Re: [OT] Alternative to Inkscape

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

At this point I can be really bitchy and ask why LiveCode is so daft as 
to have top-down numbers on the stack:

sure slowed things down for my kids working with LiveCode in the Summer.

Richmond.

On 10/5/17 6:08 pm, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

I suppose, but consider that we learned graphs all through school with a bottom 
up left to right coordinate system, so that seems to me more natural. Also with 
top down systems, you have to think that left to right numbers go up, but top 
down numbers go up. So down is up. Kinda like Pirates of the Caribbean.

Bob S



On Oct 5, 2017, at 07:58 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Alejandro Tejada wrote:


In my humble opinion, after 12 years it has to be easier
to convince WC3 to change the SVG standard and adopt
Inkscape bottomleft page origin... :D

If there needs to be a bad guy here maybe the better finger-wagging would be 
toward John Warnock, for approving a Postscript spec that uses a coordinate 
system unlike anything else in the computing world, bifurcating the software 
landscape into bottom-zero and top-zero camps.

And ever since the Postscript licensing debacle which eventually prompted 
everyone else to join together to replace Postscript fonts with TrueType (not 
to mention the dismally wonky PDF format), who doesn't enjoy picking on 
Warnock? ;)

--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World Systems
Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web


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Re: [OT] Alternative to Inkscape

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Bob Sneidar wrote:
>> On Oct 5, 2017, at 07:58 , Richard Gaskin wrote:
>> Alejandro Tejada wrote:
>> > In my humble opinion, after 12 years it has to be easier
>> > to convince WC3 to change the SVG standard and adopt
>> > Inkscape bottomleft page origin... :D
>>
>> If there needs to be a bad guy here maybe the better finger-wagging
>> would be toward John Warnock, for approving a Postscript spec that
>> uses a coordinate system unlike anything else in the computing world,
>> bifurcating the software landscape into bottom-zero and top-zero
>> camps.
>
> I suppose, but consider that we learned graphs all through school with
> a bottom up left to right coordinate system, so that seems to me more
> natural.

Maybe the bad guy is Euclid.

But even then one could argue that his thinking about coordinate systems 
was influenced by the natural world, where the earth has a surface and 
we measure things we make from that starting point upwards, rather than 
from an arbitrary point in the sky downwards.


In that view, maybe the bad guy is everyone who made a top-zero 
coordinate system, and Inkscape is among the few who've been doing 
things right the whole time. :)


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: [OT] Alternative to Inkscape

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

I suppose, but consider that we learned graphs all through school with a bottom 
up left to right coordinate system, so that seems to me more natural. Also with 
top down systems, you have to think that left to right numbers go up, but top 
down numbers go up. So down is up. Kinda like Pirates of the Caribbean. 

Bob S


> On Oct 5, 2017, at 07:58 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Alejandro Tejada wrote:
> 
> > In my humble opinion, after 12 years it has to be easier
> > to convince WC3 to change the SVG standard and adopt
> > Inkscape bottomleft page origin... :D
> 
> If there needs to be a bad guy here maybe the better finger-wagging would be 
> toward John Warnock, for approving a Postscript spec that uses a coordinate 
> system unlike anything else in the computing world, bifurcating the software 
> landscape into bottom-zero and top-zero camps.
> 
> And ever since the Postscript licensing debacle which eventually prompted 
> everyone else to join together to replace Postscript fonts with TrueType (not 
> to mention the dismally wonky PDF format), who doesn't enjoy picking on 
> Warnock? ;)
> 
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web


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Re: [OT] Alternative to Inkscape

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Alejandro Tejada wrote:

> In my humble opinion, after 12 years it has to be easier
> to convince WC3 to change the SVG standard and adopt
> Inkscape bottomleft page origin... :D

If there needs to be a bad guy here maybe the better finger-wagging 
would be toward John Warnock, for approving a Postscript spec that uses 
a coordinate system unlike anything else in the computing world, 
bifurcating the software landscape into bottom-zero and top-zero camps.


