Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-12 Thread J. Landman Gay via use-livecode

I can't take credit, I first saw Ken Ray do it.

On 7/12/17 3:05 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

Brilliant as usual.

Bob S



On Jul 12, 2017, at 11:40 , J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
 wrote:


And since we are look at usability of the script editor and add ons I would LOVE to have 
the ability to show "sections" in my scripts
I think it was years ago, or maybe even nowin GLX? anyway, Jerry Daniels had 
that, where some kind of convention at the beginning of a comment, would cause 
it to appear on the left panel list.


I regularly do something like this:

on _UTILITIES_
end _UTILITIES_

It shows up in the handler list as a label with a pseudo-divider line.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



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Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-12 Thread J. Landman Gay via use-livecode

I can't take credit, I first saw Ken Ray do it.

On 7/12/17 3:05 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

Brilliant as usual.

Bob S



On Jul 12, 2017, at 11:40 , J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
 wrote:


And since we are look at usability of the script editor and add ons I would LOVE to have 
the ability to show "sections" in my scripts
I think it was years ago, or maybe even nowin GLX? anyway, Jerry Daniels had 
that, where some kind of convention at the beginning of a comment, would cause 
it to appear on the left panel list.


I regularly do something like this:

on _UTILITIES_
end _UTILITIES_

It shows up in the handler list as a label with a pseudo-divider line.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



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Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-12 Thread J. Landman Gay via use-livecode

On 7/12/17 2:36 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
* In UX circles they bandy about "80% of users never change preference 
settings" so often it's usually taken for granted, but this morning as I 
noted that above I wondered about the actual research behind it.


Of course that rubric applies only to consumer apps.  There are many 
reasons why guidelines established from consumer research don't apply to 
developer tools, given the very narrow and highly specific demographic 
developers represent.


We're developers. The script editor puts up its own menu bar where 
several options can be changed on the fly. Variable checking and 
commenting are handled in the Edit menu, and I'd put a "Show default 
scripts" toggle there. It seems intuitive and consistent to me. The 
Debug menu is another option, but not as closely related.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-12 Thread hh via use-livecode
> RG wrote:
> I would caution against adding more stuff to the Prefs window, for 
> reasons too lengthy to indulge in here.

The new stuff could replace "Compatibility" (and "Updates" could be replaced 
with one link to downloads.livecode.com).


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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-12 Thread Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Brilliant as usual. 

Bob S


> On Jul 12, 2017, at 11:40 , J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>> And since we are look at usability of the script editor and add ons I would 
>> LOVE to have the ability to show "sections" in my scripts
>> I think it was years ago, or maybe even nowin GLX? anyway, Jerry Daniels had 
>> that, where some kind of convention at the beginning of a comment, would 
>> cause it to appear on the left panel list.
> 
> I regularly do something like this:
> 
> on _UTILITIES_
> end _UTILITIES_
> 
> It shows up in the handler list as a label with a pseudo-divider line.
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-12 Thread Terry Judd via use-livecode
On 13/07/2017 2:56 am, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin via 
use-livecode"  wrote:


I would caution against adding more stuff to the Prefs window, for 
reasons too lengthy to indulge in here.


Perhaps having a button in the script editor that links to the script editor 
pane of the prefs window would be a useful enhancement then – if not for 
configuring the default handler list, then just generally?

Terry...


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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-12 Thread Richard Gaskin via use-livecode

Richmond Mathewson wrote:

> On 7/12/17 7:56 pm, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> 
> for reasons too lengthy to indulge in here.
> 
>
> Please could you indulge in them somewhere so we can understand your
> argument fully.

For future readers to better understand my reply here, it may be helpful 
to include the relevant portion of the message so they can know what's 
being described:


If the toggle is either in-window or in the SE's View menu that
would be great.

I would caution against adding more stuff to the Prefs window,
for reasons too lengthy to indulge in here.


TL;DR version:

Immediacy.


Rambling version:

Discoverability is part of this, and, once discovered, ease of access 
becomes another important part.


If you want to change something you're looking at, it's often better to 
provide the means to do so in the thing being looked at, rather than in 
one of several panes contained in some separate window which may be 
found by accessing an item tucked away at the bottom of a menu.


A user will be able to discover that something can be changed in 
relation to the conceptual distance between the thing being changed and 
the location of the control that makes the change.


Ideally (and admitting up front that we don't live in an ideal universe, 
so there is no one-size-fits-all rule for every design problem), this 
would translate to a hierarchy that favors, in order of discoverability:


1. The content region of the window (rare for View options, since that's
   usually where the user puts their own stuff, but definitely at the
   forefront of user consciousness).

2. A secondary pane within the window (such as the View options at the
   bottom of many popular apps like Apple's TextEdit).

3. A menu item accessible while the window they want to change is in
   front (most HIGs specify a View menu for exactly this purpose).

4. A separate window which can be opened from a menu item (typically
   "Preferences" on Mac and "Options" on Windows).

(Side note: Context menus are not even considered here since they never 
include options not also available through more evident means.)


