [OT] M1 Mac Mini USB problems

2021-10-28 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I use a USB KVM to switch keyboard, mouse, monitor between M1 Mac Mini and
a PC (the KVM is powered by USB even though it comes with an optional
separate power source).  If there was a general defectiveness in the Mac's
USB support, I'd expect it to appear in this kind of scenario (as I switch
dozens of times each day).  In more than 6 months of usage, I haven't seen
a single problem. Admittedly I haven't (yet) tried mounting an external USB
hard drive.

 A far more frequent problem for me is that the PC network adapter loses
its connection, even though the machine is connected by cable.

Regards, Bernard


On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 4:46 PM Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I am having problems with my new 2020 Mac Mini's USB ports. The new time
> machine disk will only backup a gig or two before erroring out. Then the
> disk is then is not mountable. All sorts of errors when trying first aid or
> trying to mount it via first aid. Sent the disk back and the new one did
> the same thing. I can init it on the win 10 system and then the Mac Mini
> sees it again. I thought it was an unpowered USB-A hub issue. I then got
> the power supply for the hub and same thing. I bought an USB-C hub and
> again same thing. Plugged the Drive directly into the Mac Mini and same
> problems. My USB keyboard/mouse will not work reliably using either the
> USB-A or C hub. It seems that the Mac Mini's USB HW/SW is flakey.
>
> Has anyone else seen/heard anything like this?
>
> This is very annoying after dropping over a yard and a half on this thing
> to replace my perfectly running Mac Book Pro so I could upgrade to Big Sur.
>
>
>
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdim...@evergreeninfo.net
>
>
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Re: Mudslinging and consequences - a change to our policy

2021-10-28 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Thank heavens this policy change has finally come.  Baseless  accusations
can end up affecting perception. Surrounded by negative criticism one can
actually blame LC for defects that exist in oneself.  It has happened to
me, where I've tracked down the defect in my own work just before I was
going to write to the list and complain about a defect in LC. IMO the Forum
is even worse for this behaviour.  I think it's a product of the way Forum
software works.  People can search for something (not necessarily intending
any malice), and in their search uncover some past series of complaints,
and resurrect past complaints which again become the focus of the people
using the Forum.

That's not to say there are no defects. There's no software on the planet
that has no defects. I have had problems where I have been unable to
provide a recipe for a bug report. I simply couldn't detect a reproducible
pattern (and sometimes it appears no-one else has seen a particular
defect). But I understand the absolute necessity for a bug report to have a
reproducible recipe. In these cases I have to patient, committed and cast
my net of investigation further until I can find a reproducible pattern and
it might take weeks or months before a pattern emerges.

The one thing I've never doubted is the integrity of the people who work
for LC Ltd.

On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 1:00 PM Heather Laine via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Dear List Folks,
>
> This list is intended for users to help each other in the use of LiveCode.
> Sometimes LC staff get involved and help out here also. It can be a great
> place to constructively discuss improvements. It is not a place to take
> potshots at each other, at LiveCode or at LiveCode staff. In the future, if
> a list member is perceived to be doing this by myself or by a reasonable
> set of other list members, they will be banned.
>
> For the avoidance of doubt, by taking potshots I mean:
>
> Accusations of untruths, lying or lack of integrity
> Persistently pointing out flaws in LiveCode without any positive
> suggestions on resolution
> Namecalling of any kind
> General rudeness - please re-read your post before sending and check it
> for tone
>
> Everyone is entitled to their opinion. What everyone is not entitled to do
> is express unfounded negative opinions about LiveCode and its staff on this
> list, which is run by LiveCode, for LiveCode, and for the benefit of
> LiveCode's users.
>
> I trust I make myself clear. This warning will not be repeated.
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Heather
>
>
> Heather Laine
> Customer Services Manager
> LiveCode Ltd
> www.livecode.com
>
>
>
>
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Re: OT: Priorities (was: Re: Stack with the same name loop)

2021-10-24 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I don't see much benefit in coulda, woulda, shoulda.

Tcl was so prominent it was actually listed in the HTML 4 reference spec as
one of three possible languages which could be used to write dynamic HTML
(VBScript, Tcl, Javascript).

https://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/scripts.html

Tcl being widely-deployed, cross-platform and free didn't lead to it being
used within web browsers. Despite all the apparent conditions necessary for
success it sank into obscurity.  It doesn't mean it's not the best thing
for job X, Y, Z, it just means few people are exploiting the benefits it
offers.  Same for Livecode, IMO.

"Men make history, just not on grounds of their own choosing".

Regards, Bernard

On Sat, Oct 23, 2021 at 10:36 PM Paul McClernan via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> > What seems to come out of your interesting historical observations is
> > that HyperCard went "wrong" when people had to start paying for it.
> >
>
>  I think it was a series of things that went wrong with HyperCard.
>
> Interestingly enough WINE (open source) and CodeWeavers (prop.) seem to
> > manage to co-exist and help each other successfully.
>
>
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Re: IDE crashing on Windows 10

2021-10-18 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi Curry

Thanks. It had occurred to me that it could be the SE bling that was
causing the crashes. So I had switched off almost all of the bling. The
crashes on clicking within the text field stopped after that - only a day
or so now, but I haven't seen that kind of crash since I switched off most
of the bling.

However, yesterday I went to click "File/Save" on the IDE's main menu, and
the IDE crashed (wiping out the work I was just trying to save).  So I'm
not sure if this is the same problem or a different one.  If it had been
the File menu of the SE itself, I might be inclined to think it was the
same bug. But given it was the main File menu, I'm less inclined.

I am wondering what is unique about my situation that LC is so flaky on
Windows.  No other app I run crashes like this.  I honestly don't believe
anyone who was new to LC would continue to use the tool if it crashed the
way it crashes on me.

If I don't get any more random crashes for a few days I plan to re-enable
the bling and see if they return.  I've switched off Geoff's Navigator too.
So now I'm running with just a standard install. If the random crashes
return then I'll create a new user and install a later version under that
username.

I've checked and it's not an out-of-memory situation (the machine has 8gb
and only 75% of that is in use).

Regards, Bernard


On Mon, Oct 18, 2021 at 5:59 AM Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Bernard:
>
>  > I can be in the Script Editor typing away.
>  > I move the mouse to click on another line
>  > of the script. Blammo. LC crashes.
>  > Any idea how this can be pinned down?
>
> I believe I've seen this particular crash only twice,
> each time an isolated incident with no obvious pattern.
>
>  > Yesterday I had the IDE crash five or six times
>  > in the middle of editing a script.
>
> With that kind of recurrence, a recipe should be doable!
> After you finish some work, I would disable any workaround
> and try to keep triggering it to find the problem.
>
> BTW, what SE "bling" options do you have enabled?
> (I call them "bling": flashy and performance-expensive.)
> I only use Control Structure Completion and Autoformat.
> Colorization is also enabled, it seems OK.
>
>  > LC 9.6.1
>
> Have you tried a more recent LC version?
> A few crashes have been fixed lately.
> Probably not this one, but worth a try.
>
> (And several more are still with us,
> despite the amusing skepticism
> of a few "crash deniers" who later
> casually admit they have crashes too!) :D
>
> I still need to report another crash/hang pair,
> but they show up on one particular project
> so I'll have to do it when I'm back on that work.
> Hope it happens enough to recipe. (Or not at all.)
>
> Custom Software Development
> "Biblical Methods, Better Results"
> Christian LiveCode Training and Consulting
> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
>
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Re: IDE crashing on Windows 10

2021-10-16 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Here's what I decided to do. I've put an intercept handler in a frontscript
that doesn't allow mouseDown or mouseDoubleDown to pass if the target is
the scriptEditor field.

Those msgs are only sent when mousebutton 3 is used, so I'm disciplining
myself to only click with that button in the script editor.  If the crashes
stop, then it's one of these being handled somewhere in the message path.
Or it's some general defect with clicking in that field (with the normal
buttons) - that will be harder for me to workaround.  Yesterday I had the
IDE crash five or six times in the middle of editing a script.

I'm pretty sure the crashes have all been when the click happens with
button 1 (that's how I'd normally click in the script editor).  Using
button 3 might at least stop the crashes.
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IDE crashing on Windows 10

2021-10-15 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
LC 9.6.1

I can be in the Script Editor typing away. I move the mouse to click on
another line of the script. Blammo. LC crashes.

Any idea how this can be pinned down?  I can't see any pattern.  The only
plugin open is Geoff's Navigator. There's only a few tabs open in the SE.
The total size of all scripts in the stack is probably 1000  lines.

I'm not doing anything fancy with fields or images. The portion I'm working
on is just posting to a URL, then calling jsonToArray on the results.

It's baffling me. And it doesn't look good for a professional tool.   I've
seen this kind of thing before with red bullet breakpoints (just clicking
on one of those to set/unset it) could cause the IDE to crash.

Regards, Bernard
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Re: Android SDK install without Android Studio (LC 9.6.5 App Bundles)

2021-10-15 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I'm glad to hear that.

I don't think my instructions were easy to follow.  AFAIK Klaus was the
only person able to benefit from them unaided. Others I had to walk through
a debugging process as they either couldn't follow the instructions or they
had a new problem which I hadn't yet encountered. TBH I dreaded offering to
help anyone else because it could be a multi-day process.

On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 9:20 AM panagiotis m via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> So, we can update the lesson to offer the simpler option as outlined by
> Ralph.
>
>
>
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Re: Android SDK install without Android Studio (LC 9.6.5 App Bundles)

2021-10-15 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
One has to wonder why, if that is so simple, LC Ltd recommend that people
install the full Android Studio.  That is the only advice they provide on
setting things up for Android development.

You only have to look at the Lesson to see the problems people have with
the existing procedure.  There are 86 comments on that Lesson. I've spent
days on the Forum helping people out with Android Studio/LC config problems.

https://lessons.livecode.com/m/4069/l/985962-livecode-and-android-studio

Regards, Bernard


>
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Re: Webview scrolling

2021-10-09 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Are you using mobileSetKeyboardDisplay "pan"?

I found a bug with that too though.

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=23245

On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 2:21 AM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I told a web designer I'd ask here to see if anyone has ideas. I'm
> displaying a web page with a
> form in a browser widget. On Android, when I tap into one of the lower
> form fields, the browser
> content does not scroll up and the keyboard covers the field you're trying
> to type into. There
> are two or three entry fields at the bottom that do that.
>
> On iOS it scrolls up automatically so there's no problem. Android doesn't
> move at all. You can
> manually scroll to the bottom but not beyond it, so the lower fields are
> obscured.
>
> Anyone here know how to fix that? The designer has tinkered with margins
> and padding but that
> isn't working.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay
>
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Re: OT: Priorities (was: Re: Stack with the same name loop)

2021-10-07 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
At least the new licensing model should allow LC to prioritise based on
what customers use.

IMO the open source initiative was the single biggest mistake LC Ltd made.
With that drain on resources over hopefully they can get to work on fixing
some of the outstanding deficiencies.
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Re: Stack with the same name loop

2021-10-07 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I guess it comes down to what different people are doing with LC.

I get the erroneous "this script has been altered externally" message about
3 times a year.
I never get the "A stack with the same name as the one you are trying to
load" unless I really am opening two stacks with the same name.

In my own work I always try to work with the long ID of every control. It's
the least ambiguous thing one can do. The IDE should do the same.

On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 12:45 AM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On the bright side, it isn't as confusing as the one that tells you the
> script has been changed in an external editor, even if it wasn't, and then
> you don't know whether to keep what you're looking at or take a chance and
> reload. You can lose work by choosing the wrong button.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
>
>
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Re: Starter Plan offer - China users

2021-09-28 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Somehow I doubt that the process will be so crude that (e.g. Livecode.com
DNS resolution fails) all standalones built with the Starter Plan would
stop working.  I'd imagine that the check for validity would happen for
several days/weeks before an app stopped working. It surely isn't in LC
Ltd's interest to implement this in a crude fashion.

My experience in Asia 20 years ago was that no-one paid for software. There
were huge computing shopping malls where DVDs of pirated products from
Microsoft, Adobe, etc. could be bought for $3 per DVD (often the same DVD
would contain multiple applications that we'd be paying $1000s for).

On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 12:41 PM Andre Garzia via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> To be honest, if “always being able to launch standalone” is a concern for
> the developer, then they shouldn’t be using the Starter Plan.
>
> In my understanding the Starter Plan is a personal experience, it is
> available so that one can learn programming and use it to build their own
> tools. If someone wants to ship software, they should be using Standard
> Plan or above.
>
>
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Re: Android SDK lesson

2021-09-20 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
My advice to LC Ltd was: since Android Studio incorporates its own JDK and
LC Ltd's official advice is to install Android Studio, then the simplest
path is to have the IDE rely on the paths of that bundled JDK to setup and
configure the LC/Android interactions.

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 12:43 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi Bernard,
>
> I did and it says not a valid Android SDK path - and yet B4A accepts it
> without any protestations.
>
> I have posted to the thread you were helping people at omn the forum.
>
> We have to get a definitive "no pain" way of installation as it seems there
> are different problems on different platforms.
>
> Lagi
>
>
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Re: Android SDK lesson

2021-09-19 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi Lagi

I'd suggest following the Lesson as the most straightforward route.  Let us
know if that doesn't work.

Regards, Bernard

On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 8:17 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> I will look for a thread by you and expect that it should be the latest
> unless you say otherwise - you didn't say if it works on the latest yet
> though - which version of indy should I use?
>
> Regards Lagi
>
>
>
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Re: Android SDK lesson

2021-09-18 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Good luck with that. For the last two people I helped on the Forum with
that issue, it turned out that Google had provided a version of Android
Studio where key build tools were missing. I discovered this after days of
investigation in trying to help people get their setup working and after I
uploaded a 300mb zip file to the cloud which the user used to replace the
relevant folder in his Android Studio installation. Google broke AS on both
Linux and OSX (and possibly Windows too).

You can see the big yellow warning callouts in the Lesson to which you
link. There's probably more replies to that Livecode Lesson than any
other.  I've advised LC Ltd on what I think they should do to simply the
install/setup for Android development.

Considering that Google broke the later versions of their tool and Google
hide the unbroken versions (not to mention the lunacy of Google's
naming-numbering), you are not going to find a one button solution from LC
that works around all those issues.

Regards, Bernard


On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 5:01 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I have not compiled for Android for nearly 3 years now and Ive had new
> machines. I want to install the SDK and I remember the
> problems I had originally - so to save my mental health
>
> Can someone (Panos?) point me to the LATEST lessons for the latest version
> that will install with 1 press of  a button please (sarcasm).
>
> I have the lesson here
>
> https://lessons.livecode.com/m/2571/l/625198-livecode-and-android-studio
>
> But it mentions Java 8 and to uninstall 9 and 10 (I have none installed on
> this machine)
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Regards Lagi
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Re: M1 Mac possible problem

2021-09-15 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
No problems that I could see.

