Re: clipsToRect property (was Re: Instantiaing Grouped Controls - Templates - Responsive)

[Devin Asay via use-livecode]

On Jun 14, 2017, at 9:21 AM, Devin Asay via use-livecode 
> wrote:

As one who teaches newbies LiveCode, I am a proponent of property labels that 
are both succinct and descriptive, while not straying too far from the actual 
property name. There are obvious exceptions (destroyStack, anyone?). But in 
this case, maybe something like:

Clip child controls to rect

Strikes a good balance between similarity to the property name and giving a 
better idea of what the property does.

I went with Clip child controls to rect.

Join the discussion on the Pull Request on Github if you think it needs 
massaging.

https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/pull/1632

Devin


Devin Asay
Director
Office of Digital Humanities
Brigham Young University

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Re: clipsToRect property (was Re: Instantiaing Grouped Controls - Templates - Responsive)

[Devin Asay via use-livecode]

Great discussion!

> On Jun 14, 2017, at 1:20 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 2017-06-14 02:18, Monte Goulding via use-livecode wrote:
>> I think this is one of those cases where the default behaviour was a
>> bad idea. Or perhaps was implemented before groups were used for much
>> other than backgrounds. Other objects we need to set to the formatted
>> width/height so why are groups special cased. Anyway, I would keep it
>> simple and use `Clips to rect` so at least it’s easy to relate to the
>> dictionary entry/property name.
> 
> Notionally 'backgrounds' don't really need an extent - they should be card 
> sized - the difference being that controls are shared amongst several cards.
> 
> Of course MetaCard generalized 'the background' to multiple backgrounds and 
> then groups (which aren't backgrounds) - however, as this was done 
> 'evolutionary', we've ended up with several properties for controlling them 
> which interact not-all-that-well.
> 
> If you step back and look at the types of 'group' thing which actually get 
> used, then there are probably only three main ones:
> 
>   1) Card sized layers which are not shared amongst cards (foreground groups, 
> if you like)
> 
>   2) Card sized layers which are shared amongst cards (background groups, if 
> you like)
> 
>   3) Groups with an explicit rect which are not shared amongst cards (control 
> groups, if you like)
> 
> (Variants of these where the content rect is distinct from the visible rect 
> are also plausible - i.e. scrolling views).
> 
> Currently (1) and (2) are catered for because groups (by default) resize to 
> the size of their controls; 'clipsToRect' caters for (3).
> 
> I'd perhaps suggest that 'Clips to rect' or similar is a suitable name for 
> the property. Why? Because that is precisely what it does - all children are 
> clipped to the rect of the group, rather than the group's rect being resized 
> to accomodate them so they are not clipped.
> 


As one who teaches newbies LiveCode, I am a proponent of property labels that 
are both succinct and descriptive, while not straying too far from the actual 
property name. There are obvious exceptions (destroyStack, anyone?). But in 
this case, maybe something like:

Clip child controls to rect

Strikes a good balance between similarity to the property name and giving a 
better idea of what the property does.

Devin


Devin Asay
Director
Office of Digital Humanities
Brigham Young University

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Re: clipsToRect property (was Re: Instantiaing Grouped Controls - Templates - Responsive)

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-06-14 02:18, Monte Goulding via use-livecode wrote:

I think this is one of those cases where the default behaviour was a
bad idea. Or perhaps was implemented before groups were used for much
other than backgrounds. Other objects we need to set to the formatted
width/height so why are groups special cased. Anyway, I would keep it
simple and use `Clips to rect` so at least it’s easy to relate to the
dictionary entry/property name.


Notionally 'backgrounds' don't really need an extent - they should be 
card sized - the difference being that controls are shared amongst 
several cards.


Of course MetaCard generalized 'the background' to multiple backgrounds 
and then groups (which aren't backgrounds) - however, as this was done 
'evolutionary', we've ended up with several properties for controlling 
them which interact not-all-that-well.


If you step back and look at the types of 'group' thing which actually 
get used, then there are probably only three main ones:


   1) Card sized layers which are not shared amongst cards (foreground 
groups, if you like)


   2) Card sized layers which are shared amongst cards (background 
groups, if you like)


   3) Groups with an explicit rect which are not shared amongst cards 
(control groups, if you like)


(Variants of these where the content rect is distinct from the visible 
rect are also plausible - i.e. scrolling views).