This hierarchy of immediacy might tempt us to cram every option directly 
in the user's window, but of course throwing all options in front of the 
user often backfires with cognitive overload and visual clutter, so we 
want to think carefully about what goes where.


Whether an option is part of the local view, or a menu, or better 
handled through a separate Preferences window isn't always obvious with 
complete confidence, and like most things can involve a bit of guessing 
(though guessing can be mitigated with A/B user testing).


But there are some questions that can be helpful in making that choice:

- Might the user want to change the setting more than once?

  Things like the script editing field's background color is
  often set once and rarely if ever changed.  It's a good
  candidate for the Prefs window.

  Things like ordering handlers either alphabetically or
  sequentially may be changed several times per session,
  a good candidate for a View pane at the bottom of the
  window, or at very least a menu item with a memorable
  shortcut.

  I can envision wanting to toggle the visibility of
  suggested handlers frequently during a session.


- Are there any potential downsides to leaving the default?

  As handy as the new list is, it risks confusion at first.
  Certainly not cripplingly so, and easily learnable, but
  it must be learned.  When a single control contains content
  used two different purposes, it's not necessarily a red flag
  but may be a yellow flag, requiring the designer to proceed
  with caution.

  Providing some self-evident means of turning those off helps
  communicate to the user that, handy as they are, they are of
  secondary importance to the list of handlers actually in
  the script being viewed.

  It's helpful to keep in mind that a very large majority of
  users never change any prefs in any app at all*, so anything
  we tuck away from immediate view off into a Preferences
  window should be the subset of options whose defaults are
  completely without downside.


- Are there any potential downsides to providing control over
  the setting directly in the context it applies to?

  Clutter is always a risk.

  And with anything involving reading or writing text,
  vertical space is a VERY high priority, esp. given that the
  most common screen size by far (roughly twice as many as the
  second-leading size) is only 768px tall.

  So while we always want to be mindful of clutter, we want to be
  especially mindful of vertical screen space in any layout involving
  scrolling text.

  Adding a new View pane would a poor choice for this reason.  But
  the LC SE has plenty of rarely-used space in the bottom-most group
  already there, currently used for left-aligned notifications but
  the rest usually empty.

  Since the group already has space, there 

Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-12 Thread J. Landman Gay via use-livecode

On 7/12/17 9:26 AM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:

And since we are look at usability of the script editor and add ons I would LOVE to have 
the ability to show "sections" in my scripts

I think it was years ago, or maybe even nowin GLX? anyway, Jerry Daniels had 
that, where some kind of convention at the beginning of a comment, would cause 
it to appear on the left panel list.


I regularly do something like this:

on _UTILITIES_
end _UTILITIES_

It shows up in the handler list as a label with a pseudo-divider line.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-12 Thread Richard Gaskin via use-livecode

Kevin Miller wrote:

> We are working hard to attract new users to the platform. This has
> come up again and again in user testing. This evening we tested this
> new handler list on new users for the first time. It went over very
> well.

It does indeed seem very helpful, but even better to hear that the team 
is making time for user testing.


Perhaps a blog post about that would be a great read, not only to better 
appreciate the thinking behind changes but also to inspire your audience 
of developers to adopt similar methodologies.


So much of software success these days is based around UX far more than 
algorithms.  Encouraging good design practice helps your audience be 
more successful, and raises the visibility of the platform as a whole 
along the way.



Supporting these efforts to better serve new users, have you had a 
moment to consider this quickie?:


Bug 19511 - UX: Move "User Guide" higher in the Help menu


An investment of just a few minutes can help make learning resources 
much more readily discoverable.


If you have time for further refinement of other items in the Help menu 
I'm at your service, feel free to call anytime.


But if a first pass were limited to the very minor suggestions outlined 
there, I believe it would cut down on some of the forum posts stemming 
from people not knowing LC ships with a wonderfully comprehensive User 
Guide.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-12 Thread Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode



On 7/12/17 7:56 pm, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:



for reasons too lengthy to indulge in here.



Please could you indulge in them somewhere so we can understand your 
argument fully.


Richmond.

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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-12 Thread Richard Gaskin via use-livecode

Terry Judd wrote:
> I’ve just had a quick play with the enhanced script editor and these
> all seem like good suggestions to me, and in the script editor pane of
> the preferences window I’d allow the user to (i) hide/show the list of
> available common handlers and (ii) hide/show included comments on
> their functionality.

If the toggle is either in-window or in the SE's View menu that would be 
great.


I would caution against adding more stuff to the Prefs window, for 
reasons too lengthy to indulge in here.



I also like the suggestion to color the suggested handler names slightly 
gray to further distinguish them from those that actually exist.


Ideally the gray would be slightly darker than the one used to indicate 
disabled state, just gray enough to distinguish them.



And as long as we're improving the SE UX, can we please allow the 
background color preference setting to affect both panes in the SE, the 
editing field (as it does now) and also the handler list (not yet)?