On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 6:18 AM Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi to all those that did a test of my Music In the Air program some days
> ago on your Mac.
>
>
>
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Re: M1 Mac possible problem

2021-09-10 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I tried it on M1.  After selecting "English" the next screen is in Chinese.
However, going beyond that it is in English. I couldn't detect any
problems. I went through half a dozen screens. The only one that didn't
load was the Glossary, but a dialogue came up saying that wasn't available
in this version.

On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 6:57 AM Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> Would someone who has an M1 try running it and letting me know what
> happens?
>
>
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Re: AW: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

2021-09-09 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi Lagi

I just went back and repeated my steps from a couple of days ago.

New start for IDE, new stack, pasted in the same 8,000 lines as a comment.
And this time there was no slow down. So it does look like any such
problems are less predictable than my initial test suggested. I toggled on
then off all the options in the Script Editor related to autocomplete, etc.
And no matter what state they were in made no difference.  In the light of
this unreproduceability - how can LC be expected to identify/fix this
problem?   It may not even be within their control and certainly they can't
start to spend resources investigating it if the professional programmers
using LC on Win10 can't identify a predicable pattern.

I took my 8,000 lines of text and re-started the IDE multiple times. And
then I added 50% more to the comment. It does seem that the longer the
script is the more likely that your treacle problem is going to appear.
Perhaps if you tried this you could come up with a more definite pattern
and if so, then LC could look at why it is that a 8000, 12000, 18000 line
script causes a slow down.  With 12,000 lines even switching off all the
Edit/Options made no improvement: adding a return to a line took 3 seconds
for the screen to update.

What happens if you have a 24,000 line script? Do you get a predictable
pattern? Is it always slow?  Once you get a predictable recipe then LC Ltd
have something they can work on. Personally I'd find a 12,000 line script
really hard to navigate. But until LC Ltd specify that there's a length to
how long a script can be, there's no reason why you shouldn't have 12,000
line scripts.

Yesterday my Win10 laptop totally froze. I had open only two programmes: MS
OneNote and Chrome.  Even ctrl-alt-delete did nothing. I couldn't even
bring up task manager to see what could possibly be using all the
resources. After minutes of waiting for it to respond, I went to remove
battery and power cable (normal power button is set to hibernate not power
off), and suddenly it started to respond again. When I worked in tech
support I was the star problem solver. And now I've over 20 years more
experience with computing, but these days Windows 10 leaves me scratching
my head. MS have done some great things (WSL is one of them).

In my experience the weird behaviour I experience with Win10 is much, much
rarer on a Mac (I can't remember an incident in 20 years of using a variety
of Macs). On a different Win10 machine I have a well-know SQL editor.
Whenever it asks if I want to apply an update to it and I click "no", it
crashes. It's never been updated since I installed it. But this behaviour
only started a few months ago. To me that's really weird. When something
works I don't upgrade because it works as is.

Regards, Bernard

On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 11:59 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi Bernard,
>
>
> I didn't make myself clear - it can work for hours with no slowdown at
> 13,000 lines on an older computer there is just no pattern.
>
> Lagi
>
> On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 18:54, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > I pasted 8000 lines of text into Script Editor on Windows (just 1 large
> > block comment).  On typing chars take a couple of seconds to appear once
> > there is that much text.  Cut it down to 800 lines and it's fine.
> >
> > With 8000 lines switch off "live errors" and the slow typing issue is
> gone.
> >
> > I've asked Erik to try with 8000 line comment on his 32GB rig, since he
> has
> > no problems. He might have to increase the size of the text in that field
> > to 12000 or 16000, but I suspect eventually he too will get your treacle.
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:52 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > When it works it works - I cut the main stack to 7000 lines and still
> get
> > > the slowdown.
> > >
> > > When it slows down its the same treacle/quicksand/molasses whether the
> > > machine is a 10th gen with 16g or an 8gig pentium - when its fast its
> > fast
> > > on both - no consistency
> > >
> > > Lagi
> > >
> > >
> > ___
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> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
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> >
>
>
> --
> KIndest Regards Lagi
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Re: SE Show Globals inverted

2021-09-08 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Yes. I've also seen crashes on non-conditional breakpoints.  I literally
save before any test run. Then at suitable junctures I intercept savestack
(+ controlKey down) to write the stack out as Json + script only stack and
commit it all to my VCS.

But again I haven't (yet) noticed a pattern with these things. I did notice
that the remote debugger prevents all IDE stack breakpoints from working
until the app is closed on a test device.  For a long time I couldn't
understand why breakpoints had stopped working and why no-one else was
having this problem.  Then finally it struck me that there may only be a
small group of us using remote debugger (+ Android).

On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 8:50 PM Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> And while we're confessing laziness, my more shameful confession is about
> a
> crashing bug when using conditional breakpoints. I've become used to being
> very wary as soon as I start using these, and saving very often. Have
> others
> seen this issue?
>
>
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Re: SE Show Globals inverted

2021-09-08 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I've seen it for years too. I never worked out what caused it.  But I'm an
inveterate user of the message box when debugging. I will look out for a
pattern to it now.

On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 6:32 PM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> This has been going on for years but I never reported it because... lazy.
> For me, it happens when I'm stepping through a handler and I change or
> query something in the message box.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> On September 8, 2021 11:25:24 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
>  wrote:
>
> > Here's a new one. I've noticed this before, that globals were appearing
> > when show globals checkbox was not hilited. I just noticed that during
> this
> > condition, checking the show globals checkbox hides the globals! LOL!
> I'll
> > toss up a bug report later.
> >
> > Bob S
> >
> >
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Re: AW: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

2021-09-08 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I pasted 8000 lines of text into Script Editor on Windows (just 1 large
block comment).  On typing chars take a couple of seconds to appear once
there is that much text.  Cut it down to 800 lines and it's fine.

With 8000 lines switch off "live errors" and the slow typing issue is gone.

I've asked Erik to try with 8000 line comment on his 32GB rig, since he has
no problems. He might have to increase the size of the text in that field
to 12000 or 16000, but I suspect eventually he too will get your treacle.

On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:52 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> When it works it works - I cut the main stack to 7000 lines and still get
> the slowdown.
>
> When it slows down its the same treacle/quicksand/molasses whether the
> machine is a 10th gen with 16g or an 8gig pentium - when its fast its fast
> on both - no consistency
>
> Lagi
>
>
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Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

2021-09-07 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi Martin

I'm interested in the web assembly for HTML5.  I had actually written two
different apps which I would have done as HTML5 but the loading time alone
was just to slow. The increased loading speed alone should now make these
possible as HTML5. There are still a lot of other things that are difficult
to do with the current HTML5 deployment to make it anything like a
fat-client deployment. Still, for my purposes it can't even get off the
ground without the initial load speed improvement.

I am expecting the M1 build to bring about increased performance, but I
have no complaints with the current Rosetta speed on M1 (but the 10x faster
startup time of M1 Macs over Intel Macs could give us some idea of how much
of a speed increase we might see).

I like the array literals idea. That's something I've wanted for so, so
long.  And the constants built from expressions is a nice thing to have.
Having named rather than merely positional parameters for handlers would
also be something I'd like (Python does a few things right).  But these
things are basically syntactic sugar.

With Switch statements I always try to put the options in order of greatest
likelihood first, but that can't always make a difference if conditions
follow a more even distribution. Still, it's one less thing to have to
think about.

But I would hope there are even bigger things coming with version 10 than
these.

Regards, Bernard

On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 11:03 PM Martin Koob via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi all.
>
> There has been lots of discussion on the list and forums about the one
> part of Kevin’s announcement regarding the changes in licensing but nothing
> that I see on the other major part of the announcement — the new features
> coming in LiveCode 10.
>
>
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Re: Standard Plan Pricing Confusion

2021-09-07 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I haven't looked into it as I have nothing to do with education.  But
doesn't the University plan give you all 7 platforms + additional features
for about $950?

https://livecode.com/education-plans/


On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 9:50 PM Timothy Bleiler via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> The pricing for the standard plan looks confusing and inconsistent when
> first encountered. It’s also further complicated by the "add on" options.
>
> There are 2 add ons:
> email support
> Pro Package (Device Debugging, code optimization tool, the network layer
> (tsNet library), iOS accessory access, pdf library). The info box on this
> still references the Community and Indy licenses which supposedly don’t
> exist.
>
> Hopefully I have this figured out right. If I’m wrong it could reflect
> poorly on me or the plans ;-)
> Here’s the rounded-off pricing if you just buy deployment options. After
> the first platform you can substitute 1 of the 2 add on options for
> platform in each of these tiers.
>
> 1 platform = $300
> 2 platforms = $500 ($200 more)
> 3 platforms = $900 ($400 more)
> 4 platforms = $1000 ($100 more)
> 5 platforms = $1500 ($500 more)
> 6 platforms = $1800 ($300 more)
> All 7 platforms = $2000 ($200 more)
>
> Here’s the rounded off per platform/options pricing for each tier.
> This looks like it makes slightly more sense than when it’s listed the
> other way.
> 1 platform = $300
> 2 platforms = $250
> 3 platforms = $300
> 4 platforms = $250
> 5 platforms = $300
> 6 platforms = $300
> All 7 platforms + the 2 add ons = $222
>
> This issue was brought up previously by Sean Cole. Jacqueline Landman Gay
> suggested that it might be tied to the popularity of specific platforms.
>  Here’s how she explained it. "The way I figure it, each platform is $300.
> But since many of us build for the two major ones (Mac and Windows) you get
> a $100 discount for that bundle. After that it's $300 each except for
> 4 and 7 platforms, where there's also a discount.” Yes, apparently, but
> why?  The popular desktops/ mobile bundle? Why then are the add ons priced
> the same?  Is there really equivalent value there? Number 7 is obviously
> discounted for a buy everything tier. That’s OK, I guess.
>
> The problem with Jacqueline’s explanation is that it doesn’t matter which
> platforms or add ons you select, the same pricing pattern persists.  I can
> justify different prices for different platform deployments and different
> options, but this inconsistent pattern could be hard to explain to
> prospective users and business accountants to whom we have to justify
> purchases. Jacqueline may be right about the reasons but these are “hidden”
> bundle options based on an assumption of what the user is likely to want.
> It also can make some combinations that are probably much harder to
> justify/explain than others.
>
> While I can come up with some other explanations for this and a case could
> be made that it has a lot of flexibility, I wonder if a more transparent
> pricing/bundling/discount structure might be better.
>
> Any chance we can get some clarification on the rationale behind the
> pricing to help us with our purchasing requests?
>
>
> Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
> Instructional Designer, HSIT
> University at Buffalo
>
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Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

2021-09-07 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Without knowing anything other than "the IDE is like treacle"  I loaded
various stacks in Windows to see what the complaint could possibly be about.
8 seconds for IDE to start - no treacle on opening stacks
8 seconds to open Dictionary - no treacle on searching Dictionary (given
it's loading 1000 pages of lightning-fast searchable text, I think 8
seconds isn't too bad).  I generally open it once and don't shut it until I
close LC.

So I created a new stack and pasted 8000 lines of text into the Script
Editor.  Typing in the Editor then became treacley (but not on OS X).
Switching off Edit/Options/live errors removed any speed degradation on
typing.  Assuming I've correctly identified where the issue is, the issue
is not the IDE, the issue is doing something specific with large scripts
inside the Script Editor.  That may well be the issue that Mark Waddingham
was discussing about sorting text.  The Script editor doesn't slow down
with 100s of lines.

As for general weirdness with Windows. When Windows "anti-virus" scam kicks
in every day, my laptop stops working (even trying to switch between apps
is treacley).  This is something MS have made almost impossible to disable
(I haven't found a way), and I can't set the priority low. I just have to
leave the laptop for an hour and go to do something else.  Someone trying
to save a file during this scan is likely to experience slow file saves.
I've also seen Windows Update taking large amounts of RAM.  These things
are less noticeable on my Windows desktop.

Regards, Bernard

On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 5:15 PM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> It's worse than the unicode text issue. Saving stacks is from my setup 7
> to 8 times slower in Windows than on a Mac, and I have tried numerous
> Windows configurations from bare metal to VMWare servers running on a
> robust host. In discussions in the past, it seems there isn't a lot
> Livecode can do about it. The issues are with Windows itself. At least that
> was the upshot of the discussions.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Sep 3, 2021, at 06:56 , Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > I was wondering this too: when Lagi mentioned 'fix the IDE' I thought
> this might be a reference to some of a number of usabiity snags - it didn't
> occur to me that it was just speed.
> >
> > I develop on a nine-year old MacBook and have never noticed a speed
> issue with the IDE. I wonder if it's possible that the Windows IDE has been
> affected by the same issue to do with manipulating quantities of text that
> I've been talking about on the list, which Mark W has suggested might be
> fixed in a release very shortly? (Seems unlikely!) But definitely seems to
> be something platform specific.
> >
> > Lagi, if you're still able to access a 6.7 installer, could you confirm
> whether the IDE under 6.7 has the same problem on your set up? The problems
> with speed on Windows that I'm seeing came in after 6.7.
> >
> > Ben
>
>
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Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition

2021-09-07 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 12:13 AM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> Another company's software I used for visual Foxpro and Delphi over the
> years was
>
> https://www.chilkatsoft.com/
>
> Look at all the languages they support and livecode isn't on there [...]
> VB.NET, VB6, VBScript, Xbase++, xHarbour, Xojo
>
> The question is why Livecode isn't there?
>
> Lagi
>

The question is: have YOU lobbied chilkat to build an interface for
Livecode?  I did. I got no reply.

But when I bought my chilkat license (some years before I lobbied them)
something went wrong with the payment (my bank cancelled the payment as
"suspicious").  I got the vilest email from a company I've ever had,
accusing me of fraud and telling me how the developer would get his own
back.  His response is seared into my memory (I excused his awful behaviour
by telling myself "hmm he must have had a significant number of people
ripping him off with this software"). Despite his vile email, I arranged
for payment with a different credit card. But when I didn't get a response
from him re Livecode I decided I'd been too nice in excusing his bad
behaviour.  By contrast, every email I've ever sent to LC Ltd has resulted
in a prompt and courteous reply.

Perhaps if you spent as much time lobbying Chilkat as you spend denigrating
LC Ltd you might find LC among the software supported by Chilkat?  I doubt
the developer of Chilkat would allow you on his forum to repeatedly
denigrate him and his software, criticising his company for supporting
Filemaker than implementing something you want.

Once again, if "the opensource community", supposedly "the largest
demographic", are not at least using their time to lobby e.g. Chilkat to
provide a Livecode interface, then are they beneficial or are they just a
drain?  To date the only Livecode user we know who spent time to lobby
Chilkat is also one of those who is not a free-loader but one who has been
a license-payer for decades.  What are the scores/hundreds of freeloaders
doing with their time?