And ever since the Postscript licensing debacle which eventually 
prompted everyone else to join together to replace Postscript fonts with 
TrueType (not to mention the dismally wonky PDF format), who doesn't 
enjoy picking on Warnock? ;)


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: [OT] Alternative to Inkscape

[Thierry Douez via use-livecode]

2017-10-05 1:44 GMT+02:00 Alejandro Tejada
​:

I use Xara since many, many years ago. Their technical support is excellent
> and rarely (if ever) I had a problem with their application
> except a rare bug that I found, reported and they fixed.
>

​Since a couple of years, I have a graphic designer who works with Xara
(Win10) and
I adapt his works with Affinity Designer (MacOS)​. We can exchange our SVG
jobs
quite easily, and for me, not being a graphic designer at all, I find this
process easy enough.

Regards,

Thierry

-- 

Thierry Douez - sunny-tdz.com
sunnYrex - sunnYtext2speech - sunnYperl - sunnYmidi - sunnYmage
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Re: [OT] Alternative to Inkscape

[Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode]

Hi Richard,

Richard Gaskin wrote:
> The difference with open source is that if it's really holding you back
> you can rally the resources to get it done yourself right now, something
> that would be impossible with any proprietary code base.

In my humble opinion, after 12 years it has to be easier
to convince WC3 to change the SVG standard and adopt
Inkscape bottomleft page origin... :D

Al

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 7:44 PM, Alejandro Tejada 
wrote:
>
> Hi Ryan,
>
> I use Xara since many, many years ago. Their technical support is
excellent and rarely (if ever) I had a problem with their application
> except a rare bug that I found, reported and they fixed.
>
> Recently, I am testing their online design application:
> https://cloud.ixara.com/
>
> Everyone could test this online design application using their Google,
Facebook or Microsoft Live accounts.
>
> Al
>
> Rick Harrison wrote:
>
> > Did you try GIMP?
> > https://www.gimp.org
> > Will it do what you want it to do with SVG files?
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Re: [OT] Alternative to Inkscape

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Bob Sneidar wrote:

> Sadly, I have experienced this before with Open Source software. Devs
> can be much less open to new ideas or ways of doing things. As a
> result they lose a lot of their base, but if it costs them nothing
> they can afford it.

I suppose that could be said about many projects, even proprietary ones. 
 How often have you submitted a feature request to Adobe or Apple and 
seen it acted on in the next release?


I've met the lead dev for Inkscape at the SoCal Linux User Group.  He 
takes out a booth there because he very much wants feedback.


The key to this particular issue lies in the details of the two reports 
Alejandro linked to:


> https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/170049
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/364036

In summary, Inkscape predates its SVG import (by many years), and as 
code bases go the original print-centric coordinate system (remember, 
Postscript uses the same coordinate system Inkscape does) included a lot 
of assumptions based around that coordinate system, and a few hard-coded 
values.  All in all, changing it is non-trivial.


Also, there was some discussion in that thread about whether this is a 
true bug or a feature request, because the software is working as 
originally designed and simply flipping the coordinates would pose a 
backward compatibility issue.


The best option would be user-definable coordinate systems, and that 
would be a feature request.  And quite a bit of work.


As one of the devs in that thread wrote:

   If you think it's so easy to fix, know that we are more than happy
   to accept a patch from you. ;)

While it is a long-standing issue, we've all seen issues in other 
software, both FOSS and proprietary, hang out longer.  These are often 
things that may be important but perhaps to a relatively small 
percentage of the software's audience.  I've used Inkscape for years but 
never noticed this one until I read this thread.


The difference with open source is that if it's really holding you back 
you can rally the resources to get it done yourself right now, something 
that would be impossible with any proprietary code base.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: [OT] Alternative to Inkscape

[Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode]

After reading again Bug Reports about Inkscape page origin, I noticed that
I was wrong.