Currently (1) and (2) are catered for because groups (by default) resize 
to the size of their controls; 'clipsToRect' caters for (3).


I'd perhaps suggest that 'Clips to rect' or similar is a suitable name 
for the property. Why? Because that is precisely what it does - all 
children are clipped to the rect of the group, rather than the group's 
rect being resized to accomodate them so they are not clipped.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
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LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: clipsToRect property (was Re: Instantiaing Grouped Controls - Templates - Responsive)

[Monte Goulding via use-livecode]

> On 14 Jun 2017, at 3:21 pm, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I wonder why we have both lockUpdates and boundingRect. They seem very 
> similar.

Lock updates is intended to avoid recalculation of group properties when child 
object properties are changed. The general idea is:

set the lockUpdates of group X to true
repeat
   — lots of stuff modifying group content here
end repeat
set the lockUpdates of group X to false

It is not saved with the stack as it’s intended to be transient.

So if that’s not clear from the docs we probably have a docs bug. 

I usually avoid boundingRect because you need to remember to update it if you 
change the group rect. clipsToRect is basically the same as:

on resizeControl
  set the boundingRect of me to the rect of me
end resizeControl

Cheers

Monte
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Re: clipsToRect property (was Re: Instantiaing Grouped Controls - Templates - Responsive)

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

I wonder why we have both lockUpdates and boundingRect. They seem very 
similar.


On 6/13/17 7:54 PM, Scott Rossi via use-livecode wrote:

Keep in mind, there’s also the lockUpdates property of groups, which while 
differing mechanically “under the hood”, essentially causes the same perceived 
result — while enabled, a group’s rect is not changed when its child objects 
are resized/repositioned.

I don’t know how all these are verbosely named since I also use the default 
property names.

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, UX/UI Design




On Jun 13, 2017, at 3:37 PM, Devin Asay via use-livecode 
 wrote:



On Jun 13, 2017, at 4:19 PM, Devin Asay via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Yes, in essence. If you have a group and set the clipsToRect property to true 
(there’s no way to set it in the PI yet—that’s what I’m going to add), you can 
then change the rect of the group, and the group will *not* automatically reset 
its rect to the size of the child controls + margin. It is persistent, even if 
you leave the card or close the stack. Yet the group’s position and size 
remains unlocked so you can quickly select and change the group’s rect if you 
want. A nice feature when you need it.

ClipsToRect is the property name. So what “plain language” label do you think 
would be best for the PI?


How about “Prevent auto-resize of rect”?



Devin



On Jun 13, 2017, at 4:11 PM, Phil Davis via use-livecode 
> wrote:

So it's about manually updating the rect vs. having it in an auto-update mode?

Phil Davis


On 6/13/17 3:01 PM, Devin Asay via use-livecode wrote:
So far I’m kind of partial to Scott R’s “Persistent rect”. Conversely, it could 
be something like “Auto-update rect”, but then the checkbox would be opposite 
the property setting. That’s almost as bad as something like dontUpdateRect. 
(Sorry, Scott, plug your ears.)

Devin


On Jun 13, 2017, at 3:34 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>
 wrote:

On 6/13/17 4:17 PM, Jim Lambert via use-livecode wrote:
or
‘Clip Group to rect’

There are a few others like that, where the explanation is just the original 
term (or close) with spaces added. I always felt that didn't explain much. But 
the suggestion does have company in the PI.


Devin Asay
Director
Office of Digital Humanities
Brigham Young University




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HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: clipsToRect property (was Re: Instantiaing Grouped Controls - Templates - Responsive)

[Scott Rossi via use-livecode]

Keep in mind, there’s also the lockUpdates property of groups, which while 
differing mechanically “under the hood”, essentially causes the same perceived 
result — while enabled, a group’s rect is not changed when its child objects 
are resized/repositioned.

I don’t know how all these are verbosely named since I also use the default 
property names.