Regards, Bernard
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Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition

2021-09-06 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Actually I wasn't particularly addressing you. For one thing, I'll wager
you've got hundreds of posts on the Forum.

On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 7:09 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> My biggest "whine" is not the ending of the open source initiative - it's
> the fact that OUR biggest competitors (XOJO and B4X) have non expiring
> licences and at least a non time limited "trial" version.
>
>
Xojo and B4X are not my competitors. I am not LC Ltd. If you think these
technologies are so interchangeable I don't know why you're persisting with
the one that runs "like treacle".  I don't have a license for either of
those Basics.  And if you see them as "our competitors", why fund the
competition.  Very strange IMO.  LC fits into my philosophy of software
design at a specific location (I have never even tried to run it inside a
webserver, there are better technologies for that).

Your biggest whine is that the IDE "runs like treacle", even on beefy
hardware.  I asked for evidence of this, because in 20 years on non-beefy
hardware I've never seen it.  I'm still waiting to see what problem you've
got.  No-one else appears to recognize your complaint.


> Calling people parasites because they want the open source to continue (but
> with better differentiation) is not constructive.
>

People who  wanted open source to continue had 8 years of opportunities.  I
used to muse every time Panos sent out an email with "easy fixes to the
documentation"  hmm, how many of those who contribute nothing financial
to this project can even be bothered to spend some time fixing some
documentation.  Clearly most people wanted open source so they could spend
their time and money on other things than supporting the technology with
either finance or money.  Within a couple of months of InterBase opening
their source code and entirely new database project was born. Not so with
Livecode.

What word do you use for people who take and take for 8 years then have a
hissy fit when they are told they aren't getting any more freebies because
their freebies have just been a drain on resources.

The starter system is easy (very easy).
>

LC is the business of LC Ltd. It's not your business. It's not my business.
Please feel free to look back over my posts in the last 20 years to see
where I've told them how to run their business. The one time I did contact
Heather, was to draw her attention to one of the whining threads on the
Forum, and to pull from it a trio of suggestions for improvement.  But I
did this in private rather than create lots of public whining with which to
put off potential/actual users.


> The future is the kids and the only way of capturing them is to make it
> easy for them to send out a link to a program they wrote to friends and
> family to show off what they did.
>

I very much doubt this.  There are dozens of less impressive technologies
than LC for kids to learn. "Worse is better", and all that. IMO the idea
that we need to "think of the children" is a myth. I've seen this topic of
Livecode and Education discussed for 20 years.

As there are some on this list who have been around even longer than I, it
seems like we should have an answer to this question: how many people have
you encountered here or on the Forum who learned about LC through formal
schooling (school or university) and are using it in later life?  In my
case it is zero. I cannot recollect anyone on this mailing list or on the
Forum who has stated that this was their introduction to Livecode.

If it turns out that there is no such person, then there's little point in
LC Ltd worrying about the idea that this is a channel that brings in new
long-term users (as those on the Forum claim). The only reason for
providing any version aimed at those in education should be the money such
a thing would bring in as an end in itself.


> The biggest error livecode has made all these years is not creating a
> "working" storefront that doesn't look like it has been totally given up
> on.
>

*De gustibus non est disputandum.  *I think there's very, very little wrong
with Livecode.com.  What is it that you have tried to do with their website
that you couldn't do?  Maybe you don't like the font, or the text, or the
graphics, or whatever.  But such generic criticism is of no help and is
just barking at the moon.

IMO the most important thing for them to add to the website is a few short
(hi-res) videos showing some apps being developed in LC.  That was one of
the few *specific and constructive points* I made (in private) to Heather.

Regards, Bernard
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Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition

2021-09-06 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 3:08 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> We have dabbled with a number of low cost /entry level offerings in the
> past. There used to be a starter kit that allowed only a certain number of
> lines of code per object. We had non-standalone building products e.g.
> DreamCard/revMedia. None of these models have worked well for a long list
> of reasons - indeed they caused huge issues for us. This problem is much
> harder to solve than you might think. Will we continue to refine our entry
> level offering? Yes definitely. Specific suggestions in this area are
> welcome, particularly directly to me rather than on here.
>

Those of us who've been around since the days of Metacard knew this. It was
precisely why I haven't chimed in with "what LC should do", because I know
they've been prepared to evaluate so many different approaches.  Many years
ago the Ambassador from Fourthworld said: "it's their company to run, I
concentrate on running my business". I tried weeks ago saying that to
whiners on the forum, but it made no difference.  Even after Kevin posted
the remarks below days ago, they are still playing CEO (as Andre so pithily
puts it).

To those who were repeatedly whining I pointed out: we don't have the data
that LC Ltd has, they know what has worked/failed, they know what marketing
has worked/failed; and they have more interest in the success of LC than
any of us customers have, so we should respect that and support them in it.

Some of the whiners won't listen to reason. I got to the point where I gave
up trying to debate these issues, for no sooner had I reasoned why some
claim they'd made was wrong and a week later they were back making the same
claim.  It is annoying to see people who've never sold so much as a piece
of fruit constantly running down the company whose products they use.

LC is a very unusual development tool, virtually in a class of its own.
Communicating this uniqueness (and why the unique properties are so
important) to novices and even very experienced developers is a challenge.
With Xojo or B4X you can say "this is a cross-platform relative of Visual
Basic", and people who've had even a little programming experience in the
past 30 years will understand what they are dealing with. These days I'd
guess that 95% of Apple users don't even know the meaning of "Hypercard" or
"Applescript".  There's simply no frame of reference.  Twenty years ago I
gave a programming colleague a copy of The Hypercard Book and the Metacard
starter kit. With book in hand she said she couldn't get her head around
Metacard and gave up (and she'd been using RAD tools for a decade).  I got
her to try Revolution a year or two later, and she still couldn't
understand it.  She ended up becoming a Filemaker developer.  I've come to
the conclusion that the only option is videos that demonstrate apps being
constructed, this might at least appeal at a superficial level. I can't
think of another way to start to indicate what the tool is like. I think
this might be worth some investment.  In fact, in a discussion recently I
cited the idea of a high quality video showing Andre's calculator example.
I think I wrote to Heather about this some weeks ago.

Regards, Bernard
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Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition

2021-09-05 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Over on the Forum I've seen several of the whiners criticising the lifetime
licenses - people who have paid a tiny fraction of what we've paid (if
they've paid anything at all)!  I suspect their baseless criticisms have
cost more than any of the whiners have paid in license fees. If I ran the
Forum the baseless whiners would be told to "stop whining or leave". I know
of dozens of people banned from social media for things far less offensive
than are said about LC Ltd on their own forum.

I rarely delete emails and just went back through mine. I'd been a license
payer for more than a decade before I got a lifetime offer. But I couldn't
afford it until I got the offer again, some 5 years later.  Even then the
lifetime license cost me more than I'd paid in the previous 18 years
combined, so I had to think hard about it (not sure if I will be around in
18 years). And though there were some years of future license banked in my
LC account, I didn't quibble and say "can I have a discount for the years
I've already paid in advance".  I think if I had done that LC Ltd would
have taken that into account, because that's how they roll.  But to me it
felt mean-spirited to ask for a discount. Which is why I think LC Ltd have
been very magnanimous to those who say they can't afford a license. My
self-respect wouldn't let me be one of those people.

I have no expectation of LC Ltd listening to Dan's suggestion, as the one
thing that stands out from watching Kevin for 20 years is that he does his
utmost to be honourable. If the majority of those free-loaders had any
honour, we wouldn't be having any of this discussion.

I hoped that the open source initiative would have seen positive
contributions, but that didn't happen.  I'll come back in a year and see if
they've even managed to compile the existing code.

Regards, Bernard


On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 5:16 PM Rick Harrison via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi Dan,
>
> So you want the company to break more promises, even to the lifetimers?
>
> A lot of the lifetimers have spent a lot of money on licenses before
> deciding to invest in lifetime licenses.  I don’t think you want to be
> ticking off what is probably the company's most loyal base.
> It’s a recipe for disaster!
>
> Just my 2 cents for the day.
>
> Rick
>
>
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Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition

2021-09-05 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I'm sure Kevin etc. doesn't share my view on this. But here it is. Get your
popcorn.

On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 2:56 PM Dan Brown via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> It can't  be any more harmful than abruptly pulling the rug from under the
> feet of your largest user demographic. If revenue is the root of livecodes
> problems then I don't  see why a small demographic of lifetimers is exempt
> from an update in policy that seeks to increase the paying subscription
> count


Largest user demographic? Free-loaders who contributed no money but plenty
of baseless whining?

So many protest poverty but I'm 100% certain they spend more every year
than the cost of an annual license fee on plenty of other things. Some of
us paid for a license for years in order to fund something we believed in
and wanted to see thrive, even though that meant having to forego stuff
that the free-loaders would instead be spending their money on. FWIW my
health problems have made it difficult for me to do any work that required
keeping regular hours or even being able to keep appointments. Yet I'd
bought licenses for 18 years before I bought a lifetime license (I still
have unused licenses in my account, at one point in the last few years I
had three concurrent licenses).  When I hear "can't afford" I translate it
into "I prioritise my spending differently".  "If I don't make any
financial contribution to LC Ltd I can get a new iPhone" - that kind of
thing.  I just sacrificed other things in order to keep supporting LC.

When they had their free toys taken away the rampant hostility from the
free-loaders shows what little value they brought.  Some of those whining
free-loaders have barely made 80 posts on the Forum in the past 8 years.
Despite being a continuous license payer, despite my health problems, I
freely gave hundreds of hours of help to people on the Forum. Some of them
are saying "if LC Ltd had had a donate button, I'd have sent them some
money". Yeah, right - contacting LC Ltd and asking how they could
contribute financially was beyond their abilities.

In 25 years on the internet, I've never before seen such a collection of
valueless people as these whiners (they wouldn't be tolerated in any other
business or open source community).  Most of the users of the Community
edition are of so little value that they can't even be bothered to take
part in the Forum and provide support to other users! When I look at the
whiners compared to how few posts they even made on the Forum, I'm filled
with disgust.  Have they no shame? They contribute neither time nor money.

It's simple. Those who aren't parasites will decide to start contributing
financially. Those who are parasites will go away, and live off some other
community - and the absence of parasites will be beneficial. If just one of
those who isn't a parasite takes out a standard license it will take him
nearly 20 years to contribute as much financially as I have _since_ the
"community" edition was launched. People like me could have simply stopped
paying and used "the free edition" too, and this situation would have come
about much sooner. If it turns out all of those who used the Community
edition were parasites, what has LC Ltd lost if they vanish?

Parasite might sound like a strong word, but what word do you use for
someone who takes, takes, takes but never gives back, contributing nothing
else than to make an organism weaker?
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Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition

2021-09-02 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
>>
But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running on a
16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7  processor and it  STILL runs like
treacle.
<<

As I don't recognize this experience can you put a video of your experience
on the cloud?  I don't run on hardware anything like as beefy as you have.
The only machine I've got where LC is slow is one where Windows itself is
really slow (a 4yo laptop).  On my two Apple machines (M1 and Intel, the
latter is 5yo) it is not "like treacle", neither is it slow on my i5
Windows machine.

It's a bit hard for LC Ltd to identify and fix something if it's only found
in some odd cases.

Regards, Bernard






On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 10:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install
> something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in the
> way
> so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out.
>
>  You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an extension,
> and by the time they answer
> you get cheesed off and remove the  program.
>
> The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 months
> (whichever comes first).
>
> This stops the clever  SOD who decides to keep it running without exiting
> for 6 months but it times out anyway.
> Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" twice so
> it will last 30 days.
>
> This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it without
> rushing.
>
> The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal
> customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps those
> who want to give it a good try.
>
> You can also put a  nag screen  at the start of any executable with an OK
> button  link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a
> brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?).
>
> But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running on a
> 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7  processor and it  STILL runs like
> treacle.
>
> If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in less
> than 30 minutes.
>
> You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away"  to
> schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen.
>
> It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - and
> some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a
> student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid idea
> of the lot so far)
>
>
> Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky,
> stupid and not workable suggestions?.
>
> Lagi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well give a
> > longer trial a shot at some point.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> > Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> > LiveCode: Develop Yourself
> >
> > On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via
> > use-livecode"  > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > True, true.
> >
> > There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack around
> > but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a
> > programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other
> > supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I
> would
> > not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an option.
> >
> > Ralph DiMola
> > IT Director
> > Evergreen Information Services
> > rdim...@evergreeninfo.net
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On
> > Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode
> > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM
> > To: How to use LiveCode
> > Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen
> > Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition
> >
> > Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free
> > non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just
> > download that.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> > Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> > LiveCode: Develop Yourself
> >
> > On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael Kristensen
> > via use-livecode"  > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi there
> >
> > I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition
> >
> > That would be for personal use, and to learn coding.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > ___
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> 

Re: Sorting text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows (Re: Accumulating text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows)

2021-09-02 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Whilst waiting for a fix, would a temporary solution be to use sqlite to
create an in-memory database and let sqlite do the sorting for you?

Regards, Bernard.

On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 8:23 PM Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Thanks to Mark Waddingham's advice about using a buffer var when
> accumulating
> a large text variabel in stages, I've now got a script that took 8 hours
> under
> LC9, and (8 minutes under LC6) down by stages to just under 1 hour under
> LC9.
>
> However I have some remaining issues not amenable to this approach; of
> which
> the most significant relates to the sort command.
>
> In all cases it seems to take much longer under LC9 than it did under LC6;
> although the factor is quite variable. The most dramatic is one instance,
> in
> which this statement:
>
> sort lines of tNewTable by item iSortCol of each
>
> takes 35 minutes to execute. `tNewTable` is a variable consisting of some
> 223,000 lines of text; approx 70MB. The exact same statement with the same
> data on the same computer in LC6 takes just 1 second.
>
> Has anyone else noticed something of this sort? As I said, the effect
> varies:
> e.g. 54 seconds versus 1 second; 22 seconds versus 1 second. So it may not
> be
> so noticeable in all cases.
>
> TIA,
>
> Ben
>
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Re: LiveCode community edition is gone

2021-09-02 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
>>
I can understand why there are users who feel betrayed by the company
especially with the new
pricing structure, and the discontinuance of support for the Community
version which was even
paid for in a marketing campaign in advance of it’s release.
<<
The vast majority of the money contributed to the Kickstarter received a
commercial license in the days after the Kickstarter closed.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28379192

I've contributed to other very high profile projects, where within a year
or so of completion the vendors lost interest in the project and
discontinued it and my _installed_ copy stopped working. No answer from
customer support, the company had the money and just moved on.  No-one who
contributed to the Kickstarter received that kind of treatment from LC Ltd.

