Re: ADA Compliency

2020-06-01 Thread Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via use-livecode

I’m glad this has been brought up as I have done some internal investigation 
myself, with mixed results. A higher education institute I work for pushes us 
hard for a11y forward workflows (to the point where we’re supposed to include a 
text description of any MEMEs we post in the official Slack channel). This made 
me aware of some common issues and tools for adaptive technology.

As Curry mentioned (bravo for the excellent thread), there are LOTS of 
impairments to consider with absolutely zero practical way of accommodating 
them all. For the sake of web/mobile most usability requirements would tend to 
land on touch/motor (adaptive input), vision (text size, screen colors, text to 
speech), and hearing (transcripts and audio descriptions). iOS has some great 
accessibility features built-in that (I’ve been told by our “experts”) are the 
most common tools for the platform. 

So I gave them a go with a simple Livecode stack consisting of:
- native text field with content
- Livecode text field with content
- native button
- 3 Livecode text fields next to each other

A basic test that I tried was using the VoiceOver option. This is basically 
text to speech at the OS level. Everything in my Livecode app was recognized as 
“possible text” by the OS, including the system clock in the corner, but not 
even the native text fields were “recognized" as text. This worked ok if the 
text had a wide line length across the whole screen, but fell apart if fields 
with word wrap were placed next to each other (columns were ignored and reads 
across the entire screen, then goes “down a line” and reads across the screen, 
etc.). None of the text options take into account the Display & Text Size 
system settings.


—Andrew Bell
> 
> 
>> Re: ADA Compliency (Curry Kenworthy)
>> From: Curry Kenworthy 
>> Subject: Re: ADA Compliency
>> 
>> 
>> Rick:
>> 
>>> I have a couple of questions for you.
>> 
>> Thanks Rick! I do appreciate the concern. But in my post, your questions 
>> were already either answered or otherwise addressed before you asked. I 
>> anticipated them; I know what makes people tick! So I'll "re-answer" 
>> partly by quoting myself.
>> 
>> But when certain memes are burned so deep into community psyche that 
>> answers bounce right off, I feel like we're heading back toward the old 
>> failed group think. The same old patronizing ideas and faulty 
>> assumptions, while actually ignoring both the main point and the details 
>> of what I posted about UI.
>> 
>> Somehow we have to SHOUT louder than those old memes to get through!
>> 
>>> Is a trackpad or a trackball any better of an experience for you?
>> 
>> Heck no! Emphatically no. Much, much worse. Much more difficult. That's 
>> why I emphasized my mouse use already, to avoid precisely this type of 
>> inevitable question. Just be aware that the old oh handicap people 
>> should use blah blah mindset - the memes are sometimes true, but more 
>> often not.
>> 
>> Mouse = good. For handicap man too!
>> Trashing a UI to replace scientific arrangement with lickable = bad.
>> 
>> I said: "I'm very comfortable using the mouse if set up correctly. I 
>> switched to Windows for my main work, and that helped save energy and 
>> improve accuracy."
>> 
>> Thus, problem mostly solved on my end, at least when using apps and web 
>> sites with non-crappy UI. Pretty easy solution. Handicap man happy.
>> 
>> But problem not solved on Apple's end. Handicap man sad for Apple!
>> It really was a lousy move, destroying a once superior interface.
>> 
>>> Have you tried using the mac OS voice commands or controls?
>> 
>> Strike two! Think carefully about the implications of what I said: "I 
>> can only say a few words without getting out of breath."
>> 
>> For people with good breathing, this is a very good thing for typing or 
>> for no-hands computer use. But imagining it would be more efficient than 
>> mouse for the ability levels I described - and imagining I'm suffering 
>> here because I just haven't tried trackpad or voice recognition (I've 
>> built Mac apps with voice recognition) - no way. Totally unrealistic!
>> 
>> Now, a mental interface might be good, that's another story. Some 
>> interest there, for the future. But I'm not anywhere near ready for that 
>> yet. Privacy concerns etc, plus very importantly - use it or lose it. 
>> Without that exercise, the fingers are toast, and I need those guys. 
>> Maybe when I'm 80. Maybe I'll design it myself now and use it then.
>> 
>>> Apple has the money and resources to do it.
>> 
>> N

Re: ADA Compliency

2020-05-30 Thread Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode


Peter:

> I’m currently working on adding accessibility to my text and
> media-heavy music application. In trying to find actual information
> about doing this in a way that is both “compliant” and also good UI—
> I find very little data online.