Regards,

Scott Rossi 
Creative Director 
Tactile Media, UX/UI Design 



> On Jun 13, 2017, at 3:37 PM, Devin Asay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Jun 13, 2017, at 4:19 PM, Devin Asay via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Yes, in essence. If you have a group and set the clipsToRect property to 
>> true (there’s no way to set it in the PI yet—that’s what I’m going to add), 
>> you can then change the rect of the group, and the group will *not* 
>> automatically reset its rect to the size of the child controls + margin. It 
>> is persistent, even if you leave the card or close the stack. Yet the 
>> group’s position and size remains unlocked so you can quickly select and 
>> change the group’s rect if you want. A nice feature when you need it.
>> 
>> ClipsToRect is the property name. So what “plain language” label do you 
>> think would be best for the PI?
> 
> How about “Prevent auto-resize of rect”?
> 
>> 
>> Devin
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jun 13, 2017, at 4:11 PM, Phil Davis via use-livecode 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> So it's about manually updating the rect vs. having it in an auto-update 
>> mode?
>> 
>> Phil Davis
>> 
>> 
>> On 6/13/17 3:01 PM, Devin Asay via use-livecode wrote:
>> So far I’m kind of partial to Scott R’s “Persistent rect”. Conversely, it 
>> could be something like “Auto-update rect”, but then the checkbox would be 
>> opposite the property setting. That’s almost as bad as something like 
>> dontUpdateRect. (Sorry, Scott, plug your ears.)
>> 
>> Devin
>> 
>> 
>> On Jun 13, 2017, at 3:34 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>> >
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> On 6/13/17 4:17 PM, Jim Lambert via use-livecode wrote:
>> or
>> ‘Clip Group to rect’
>> 
>> There are a few others like that, where the explanation is just the original 
>> term (or close) with spaces added. I always felt that didn't explain much. 
>> But the suggestion does have company in the PI.
> 
> Devin Asay
> Director
> Office of Digital Humanities
> Brigham Young University
> 


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Re: clipsToRect property (was Re: Instantiaing Grouped Controls - Templates - Responsive)

[Monte Goulding via use-livecode]

> On 14 Jun 2017, at 8:19 am, Devin Asay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Yes, in essence. If you have a group and set the clipsToRect property to true 
> (there’s no way to set it in the PI yet—that’s what I’m going to add), you 
> can then change the rect of the group, and the group will *not* automatically 
> reset its rect to the size of the child controls + margin. It is persistent, 
> even if you leave the card or close the stack. Yet the group’s position and 
> size remains unlocked so you can quickly select and change the group’s rect 
> if you want. A nice feature when you need it.
> 
> ClipsToRect is the property name. So what “plain language” label do you think 
> would be best for the PI?

I think this is one of those cases where the default behaviour was a bad idea. 
Or perhaps was implemented before groups were used for much other than 
backgrounds. Other objects we need to set to the formatted width/height so why 
are groups special cased. Anyway, I would keep it simple and use `Clips to 
rect` so at least it’s easy to relate to the dictionary entry/property name.

What would really be good and resolve this to a significant extent is if the 
tooltip were multi-line with the property summary included.

http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=19858 


Cheers

Monte
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Re: clipsToRect property (was Re: Instantiaing Grouped Controls - Templates - Responsive)

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 06/13/2017 03:19 PM, Devin Asay via use-livecode wrote:


ClipsToRect is the property name. So what “plain language” label do you think 
would be best for the PI?


I always have my preference set to display the LC property rather than 
the 'description', so I don't really care, but...


how about 'resize in place'

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com


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Re: clipsToRect property (was Re: Instantiaing Grouped Controls - Templates - Responsive)

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

AnchorRect?

Bob S



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Re: clipsToRect property (was Re: Instantiaing Grouped Controls - Templates - Responsive)

[Devin Asay via use-livecode]

> On Jun 13, 2017, at 4:19 PM, Devin Asay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Yes, in essence. If you have a group and set the clipsToRect property to true 
> (there’s no way to set it in the PI yet—that’s what I’m going to add), you 
> can then change the rect of the group, and the group will *not* automatically 
> reset its rect to the size of the child controls + margin. It is persistent, 
> even if you leave the card or close the stack. Yet the group’s position and 
> size remains unlocked so you can quickly select and change the group’s rect 
> if you want. A nice feature when you need it.
> 
> ClipsToRect is the property name. So what “plain language” label do you think 
> would be best for the PI?