>>
It can seem that the company keeps increasing it’s prices while taking away
functionality by
forcing users to select which specific platforms to be able to deploy to.
That seems to go against
the idea of coding once and being able to deploy to all platforms in one
affordable package.
<<

LC deploying to 3 platforms is still cheaper now than Revolution Enterprise
was 15 years ago.

>>
Access to the Community version is still very important as that is how many
users were first
introduced to LiveCode who then became paying customers. I believe the try
it before buying
model is still very important for helping users to make the purchase
decision.
<<
"... who then became paying customers..." If that was true I don't think LC
Ltd would have felt the need to terminate the free offering.  There are
lots of people who have admitted that they didn't see the point in paying
for a license when the free version could do 99% of what the licensed
version could do.

The tragedy is that many people are too selfish to see the bigger picture.
I know dozens of parents who spend far more on the mobile phone contracts
for their children than the LC starter license costs.  Those parents know
they can't get a free phone for their kids so they pay up.

On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 5:14 PM Rick Harrison via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>
> > On Sep 1, 2021, at 11:44 AM, Dan Brown via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > That's a bit harsh, are you forgetting the amount of money that was
> > contributed by users to the fund raisers over the years?  > $600k
> >
>
>
>
>
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Re: Licensing model change

2021-09-02 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I see that some of "the community" have now uploaded dozens of the
installers from the old Livecode page to archive.org.

https://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22LiveCode%2C+Inc.%22

I don't know what LC Ltd's thinking was in deleting the old pages, but
clearly some of "the community" are doing all they can to thwart LC Ltd.
The tragedy of the commons.


On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 11:49 PM doc hawk via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> Kevin kayaked,
> >Look what happened to Open Office. It died because no one wanted to work
> on it.
>
> ???
>
> The bulk of the developers bolted and formed LibreOffice from the OO
> codebase.  It’s alive and well--I just downloaded a new version this
> morning.
>
> It isn’t that OO faded or died, but that no-one liked the new overlords
> when Oracle acquired Sun.  The project itself is thriving under the new
> name.
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Re: Bye, and thanks for the fish

2021-09-02 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi Kevin

I've read your various interactions with people here and on the forum and I
think you're handling this superbly  In the last 5 years my house insurance
has doubled in price (the house has remained the same size and the
insurance offers no more features). At no point has my insurance company
said "contact us if you can't afford this and we'll work something out".

Regards,

On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 10:34 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> What she said. Get in touch and I'm sure we can work something out.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Kevin
>
> Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Develop Yourself
>
> On 02/09/2021, 04:36, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via
> use-livecode"  use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> This situation is the kind of thing that Kevin encourages you to
> contact
> support about. He's said he doesn't want to lose anyone.
>
> It's true that open source has made things difficult for the company,
> but
> they also value the folks who have stood by them all this time. Please
> do
> write to Heather.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> On September 1, 2021 7:54:16 PM Neville Smythe via use-livecode
>  wrote:
>
> >> On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:36 pm, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com
> wrote:
> >>
> >> i am not sure, if everyone is aware of it, but standalones that
> were
> >> created with the Starter Plan license will expire as soon as the
> Startert
> >> Plan subscription expires.
> >
> > Not even Apple is that rapacious.
> >
> > I used to have a commercial licence back when I was selling stuff
> (although
> > the economics of software never made sense). Since retiring I have
> been
> > “freeloading" with the Community edition as a hobbyist, my only LC
> uses
> > being for personal use, and maintaining admin and operating software
> I
> > wrote for a not-for-profit sporting organisation, and occasionally
> > contributing bug reports. I can well understand the need for LC to
> move to
> > a profitable basis, and I would be happy buy a plan if it made sense
> for
> > our use, but there is no way my NFP association can afford US$1000
> every
> > year - or even one year (we would use 3 platforms, and not even the
> Server
> > is thrown in with the desktop platforms). And a Starter Kit that
> means the
> > app would stop working when I pass on (I have been around since
> Hypercard
> > day 1) is an insult. Seems to me the hobbyist use of LC has come to
> an end.
> > A great pity, but I guess times move on.
> >
> > I have greatly enjoyed being part of this (mostly) friendly and
> generous
> > community for many years.
> >
> > Neville Smythe
> >
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
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>
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Re: Bye, and thanks for the fish

2021-09-02 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Over on the forum Kevin has been encouraging people to contact support with
any issues. Some are refusing to do so, making ridiculous demands in
response.

Yesterday I had a look at the historical prices to see if LC was
significantly more expensive than Metacard:
2001 - Metacard ($995)  [$288]
2005 - Revolution Enterprise (£899) [£243]
2021 - Livecode (3x distro platforms £720) [£1316]

In square brackets behind each is [the price of an ounce of gold] (if
someone's got a better comparator, they can post it e.g. crude oil, pork
bellies, cost of an entry level Mac, etc).

So Metacard cost 3 ounces of gold, Rev Enterprise cost 3.7 oz of gold,
today's Livecode equivalent costs 0.54 oz of gold.  Even if one adds all 7
of the distro platforms (3 of which certainly didn't exist in 2005), a full
Livecode license costs just over 1oz of gold, so between 1/3rd of the price
of 15 years ago (or as little as 1/6th the price of Metacard). Objectively
speaking, the customer today gets so much more for so much less.  Apart
from those who have been used to getting something for free.

It was only this time last year I stated how amazing it was that Livecode
manages all the complexity of producing software that runs on so many
divergent platforms (I was navigating the version compatibilities of Xcode,
Android Studio, MacOS, iOS, AndroidOS, Windows OS, and Livecode), not to
mention producing two different versions of Livecode (free and
commercial).  Something had to give.

Regards, Bernard
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Re: LiveCode community edition is gone

2021-09-01 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
The vast majority of those who contributed to the Kickstarter were rewarded
with something other than the free product.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28379192

I suggest you go read the comments on the Forum and see who is being
harsh.  LC Ltd made a change that is within their rights to keep LC going -
some of the same people complaining about the new licensing costs are also
people who repeatedly allege "LC Ltd is financially on the ropes".  Others
are on the Forum repeatedly telling people to jump ship to alternative
tools, and were doing this for months before this licensing change was made.

I'm pretty sure most people have more money lost on unused minutes on their
mobile phone contract than it would cost to buy a license to fund LC
development.

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 4:47 PM Dan Brown via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> "I can only assume
> many of them used LC simply because it was free of charge, disliking that
> doing so in future will entail them making some contribution to the cost of
> progress."
>
> That's a bit harsh, are you forgetting the amount of money that was
> contributed by users to the fund raisers over the years?  > $600k
>
>
>
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Re: LiveCode community edition is gone

2021-09-01 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
FWIW over on the forums the sentiment seems to be mostly hostile to these
changes. Many are talking of collecting and hosting past "community"
installers to get around these changes by LC Ltd, others talking of jumping
ship.  Over there the attitude is "the sky is falling".  I can only assume
many of them used LC simply because it was free of charge, disliking that
doing so in future will entail them making some contribution to the cost of
progress.

Regards, Bernard
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Re: LiveCode Community - anyone up for maintaining the community edition?

2021-09-01 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I'll refer again to the Firebird project. One of the ways they were able to
build on this opensource project was that as a community they employed and
funded programmers (mostly in Russia, if memory serves) to add the features
the community wanted.  So one way or another FOSS projects end up requiring
payment.

There are other FOSS projects where the developers of the project end up
getting fame because of it, leading to them being head-hunted as a team,
leaving the project languishing as the developers all go off to be
employees of Twitter, etc.  In other projects the developers get employed
as consultants in implementations of the project in corporate environments.

I look on payment to Livecode Ltd as payment to protect me from low-level
languages. With that mentality the idea of contributing to the C source
code is the opposite of what I want. I suspect most LC users have this
mentality.

Regards Bernard.



On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 1:28 PM Andre Garzia via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> People had eight years to contribute to the community edition, and they
> didn't. I don't think people would now start caring for and devoting the
> necessary energy to maintain the community edition. It is because people
> didn't organise and contribute that this recent change happened.
>
> On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 12:56, David Bovill via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Here are my thoughts on this - and a request.
> >
> > Yes - it’s not a surprising move by Livecode Ltd - they were clearly
> > struggling supporting the community aspect and taking the language to the
> > next level and they need more revenue to do that.
> >
> > The question is (for my part at least) - what to do about this.
> Personally
> > I have never seen a future for a closed source language, and the
> projects I
> > work on will not fund. Projects developed in closed source - especially
> by
> > a small company. So I have a choice, switch language, or look to continue
> > with developing with the community edition and help build an open source
> > community around that. The former (switching languages) is relatively
> easy,
> > the latter a lot of work.
> >
> > I’m happy to have a company like Livecode Ltd create closed source
> > products  that I can use, so how to have both an open source language,
> and
> > the ability to work with closed source products developed by Livecode
> Ltd?
> > As I see it the only option is for those interested in the community to
> > take control and responsibility for the core language.
> >
> > There are a number of options with regard to future language development,
> > that would put the language on an even par with other open source
> > languages, and there are also new ways to finance such initiatives. It
> > would be valuable to get together as a community and discuss those.
> >
> > How about having a community conference to look at what is possible? We
> > can do this online and showcase new and existing open source projects and
> > discuss the opportunities this new environment presents?
> >
> >
> > Schedule a call with me
> > On 1 Sep 2021, 12:18 +0100, David V Glasgow via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:26 am, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > There you had a group of programmers who supposedly loved what
> > > > HyperCard could do, but they only loved that concept as a historical
> > > > artefact, not as a tool available to people now.
> > >
> > > Abso-frogging-lutely.
> > >
> > > The really interesting questions are “why?" and “Is there anything we
> > could do about it?”
> > >
> > >
> > > Best Wishes,
> > >
> > > David Glasgow
> > > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist
> > > Carlton Glasgow Partnership
> > > Director, Child & Family Training, York
> > > Honorary Professor
> > > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit
> > > Nottingham Trent University
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
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> >

Re: LiveCode community edition is gone

2021-09-01 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I can't say this surprises me. I didn't expect the open source offering to
do anything but cut into the bottom line. But certainty isn't achieved
until something is tried and actual results obtained. One of the good
things about having the code source was that there have been times when
I've wanted to suggest an enhancement and could look through the code
myself to see what would be required to bring it about. If it required only
a small change I could make that suggestion and the enhancement was easy to
make.

Over the years I've watched on general programming forums as whenever
HyperCard was brought up there was gushing praise for what it was. Whenever
someone then posted about LiveCode in this context, the gushing praise
turned to irrational hostility.  Pointing out that LC was cross-platform
beyond their wildest dreams, massively more capable than HyperCard, and
free to use made no difference to their irrational hostility  -- better was
worse. There you had a group of programmers who supposedly loved what
HyperCard could do, but they only loved that concept as a historical
artefact, not as a tool available to people now. No wonder none of them got
interested in the open source code.

Ironically the LC source can remain up on Github and as the past 8 years
have shown it's exceedingly unlikely that the advocates of open source will
take it and run with it. This can be contrasted with, for example, what
happened with the InterBase database - in the rage for open source some 20
years ago Borland put up the code for InterBase, but within a couple of
days changed their mind and took down the source code. But by then the
source had been downloaded and became the Firebird database. The closed
source InterBase is still for sale, even though Firebird ended up being
completely re-written based on the code released 20 years ago.

Someone posted this announcement by LC to news.ycombinator.com.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28370865  LC got less hostility from
this announcement than from when LC would be mentioned in the past as an
open source version of HyperCard.

At the end of the day, if not enough funds go into LC Ltd then both the
closed source and open source products would disappear - the past 8 years
have shown us there is very little interest in people contributing to the
source.  It's chalk and cheese when compared with InterBase/Firebird. After
8 years there simply aren't enough low-level programmers who have any
interest in a version of HyperCard for the 21st century.

I could have switched to using the open source version of LC 8 years ago,
but I continued to pay for a license because I understood that bills have
to be paid or Livecode disappears.

Regards, Bernard
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Re: forum login playing up

2021-08-14 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 6:49 PM Klaus major-k via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> I check EVERY mail I receive! :-)
>
> But this is nothing I could fix, Heather needs to address this, so write
> to:
> supp...@livecode.com
>
> > Regards, Bernard
>
> Best
>
> Klaus
>
>
Thanks, Klaus. I'll contact Heather.

I assumed my emails were going to spam as I sent you an email a few weeks
ago but got no reply. Maybe you just thought the suggestions were bad ideas
:))

Regards, Bernard
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forum login playing up

2021-08-13 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
For days I've been having trouble logging in.

Even if I choose "I forgot my password" and paste in the new long password
the Forum emails to me, I can't log in with it.  I was able to login the
first time it did this, but as soon as I changed my password I was logged
out and couldn't login again.

Twice more I got it to send me a new password. It wouldn't let me login
with it. Then I got a message on the login page saying "... you now also
have to solve the CAPTCHA below" and there's no CAPTCHA.  I've tried this
cycle on two different browsers (Firefox and Safari), and no CAPTCHA is
displayed on either browser.

Even worse, there's no indication on the Forum of how to contact the Forum
admins to tell them about such problems.

Does anyone know who to contact?  I'd email Klaus, but I think my emails to
him go to spam.

Regards, Bernard
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Re: httpd library

2021-07-25 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi Andre

It was probably 15 years ago when you said "I want to build a http daemon
in Revolution".

You were a young man :)

BTW I've started using your dblibrary recently. If I pay for a license,
will you get the money?  Can you provide a link for where to make the
payment?

Regards, Bernard


>
>
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Re: httpd library

2021-07-25 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi Rick

Normally I'd agree with you (ever since Andre piped-up as a young man
saying he was building a webserver in Livecode, I've thought "just use one
of the many available webservers..")

However this user wants this running on a mobile device.  So he either
gives up that idea or he starts going down the path of httpd.mc or Andre's
webserver.

I was just trying to save him all the work that other's have done before.

Regards, Bernard

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 4:42 PM Rick Harrison via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi Bernard,
>
> The user should set up an LC Web Server with a database connected to it.
>
> The LC Apps should all then send information to the LC Server, and the
> Server
> will send information back to the LC Apps.
>
> I think any other way is going to be a huge waste of time and energy.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Rick
>
>
>
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httpd library

2021-07-25 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi all

Over on the forum someone has run into what appear to be limitations of
LC's included httpd library.

I remember over the years seeing that various people implemented something
like this (Andre comes to mind).  The forum user wants to be able to run a
LC app on a mobile device within a LAN and have others POST binary data to
the LC app via HTTP.

Rather then tell him "you can build your own" I thought I'd ask if anyone
knew the whereabouts of any of the other httpd implementations.

