Re: Mobile Device Physical Size
Ignore my last post. Garbage. I had overlooked a rather obvious fact of screen manufacturing: each method will have slight variance in terms of absolute PPI, resulting in variance not only in physical pixelDensity differences but in how accurately the OS will bother to account for them in terms of the approximated logical pixels. Screens aren't rulers. :) When you look at devices with sufficiently different screens, you can see that common elements like the status bar are slightly different from one device to another. LiveCode objects are no exception. This can be seen with pretty much all software. Near the beginning of the year when I was fleshing out layout mechanics for a couple apps I'm working on, I not only laid my test pool devices side by side, but also used a small mm ruler to see how consistently they render controls of a known size. The variance I saw and measured was about the same as what we see here between OSes, not small enough to be completely inconsequential but not large enough to matter for most things. As long as we don't try to make rulers on screen for measuring physical objects, we can likely account for reasonable object placement, even between platforms, well enough. It would be interesting to learn if Apple devices have visible/measurable differences in physical size of software objects between screens made using different manufacturing methods. But it does seem to be the case with Android. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Richard Gaskin had too much coffee when he wrote: Thanks, Brian. With your stats we now have our first anomaly, between the two platforms: The iOS math checks out in terms of the reported logical metrics matching the physical pixels per the pixel density. But when we compare the iPhone 5.5" screen with the LG Stylo 5.5" screen, LiveCode is telling us that the iPhone screen is both wider and taller. Of course given the same diagonal, one screen could be either wide or taller than the other, but not both. This suggests that Apple's APIs and/or LC's handling of the metrics is sufficiently different from how it works with Android that we might run into cross-platform issues where physical size matters. I wouldn't try to make a measuring ruler on a phone screen, but more practical use-cases might involve layouts that require us to put a lot of touchable areas into a small space, so figuring out the smallest practical size for a clickable element can be important. Or even just making sure text is of a sufficiently readable size without making it larger than needed on the other platform. If we set things up in a way that works well for Android, it seems we risk having things too small on iOS. Of course both OSes use their own APIs, and neither is required to adopt another vendor's method of accounting for things like pixel density. But it sure would be nice if we had a method as reliable between platforms as it seems to otherwise be within each platform. Maybe simplest if LC's pixel density could take into account the difference there apparently is between the two OSes. That's the sort of thing that makes a cross-platform tool valuable, though I recognize there may not be as simple as introducing a correction factor for pixel density; given the complexity of rendering/Skia, I suspect it's a bit more involved than that. I guess the only solution where physical size of controls between platforms may be especially important is for us to just remember that regardless of any specific physical pixel density, logical pixels will be reported to us as about 20% larger on iOS than on Android, and try to aim for somewhere in between. -- Richard Gaskin Brian Milby wrote: > iPhone6SPlus: 5.5" 1242x2208 414x736 414x736 3 > > On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 3:54 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode > wrote: > >> Yesterday, in reply to Ralph's post I included these notes about mobile >> metrics: >> >> > ...it seems that LC's resolution-independence works very much like >> > that of browsers (probably using the same OS APIs under the hood), >> > using logical metrics rather than physical. >> ... >> > I just ran a quick test to see how well that works: >> ... >> > Diag PhysicalWebLiveCode PxDensity >> > - >> > LG G Stylo Phone: 5.5" 720x1280 360x592 360x592 2 >> > Amazon F7 Tablet: 7.0" 600x1024 600x976 600x976 1 >> >> This morning I had some testing to do so I charged a couple older >> devices and ran my test on each to get: >> >> Samsung S4 Phone: 5.0" 1080x1920 360x640 360x640 3 >> Samsung S1 Phone: 4.0" 480x800 320x508* 320x534 1.5 ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
Re: Mobile Device Physical Size
Thanks, Brian. With your stats we now have our first anomaly, between the two platforms: The iOS math checks out in terms of the reported logical metrics matching the physical pixels per the pixel density. But when we compare the iPhone 5.5" screen with the LG Stylo 5.5" screen, LiveCode is telling us that the iPhone screen is both wider and taller. Of course given the same diagonal, one screen could be either wide or taller than the other, but not both. This suggests that Apple's APIs and/or LC's handling of the metrics is sufficiently different from how it works with Android that we might run into cross-platform issues where physical size matters. I wouldn't try to make a measuring ruler on a phone screen, but more practical use-cases might involve layouts that require us to put a lot of touchable areas into a small space, so figuring out the smallest practical size for a clickable element can be important. Or even just making sure text is of a sufficiently readable size without making it larger than needed on the other platform. If we set things up in a way that works well for Android, it seems we risk having things too small on iOS. Of course both OSes use their own APIs, and neither is required to adopt another vendor's method of accounting for things like pixel density. But it sure would be nice if we had a method as reliable