Bug 11204 - Script Editor Enhancement: use same color for both editing 
field and handler list



Background and foreground colors are VERY important for long typing 
sessions, but the value of supporting them here is compromised by 
requiring that the handler list always remain stark white.


When we adjust colors we usually do so to reduce contrast to mitigate 
eye strain, but with the handler list color non-settable it quickly 
becomes the most visually-dominant element in the window, even though it 
has a very secondary role compared to the main editing field.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com




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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-12 Thread Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode

My feedback is here:

http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6=29487

including soundings from kids on my summer course.

Richmond.

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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-12 Thread panagiotis merakos via use-livecode
Hi all,

Thank you for the feedback. I am afraid that all those useful suggestions
will be buried in the use-list, so I have filed an enhancement request that
summarizes the most common suggestions about improving the default handlers
as discussed here.

http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=20066

Best,
Panos
--

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via
use-livecode  wrote:

> I had almost the same sense as Mark on this. Distracting at first, but no
> really in the
>
>
> And since we are look at usability of the script editor and add ons I
> would LOVE to have the ability to show "sections" in my scripts
>
> I think it was years ago, or maybe even nowin GLX? anyway, Jerry Daniels
> had that, where some kind of convention at the beginning of a comment,
> would cause it to appear on the left panel list.
>
> I often use things like this in my comments
>
> #  GRAPHIC EFFECTS ###
>
> It would really help me if we could see this in the left.   Exactly what
> to notation should be, probably needs thought.
>
> Another simpler convention would be wherever
>
> */  SHOW THE FIRST LINE OF THIS COMMENT
>
> Or if people use that to comment out whole blocks then we need a new
> convention.  like perhaps like this which I know some use:
>
> --> SCRIPT SECTION
>
> If we like this, and can agree on a convention,  I will file an official
> enhancement request.
>
> I suppose that preference could even be added to  the script editor which
> would allow something like
>
> Show Script Sections __ [check] beginning with __ [we enter the chars
> we want to use to show the first line of that comment]
>
> i.e.  user configurable (since opinions will be all over the place on what
> to use)
>
>
>
> BR
>
>
>
>
> On 7/11/17, 6:29 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Mark Wieder via
> use-livecode"  use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> After all the commotion here, I had to go take a look. So I loaded the
> new build, and after the initial shock I kind of like it. I think the
> changes I would make would be to have the text of the loadable handlers
> dimmed to gray, so that it's obvious that they're not in the script,
> and
> to start with a blank line, like the one that separates the real
> handlers from the wannabes.
>
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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-12 Thread Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode
I had almost the same sense as Mark on this. Distracting at first, but no 
really in the 


And since we are look at usability of the script editor and add ons I would 
LOVE to have the ability to show "sections" in my scripts

I think it was years ago, or maybe even nowin GLX? anyway, Jerry Daniels had 
that, where some kind of convention at the beginning of a comment, would cause 
it to appear on the left panel list.

I often use things like this in my comments

#  GRAPHIC EFFECTS ###

It would really help me if we could see this in the left.   Exactly what to 
notation should be, probably needs thought.

Another simpler convention would be wherever

*/  SHOW THE FIRST LINE OF THIS COMMENT

Or if people use that to comment out whole blocks then we need a new 
convention.  like perhaps like this which I know some use:

--> SCRIPT SECTION

If we like this, and can agree on a convention,  I will file an official 
enhancement request.

I suppose that preference could even be added to  the script editor which would 
allow something like

Show Script Sections __ [check] beginning with __ [we enter the chars we 
want to use to show the first line of that comment]

i.e.  user configurable (since opinions will be all over the place on what to 
use)



BR


 

On 7/11/17, 6:29 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Mark Wieder via use-livecode" 
 wrote:

After all the commotion here, I had to go take a look. So I loaded the 
new build, and after the initial shock I kind of like it. I think the 
changes I would make would be to have the text of the loadable handlers 
dimmed to gray, so that it's obvious that they're not in the script, and 
to start with a blank line, like the one that separates the real 
handlers from the wannabes.

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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-12 Thread Mike Kerner via use-livecode
Configurable would be great, because that would be the start of having
Macros, and having those macros be configurable, and having them be able to
do things like using the hilited text to build a structure

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 5:01 AM, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> This feature in general is a good idea.
>
> But
> - make it more visible that those handler are not current handler of the
> script, e.g. grey out that list
> - allow a bigger space between the script handler and the handler list
> - show this list by default, so new users see that list by default,  but
> allow the user to switch if of in prefs
> - if disabled in the prefs,  allow the user to show the list by pressing a
> short key
>
>  or
> - put this list somewhere else, but not below the script handler
>
> Matthias
>
> > Am 12.07.2017 um 00:07 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>:
> >
> > Is it something perhaps you could get used to?
> >
> > We are working hard to attract new users to the platform. This has come
> up
> > again and again in user testing. This evening we tested this new handler
> > list on new users for the first time. It went over very well.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> > Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> > LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/07/2017, 23:05, "use-livecode on behalf of Matthias Rebbe via
> > use-livecode"  > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Matthias Rebbe
> >> +49 5741 31
> >> ?matthiasrebbe.eu ?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> A new feature in the script editor has been added, this is the ability
> >>> to
> >>> choose from a list of default handlers to add to the object script.
> >>
> >> I am not sure if i like this new handler list. At least at that place. I
> >> find it somehow disturbing. I am not sure if this is the correct
> >> expression.
> >> Is there a way to hide that list in the editor? Or is there a way to
> make
> >> at least the height of that list smaller?
> >> ___
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On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-12 Thread Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode
This feature in general is a good idea. 