Regards

Bernard
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Java FFI on Windows

2021-02-01 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
In the Extending Livecode part of the Dictionary it says:

*"Java bindings are currently supported on Android, Mac and Linux."*

I am at a loss to understand why Java extensions are supported on Mac and
Linux but *not* on Windows.

I've seen no explanation for this anywhere. Can someone enlighten me?  I'd
understand why Objective C extensions would not work on Windows, but Java?

Can extensions on Windows *only* be written in C?

Regards Bernard
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Re: open secure socket... using certificate

2021-01-29 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi Richard

The idea of client certificates was why I was looking for this feature for
the past 15 years. I know that PKI is complex but it is important (which is
why browsers implemented it decades ago).  Even tsNet behaves very
differently on Windows and OS X when it comes to server certificates (looks
to me that Microsoft is mis-implementing their libcurl/schannel interface,
but I guess it stung them 20 years ago when they hadn't implemented
Certificate Revocation Lists).

Without LC having client certificates the only option I face is moving to
another tool. Even the idea of implementing real secure sockets in a FFI
external would be a huge amount of work for any of us users (as there is
not even a single lower level language which we could rely on in each
platform, so we'd be implementing a complex security layer and learning how
to do it in several different languages).

I'm going to look at moving to Xojo. Their docs say they implemented secure
sockets with certificates in 2006.  Their Android deployment platform is
close to completion. It really would have been better for LC to have
removed those claims from the Dictionary back in 2014, as then I'd have
seen in recent years it still hadn't been implemented and would have looked
at another tool months ago rather than get to this point and realise I'd
wasted a lot of time. I've spent an entire week now just pondering on the
options on how I can move forward.

Regards, Bernard


On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 4:12 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>
> Thank you, Bernard.  In bringing myself up to speed on this, once I
> stumbled across the phrase "two-way SSL" I was able to find much good
> reading about it.
>
> I just added Comment #11 to the bug report on this:
>
>  The range of services requiring two-way SSL is increasing,
>  and with IoT the scope of use cases is multiplying.
>
>  Where required, I don't see an opportunity for a scripted
>  workaround, so in those cases the only alternative is to
>  leave LC for a tool that supports two-way SSL.
>
>  This would seem a good time to bite the bullet on this
>  implementation. What would be required to make it happen?
>
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13410#c11
>
>
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Re: open secure socket... using certificate

2021-01-29 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi Richard, it's client side.

The project is a messaging app, principally for mobile.  SSL/TLS
certificates issued with client software enable servers to know that the
connection is allowed at a network level before any user authentication.

In the early stages of development it was simple enough for a LC messaging
server to dismiss connections which didn't come from an accepted client and
didn't meet the specification.  Once I moved to an industry standard server
then the connections have to be encrypted with certificates at both ends.

Regards, Bernard

On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 4:44 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Bernard Devlin wrote:
>
>  > I feel like a sucker. I started on this project a few months ago on
>  > the assumption that socket certificates now worked as they'd been
>  > included in the Dictionary for years. I was away from development for
>  > a few years and hadn't noticed the complaints that the Dictionary was
>  > misrepresenting the situation.
>
> Is this specific to the server "accept" not supporting SSL, or something
> client-side?
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>   
>   ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: open secure socket... using certificate

2021-01-27 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi Tom

You shouldn't get any hopes up. I'd commented in the bug report in 2014
that this was something that we'd been told was coming back in the days of
LC version 2.


I think when a development environment has failed to deliver a feature from
version 2 to version 10 that thing is never going to appear.


On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 9:22 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> super happy to see this, hopefully it will when i need it.
> Going to look this up.
> Wondering if it will be super hard to create certificate and make it work
> on localhost sockets.
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 2:26 PM Brian Milby via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > “Using tCertificate and tKey” compiles but I don’t know how to test.  It
> > does seem like the parser doesn’t recognize those keywords.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Jan 26, 2021, at 2:13 PM, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks for the suggestion Erik, but I don't see from that how one
> > specifies
> > > the certificate.
> > >
> > > Regards, Bernard
> > >
> > >> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 6:03 PM Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode <
> > >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Maybe this:
> > >>
> > >> secure socket "livecode.com:443"
> > >>
> > >> Examples:
> > >>
> > >> https://livecode.fandom.com/wiki/Secure_socket
> > >>
> > >> -Original Message-
> > >> From: use-livecode  On Behalf
> Of
> > >> Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
> > >> Sent: dinsdag 26 januari 2021 16:40
> > >> To: How to use LiveCode 
> > >> Cc: Bernard Devlin 
> > >> Subject: Re: open secure socket... using certificate
> > >>
> > >> I did. I tried these too:
> > >>
> > >> *open* *secure* socket to "localhost:443"  using certificate tc and
> key
> > tk
> > >>
> > >> *open* *secure* socket to "localhost:443" without verification using
> > >> certificate tc and key tk
> > >>
> > >> When the above lines are entered in the script editor they are flagged
> > as
> > >> being syntax errors. In both cases it is what comes after
> "certificate"
> > >> that is flagged as a syntax error (flagged as: missing "," near "tc").
> > >> There seems to be no combination of command options that works with
> > >> certificates.
> > >>
> > >> The fact that the Dictionary has zero information about what is
> expected
> > >> for certificate/key was not a good sign, which is why I searched the
> > >> archive.  I just went to have a look at the code on Github and I can
> > seen
> > >> nothing to suggest that "using certificate and key" is implemented.
> > >>
> > >> The server and client certificate are working in a browser, so the
> > problem
> > >> is definitely on the LC side.
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 2:34 PM Brian Milby via use-livecode <
> > >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Did you try with “and key tKey”... it does not look like that part is
> > >>> optional.
> > >>>
> > >>> Sent from my iPhone
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Jan 26, 2021, at 9:07 AM, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode <
> > >>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> According to the Dictionary in LC 9.5.1 there is this command:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> open secure socket [from [localHostName][:localPort]] [to] socketID
> > >>>> [with message callbackMessage] [without verification] *[using
> > >>>> certificate certificate and key key]*
> > >>>>
> > >>>> However I can't get it to work.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> open secure socket to "localhost:443" using certificate
> > >>>>
> > >>>> throws a runtime error "no handler: using"
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If I use
> > >>>>
> > >>>> open secure socket to "localhost:443"
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I get a socket connect

Re: open secure socket... using certificate

2021-01-27 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Thanks for confirming it Mark.

I feel like a sucker. I started on this project a few months ago on the
assumption that socket certificates now worked as they'd been included in
the Dictionary for years. I was away from development for a few years and
hadn't noticed the complaints that the Dictionary was misrepresenting the
situation.  Depressing to see my own name in that bug report from 7 years
ago, pointing out that secure sockets with certificates was something that
we'd been told was on the horizon in LC version 2, which must have been
around 2004.

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13410

Regards, Bernard


On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 12:57 AM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 1/26/21 6:05 AM, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode wrote:
>
> > Is it really the case that for the past 6 years LC documentation has been
> > misleading people concerning the implementation of certificates for
> secure
> > socket connections?
>
> Sadly, yes.
>
> >
> > I notice in the Dictionary the entry for "open socket" in the table of
> > options for this command has entries for "certificate" and "key", but
> these
> > are both empty.  As if these features were meant to be implemented but
> were
> > never implemented and the Dictionary was never updated to remove this
> > misleading information.
> >
> > I just find that hard to believe.
>
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13410
>
> although the earliest bug report seems to be from 2006:
>
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3737
>
> --
>   Mark Wieder
>
>
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Re: open secure socket... using certificate

2021-01-26 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Thanks for the suggestion Erik, but I don't see from that how one specifies
the certificate.

Regards, Bernard

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 6:03 PM Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Maybe this:
>
> secure socket "livecode.com:443"
>
> Examples:
>
> https://livecode.fandom.com/wiki/Secure_socket
>
> -Original Message-
> From: use-livecode  On Behalf Of
> Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
> Sent: dinsdag 26 januari 2021 16:40
> To: How to use LiveCode 
> Cc: Bernard Devlin 
> Subject: Re: open secure socket... using certificate
>
> I did. I tried these too:
>
> *open* *secure* socket to "localhost:443"  using certificate tc and key tk
>
> *open* *secure* socket to "localhost:443" without verification using
> certificate tc and key tk
>
> When the above lines are entered in the script editor they are flagged as
> being syntax errors. In both cases it is what comes after "certificate"
> that is flagged as a syntax error (flagged as: missing "," near "tc").
> There seems to be no combination of command options that works with
> certificates.
>
> The fact that the Dictionary has zero information about what is expected
> for certificate/key was not a good sign, which is why I searched the
> archive.  I just went to have a look at the code on Github and I can seen
> nothing to suggest that "using certificate and key" is implemented.
>
> The server and client certificate are working in a browser, so the problem
> is definitely on the LC side.
>
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 2:34 PM Brian Milby via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Did you try with “and key tKey”... it does not look like that part is
> > optional.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Jan 26, 2021, at 9:07 AM, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > According to the Dictionary in LC 9.5.1 there is this command:
> > >
> > > open secure socket [from [localHostName][:localPort]] [to] socketID
> > > [with message callbackMessage] [without verification] *[using
> > > certificate certificate and key key]*
> > >
> > > However I can't get it to work.
> > >
> > > open secure socket to "localhost:443" using certificate
> > >
> > > throws a runtime error "no handler: using"
> > >
> > > If I use
> > >
> > >  open secure socket to "localhost:443"
> > >
> > > I get a socket connection, but all the security of a client
> > > certificate does not work
> > >
> > >
> > > This causes a syntax error in the IDE:
> > >
> > >  open secure socket to "localhost:443" using certificate tName
> > >
> > > Looking through the archives I see that a couple of discussions
> > > where people were asking about this variant of the "open socket"
> > > command 5 to 6 years ago, *saying that the "certificate" part has
> > > not been implemented*, regardless of what the Dictionary says.
> > >
> > > Is it really the case that for the past 6 years LC documentation has
> > > been misleading people concerning the implementation of certificates
> > > for
> > secure
> > > socket connections?
> > >
> > > I notice in the Dictionary the entry for "open socket" in the table
> > > of options for this command has entries for "certificate" and "key",
> > > but
> > these
> > > are both empty.  As if these features were meant to be implemented
> > > but
> > were
> > > never implemented and the Dictionary was never updated to remove
> > > this misleading information.
> > >
> > > I just find that hard to believe.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Bernard
> > > ___
> > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
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Re: open secure socket... using certificate

2021-01-26 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I did. I tried these too:

*open* *secure* socket to "localhost:443"  using certificate tc and key tk

*open* *secure* socket to "localhost:443" without verification using
certificate tc and key tk

When the above lines are entered in the script editor they are flagged as
being syntax errors. In both cases it is what comes after "certificate"
that is flagged as a syntax error (flagged as: missing "," near "tc").
There seems to be no combination of command options that works with
certificates.

The fact that the Dictionary has zero information about what is expected
for certificate/key was not a good sign, which is why I searched the
archive.  I just went to have a look at the code on Github and I can seen
nothing to suggest that "using certificate and key" is implemented.

The server and client certificate are working in a browser, so the problem
is definitely on the LC side.

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 2:34 PM Brian Milby via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Did you try with “and key tKey”... it does not look like that part is
> optional.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 26, 2021, at 9:07 AM, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > According to the Dictionary in LC 9.5.1 there is this command:
> >
> > open secure socket [from [localHostName][:localPort]] [to] socketID [with
> > message callbackMessage] [without verification] *[using certificate
> > certificate and key key]*
> >
> > However I can't get it to work.
> >
> > open secure socket to "localhost:443" using certificate
> >
> > throws a runtime error "no handler: using"
> >
> > If I use
> >
> >  open secure socket to "localhost:443"
> >
> > I get a socket connection, but all the security of a client certificate
> > does not work
> >
> >
> > This causes a syntax error in the IDE:
> >
> >  open secure socket to "localhost:443" using certificate tName
> >
> > Looking through the archives I see that a couple of discussions where
> > people were asking about this variant of the "open socket" command 5 to 6
> > years ago, *saying that the "certificate" part has not been implemented*,
> > regardless of what the Dictionary says.
> >
> > Is it really the case that for the past 6 years LC documentation has been
> > misleading people concerning the implementation of certificates for
> secure
> > socket connections?
> >
> > I notice in the Dictionary the entry for "open socket" in the table of
> > options for this command has entries for "certificate" and "key", but
> these
> > are both empty.  As if these features were meant to be implemented but
> were
> > never implemented and the Dictionary was never updated to remove this
> > misleading information.
> >
> > I just find that hard to believe.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Bernard
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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open secure socket... using certificate

2021-01-26 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
According to the Dictionary in LC 9.5.1 there is this command:

open secure socket [from [localHostName][:localPort]] [to] socketID [with
message callbackMessage] [without verification] *[using certificate
certificate and key key]*

However I can't get it to work.

 open secure socket to "localhost:443" using certificate

throws a runtime error "no handler: using"

If I use

  open secure socket to "localhost:443"

I get a socket connection, but all the security of a client certificate
does not work


This causes a syntax error in the IDE:

  open secure socket to "localhost:443" using certificate tName

Looking through the archives I see that a couple of discussions where
people were asking about this variant of the "open socket" command 5 to 6
years ago, *saying that the "certificate" part has not been implemented*,
regardless of what the Dictionary says.

Is it really the case that for the past 6 years LC documentation has been
misleading people concerning the implementation of certificates for secure
socket connections?

I notice in the Dictionary the entry for "open socket" in the table of
options for this command has entries for "certificate" and "key", but these
are both empty.  As if these features were meant to be implemented but were
never implemented and the Dictionary was never updated to remove this
misleading information.

I just find that hard to believe.

Regards

Bernard
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Re: opened socket in IDE prevents script changes

2021-01-16 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi Bernd

Thanks for the suggestion. But I think the evidence points away from this.

One thing I've done is
- change the script (could be just addition of a comment)
- copy entire script
- apply & close
- re-open script editor --> *change is missing*

- close IDE
- re-open LC
- open stack script in editor
- delete entire script
- paste script from clipboard
- apply & close
- re-open script editor --> *change is now there*

As soon as I open a socket, back to the situation that where script
changed, apply etc. does not take. And closing all sockets does not work
(although there is always one socket left open, which I believe is a socket
the IDE creates in the background).

I'm working on the assumption that it's something to do with the way I'm
reading/writing to the socket.

It's definitely strange.  But if I can get to the bottom of this it will
help others. The weird thing is that everything is working with the socket
communications, no script or runtime errors thrown by LC, yet this working
app breaks the IDE in the sense that LC is no longer a dynamic scripting
environment (for me anyway).

It's important to get to the bottom of this as it makes LC look bad,
especially the numerous crashes, which all seem to be related to setting
breakpoints in the script editor to try and get to the bottom of what was
not working. At least on OSX I'm getting crash logs in the console.
Strangely the crash errors are not all the same.