How about “Prevent auto-resize of rect”?

> 
> Devin
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 13, 2017, at 4:11 PM, Phil Davis via use-livecode 
> > wrote:
> 
> So it's about manually updating the rect vs. having it in an auto-update mode?
> 
> Phil Davis
> 
> 
> On 6/13/17 3:01 PM, Devin Asay via use-livecode wrote:
> So far I’m kind of partial to Scott R’s “Persistent rect”. Conversely, it 
> could be something like “Auto-update rect”, but then the checkbox would be 
> opposite the property setting. That’s almost as bad as something like 
> dontUpdateRect. (Sorry, Scott, plug your ears.)
> 
> Devin
> 
> 
> On Jun 13, 2017, at 3:34 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
> >
>  wrote:
> 
> On 6/13/17 4:17 PM, Jim Lambert via use-livecode wrote:
> or
> ‘Clip Group to rect’
> 
> There are a few others like that, where the explanation is just the original 
> term (or close) with spaces added. I always felt that didn't explain much. 
> But the suggestion does have company in the PI.

Devin Asay
Director
Office of Digital Humanities
Brigham Young University

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Re: clipsToRect property (was Re: Instantiaing Grouped Controls - Templates - Responsive)

[Devin Asay via use-livecode]

Yes, in essence. If you have a group and set the clipsToRect property to true 
(there’s no way to set it in the PI yet—that’s what I’m going to add), you can 
then change the rect of the group, and the group will *not* automatically reset 
its rect to the size of the child controls + margin. It is persistent, even if 
you leave the card or close the stack. Yet the group’s position and size 
remains unlocked so you can quickly select and change the group’s rect if you 
want. A nice feature when you need it.

ClipsToRect is the property name. So what “plain language” label do you think 
would be best for the PI?

Devin



On Jun 13, 2017, at 4:11 PM, Phil Davis via use-livecode 
> wrote:

So it's about manually updating the rect vs. having it in an auto-update mode?

Phil Davis


On 6/13/17 3:01 PM, Devin Asay via use-livecode wrote:
So far I’m kind of partial to Scott R’s “Persistent rect”. Conversely, it could 
be something like “Auto-update rect”, but then the checkbox would be opposite 
the property setting. That’s almost as bad as something like dontUpdateRect. 
(Sorry, Scott, plug your ears.)

Devin


On Jun 13, 2017, at 3:34 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>
 wrote:

On 6/13/17 4:17 PM, Jim Lambert via use-livecode wrote:
or
‘Clip Group to rect’

There are a few others like that, where the explanation is just the original 
term (or close) with spaces added. I always felt that didn't explain much. But 
the suggestion does have company in the PI.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | 
jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Devin Asay
Director
Office of Digital Humanities
Brigham Young University

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--
Phil Davis


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Devin Asay
Director
Office of Digital Humanities
Brigham Young University

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Re: clipsToRect property (was Re: Instantiaing Grouped Controls - Templates - Responsive)

[Phil Davis via use-livecode]

(The ? was meant to soften my suggestion, not to indicate that I'm not 
following - that's that's always a possibility)


Phil


On 6/13/17 3:11 PM, Phil Davis wrote:
So it's about manually updating the rect vs. having it in an 
auto-update mode?


Phil Davis


On 6/13/17 3:01 PM, Devin Asay via use-livecode wrote:
So far I’m kind of partial to Scott R’s “Persistent rect”. 
Conversely, it could be something like “Auto-update rect”, but then 
the checkbox would be opposite the property setting. That’s almost as 
bad as something like dontUpdateRect. (Sorry, Scott, plug your ears.)