But
- make it more visible that those handler are not current handler of the 
script, e.g. grey out that list
- allow a bigger space between the script handler and the handler list
- show this list by default, so new users see that list by default,  but allow 
the user to switch if of in prefs
- if disabled in the prefs,  allow the user to show the list by pressing a 
short key

 or 
- put this list somewhere else, but not below the script handler

Matthias

> Am 12.07.2017 um 00:07 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> Is it something perhaps you could get used to?
> 
> We are working hard to attract new users to the platform. This has come up
> again and again in user testing. This evening we tested this new handler
> list on new users for the first time. It went over very well.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Kevin
> 
> Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/07/2017, 23:05, "use-livecode on behalf of Matthias Rebbe via
> use-livecode"  use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Matthias Rebbe
>> +49 5741 31
>> ?matthiasrebbe.eu ?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> A new feature in the script editor has been added, this is the ability
>>> to
>>> choose from a list of default handlers to add to the object script.
>> 
>> I am not sure if i like this new handler list. At least at that place. I
>> find it somehow disturbing. I am not sure if this is the correct
>> expression.
>> Is there a way to hide that list in the editor? Or is there a way to make
>> at least the height of that list smaller?
>> ___
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> 
> 
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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-12 Thread Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode

I'm going to show this version to "my" kids this afternoon . . .

Richmond.

On 7/12/17 1:12 am, Tore Nilsen via use-livecode wrote:

I have played a bit with the enhanced script editor and while I like the idea 
with the handler lists I am not sure that the implementation is as good as it 
could be.

I find it a bit confusing to see a list of handlers in the handler list without 
any actual handlers in the script itself. From my experiences teaching coding 
with LiveCode, I think that my students also will find this a bit confusing. I 
think the handlers should be moved to a menu or a scrolling list above the list 
that shows which handlers are currently used in the script. Then there will be 
a clear visual division between handlers created by the user and handlers that 
are available to the user. It is also important that this menu/list is labeled 
properly. In a script with a lot of handlers, the handler list will eventually 
be pushed out of sight the way it is implemented now.
If this list should be helpful to more inexperienced users, it is vital that 
the most common handlers for any given control appear at the top of the list. 
The more esoteric once can be placed at the bottom of the menu/list. It is also 
vital to think through which handlers are shown in the script of which control, 
especially since you can place almost any handler in the script of any control, 
as long as there is a call to that handler further up in the message hierarchy.
Better uniformity in how the handlers are presented when inserted into the 
script is needed. The mouseUp handler comes with comments explaining the 
handler, whereas the mouseDown handler does not. Also, params containing the 
same values should be called the same. In mouseUp the parameter is called 
mouseButtonNumer, in moouseDown it is called pMouseButton.

These are some of my initial thoughts about what I think can be a very useful 
enhancement to the editor.

Regards
Tore Nilsen





11. jul. 2017 kl. 16:54 skrev panagiotis merakos via use-livecode 
:

Dear list members,

We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 8.1.6 RC-1.

Getting the Release
===
You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ or via
the automatic updater.


Release Contents


LiveCode 8.1.6 RC-1 contains 32 bug fixes, new features, as well as
security and stability improvements:

- A couple of crashes have been fixed.
- New version of tsNet (1.2.10) that addresses various network-related bugs
is included.
- The flow in the interactive tutorials has been improved.

A new feature in the script editor has been added, this is the ability to
choose from a list of default handlers to add to the object script.

Objects no longer have default scripts that appear in the script editor
when their empty scripts are edited. Instead, all the associated message
handlers for the object type now appear in a list underneath the list of
handlers that are present in the script. When clicked, these lines add the
selected default handler to the end of the current script.

The full release notes are available from:
http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/8_1_6/LiveCodeNotes-8_1_6_rc_1.pdf


Feedback

Please report any bugs encountered on our BugZilla at
http://quality.livecode.com/


Have fun!
The LiveCode Team
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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-12 Thread Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode

"We are working hard to attract new users" . . .

Well that feature certainly should make things quite a bit easier!

Richmond.

On 7/12/17 1:07 am, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote:

Is it something perhaps you could get used to?

We are working hard to attract new users to the platform. This has come up
again and again in user testing. This evening we tested this new handler
list on new users for the first time. It went over very well.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps




On 11/07/2017, 23:05, "use-livecode on behalf of Matthias Rebbe via
use-livecode"  wrote:


Matthias Rebbe
+49 5741 31
?matthiasrebbe.eu ?