Nice project! For the standards side of it, I would keep the DOJ 
Software Accessibility Checklist handy:


https://www.justice.gov/crt/software-accessibility-checklist

(It's good, but not quite up-to-date to the minute - mentions Win95 :D
You could also use the DOE version and the WCAG as references.)

> making LiveCode compatible with screen readers (software that
> navigates other software by key commands) is out of the question
> for me

This would be a GREAT feature for LC Ltd to implement. As important as 
accessibility is nowadays, it should be quite high on the feature 
priority list! Kudos to you and Dan for bringing it up.


And who knows, maybe some funding or tax break would be available for LC 
or others. (Also, good to know for we the companies that use LC.) On the 
USA side, here's a tax break, not huge but it might help someone:




> so I have to come up with my own design of a navigation by keyboard
> control with a voice prompts system along with text to speech.

Excellent! That has a lot of potential.

> doing this in a way that is both “compliant” and also good UI

I consider the two largely separate, and almost never the twain

Unfortunately, legal standards are usually big clumsy affairs, 
heavy-handed on enforcement and lightweight on human-readable 
guidelines/advice. Still they can be good, and the checklist is actually 
pretty great! But for that half it's doing things the way of government. 
"Render into Caesar" (If I can say that here. Not quoting the fuller 
context, LOL. Pretty meaningful historical statement, though.)


> How do I get on the right track with this without “hiring a
> consultant” or interviewing and testing with numbers of people
> with various disabilities, including physical mobility?

For the UI half, it can be your own opportunity to shine and do it 
better, or you could stick closer to existing advice which as you say is 
mostly web-based, but there are a small sprinkling of software pages.


You know me - I would tend to go with the "opportunity to shine" route, 
my own choices, after meeting the legal list. But my personal and 
professional experience is mostly with a range of physical impairments 
rather than sight issues. As I project, I'd love it (hits close to home) 
and do the research and setup needed. As a casual question I'll give it 
a shot, off top of head.


I like big and beautiful buttons for the main features, a very readable 
font size, all buttons big enough (think iOS mobile size guidelines for 
touch, but applied consistently rather than the Apple thee-not-me way) 
and minimal user actions per task, among other things. Much of that is 
the physical again, but some would carry over to the visually impaired.


Navigating your voiced keyboard control is a big thing - make it 
super-easy and elegant! If you have those, and what's possible from the 
gov checklist, it looks great to me.


Also keys can make people tired - typing has made me super tired at 
times, last year especially. (Oddly I seemed to wind up better on typing 
after COVID, but worse in other areas especially breath.) The fewer user 
actions to each particular goal, the better. I could imagine that for 
unsighted people with good strong lungs, speech recognition might be 
even better, so I would want to tie that in too, at least on Mac.


Testing is crucial, and if you can't find free or affordable 
under-sighted testers (there may be some!) you could use a few tricks. 
Try it with eyes shut - but of course you have the developer 
bias/habits/memory yourself, so you could get a sighted person such as 
family or online friend to test that way. There would also ways to 
simulate a few types and degrees of vision impairment while testing, 
although the real thing is better. Compliance should be theoretically a 
best-effort reasonable affair, and a tiny company doesn't have the same 
resources as MS/Google/Apple. Theoretically, that is. The usual caveats.


> So if the big tech companies with their resources have mixed results,
> how well can small guys expect to do?

The big guys unfortunately are working with their own set of handicaps, 
much of it self-imposed. We're just the opposite. Empty pockets, open 
minds! Life is funny that way. So we have a chance too. Great project, 
best of luck and I hope it achieves all your goals very affordably. I 
also hope LC gets some accessibility hooks to benefit all users.


Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/


Re: ADA Compliency

2020-05-29 Thread Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode
Hi Curry,

Back to your original answer… Thanks for this. I’ve benefited over the years 
from your work and advice.

I’m currently working on adding accessibility to my text and media-heavy music 
application. In trying to find actual information about doing this in a way 
that is both “compliant” and also good UI—I find very little data online. While 
trying to find out what someone in the sight-impared spectrum would consider 
good UI, I only hear “I can only tell you what’s bad, not what you should do.” 
Resources online refer to the WCAG standard which deals primarily with web 
pages and Javascript and only tangently to non-web applications. Also, “hire a 
consultant” meaning only certify compliance so you don’t get sued.

Certain things are easy, like adding subtitles to video/audio for the hearing 
impaired. For the visually impaired, changing the contrast and size of text is 
doable. However, for the visually impaired, making LiveCode compatible with 
screen readers (software that navigates other software by key commands) is out 
of the question for me, so I have to come up with my own design of a navigation 
by keyboard control with a voice prompts system along with text to speech. How 
do I get on the right track with this without “hiring a consultant” or 
interviewing and testing with numbers of people with various disabilities, 
including physical mobility?