Devin


On Jun 13, 2017, at 3:34 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
> 
wrote:


On 6/13/17 4:17 PM, Jim Lambert via use-livecode wrote:
or
‘Clip Group to rect’

There are a few others like that, where the explanation is just the 
original term (or close) with spaces added. I always felt that didn't 
explain much. But the suggestion does have company in the PI.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | 
jac...@hyperactivesw.com

HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Devin Asay
Director
Office of Digital Humanities
Brigham Young University

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--
Phil Davis


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Re: clipsToRect property (was Re: Instantiaing Grouped Controls - Templates - Responsive)

[Phil Davis via use-livecode]

So it's about manually updating the rect vs. having it in an auto-update 
mode?


Phil Davis


On 6/13/17 3:01 PM, Devin Asay via use-livecode wrote:

So far I’m kind of partial to Scott R’s “Persistent rect”. Conversely, it could 
be something like “Auto-update rect”, but then the checkbox would be opposite 
the property setting. That’s almost as bad as something like dontUpdateRect. 
(Sorry, Scott, plug your ears.)

Devin


On Jun 13, 2017, at 3:34 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
> wrote:

On 6/13/17 4:17 PM, Jim Lambert via use-livecode wrote:
or
‘Clip Group to rect’

There are a few others like that, where the explanation is just the original 
term (or close) with spaces added. I always felt that didn't explain much. But 
the suggestion does have company in the PI.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | 
jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Devin Asay
Director
Office of Digital Humanities
Brigham Young University

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Phil Davis


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Re: clipsToRect property (was Re: Instantiaing Grouped Controls - Templates - Responsive)

[Devin Asay via use-livecode]

So far I’m kind of partial to Scott R’s “Persistent rect”. Conversely, it could 
be something like “Auto-update rect”, but then the checkbox would be opposite 
the property setting. That’s almost as bad as something like dontUpdateRect. 
(Sorry, Scott, plug your ears.)

Devin


On Jun 13, 2017, at 3:34 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
> wrote:

On 6/13/17 4:17 PM, Jim Lambert via use-livecode wrote:
or
‘Clip Group to rect’

There are a few others like that, where the explanation is just the original 
term (or close) with spaces added. I always felt that didn't explain much. But 
the suggestion does have company in the PI.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | 
jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Devin Asay
Director
Office of Digital Humanities
Brigham Young University

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Re: clipsToRect property (was Re: Instantiaing Grouped Controls - Templates - Responsive)

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 6/13/17 4:17 PM, Jim Lambert via use-livecode wrote:

or

‘Clip Group to rect’


There are a few others like that, where the explanation is just the 
original term (or close) with spaces added. I always felt that didn't 
explain much. But the suggestion does have company in the PI.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: clipsToRect property (was Re: Instantiaing Grouped Controls - Templates - Responsive)

[Jim Lambert via use-livecode]

or

‘Clip Group to rect’

Jim Lambert
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Re: clipsToRect property (was Re: Instantiaing Grouped Controls - Templates - Responsive)

[Jim Lambert via use-livecode]

Group crops to rect

> Jacque wrote:
> I agree with the concept in general, but the word "crop" implies permanent 
> removal. When you crop an image, it permanently erases the parts outside the 
> rectangle. Unfortunately I can't think of a better term. Maybe something like 
> "prevent auto-resizing”?

How about ‘Group clips to rect’ ?

Jim Lambert




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Re: clipsToRect property (was Re: Instantiaing Grouped Controls - Templates - Responsive)

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode]

Tks Devin for moving this over here.

@ Jacque: OK rignt-- agreed "crop" is wrong.. because, yes, it implies 
"irrevocably chopping off image data"  

But "lock" also has the problem of assuming the loc is locked, which it is not.

How about a word that really is what it does

Constrain rect

Logic: as Mark said "instead of the union of child objects"

Seems like "an act of constraint" to me

and that word is in fact used in discussion about CSS overflow management, 
which to my mind,  is exactly what is happening here.. effectively setting 
"overflow" to "hidden," leaving the rect alone

BR



 

On 6/13/17, 8:32 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Devin Asay via use-livecode" 
 wrote:

Good suggestions, Scott and BR. 

My list now:

- Persistent rect
- Crop to rect
- Lock rect  (analogous to lockLoc’s “Lock size and position”)

Anyone else want to chime in?


Yes, I admit I threw up a little bit in my mouth when I typed “Don’t…”, but 
in my defense it was pretty far down the list.


Devin



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