A new feature in the script editor has been added, this is the ability
to
choose from a list of default handlers to add to the object script.

I am not sure if i like this new handler list. At least at that place. I
find it somehow disturbing. I am not sure if this is the correct
expression.
Is there a way to hide that list in the editor? Or is there a way to make
at least the height of that list smaller?
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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-12 Thread Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode

That's not a bad idea: to turn on/off this feature in the preferences.

Richmond.

On 7/12/17 1:05 am, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote:

Matthias Rebbe
+49 5741 31
‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌


A new feature in the script editor has been added, this is the ability to
choose from a list of default handlers to add to the object script.

I am not sure if i like this new handler list. At least at that place. I find 
it somehow disturbing. I am not sure if this is the correct expression.
Is there a way to hide that list in the editor? Or is there a way to make at 
least the height of that list smaller?
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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-12 Thread Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode

I think that this new feature is really wonderful; especially as
new users of LiveCode won't have to wait (like I did) for 5 years
to find out about "MouseEnter" :)

Richmond.

On 7/12/17 12:52 am, panagiotis merakos via use-livecode wrote:

H Richmond,

Thanks for the feedback.

The default handlers appear exactly as they are in the dictionary. Indeed,
the mouseUp handler for example does take a parameter 
(see dictionary).

If you don't need to do different things in the mouseUp handler depending
on the , you can just ignore it (e.g. no need to delete
this param), and it will act just like a regular mouseUp handler with no
params.

Best,
Panos
--

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 8:41 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:


I am impressed with the new default handler list . . .

BUT . . . I wonder why, on choosing either mouseDown or mouseUp it prompts
me for a mouseButton number . . .

if this feature is meant to speed things up, it doesn't, as one normally
spends time choosing the default
handler and then deleting the mouseButton thing.

A great idea that needs a bit of sorting out.

Richmond.


On 7/11/17 5:54 pm, panagiotis merakos via use-livecode wrote:


Dear list members,

We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 8.1.6 RC-1.

Getting the Release
===
You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ or
via
the automatic updater.


Release Contents


LiveCode 8.1.6 RC-1 contains 32 bug fixes, new features, as well as
security and stability improvements:

- A couple of crashes have been fixed.
- New version of tsNet (1.2.10) that addresses various network-related
bugs
is included.
- The flow in the interactive tutorials has been improved.

A new feature in the script editor has been added, this is the ability to
choose from a list of default handlers to add to the object script.

Objects no longer have default scripts that appear in the script editor
when their empty scripts are edited. Instead, all the associated message
handlers for the object type now appear in a list underneath the list of
handlers that are present in the script. When clicked, these lines add the
selected default handler to the end of the current script.

The full release notes are available from:
http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/8_1_6/LiveCodeNotes-8_1_6_rc_1.pdf


Feedback

Please report any bugs encountered on our BugZilla at
http://quality.livecode.com/


Have fun!
The LiveCode Team
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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-11 Thread Paul Hibbert via use-livecode
Configurable sounds like a great idea to me too. I’d like to see a more defined 
break from the regular handlers if that’s possible.

Also there is a Typo - PasteKey in the Field script is missing the “P” - it 
just states asteKey, I wondered what that was! :)

Paul


> On Jul 11, 2017, at 8:01 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I'd vote for this, a configurable option would make everyone happy.
> 
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> 
> 
> On July 11, 2017 5:38:43 PM Alex Tweedly via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 11/07/2017 23:07, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Is it something perhaps you could get used to?
>>> 
>>> We are working hard to attract new users to the platform. This has come up
>>> again and again in user testing. This evening we tested this new handler
>>> list on new users for the first time. It went over very well.
>> So keep it.
>>   Make it on by default.
>>   Make it configurable so others can hide it if they want.
>> 
>> Alex.
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-11 Thread Mark Wieder via use-livecode

On 07/11/2017 03:07 PM, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote:

Is it something perhaps you could get used to?

We are working hard to attract new users to the platform. This has come up
again and again in user testing. This evening we tested this new handler
list on new users for the first time. It went over very well.


After all the commotion here, I had to go take a look. So I loaded the 
new build, and after the initial shock I kind of like it. I think the 
changes I would make would be to have the text of the loadable handlers 
dimmed to gray, so that it's obvious that they're not in the script, and 
to start with a blank line, like the one that separates the real 
handlers from the wannabes.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-11 Thread J. Landman Gay via use-livecode

I'd vote for this, a configurable option would make everyone happy.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



On July 11, 2017 5:38:43 PM Alex Tweedly via use-livecode 
 wrote:





On 11/07/2017 23:07, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote:

Is it something perhaps you could get used to?

We are working hard to attract new users to the platform. This has come up
again and again in user testing. This evening we tested this new handler
list on new users for the first time. It went over very well.

So keep it.
   Make it on by default.
   Make it configurable so others can hide it if they want.

Alex.