Regards
Bernard

On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 5:28 PM Niggemann, Bernd via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi Bernard,
>
> I have seen similar behavior of the apply button indicating "clean"  when
> the script was "dirty"/had compile errors. That was without sockets.
>
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22555
>
> maybe your problem is related
>
> Kind regards
> Bernd
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Re: opened socket in IDE prevents script changes

2021-01-15 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi Alex

- no plugins using sockets
- Business 9.6.1
- no other debuggers/editors in use or used (I have crashed/restarted LC a
few dozen times today)
- no remote debugging

This is just a plain old stack, only a mouseup in a button, everything else
in the stack script.

I'm going to have to look back at my previous socket project to see what I
was doing there that was different.

It seems to me that this is what is going on: LC loads the script & the
socket interaaction makes it impossible for any script change to be
applied. Feels like the engine is simply not "letting go" in order to
reload the script.  Very peculiar, as I would expect that closing each of
the open sockets would release whatever was bound and stopping the script
changes from being applied.

Thanks for testing & showing that it's something idiosyncratic to me.

Regards,
Bernard

On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 4:59 PM Alex Tweedly via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> On 15/01/2021 15:30, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode wrote:
> > I'm seeing exactly the same range of behaviours I described earlier for
> > 9.5.1 on Win 10 but with 9.6.1 on OS X.
> >
> > It's very strange that Alex is also editing scripts with sockets
> > opened/closed but  not losing changes made in the script editor. I also
> had
> > 3 crashes on OS X within 30 minutes of working on this stack.
> >
> > Alex, are you using the IDE's script editor or some external editor?  If
> > you are using that script editor, once you've opened a socket could you
> add
> > a comment to your stack script, apply, close the script editor, then edit
> > the script again to see if the comment has persisted?  I have to quit LC
> to
> > make any changes to a stack once I've opened a socket.
>
> Yes, I'm using standard IDE script editor.
>
> The added comment persists, both through  "apply - close - reopen" and
> "apply - save stack - close editor - reopen", and to stack and card
> scripts.
>
> > It seems to me that once a socket has been opened that the IDE is no
> longer
> > persisting changes.  I'm pretty sure I didn't see this behaviour on my
> > previous project using sockets.
>
> Have to ask
>
>   - do you have any plugins that might use sockets ?
>
>   - I'm using Indy version - let me know if you're on Community /
> Business and I can try that too
>I think :-)
>
>   - do you, or have you, used other editors / debuggers that might
> affect this ?
>
>   - do you, or have you, used remote debugging ?
>
> That's all the straws I can think of for now.
>
> Alex.
>
> > Regards
> > Bernard
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 12:21 PM Bernard Devlin 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks Alex for your quick response.
> >>
> >> I'll try with 9.6.1 on Mac.  The only other difference between us is
> that
> >> my sockets are interacting with a process outside of LC. But I can't see
> >> why that would make a difference (particularly once I've closed all
> >> sockets, I wouldn't expect sockets to interfere with scripts being
> >> changed).
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Bernard
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 12:07 PM Alex Tweedly via use-livecode <
> >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I've not seen any such problems - though with 9.6.1 / Mac.
> >>>
> >>> I've spent most of the last week in the IDE, with two or more stacks
> >>> open (one server, one client - occasionally multiple client stacks) so
> I
> >>> have multiple open sockets (both 'accept'ing and 'open'ed)  almost all
> >>> the time, and had no problems with IDE or script editor.
> >>>
> >>> (I know - that's no consolation, but I thought I'd mention it in case
> >>> 9.6.1 was an option for you and might just help:-)
> >>>
> >>>
> > ___
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Re: opened socket in IDE prevents script changes

2021-01-15 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I'm seeing exactly the same range of behaviours I described earlier for
9.5.1 on Win 10 but with 9.6.1 on OS X.

It's very strange that Alex is also editing scripts with sockets
opened/closed but  not losing changes made in the script editor. I also had
3 crashes on OS X within 30 minutes of working on this stack.

Alex, are you using the IDE's script editor or some external editor?  If
you are using that script editor, once you've opened a socket could you add
a comment to your stack script, apply, close the script editor, then edit
the script again to see if the comment has persisted?  I have to quit LC to
make any changes to a stack once I've opened a socket.

It seems to me that once a socket has been opened that the IDE is no longer
persisting changes.  I'm pretty sure I didn't see this behaviour on my
previous project using sockets.

Regards
Bernard

On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 12:21 PM Bernard Devlin  wrote:

> Thanks Alex for your quick response.
>
> I'll try with 9.6.1 on Mac.  The only other difference between us is that
> my sockets are interacting with a process outside of LC. But I can't see
> why that would make a difference (particularly once I've closed all
> sockets, I wouldn't expect sockets to interfere with scripts being
> changed).
>

> Regards,
> Bernard
>
> On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 12:07 PM Alex Tweedly via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> I've not seen any such problems - though with 9.6.1 / Mac.
>>
>> I've spent most of the last week in the IDE, with two or more stacks
>> open (one server, one client - occasionally multiple client stacks) so I
>> have multiple open sockets (both 'accept'ing and 'open'ed)  almost all
>> the time, and had no problems with IDE or script editor.
>>
>> (I know - that's no consolation, but I thought I'd mention it in case
>> 9.6.1 was an option for you and might just help:-)
>>
>>
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Re: opened socket in IDE prevents script changes

2021-01-15 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
"do i understand it correctly that both, server and client stack, can
communicate with each other using sockets in one instance of the LC IDE"

Your understanding is correct. On the other project (where I didn't have
this current problem) I had half a dozen clients and 1 "server" running in
the IDE.

On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 2:47 PM matthias rebbe via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Alex,
> for a new project which should include socket communication  i have to
> prototype a short "demo" and i was already wondering if i need to have
> running 2 instances of the LC IDE for development.
>
> But now you wrote that you had one server and even multiple client stacks
> opened in LC.
> So do i understand it correctly that both, server and client stack, can
> communicate with each other using sockets in one instance of the LC IDE?
>
>
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Re: opened socket in IDE prevents script changes

2021-01-15 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Thanks Alex for your quick response.

I'll try with 9.6.1 on Mac.  The only other difference between us is that
my sockets are interacting with a process outside of LC. But I can't see
why that would make a difference (particularly once I've closed all
sockets, I wouldn't expect sockets to interfere with scripts being changed).

Regards,
Bernard

On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 12:07 PM Alex Tweedly via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I've not seen any such problems - though with 9.6.1 / Mac.
>
> I've spent most of the last week in the IDE, with two or more stacks
> open (one server, one client - occasionally multiple client stacks) so I
> have multiple open sockets (both 'accept'ing and 'open'ed)  almost all
> the time, and had no problems with IDE or script editor.
>
> (I know - that's no consolation, but I thought I'd mention it in case
> 9.6.1 was an option for you and might just help:-)
>
>
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opened socket in IDE prevents script changes

2021-01-15 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
This is a strange phenomenon.I wonder if anyone else has seen this.

Livecode 9.5.1 Windows 10.

If a socket is opened then changes to scripts in the IDE are not
applied/saved.  There's no error message. It *appears* from the IDE that
the changes are applied (i.e. the changes are visible in the script editor,
the "apply" button indicates the script is no longer dirty).

*Even if the socket is then closed and changes made this problem occurs.*
There are also many crashes of the IDE in working on scripts involving
sockets.  It's because of these crashes that I realised changes are not
applied.

Once a socket has been opened/closed then in the IDE the stack cannot be
closed/reopened without closing/reopening the entire IDE. Saving the stack
from the message box also results in the (not really applied) changes being
saved.

Regards
Bernard
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Re: Some sad news

2020-12-04 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
That's very sad news. I'd noticed he had been quiet on the forum. HH made
some truly extraordinary contributions. Just a few days ago I was just
looking at his Jigsaw HTML5 app, and was astonished at what he had
achieved.  He might not have been happy with the limitations in the HTML5
standalone, but he pushed what could be done to the max, inspiring many of
us to look at what was possible rather than on what was not possible.

I've never been part of an online community for so long that I've seen half
a dozen great contributors pass away. HH always went the extra mile with
any problem in our community where he got involved.  He will be missed :(

On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 12:07 PM Heather Laine via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Dear List Folks,
>
> I have today received some sad news. I am told that Hermann Hoch passed
> away in April this year, from a stroke. I know many of you knew him either
> remotely or having met him in person at a conference. He will be missed. I
> met him myself and found him to be a wonderfully warm and kind person. He
> could be volatile, but I always felt it was because he cared passionately
> about things.
>
> I will take what steps I can to preserve his legacy of HTML5 examples. As
> these are hosted on an on-rev account we should be able to maintain it in
> perpetuity for the benefit of the LiveCode Community.
>
> LiveCode HTML5 didn't always meet his expectations or progress as fast as
> he wanted it to and I do wish he could have seen our next planned release,
> where HTML5 support will be a focus. He was of great benefit to this
> community and shared his expertise freely.
>
> I'm not sure what else I can say. Rest in peace hh, you will be missed :(
>
> Heather
>
>
> Heather Laine
> Customer Services Manager
> LiveCode Ltd
> www.livecode.com
>
>
>
>
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Re: Naive XML questions

2020-10-25 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
In his reply to you I think Alex is suggesting you use the handlers that
come with the  Datagrid.  These can convert xml to a LC array.  You might
find it easier just to deal with a familair data structure rather than
learn XML.

I found them here: http://revonline2.runrev.com/stack/571/XMLAndArrays

But the handlers are also to be found inside the datagrid library in the
IDE (I suspect they are more up to date).

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 5:22 PM Graham Samuel via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I feel stupid, but even with Sarah Reichelt’s help, there are very very
> simple things I can’t do with the LC XML functions. My current problem is
> this:
>
> I have a series of XML files which are in fact .gpx files - a collection
> of GPS coordinates representing a route on the Earth’s surface. There are
> thousands of files around which I can use as test data, so I don’t have to
> roll my own. Taking just one of these examples, I can do the following in LC
>
> 1. Get the user to find the file and download it
>
> 2. Check it’s a .gpx file
>
> 3. Turn it into an LC XML data structure with an integer ID
>
> 4. Find out how many child nodes there are.
>
> Then it all goes wrong, because I don’t seem to be able to address the
> individual nodes. This is obviously needed for further progress, in
> functions like revXMLFirstChild  and revXMLNodeContents.
>
> I just don’t know what format to use. Sarah’s tutorial doesn’t help
> because her data structure is too simplified.
>
> If you’re still with me, this is what the beginning of a typical file
> looks like:
>
> > 
> > http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1; creator="Digital Crow"
> version="1.0" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance;
> xsi:schemaLocation="http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1
> http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1/gpx.xsd;>
> >  
> >  
> >
>
> > 
> > 169.623637 
>
> > 
> > 169.744722 
>
> > 
> > 169.744722 
>
> > 
> > 169.266626 
> >
> etc - there may sometimes be thousands of these “trkpt” elements.
>
> So, suppose I want to get the first instance of the “lon” attribute into a
> local variable. How do I address the first  node etc in order to do
> it? I have attempted various common-sense methods, but none work.
>
> This must be child’s play to a lot of people, just not me.
>
> Hoping for some guidance.
>
> Graham
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Re: Script Editor freezes in Windows 10 (was Can't edit scripts in DataGrid group in Windows 10)

2020-10-23 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi Martin

In the Script Editor try unchecking the various entries under Edit/Options
e.g. variable checking, live errors, etc.

I've recently moved to using LC on OS X and was surprised how snappy the
editor was i.e. I didn't need to switch off most of those things as I did
on Windows 10.

I don't have any advice about Proj Browser, as I almost never used it.

Regards, Bernard

On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 1:31 AM Martin Koob via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Another bit of info regarding the length of script where this happens.
>
> I have been going through the project browser trying to open small scripts
> then opening those with more and more lines.   I found that a script with
> 53 lines opens, a script with 62 lines freezes.
>
> anyway.  Down with this for tonight.  Hope someone has some ideas as to
> what might be going on and how to solve it.
>
> Martin
>
>
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Re: LC iOS Command 'mergPopActivity'

2020-10-21 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi Graham

I wondered if this information is of use.  URL calls are not limited to
"http://;.

Having a LC app respond to a URL call:
http://lessons.livecode.com/m/4069/l/58672-using-custom-url-schemes

Apps and their URL schemas:
https://ios.gadgethacks.com/news/always-updated-list-ios-app-url-scheme-names-0184033/

Regards
Bernard

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 4:33 PM Graham Samuel via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

So far I have not found out how to invoke another app directly from inside
> an iOS app, although I think I can invoke a browser using a URL. Perhaps
> this is easier than I thought. Will report.
>
> Graham
>
>
>
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Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

2020-10-18 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Which is why my sentence finishes with "... to be in a situation to take on
this level of complexity." :-)

Apple first bought the domain iphone.org in 1999. That the iPhone was under
development was even being discussed by mainstream media such as the New
York Times in 2002. The public availability of the iPhone was announced by
Apple at the start of January 2007. Those with an ear to the ground would
have been considering their future options between 2002 and 2007. I'm glad
they had the foresight I didn't have.

Kind regards,
Bernard


On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 7:45 PM Richmond via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> That sounds super if it were true, but I don't think it is as RunRev (as
> they then were) dropped support for SPARC, UNIX and so
> forth a long time before they began work on mobile platforms.
>
> Richmond.
>
>
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Re: Livecode server UNIX version (not Linux).

2020-10-16 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
 Hi Heriberto

Back in the day (20 years ago) the engine/IDE ran on FreeBSD and various
proprietary unixes.

The Linux server version has been seen to work on FreeBSD back in 2011
(after installing Linux compatibility layer).

http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Yay-Victory-RevServer-runs-on-FreeBSD-with-Linux-Compat-installed-td3445454.html

You _might_ be able to get that to work now.  I doubt it would be supported
by Livecode.  What amazes me nowadays is just how much more complex things
are than they were 20 years ago - looking at the compatibility matrix for
Livecode dependencies on OS version, XCode version, device version -- all
just to produce apps that run on iOS:

https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/faq/faq/

If someone had said 20 years ago that a small company in Scotland could
manage that kind of complexity people would have laughed in disbelief.  But
rightly LC saw where the future was headed with mobile computing and they
obviously had to make sacrifices along the way (e.g. FreeBSD, etc) to be in
a situation to take on this level of complexity.