between platforms as it seems to otherwise be within each platform. Maybe simplest if LC's pixel density could take into account the difference there apparently is between the two OSes. That's the sort of thing that makes a cross-platform tool valuable, though I recognize there may not be as simple as introducing a correction factor for pixel density; given the complexity of rendering/Skia, I suspect it's a bit more involved than that. I guess the only solution where physical size of controls between platforms may be especially important is for us to just remember that regardless of any specific physical pixel density, logical pixels will be reported to us as about 20% larger on iOS than on Android, and try to aim for somewhere in between. -- Richard Gaskin Brian Milby wrote: > iPhone6SPlus: 5.5" 1242x2208 414x736 414x736 3 > > On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 3:54 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode > wrote: > >> Yesterday, in reply to Ralph's post I included these notes about mobile >> metrics: >> >> > ...it seems that LC's resolution-independence works very much like >> > that of browsers (probably using the same OS APIs under the hood), >> > using logical metrics rather than physical. >> ... >> > I just ran a quick test to see how well that works: >> ... >> > Diag PhysicalWebLiveCode PxDensity >> > - >> > LG G Stylo Phone: 5.5" 720x1280 360x592 360x592 2 >> > Amazon F7 Tablet: 7.0" 600x1024 600x976 600x976 1 >> >> This morning I had some testing to do so I charged a couple older >> devices and ran my test on each to get: >> >> Samsung S4 Phone: 5.0" 1080x1920 360x640 360x640 3 >> Samsung S1 Phone: 4.0" 480x800 320x508* 320x534 1.5 ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Mobile Device Physical Size
iPhone6SPlus: 5.5" 1242x2208 414x736 414x736 3 On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 3:54 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode < use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Yesterday, in reply to Ralph's post I included these notes about mobile > metrics: > > > ...it seems that LC's resolution-independence works very much like > > that of browsers (probably using the same OS APIs under the hood), > > using logical metrics rather than physical. > ... > > I just ran a quick test to see how well that works: > ... > > Diag PhysicalWebLiveCode PxDensity > > - > > LG G Stylo Phone: 5.5" 720x1280 360x592 360x592 2 > > Amazon F7 Tablet: 7.0" 600x1024 600x976 600x976 1 > > This morning I had some testing to do so I charged a couple older devices > and ran my test on each to get: > > Samsung S4 Phone: 5.0" 1080x1920 360x640 360x640 3 > Samsung S1 Phone: 4.0" 480x800 320x508* 320x534 1.5 > > So now we have data from four devices with very different specs: > - four different resolutions > - four different physical sizes > - four different pixel densities > - four different Android versions > - three different vendors > > ...and in each case the screen metrics as understood by web browsers match > those LiveCode gives us (with the one minor exception in the oldest phone, > noted in the footnote below). > > It would be good to know if any of you testing with iOS devices get > results that don't like up as well as these. > > But from what I've seen so far, on Android (and in my limited testing on > iOS devices a few months ago) it looks like LC's resolution independence is > very reliable for object placement across devices with very different > display characteristics. > > > * I don't believe there's a version of FireFox available now for a phone > that old (I keep it in its original state with an older Android version for > testing), so the web test used the browser Samsung included on those > models. The difference of 26p is likely a bug (maybe counting the status > bar height twice?), one I've not seen in newer browsers. > > > -- > Richard Gaskin > Fourth World Systems > Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web > > ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Mobile Device Physical Size
Yesterday, in reply to Ralph's post I included these notes about mobile metrics: > ...it seems that LC's resolution-independence works very much like > that of browsers (probably using the same OS APIs under the hood), > using logical metrics rather than physical. ... > I just ran a quick test to see how well that works: ... > Diag PhysicalWebLiveCode PxDensity > - > LG G Stylo Phone: 5.5" 720x1280 360x592 360x592 2 > Amazon F7 Tablet: 7.0" 600x1024 600x976 600x976 1 This morning I had some testing to do so I charged a couple older devices and ran my test on each to get: Samsung S4 Phone: 5.0" 1080x1920 360x640 360x640 3 Samsung S1 Phone: 4.0" 480x800 320x508* 320x534 1.5 So now we have data from four devices with very different specs: - four different resolutions - four different physical sizes - four different pixel densities - four different Android versions - three different vendors ...and in each case the screen metrics as understood by web browsers match those LiveCode gives us (with the one minor exception in the oldest phone, noted in the footnote below). It would be good to know if any of you testing with iOS devices get results that don't like up as well as these. But from what I've seen so far, on Android (and in my limited testing on iOS devices a few months ago) it looks like LC's resolution independence is very reliable for object placement across devices with very different display characteristics. * I don't believe there's a version of FireFox available now for a phone that old (I keep it in its original state with an older Android version for testing), so the web test used the browser Samsung included on those models. The difference of 26p is likely a bug (maybe counting the status bar height twice?), one I've not seen in newer browsers. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: Mobile Device Physical Size
Thank you for bringing this to the list, Ralph:
> On Richards talk yesterday I brought this up and I am moving it to the
> list.