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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-11 Thread Terry Judd via use-livecode
I’ve just had a quick play with the enhanced script editor and these all seem 
like good suggestions to me, and in the script editor pane of the preferences 
window I’d allow the user to (i) hide/show the list of available common 
handlers and (ii) hide/show included comments on their functionality.

Terry...

On 12/07/2017 8:40 am, "use-livecode on behalf of Tore Nilsen via use-livecode" 
 wrote:

Just to make my points a bit clearer, here is a list of what enhancements 
to the handler list I think will be helpful:

1. Put the list in a menu/scrolling list field above the current list 
showing actual handlers in the script

2. Label this menu/list clearly as “Common handlers” to make sure that 
users understand that this list does not contain all available handlers for 
this control.

3. Put the most used/most likely used handlers for each control at the top 
of the list

4. Make sure that all inserted handlers are presented in the same way, a 
comment giving a brief description of the handler is a good thing for beginners

5. Make sure that all parameters are named in a uniform way. 

6. Group handlers in the list by their functionality

7. Make the list searchable/let the user filter the list

8. Do not repeat the list in the menu at the top of the script editor. This 
menu should only contain actual handlers inserted into the script because of 
the “play/run” button next to it. You can not run a handler that is not a part 
of the script.

I think that this list of available/common handlers can be very helpful if 
it is implemented in a good way. I like the fact that comments are provided 
with the handlers, This makes it a valuable feature for beginners. I can really 
see myself using these comments as an example for my students on how to write 
comments for their own handlers and functions. I would welcome any change in 
this feature that makes it clearer and less confusing, especially for beginners.

Regards
Tore Nilsen



> 
> 
> 
>> 11. jul. 2017 kl. 16:54 skrev panagiotis merakos via use-livecode 
:
>> 
>> Dear list members,
>> 
>> We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 8.1.6 RC-1.
>> 
>> Getting the Release
>> ===
>> You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ or 
via
>> the automatic updater.
>> 
>> 
>> Release Contents
>> 
>> 
>> LiveCode 8.1.6 RC-1 contains 32 bug fixes, new features, as well as
>> security and stability improvements:
>> 
>> - A couple of crashes have been fixed.
>> - New version of tsNet (1.2.10) that addresses various network-related 
bugs
>> is included.
>> - The flow in the interactive tutorials has been improved.
>> 
>> A new feature in the script editor has been added, this is the ability to
>> choose from a list of default handlers to add to the object script.
>> 
>> Objects no longer have default scripts that appear in the script editor
>> when their empty scripts are edited. Instead, all the associated message
>> handlers for the object type now appear in a list underneath the list of
>> handlers that are present in the script. When clicked, these lines add 
the
>> selected default handler to the end of the current script.
>> 
>> The full release notes are available from:
>> http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/8_1_6/LiveCodeNotes-8_1_6_rc_1.pdf
>> 
>> 
>> Feedback
>> 
>> Please report any bugs encountered on our BugZilla at
>> http://quality.livecode.com/
>> 
>> 
>> Have fun!
>> The LiveCode Team
>> --
>> ___
>> use-livecode mailing list
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>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-11 Thread hh via use-livecode
Very good:
The idea and also all the refinement proposals.
It would also be great if the prototypes were editable.

Bad:
Some of the prototypes use protected names like "filename" as parameters.
So they don't compile ...

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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-11 Thread Tore Nilsen via use-livecode
Just to make my points a bit clearer, here is a list of what enhancements to 
the handler list I think will be helpful:

1. Put the list in a menu/scrolling list field above the current list showing 
actual handlers in the script

2. Label this menu/list clearly as “Common handlers” to make sure that users 
understand that this list does not contain all available handlers for this 
control.

3. Put the most used/most likely used handlers for each control at the top of 
the list

4. Make sure that all inserted handlers are presented in the same way, a 
comment giving a brief description of the handler is a good thing for beginners

5. Make sure that all parameters are named in a uniform way. 

6. Group handlers in the list by their functionality

7. Make the list searchable/let the user filter the list

8. Do not repeat the list in the menu at the top of the script editor. This 
menu should only contain actual handlers inserted into the script because of 
the “play/run” button next to it. You can not run a handler that is not a part 
of the script.

I think that this list of available/common handlers can be very helpful if it 
is implemented in a good way. I like the fact that comments are provided with 
the handlers, This makes it a valuable feature for beginners. I can really see 
myself using these comments as an example for my students on how to write 
comments for their own handlers and functions. I would welcome any change in 
this feature that makes it clearer and less confusing, especially for beginners.