HTH Bernard

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 5:08 PM Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I have a question.   It's not a very important question and I don’t want
> to bother you y 'all, so if you think is off-topic, feel free to not to
> respond,  I'm just curious.
>
> I've been working with Livecode for almost five years, and I never saw a
> LiveCode server  "UNIX" version.
>
> The LiveCode Wikipedia’s article says this: LiveCode runs on iOS, Android,
> OS X, Windows 95 through Windows 10, Raspberry Pi and "several variations
> of Unix (I think is just means Linux)".
>
> I'm thinking about tinkering with a FreeBSD server and LiveCode server,
> but I didn't see a "UNIX" version, so I suppose that I have to compile it.
> Have any of you installed LiveCode server on FreeBSD (or Solaris)?
>
> I'm just thinking, but maybe there's a small niche working  with LiveCode
> server on BSD or Solaris (still many companies use them and not many people
> develop software for this platforms nowadays).
> We have a few companies in Spain (my country) still using Solaris or BSD
> servers (mainly in the Graphic arts business).
>
> PS, I currently work with LiveCode Server on Centos, but it could be
> interesting  to test it in FreeBSD.
>
> Best regards/ Saludos cordiales/ Cordialement
>
> Heriberto Torrado
> ​Chief Technology Officer (CTO)
> ​Director de informática
> Directeur informatique
>
> https://networkdreams.net
>
>
>
>
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Re: Fun with the templateimage

2020-10-15 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
This works:

export snapshot from rect tRect of window tWinID at size tDim1,tDim2 to
file tFile as GIF

I saw a report in the forum saying that this scaled incorrectly if the
snapshot was of a text field, but in my tests this was not a problem.

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 11:34 AM Bernard Devlin  wrote:

> Richard, just FYI
>
> The dictionary (LC 9.5.1) does say that "export snapshot ... at size
> x,x..." is supported since version 6.0, but I can't get it to change the
> size of the exported image.  I'll add a note here if I get it to work.
>
> On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 4:38 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> The "import snapshot" command had an "at size" option added several
>> versions ago to facilitate some scaling tasks:
>>
>> import snapshot from the selectedObject at size 100,100
>>
>> But oddly, no such option has been added to the "export snapshot" command.
>>
>> --
>>   Richard Gaskin
>>   Fourth World Systems
>>
>>
>>
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Re: Fun with the templateimage

2020-10-15 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Richard, just FYI

The dictionary (LC 9.5.1) does say that "export snapshot ... at size
x,x..." is supported since version 6.0, but I can't get it to change the
size of the exported image.  I'll add a note here if I get it to work.

On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 4:38 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> The "import snapshot" command had an "at size" option added several
> versions ago to facilitate some scaling tasks:
>
> import snapshot from the selectedObject at size 100,100
>
> But oddly, no such option has been added to the "export snapshot" command.
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>
>
>
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Re: Getting URL to Work in specialFolderDocuments

2020-10-05 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
 Hi

I get a headache looking at concatenations like this.  I don't use them
unless I'm constructing a simple string.

  put URL (tHttpsServerRoot & sStoryTitle & "/" & sStoryTitle &
".livecode") into tLocalDocumentsStories & sStoryTitle & "/" & sStoryTitle
& ".livecode"

It will be a cold day in hell when I don't use Merge() to construct
non-simple strings.

*put* "blurb1" into sStoryTitle

*put* "https://dev.himalayanacademy.com/media/stories/; into
tHttpsServerRoot

*put* specialFolderPath("Documents") & "/SivaSivaApp/media/stories/" into
tLocalDocumentsStories

*if* char -1 of tHttpsServerRoot is "/" *then* *delete* char -1 of
tHttpsServerRoot ## deleting "/" to make merge() template clearer

*if* char -1 of tLocalDocumentsStories is "/" *then* *delete* char -1 of
 tLocalDocumentsStories

*put* merge(  "[[tHttpsServerRoot
]]/[[sStoryTitle]]/[[sStoryTitle]].livecode" ) into tSourceURL

*put* merge( "binfile:[[tLocalDocumentsStories]]/[[
sStoryTitle]]/[[sStoryTitle]].livecode" ) into tDestURL
put URL  tSourceURL into URL tDestURL


On each of the above lines one can use breakpoints to check the values of
the variables and at the last line check that the URLs to use are correct.

Merge() will ignore spaces within [[]] and outside of the quotes around the
template string, so one can line up placeholders to check that all the
template parts match visually.

HTH
Bernard

On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 11:00 PM Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode
 wrote:

> on dataServerStack
>local tHttpsServerRoot,tLocalDocumentsStories
>put "https://dev.himalayanacademy.com/media/stories/; --into
> tHttpsServerRoot
>put specialFolderPath("Documents") & "/SivaSivaApp/media/stories/" into
> tLocalDocumentsStories
>put URL (tHttpsServerRoot & sStoryTitle & "/" & sStoryTitle &
> ".livecode") into tLocalDocumentsStories & sStoryTitle & "/" & sStoryTitle
> & ".livecode"
> end dataServerStack
>
> it goes badly to documents folder,
>
> on dataServerStack
>local tHttpsServerRoot,tLocalDocumentsStories
>put "https://dev.himalayanacademy.com/media/stories/; into
> tHttpsServerRoot
>put specialFolderPath("Documents") & "/SivaSivaApp/media/stories/" into
> tLocalDocumentsStories
>put URL (tHttpsServerRoot & sStoryTitle & "/" & sStoryTitle &
> ".livecode") into tLocalDocumentsStories & sStoryTitle & "/" & sStoryTitle
> & ".livecode"
> end dataServerStack
>
> it goes badly to documents folder,
>
> ?
> put URL (tHttpsServerRoot & sStoryTitle & "/" & sStoryTitle & ".livecode")
> into tLocalDocumentsStories & sStoryTitle & "/" & sStoryTitle & ".livecode"
>
> Compile error line 119 (Handler: bad command) near "&", char 84
>
>
> BR
>
>
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Re: Accessing files on a local network file server - BEST PRACTICE?

2020-09-25 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
>>
So that in case (1) , we regenerate the file and in case (2) we present
a warning that the server is disconnected or down?
<<

For (2) you could save an empty file (as a flag of availability) and set
it's attribute to hidden.

If the file is not there when you get the files, then the folder is
unavailable.  Because it's a hidden file, users won't see it if they open
the folder using (most) other applications (Explorer only shows such files
if the 'show hidden' checkbox is ticked).

This file can then be filtered out based on file name when you get the
files of that folder to present to the user. It's just your internal check
for folder availability.  I guess there are some "net use" commands that
would show which shares are available/unavailable, but it's a long time
since I did that kind of system admin.

To programmatically set a file attribute to hidden on Windows use the shell
command to issue this "attrib +h _ServerAvailable.txt"

Hope that helps.

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 9:54 PM Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> This question may have an obvious answer, but I am brain dead today, so
> here goes:
>
> I have a app installed with some customers in a Windows network
> environment. They have all their laptops set so that their Home
> directories are on a local network server.
>
> So, where as on a local laptop, specialFolderPath("documents") might
> return "C:/Users//Documents" as the path, for them
> specialFolderPath("documents") returns something like
> "//s1.somedomain.com/mountPoint//Documents"
>
> We save a number of folders and files in the user's Documents folder. In
> some cases, if the file is not present (i.e. if there is a file tFile is
> false) we regenerate the file from a default.
>
> Sometime, the server is offline or the user is disconnected from the
> network.
>
> What is a good way to differentiate between:
>
> 1) one of these files is not present so must be regenerated, i.e
>
> if there is not a file (specialFolderPath("documents"))
> then
>-- regenerate the file tFile at location specialFolderPath("documents")
>
> Versus
>
> 2) The Server (//s1.somedomain.com/ is disconnected to down?
>
> So that in case (1) , we regenerate the file and in case (2) we present
> a warning that the server is disconnected or down?
>
> Mu gut says this should be simple, but I just can not wrap my brain
> around it today.
>
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Re: Adding items to a group

2020-08-26 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Whilst Mark provided what Phil needed, I too cannot believe how easy and
reliable Geoff's Navigator is.  I use it for everything. When I need an
Inspector a double-click on a line in Navigator brings it up.  I love it.

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 7:14 PM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Also, Geoff Canyon wrote a GREAT utility called Navigator, which among
> other things, allows you to drag objects around in a hierarchical list. If
> you drag an object in a group to somewhere outside that group, into another
> group let’s say, it does all the relaying for you.
>
>
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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I wondered how Java dealt with the issue of rendering fonts across
platforms. It seems they have (had) the same problems you are experiencing.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/12202758/how-to-make-java-swing-application-has-a-consistent-font-in-windows-and-linux

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/11994407/using-java-to-develop-cross-platform-fonts-scaling-differently-on-different-pla

Those posts are 8 years old (that they've been viewed 1000s of times
suggests this is pain that was felt by many). Maybe things have changed for
the better in Javaland. But it's more likely that Java is less used for
desktop apps than it was 8 years ago. I know that I only use one Java app
across my computers.

Regards
Bernard

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 5:03 AM Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Yet again, everyone happy to make excuses in accepting their fate to have
> to do all the work twice. I might as well code it in Java, C# and Swift for
> all the hassle I get in LC. It's laughable how excuses are made for them.
>
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
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Re: breakpoint causes 3 second delay then exit to top

2020-07-27 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Here's another data point for this oddity.

Once the IDE starts tripping out from breakpoints and I restart Livecode to
fix the problem, the behavior in which the breakpoints stop working has
"detached" from the object pointing to it.  I say "detached", as the object
still shows in the Inspector that it is pointing to the behavior-containing
control and choosing to edit the behavior script from the object's
Inspector opens up the relevant behavior in the Script Editor.  Breakpoints
work once again when I once more point the object's Inspector at the object
it knows contains the behavior script

Somewhere inside LC this connection is being lost.  At the moment the only
variable I've been able to isolate as a cause is: how many hours I've had
LC open working on this project.

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 7:35 PM Bernard Devlin  wrote:

> I found later that the same thing was happening away from this code block,
> and with just a red breakpoint.
>
> As I don't restart my PC for weeks on end, I quit LC and restarted.  Both
> of these strange error situations disappeared.  Which suggests that it is
> some complex condition (either within my app or within the IDE) that leads
> to this situation.
>
>
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Re: breakpoint causes 3 second delay then exit to top

2020-07-17 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I found later that the same thing was happening away from this code block,
and with just a red breakpoint.

As I don't restart my PC for weeks on end, I quit LC and restarted.  Both
of these strange error situations disappeared.  Which suggests that it is
some complex condition (either within my app or within the IDE) that leads
to this situation.

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 5:09 PM Ludovic THEBAULT via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>
> > Le 17 juil. 2020 à 13:52, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> a écrit :
> >
> > This is mystifying in so many ways.  I've seen this a few times and I'm
> at
> > a loss to explain it. It's LC 9.5.1 on Windows 10.
> >
> > *When the code gets to the above breakpoint, the debugger exits to top.
> It
> > takes about 3 seconds with the debugger sitting at the breakpoint before
> > the engine exits to top.*
> >
>
> Hello,
>
> I've already had the same behavior but I noticed that it happens when
> there is an error in the executed code (but an error that doesn't block the
> execution of the script !). By fixing the script, the breakpoint then works
> as it should.
>
> Maybe there is an error in your script (before the code you displayed
> here).
>
> Ludovic
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breakpoint causes 3 second delay then exit to top

2020-07-17 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
 This is mystifying in so many ways.  I've seen this a few times and I'm at
a loss to explain it. It's LC 9.5.1 on Windows 10.

I have a simple conditional, where I want to stop execution and debug some
following actions. Here's the code:

*try*

  *if* "15474" is in tControlLongId *then*

   *put* the long time && tControlLongId

   *breakpoint*

  *end* *if*

*catch* tErr

  *put* "error:" && tErr

*end* *try*



*When the code gets to the above breakpoint, the debugger exits to top. It
takes about 3 seconds with the debugger sitting at the breakpoint before
the engine exits to top.*


* A long id containing "15474" is put into the message box. *


*If I comment out that condition, then the code runs to completion.  *

*The Catch clause never catches any error.*

* If I try to use a red breakpoint in the gutter, the debugger exits to top
(again, after the IDE has sat at the breakpoint for about 3  seconds). *

*So the condition triggers.  The variable has the tested value. The value
of that variable can be expressed.  But it looks like the very act of
invoking the debugger causes the code to fail, and in a way where even a
try/catch block cannot intercept.*


*Mystifying. And a significant bug IMO, rendering interactive debugging
impossible.*


*Kind regards, Bernard *
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Re: DataGrid question...

2020-04-03 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi Bernd

Your modTableField is very impressive.  Reminds me of the work of the late,
great Eric Chatonet (author of many works on Hypercard).  I see only one
slight problem: after I click into a cell a trace of the I beam is left
behind on leaving the cell (this becomes visible on selecting another
row).  I guess this is a LC bug.  If I click away (e.g. on the "examples"
tabbed button) the trace vanishes.  If I click on the column header to sort
and re-sort, the I beam trace is still there in the field in which I
clicked. If I click in the output field that also does not remove the I
beam vestige.

But apart from that visual vestige, in 20 minutes of playing with mTF I was
very impressed.  BTW, in case you have not seen this yourself, this vestige
was visible for me with LC 9.5.1 on Windows 10.

Regards, Bernard

On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 10:44 PM Niggemann, Bernd via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> >Peter Bogdanoff wrote:
>
> >Does anyone have a link to obtain Bernd's modTableField ?
>
> Here is a link to the latest version of modifiedTableField
>
> berndniggemann.on-rev.com/mtf/modTableField.zip<
> http://berndniggemann.on-rev.com/mtf/modTableField.zip>
>
> there is a zip of a demo stack with a helper stack and a .rtf document
> with the API
>
> Use the demo stack to explore modTableField. Have a little patience to
> explore. It shows many options. Please have a look at the API document to
> get a feeling how to address and query modTableField.
>
> If you want to use modTableField in a project copy the group
> "modTableField 1" from the demo stack to your stack and use the API to work
> with it.
>
> This version is HTML5 safe. There was a superfluous wait in former
> versions. Hermann used tinyDict with his HTML5 demo of an IDE.
>
> tinyDictionary uses modTableField
>
> There are a couple of users that seem quite content with modTableField
> (thanks Jerry for mentioning it)
>
> I would be happy to know if anybody uses modTableField in a project.
> (aside from the people that mailed me before).
>
> If you have questions please feel free to email me.
>
> Kind regards
> Bernd
>
>
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Re: The Roadmap

2019-10-30 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 7:00 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> If it were up to me I'd ditch it altogether.
>

 Whatever frustrations I have with Livecode they are vastly outweighed by
the things that it can do and the things it can do now that it couldn't do
a decade ago.

I don't think people appreciate what an incredible achievement it is.  As I
used to be a Lotus Notes developer, I can see the contrast.  IBM recently
sold their Lotus technologies to an Indian company for $1.8bn. Over the
last ten years a company the size of IBM could not successfully manage the
development of a cross-platform application development environment.   For
an entire decade IBM only added the v.9 release and fixpacks (and Notes 9.0
was actually Notes 8.5.4 but re-branded).