That Bug Report have existed for more than 12 years so... read by yourself:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/170049
https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/364036

Al


On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Alejandro Tejada 
wrote:

> Include SVG-Edit and current versions of these editors:
> https://www.sitepoint.com/6-free-web-based-svg-editors-compared/
>
> I just keep wondering why nobody have forked Inkscape
> and included the most requested feature: a plain simple
> palette that translate page coordinates from bottomleft
> to the topleft of the page.
>
> For more than 10 years, designers have been asking
> Inkscape developers that they should move the page
> origin from bottomleft to topleft (as svg specification
> requires). In fact, someone posted a palette that
> translate the page origin coordinates from bottomleft
> to topleft (without changing or breaking any other
> internal code) but this was quickly shutdown by
> project maintainers.
>
> Probably this explains the glacial adoption pace
> of Inkscape among designers and why SVG 2.0
> specification have been stalled for years and face
> the risk of not being approved with all features
> requested (many of them already in use)
>
> http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/is-svg-2-really-on-life-support
>
> Here is the main reason:
> "there is not enough svg content using those svg features"
>
> While Macromedia and Adobe support pushed Flash content
> presence to an incredible 29% (currently 6% among websites)
>
> https://www.fastcompany.com/3049920/the-agonizingly-slow-
> decline-of-adobe-flash-player
>
> https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/cp-flash/all/all
>
> SVG is only now that is reaching 4.5%
> https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/im-svg/all/all
>
> That is what I call "The Reluctant Acceptance of SVG"
>
> Maybe in the near future,
> 1) Inkscape developers could fulfill with more frequency
> the most common and reasonable requests of their
> own users.
> 2) SVG new features are used more frequently and
> enough content is posted online using those features.
> 3) Better designed tools appear than allows to use these
> new features without having to use so many workarounds
> and acrobatics...
>  (for example: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/14684846/flattening-
> svg-matrix-transforms-in-inkscape )
>
> Al
>
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Re: [OT] Alternative to Inkscape

[Rick Harrison via use-livecode]

Hi Al,

Did you try GIMP?

https://www.gimp.org

Will it do what you want it to do with SVG files?

Hope it helps!

Rick



> On Oct 4, 2017, at 4:30 PM, Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Include SVG-Edit and current versions of these editors:
> https://www.sitepoint.com/6-free-web-based-svg-editors-compared/
> 
> I just keep wondering why nobody have forked Inkscape
> and included the most requested feature: a plain simple
> palette that translate page coordinates from bottomleft
> to the topleft of the page.
> 
> For more than 10 years, designers have been asking
> Inkscape developers that they should move the page
> origin from bottomleft to topleft (as svg specification
> requires). In fact, someone posted a palette that
> translate the page origin coordinates from bottomleft
> to topleft (without changing or breaking any other
> internal code) but this was quickly shutdown by
> project maintainers.
> 
> Probably this explains the glacial adoption pace
> of Inkscape among designers and why SVG 2.0
> specification have been stalled for years and face
> the risk of not being approved with all features
> requested (many of them already in use)
> 
> http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/is-svg-2-really-on-life-support
> 
> Here is the main reason:
> "there is not enough svg content using those svg features"
> 
> While Macromedia and Adobe support pushed Flash content
> presence to an incredible 29% (currently 6% among websites)
> 
> https://www.fastcompany.com/3049920/the-agonizingly-slow-decline-of-adobe-flash-player
> 
> https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/cp-flash/all/all
> 
> SVG is only now that is reaching 4.5%
> https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/im-svg/all/all
> 
> That is what I call "The Reluctant Acceptance of SVG"
> 
> Maybe in the near future,
> 1) Inkscape developers could fulfill with more frequency
> the most common and reasonable requests of their
> own users.
> 2) SVG new features are used more frequently and
> enough content is posted online using those features.
> 3) Better designed tools appear than allows to use these
> new features without having to use so many workarounds
> and acrobatics...
> (for example:
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/14684846/flattening-svg-matrix-transforms-in-inkscape
> )
> 
> Al
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Re: [OT] Alternative to Inkscape

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Sadly, I have experienced this before with Open Source software. Devs can be 
much less open to new ideas or ways of doing things. As a result they lose a 
lot of their base, but if it costs them nothing they can afford it. 

Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2017, at 13:30 , Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> For more than 10 years, designers have been asking
> Inkscape developers that they should move the page
> origin from bottomleft to topleft (as svg specification
> requires). In fact, someone posted a palette that
> translate the page origin coordinates from bottomleft
> to topleft (without changing or breaking any other
> internal code) but this was quickly shutdown by
> project maintainers.


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Re: [OT] Alternative to Inkscape

[Tom Glod via use-livecode]

thanks for this, been looking for a replacement to fireworks which would
let me switch to linux full time.

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 11:22 AM, AndyP via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Also for svg  
> http://post.spmailt.com/f/a/d9JnaHsX5EfQCxw1vIDDCA~~/AAGp3AA~/RgRbtjQrP0EIACzmqdMzZhVXA3NwY1gEAFkGc2hhcmVkYQdoZWxsb18xYA01Mi4zOS4xODIuMjQ4QgoAAKsA1VmBOu5-Uh11c2UtbGl2ZWNvZGVAbGlzdHMucnVucmV2LmNvbQlRBABEEmh0dHBzOi8vZ3Jhdml0LmlvL0cCe30~
>  
> 
>
>
>
> -
> Andy Piddock
>
>
> My software never has bugs. It just develops random features.
>
> TinyIDE a Free alternative minimalist IDE Plugin for LiveCode
> TinyIDE
>
>
> Script editor Themer for LC 
> http://post.spmailt.com/f/a/wNARwk2bAZzpNOgT8MpSyg~~/AAGp3AA~/RgRbtjQrP0EIACzmqdMzZhVXA3NwY1gEAFkGc2hhcmVkYQdoZWxsb18xYA01Mi4zOS4xODIuMjQ4QgoAAKsA1VmBOu5-Uh11c2UtbGl2ZWNvZGVAbGlzdHMucnVucmV2LmNvbQlRBABEEWh0dHA6Ly8yMTA4LmNvLnVrRwJ7fQ~~
>
> PointandSee is a FREE simple but full featured under cursor colour picker
> / finder.
> http://post.spmailt.com/f/a/-subbybhnZAizMFbdcULLw~~/AAGp3AA~/RgRbtjQrP0EIACzmqdMzZhVXA3NwY1gEAFkGc2hhcmVkYQdoZWxsb18xYA01Mi4zOS4xODIuMjQ4QgoAAKsA1VmBOu5-Uh11c2UtbGl2ZWNvZGVAbGlzdHMucnVucmV2LmNvbQlRBABEHGh0dHA6Ly93d3cucG9pbnRhbmRzZWUuY28udWtHAnt9
>   - made with LiveCode
> --
> Sent from: 
> http://post.spmailt.com/f/a/W0LAnUPprXwqKkrMV8aBuw~~/AAGp3AA~/RgRbtjQrP0EIACzmqdMzZhVXA3NwY1gEAFkGc2hhcmVkYQdoZWxsb18xYA01Mi4zOS4xODIuMjQ4QgoAAKsA1VmBOu5-Uh11c2UtbGl2ZWNvZGVAbGlzdHMucnVucmV2LmNvbQlRBABEL2h0dHA6Ly9ydW50aW1lLXJldm9sdXRpb24uMjc4MzA1Lm40Lm5hYmJsZS5jb20vRwJ7fQ~~
> Revolution-User-f278306.html
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [OT] Alternative to Inkscape

[AndyP via use-livecode]

Also for svg  https://gravit.io/   



-
Andy Piddock 


My software never has bugs. It just develops random features. 

TinyIDE a Free alternative minimalist IDE Plugin for LiveCode
TinyIDE 


Script editor Themer for LC http://2108.co.uk  

PointandSee is a FREE simple but full featured under cursor colour picker / 
finder.
http://www.pointandsee.co.uk  - made with LiveCode
--
Sent from: 
http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Revolution-User-f278306.html

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