Regards
Tore Nilsen



> 
> 
> 
>> 11. jul. 2017 kl. 16:54 skrev panagiotis merakos via use-livecode 
>> :
>> 
>> Dear list members,
>> 
>> We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 8.1.6 RC-1.
>> 
>> Getting the Release
>> ===
>> You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ or via
>> the automatic updater.
>> 
>> 
>> Release Contents
>> 
>> 
>> LiveCode 8.1.6 RC-1 contains 32 bug fixes, new features, as well as
>> security and stability improvements:
>> 
>> - A couple of crashes have been fixed.
>> - New version of tsNet (1.2.10) that addresses various network-related bugs
>> is included.
>> - The flow in the interactive tutorials has been improved.
>> 
>> A new feature in the script editor has been added, this is the ability to
>> choose from a list of default handlers to add to the object script.
>> 
>> Objects no longer have default scripts that appear in the script editor
>> when their empty scripts are edited. Instead, all the associated message
>> handlers for the object type now appear in a list underneath the list of
>> handlers that are present in the script. When clicked, these lines add the
>> selected default handler to the end of the current script.
>> 
>> The full release notes are available from:
>> http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/8_1_6/LiveCodeNotes-8_1_6_rc_1.pdf
>> 
>> 
>> Feedback
>> 
>> Please report any bugs encountered on our BugZilla at
>> http://quality.livecode.com/
>> 
>> 
>> Have fun!
>> The LiveCode Team
>> --
>> ___
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
>> preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-11 Thread Alex Tweedly via use-livecode



On 11/07/2017 23:07, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote:

Is it something perhaps you could get used to?

We are working hard to attract new users to the platform. This has come up
again and again in user testing. This evening we tested this new handler
list on new users for the first time. It went over very well.

So keep it.
  Make it on by default.
  Make it configurable so others can hide it if they want.

Alex.


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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-11 Thread Tore Nilsen via use-livecode
I have played a bit with the enhanced script editor and while I like the idea 
with the handler lists I am not sure that the implementation is as good as it 
could be.

I find it a bit confusing to see a list of handlers in the handler list without 
any actual handlers in the script itself. From my experiences teaching coding 
with LiveCode, I think that my students also will find this a bit confusing. I 
think the handlers should be moved to a menu or a scrolling list above the list 
that shows which handlers are currently used in the script. Then there will be 
a clear visual division between handlers created by the user and handlers that 
are available to the user. It is also important that this menu/list is labeled 
properly. In a script with a lot of handlers, the handler list will eventually 
be pushed out of sight the way it is implemented now.
If this list should be helpful to more inexperienced users, it is vital that 
the most common handlers for any given control appear at the top of the list. 
The more esoteric once can be placed at the bottom of the menu/list. It is also 
vital to think through which handlers are shown in the script of which control, 
especially since you can place almost any handler in the script of any control, 
as long as there is a call to that handler further up in the message hierarchy.
Better uniformity in how the handlers are presented when inserted into the 
script is needed. The mouseUp handler comes with comments explaining the 
handler, whereas the mouseDown handler does not. Also, params containing the 
same values should be called the same. In mouseUp the parameter is called 
mouseButtonNumer, in moouseDown it is called pMouseButton. 

These are some of my initial thoughts about what I think can be a very useful 
enhancement to the editor.

Regards
Tore Nilsen




> 11. jul. 2017 kl. 16:54 skrev panagiotis merakos via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> Dear list members,
> 
> We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 8.1.6 RC-1.
> 
> Getting the Release
> ===
> You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ or via
> the automatic updater.
> 
> 
> Release Contents
> 
> 
> LiveCode 8.1.6 RC-1 contains 32 bug fixes, new features, as well as
> security and stability improvements:
> 
> - A couple of crashes have been fixed.
> - New version of tsNet (1.2.10) that addresses various network-related bugs
> is included.
> - The flow in the interactive tutorials has been improved.
> 
> A new feature in the script editor has been added, this is the ability to
> choose from a list of default handlers to add to the object script.
> 
> Objects no longer have default scripts that appear in the script editor
> when their empty scripts are edited. Instead, all the associated message
> handlers for the object type now appear in a list underneath the list of
> handlers that are present in the script. When clicked, these lines add the
> selected default handler to the end of the current script.
> 
> The full release notes are available from:
> http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/8_1_6/LiveCodeNotes-8_1_6_rc_1.pdf
> 
> 
> Feedback
> 
> Please report any bugs encountered on our BugZilla at
> http://quality.livecode.com/
> 
> 
> Have fun!
> The LiveCode Team
> --
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
> preferences:
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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-11 Thread Kevin Miller via use-livecode
Is it something perhaps you could get used to?

We are working hard to attract new users to the platform. This has come up
again and again in user testing. This evening we tested this new handler
list on new users for the first time. It went over very well.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps




On 11/07/2017, 23:05, "use-livecode on behalf of Matthias Rebbe via
use-livecode"  wrote:

>
>Matthias Rebbe
>+49 5741 31
>?matthiasrebbe.eu ?
>> 
>> 
>> A new feature in the script editor has been added, this is the ability
>>to
>> choose from a list of default handlers to add to the object script.
>
>I am not sure if i like this new handler list. At least at that place. I
>find it somehow disturbing. I am not sure if this is the correct
>expression.
>Is there a way to hide that list in the editor? Or is there a way to make
>at least the height of that list smaller?
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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-11 Thread Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode

Matthias Rebbe
+49 5741 31
‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌
> 
> 
> A new feature in the script editor has been added, this is the ability to
> choose from a list of default handlers to add to the object script.