Notes used to exist in native clients for OS/2, Windows, MacOS.  IBM
jettisoned the native clients and moved to running the entire thing inside
the JVM.  It took IBM about 15 years to move from Notes 7 to Notes 10.
When I recently downloaded Notes 10 to do some programming on thousands of
emails (the very thing where Notes should shine) the client crashed
repeatedly on trying to import the emails.  Bear in mind that Notes even
has a menu action to import emails from a folder, so importing emails to
process the text is not even something that requires any programming, it's
that basic to the product.  Having moved from programming in C with all the
possible problems with pointers and memory allocation, Notes was moved to a
language with garbage collection and memory management and still the client
crashes doing basic things it could do 15 years ago.

By comparison in the last 10 to 15 years Livecode has added app delivery
for iOS, Android, Linux, Windows64 and HTML5 to Windows32 and OSX.  That's
more than IBM ever managed to do and a movement in the opposite direction
to that taken by IBM.  And as well as doing this Livecode re-architected
the engine.   IBM's major new feature over the last decade (XPages) looks
like it is now almost certainly going to be thrown away.  By moving to the
JVM for the development environment IBM was banking on delivering most
Notes apps as web apps.

Obviously the Notes servers do a whole range of things that Livecode
doesn't do.  But these server-side technologies were mostly in the Notes
product 15 years ago. Going back 15 years ago and Livecode was at v2.5.
Remember back then?  The clipboarddata was a new thing.  We didn't have a
built-in web browser, nor multi-dimensional arrays, nor unicode, nor the
datagrid, nor behaviors, nor widgets, nor xslt,  nor the enhanced liburl.
That's just off the top of my head.

IBM with all their resources and access to capital markets couldn't hold
themselves to their own limited roadmap.  Livecode has successfully moved
forward with a cross-platform solution when IBM couldn't do so.  And
without having $billions to play with.  They shouldn't attempt to hold to a
roadmap when the elephant in the room can't do it.  And IBM never allowed
businesses to use Notes for free nor did they open the source code.
Livecode did that and has a free edition which contains probably 99% of the
functionality of the most expensive license.

I think many of us lose sight of this small company's achievements.

Regards, Bernard
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Re: Thank you for the 9.0.5 update

2019-10-10 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
>>
I created a play/test stack yesterday - 1 button 2 functions and a mousup
of a couple of lines no more than 30 lines of code. Did some debugging and
got a crash
in less than 15 minutes.
<<

I was getting multiple random crashes with a test stack in 9.5 that were
apparently totally unrelated to debugging.   Having not seen such crashes
for years, I assumed that it was the introduction of the 64bit build for
Windows. So I switched to using the 32bit build for Windows and the random
crashes continued.  I haven't got anywhere with finding a reproducible
pattern.

Regards, Bernard
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Re: livecode connect framework

2019-04-19 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Does anyone know if LiveCode Connect ever come out of beta?  I have a
project coming up which uses OpenAPI and it would save me a lot of work if
Connect is available.

Regards, Bernard

On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 9:03 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> if the only hint is that its available to all attendees of the conference,
> we can't be sure i guess we will find out...what a great feature for LC
> and its bright future.  In a way i am indifferent, since I can build my own
> handlers to talk to any api i want and i do want livecode inc to
> prosper ALOT, so if they decide its a non-community feature thats ok with
> me.
>
>
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Enhancement: transparently persist/retrieve large amounts of array data as JSON

2019-02-04 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
As far as I can see, providing this enhancement is (in essence) no more
than the addition of one line to Livecode's compilation process.

Details here:

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=21821

Seems to me to be a huge gain for virtually no effort.  Array data could be
stored and indexed outside of a stack.

Regards
Bernard
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HTML5 severely undocumented

2018-12-24 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
As I'm trying to work out why it is that the datagrid does not work in
HTML5, I've realised that there are many really basic features of Livecode
that do not work in HTML5.  For instance, in a field the backspace key does
not work.  Moreover, it appears that the rawKeyDown message is not
implemented, so I can't implement my own backspacekey handler.

Surely the Dictionary should at least indicate which features are not
implemented?  When I start to go through the Dictionary, I can'd even
discover if something is implemented without building an HTML5 app and then
seeing if that command works.

We can't even rely on the Dictionary NOT mentioning HTML5 in the
Platform/OS category of the Dictionary entry as being indicative of whether
or not something is supported.  For example, the Dictionary entry for
"Create [button]" does not say that this is implemented in HTML5 but it
works (I found out through trial and error). So a command that's been in
xCard for some decades is not indicated as being implemented for HTML5.
But rawKeyDown has probably been in Livecode/Metacard for 20 years, but
that too is not listed as being implemented in the HTML5 engine. This
vagueness about what should work and what doesn't is woefully inadequate.

It is over 4 years since the HTML5 standalone was first funded, and I think
3 years since it was first working (for some definition of working). Surely
it should by now at least be documented what works and what does not?
Considering that Runrev expects most customers to pay an additional license
for HTML5 deployment this is very disappointing.

Here's what Kevin said in 2014. "Anywhere you can run an HTML5 capable
browser, you will be able to run your app."  Now I'm sure that there are
limitations imposed by the emscripten engine that Livecode over which
Livecode have no control.  But at the very least, there should have been a
list of Livecode features that don't work in HMTL5.

I'm not expecting any reply to this until after christmas.  But I need to
get it off my chest.  After being away from Livecode for some years, I am
disappointed to find I can't even work out if I can use HTML5 except
through trial and error.

Regards
Bernard
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Datagrids in HTML5

2018-12-24 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi folks

Am I mistaken in thinking datagrids are now supposed to work in HTML5?  My
datagrid and its contents display, but clicking on column headers has no
effect.

I ensured that the datagrid library was being included in the standalone
settings. The datagrid template substack of the mainstack is listed in the
HTML5 app as a substack.  However, when a pertinent "do" command e.g.

set the dgProps["show header"] of grp "datagrid 1" to false

is issued in the HTML5 app, it has no effect. I built the same stack for
Windows and HTML5, and the datagrid works as expected in the Windows
executable.

If datagrids don't work for HTML5, then I'm surprised they display at all.
Is there a list somewhere of what is supposed to work in HTML5 and what
does not work?

Regards
Bernard
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Re: WordReport Registration

2018-12-10 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Thanks Matthias.  I did try variations of what I thought were a likely
names for the registration handler (but that wasn't one of my guesses for
the likely handler name).

The file "WordReport Registered Uses.pdf" is not included in the zip file
that is downloaded from within our user area on livecode.com.  I saw it
mentioned somewhere in the stacks/pdfs.  If you could email me a copy of
that file to bdrunrev at gmail, that might help too.

The beauty of the WordReport concept is that it puts report-writing in the
hands of the user.

Regards
Bernard

On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 9:17 AM Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Bernard,
>
> this is done with registerWordReport.
>
> The following is an excerpt from the file "WordReport Registered Uses.pdf"
> which was included in the download file, at least when i downloaded it.
>
>
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WordReport Registration

2018-12-09 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi all

I've got a copy of this as part of one of my previous Livecode purchases.
How does one go about using the registration code?

The "Try WordReport" stack says either to buy a registration code *or* to
simply use the code if one has it. Neither of the PDF files which come with
the stack explains how to use the registration code.

I'd contact the provider of the software but I've seen numerous messages
saying he doesn't respond to emails that I thought I'd ask an existing user.

Regards
Bernard
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Re: LiveCoders from London, lets meet!

2018-11-13 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I live outside London, but easy enough to get in to meet up.

On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 2:14 PM Keith Martin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi Andre,
>
> I'm based in London – I live in Mitcham/Tooting and I work in Elephant
> & Castle. I'm game!
>
> k
>
>
> On 9 Nov 2018, at 17:04, Andre Alves Garzia via use-livecode wrote:
>
> > Hey Friends,
> >
> > Who here is from London or nearby and would be interested in regular
> > meetups? We could meet once a month or so in a pub or quieter setting.
> > I am thinking of informal meet & drink, chatting.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > andre
> >
> >
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Re: LC 9.0 Windows - tooltip broken for new datagrid?

2018-10-17 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Thanks.
If it's not supposed to work then best to remove it from the property
inspector so the product doesn't appear buggy to new users.

I have Livecode 5.5 on another machine.  I'll see if the tooltip works
there.  I see no reason why a datagrid (even if it is a fancy group)
shouldn't have a tooltip the way other UI controls have one.  I guess these
features are not even used on mobile interfaces, so maybe they are "legacy".

Either way I'll enter this as a bug for the 9.x series.
Bernard

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 4:18 PM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Actually, everything in a datagrid is an object of some sort with it's own
> tooltip (empty by default). There would have to be special code to display
> the tooltip for a datagrid instead of the tooltip for the object you are
> pointing at.
>
> I tested in a new stack and the tooltip for a datagrid NEVER displays. Not
> even sure why it's there.
>
> Bob S
>
>
>
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LC 9.0 Windows - tooltip broken for new datagrid?

2018-10-16 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Am I right that this is broken?

A new stack with a single button will show the button's tooltip when the
pointer hovers over it.
Add a datagrid, and set the tooltip for the datagrid through the inspector.
The tooltip does not display no matter where the pointer is in the datagrid.

Regards
Bernard
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sqlite config/compilation files on github

2018-08-12 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi all

Could anyone point me to the file(s) on github determining how the sqlite
external is configured and built.  I've had a look round, but I can't seem
to find the relevant file.  I'm looking for the location at which the
full-text search option is configured.

Regards, Bernard
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Re: LC on Windows - slow for others or just me?

2018-05-01 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I've been using the final version of LC9 on Windows 7.  I don't have these
kinds of problems with any other program.  I didn't notice it with earlier
DP versions on the same machine (although admittedly I would leap-frog over
many DP point versions, so I can't say at what point this problem was
introduced).

In the default install it is so slow it is unusable.  I switched off many
of the recent auto-complete, live error, etc. features, and it became more
usable.

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I use LC 9 on a Surface Pro 4 Machine, it is almost unusable. Everything is
> as slow as molasses. Typing a script sometimes takes many seconds to
> respond and it even goes as far as missing keystrokes. Trying to drag and
> drop stuff onto the stack is also horrible. I don't have any plugins
> anymore, this is a fresh install.
>
> I've been using this machine as my main machine for more than a year. LC is
> so slow for me (on a fast machine) that I go for my old mac sometimes to
> work. I have the impression that I am the only windows user here.
>
> On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 3:06 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Ralph DiMola wrote:
> >
> > > I have not reported it. I wasn't sure that my setup (VMs/bloated Adobe
> > > Products...) was causing it. It's time to open a QCC report on this.
> > > Do you want to report it or should I?
> >
> > I had put off reporting it since I run Win only in VMs right now, and had
> > been thinking it was just me.
> >
> > If you have a native install it may carry more weight.  Even better if
> you
> > have anything more actionably specific than my current whingeing
> > abstraction, "it's slow".
> >
> > I'm trying to get some time for comparative unit tests, but this week I'm
> > up against some hairy deadlines so not sure when I can get those
> together.
> >
> >
> > --
> >  Richard Gaskin
> >  Fourth World Systems
> >  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> >  
> >  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
> >
> > ___
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>
>
>
> --
> http://www.andregarzia.com -- All We Do Is Code.
> http://fon.nu -- minimalist url shortening service.
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Re: debugging a CEF browser instance

2017-07-08 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi Mark,

I suspect this is the problem. Is there a list of things which the LC
embedded browser forbids? Is there an explanation of the rationale for the
embedded browser to behave differently from a default browser?

This should be noted in the Dictionary, perhaps in the top entry
of: com.livecode.widget.browser.  Those who try Livecode for the first time
and discover that the browser widget "doesn't work reliably" (which is how
it appeared to me) may simply give up on Livecode.  Indeed, it might be
better if a warning appears when a page attempts to do something that has
been restricted (assuming the browser widget throws an exception when such
things happen).

Regards
Bernard

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 1:25 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>
> The fact it doesn't work in either Mac's WebView of CEF may suggest that
> the webpage
> is doing something which is 'not allowed' by default
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Re: debugging a CEF browser instance

2017-07-07 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
Hi Mark,

I've now found an app which has embedded the CEF browser within it.  This
embedded CEF browser has no trouble loading the page in question.

This makes it very clear that the problem relates to the way that LC is
embedding the CEF browser. This is also confirmed by the fact the page will
not load in LC browser widget on OS X.  Is there any way of debugging the
browser that is embedded in OS X? If not I'll have to put this project on
hold without any way to debug any browser instance.

Regards
Bernard

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 2017-07-06 08:39, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> Why?
>>
>
> In general there is a cost to logging - particularly CEF's which is very
> verbose. On Windows you might not notice (as stdout/stderr output is
> generally dumped to the equivalent of /dev/null), but on Linux if you
> happen to be working from the command-line and running UI stuff using the
> browser widget from there then you'll find your terminal flooded with CEF
> logging (and I mean flooded!).
>
> I don't think anyone has asked specifically about having it configurable
> before now - although I noticed it would be useful last month (
> http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=19862) whilst attempting to
> figure out why the browser widget only works on *some* linux installs
> (seems to be somewhat independent of distribution - the workarounds some
> people have found with regards the locale don't seem to work anymore).
>
> Unfortunately, we aren't any closer to solving the linux problem... After
> at least three of us spending more hours than I'd care to comment on trying
> to figure out what is happening there, we're working through a couple of
> tasks so that we can more easily update CEF to the latest version.
>
> In particular, making it so that we can build our 'prebuilts' (currently
> ICU, OpenSSL and Curl) on vulcan (doing it manually is arduous and
> intensely error prone). We can then move the building of the CEF library
> component to a prebuilt and automate its generation based on a version tag
> (we can thank Spotify for taking over the management of binary releases of
> CEF - http://opensource.spotify.com/cefbuilds/index.html - as they've
> made it much much easier).
>
> So we're currently involved in a (small) yak-shave in this regard...
> Although one which will also mean we can solve a couple of other issues -
> the size of ICU data (has anyone noticed that the 9 engines are somewhat
> bigger than 8? That's down in good part to the ICU data), and also the
> several minute increase per platform in build time due to the Skia update.
> I also hope that this means that over time we can eliminate the thirdparty
> submodule entirely - which would be one less point of friction in our
> source base.
>
> Incidentally, Bernard and Jonathon - I take it you are using the browser
> widget on Windows? (The reason I ask that is because CEF is only used on
> Windows and Linux - Mac/Android and iOS all use the built-in browser - all
> three are WebKit derived, like CEF).
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Mark.
>
> --
> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
>
>
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