>
> Say you have 3 Android devices:
> 1) Phone sized.
> 2) Note sized.
> 3) Tablet sized.
> It is entirely possible that these 3 devices have the same(or close)
> number x/y of pixels.
> How can I determine the physical size of mobile devices? Web browsers
> are able to determine the device size or at least a phone vs. tablet.
> I would like to change the screen layout based on the physical size.
>
> I can determine a phone vs. tablet for Apple devices because of the
> limited number of iOS devices.
But we don't know what Apple will come up with next, so ideally what we
use can accommodate all devices on both iOS and Android, without having
to hard-wire values for any specific brand or model.
Earlier versions of LC may have been different, but in recent versions
it seems that LC's resolution-independence works very much like that of
browsers (probably using the same OS APIs under the hood), using logical
metrics rather than physical. This allows devs to place objects
reliably across devices where physical pixel density may vary.
I just ran a quick test to see how well that works:
Right now I have only two devices from my test pool charged, but they
make for a good comparison because their pixel density difference: a
mid-range phone (LG G Stylo) and a super-cheap tablet (Amazon Fire 7;
lists for $49, can find on sale now and then for $39 - great for
testing). Given the price difference between the two, it's not
surprising that this tablet has such low pixel density compared to the
phone which is both higher res and physically smaller.
To quickly assess browser metrics I went to WhatIsMyScreenResolution.com
in Firefox on each device. For LC I added a "Screen Size" button to a
test app to display the last two items from the screenRect function,
along with the value returned from mobilePixelDensity().
Here are the results:
Diag PhysicalWebLiveCode PxDensity
-
LG G Stylo Phone: 5.5" 720x1280 360x592 360x592 2
Amazon F7 Tablet: 7.0" 600x1024 600x976* 600x976 1
This is awesome. It looks like the core team's work on resolution
independence has paid off handsomely for us: we can use the same
general layout strategies web devs use with Responsive Design, with good
placement using logical coordinates that automatically account for
differences in density.
This is also good for our development workflow: leave your stack
resizable, and once you have your resizeStack handler written you can
test your object placement for any size by just grabbing the stack
window's corner and moving it around.
I don't have my iOS devices with me at the moment, but it would be
helpful to learn if any of you see any differences between the logical
pixels reported by browsers and those in LC on iOS.
* Note: If you use Amazon's pre-installed Silk browser the vertical size
of the Fire 7 is shown as 1024; apparently Silk reports the full screen
while Firefox and LiveCode subtract the height of the button row at the
bottom of the screen (48px) to reflect only usable space.
--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World Systems
Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
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Mobile Device Physical Size
On Richards talk yesterday I brought this up and I am moving it to the list. Say you have 3 Android devices: 1) Phone sized. 2) Note sized. 3) Tablet sized. It is entirely possible that these 3 devices have the same(or close) number x/y of pixels. How can I determine the physical size of mobile devices? Web browsers are able to determine the device size or at least a phone vs. tablet. I would like to change the screen layout based on the physical size. I can determine a phone vs. tablet for Apple devices because of the limited number of iOS devices. Ralph DiMola IT Director Evergreen Information Services rdim...@evergreeninfo.net ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