I am not sure if i like this new handler list. At least at that place. I find 
it somehow disturbing. I am not sure if this is the correct expression.
Is there a way to hide that list in the editor? Or is there a way to make at 
least the height of that list smaller?
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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-11 Thread panagiotis merakos via use-livecode
H Richmond,

Thanks for the feedback.

The default handlers appear exactly as they are in the dictionary. Indeed,
the mouseUp handler for example does take a parameter 
(see dictionary).

If you don't need to do different things in the mouseUp handler depending
on the , you can just ignore it (e.g. no need to delete
this param), and it will act just like a regular mouseUp handler with no
params.

Best,
Panos
--

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 8:41 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I am impressed with the new default handler list . . .
>
> BUT . . . I wonder why, on choosing either mouseDown or mouseUp it prompts
> me for a mouseButton number . . .
>
> if this feature is meant to speed things up, it doesn't, as one normally
> spends time choosing the default
> handler and then deleting the mouseButton thing.
>
> A great idea that needs a bit of sorting out.
>
> Richmond.
>
>
> On 7/11/17 5:54 pm, panagiotis merakos via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> Dear list members,
>>
>> We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 8.1.6 RC-1.
>>
>> Getting the Release
>> ===
>> You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ or
>> via
>> the automatic updater.
>>
>>
>> Release Contents
>> 
>>
>> LiveCode 8.1.6 RC-1 contains 32 bug fixes, new features, as well as
>> security and stability improvements:
>>
>> - A couple of crashes have been fixed.
>> - New version of tsNet (1.2.10) that addresses various network-related
>> bugs
>> is included.
>> - The flow in the interactive tutorials has been improved.
>>
>> A new feature in the script editor has been added, this is the ability to
>> choose from a list of default handlers to add to the object script.
>>
>> Objects no longer have default scripts that appear in the script editor
>> when their empty scripts are edited. Instead, all the associated message
>> handlers for the object type now appear in a list underneath the list of
>> handlers that are present in the script. When clicked, these lines add the
>> selected default handler to the end of the current script.
>>
>> The full release notes are available from:
>> http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/8_1_6/LiveCodeNotes-8_1_6_rc_1.pdf
>>
>>
>> Feedback
>> 
>> Please report any bugs encountered on our BugZilla at
>> http://quality.livecode.com/
>>
>>
>> Have fun!
>> The LiveCode Team
>> --
>> ___
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>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
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>> subscription preferences:
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>>
>
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Re: [ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-11 Thread Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode

I am impressed with the new default handler list . . .

BUT . . . I wonder why, on choosing either mouseDown or mouseUp it prompts
me for a mouseButton number . . .

if this feature is meant to speed things up, it doesn't, as one normally 
spends time choosing the default

handler and then deleting the mouseButton thing.

A great idea that needs a bit of sorting out.

Richmond.

On 7/11/17 5:54 pm, panagiotis merakos via use-livecode wrote:

Dear list members,

We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 8.1.6 RC-1.

Getting the Release
===
You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ or via
the automatic updater.


Release Contents


LiveCode 8.1.6 RC-1 contains 32 bug fixes, new features, as well as
security and stability improvements:

- A couple of crashes have been fixed.
- New version of tsNet (1.2.10) that addresses various network-related bugs
is included.
- The flow in the interactive tutorials has been improved.

A new feature in the script editor has been added, this is the ability to
choose from a list of default handlers to add to the object script.

Objects no longer have default scripts that appear in the script editor
when their empty scripts are edited. Instead, all the associated message
handlers for the object type now appear in a list underneath the list of
handlers that are present in the script. When clicked, these lines add the
selected default handler to the end of the current script.

The full release notes are available from:
http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/8_1_6/LiveCodeNotes-8_1_6_rc_1.pdf


Feedback

Please report any bugs encountered on our BugZilla at
http://quality.livecode.com/


Have fun!
The LiveCode Team
--
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[ANN] Release 8.1.6 RC-1

2017-07-11 Thread panagiotis merakos via use-livecode
Dear list members,

We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 8.1.6 RC-1.

Getting the Release
===
You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ or via
the automatic updater.


Release Contents


LiveCode 8.1.6 RC-1 contains 32 bug fixes, new features, as well as
security and stability improvements:

- A couple of crashes have been fixed.
- New version of tsNet (1.2.10) that addresses various network-related bugs
is included.
- The flow in the interactive tutorials has been improved.

A new feature in the script editor has been added, this is the ability to
choose from a list of default handlers to add to the object script.

Objects no longer have default scripts that appear in the script editor
when their empty scripts are edited. Instead, all the associated message
handlers for the object type now appear in a list underneath the list of
handlers that are present in the script. When clicked, these lines add the
selected default handler to the end of the current script.

The full release notes are available from:
http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/8_1_6/LiveCodeNotes-8_1_6_rc_1.pdf


Feedback

Please report any bugs encountered on our BugZilla at
http://quality.livecode.com/


Have fun!
The LiveCode Team
--
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