It’s a tough one without having buckets of money to put into the 
project—something that may get me compliant but not necessarily more sales. I 
still want to do it, however.

So if the big tech companies with their resources have mixed results, how well 
can small guys expect to do?

I do see accessibility as an issue that will only become more important.

Peter Bogdanoff
ArtsInteractive



> On May 29, 2020, at 10:09 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Rick:
> 
> > I have a couple of questions for you.
> 
> Thanks Rick! I do appreciate the concern. But in my post, your questions were 
> already either answered or otherwise addressed before you asked. I 
> anticipated them; I know what makes people tick! So I'll "re-answer" partly 
> by quoting myself.
> 
> But when certain memes are burned so deep into community psyche that answers 
> bounce right off, I feel like we're heading back toward the old failed group 
> think. The same old patronizing ideas and faulty assumptions, while actually 
> ignoring both the main point and the details of what I posted about UI.
> 
> Somehow we have to SHOUT louder than those old memes to get through!
> 
> > Is a trackpad or a trackball any better of an experience for you?
> 
> Heck no! Emphatically no. Much, much worse. Much more difficult. That's why I 
> emphasized my mouse use already, to avoid precisely this type of inevitable 
> question. Just be aware that the old oh handicap people should use blah blah 
> mindset - the memes are sometimes true, but more often not.
> 
> Mouse = good. For handicap man too!
> Trashing a UI to replace scientific arrangement with lickable = bad.
> 
> I said: "I'm very comfortable using the mouse if set up correctly. I switched 
> to Windows for my main work, and that helped save energy and improve 
> accuracy."
> 
> Thus, problem mostly solved on my end, at least when using apps and web sites 
> with non-crappy UI. Pretty easy solution. Handicap man happy.
> 
> But problem not solved on Apple's end. Handicap man sad for Apple!
> It really was a lousy move, destroying a once superior interface.
> 
> > Have you tried using the mac OS voice commands or controls?
> 
> Strike two! Think carefully about the implications of what I said: "I can 
> only say a few words without getting out of breath."
> 
> For people with good breathing, this is a very good thing for typing or for 
> no-hands computer use. But imagining it would be more efficient than mouse 
> for the ability levels I described - and imagining I'm suffering here because 
> I just haven't tried trackpad or voice recognition (I've built Mac apps with 
> voice recognition) - no way. Totally unrealistic!
> 
> Now, a mental interface might be good, that's another story. Some interest 
> there, for the future. But I'm not anywhere near ready for that yet. Privacy 
> concerns etc, plus very importantly - use it or lose it. Without that 
> exercise, the fingers are toast, and I need those guys. Maybe when I'm 80. 
> Maybe I'll design it myself now and use it then.
> 
> > Apple has the money and resources to do it.
> 
> No, probably they don't. They can't. They don't have the brains (or the 
> paradigm) to allow them to do it, not anymore. Not for any amount of money; 
> mental assets are the most crucial. It's sad. I was a huge fan.
> 
> But enough about Apple - as I said, this is a pretty-much universal problem. 
> Only using them as a small example of the problems:
> 
> - Binary thinking about physical abilities
> - Trotting out the same faulty memes and assumptions
> - Placing form above function, 

Re: ADA Compliency

2020-05-29 Thread Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode



Alex:

> You are quoting yourself without adequate context.

Ah yes, I'm trying to keep what I said a big secret, right? :)

Quite the reverse - I was drawing attention to my original post, which 
is readily available in its entirety, which is typically what I suggest.


> The fuller version of what you said was [...]

No, that's not quite the fuller version. Your quote still omits the most 
important context of all, which could easily mislead a hapless reader. 
That is, the context of its topic and main thrust, which you skirt.


My post was NOT primarily about my trouble with the mouse, or rather 
with Mac UI. It was about good and bad UI design and how these choices 
can have bigger consequences, plus the need to recognize a range of 
ability. Otherwise ADA or other compliance will fall short for many.


My hands/mouse versus Mac OS X UI was an EXAMPLE in that context. I use 
that example from time to time (this was not the first mention) because 
it had a fairly big impact on my life.


Luckily there was an alternative OS readily available to solve the 
problem, and - again, to a reasonable extent - that DID ALREADY SOLVE 
the problem. As I indicated in my first post, and emphasized in my 2nd.


That was more of a UI than a hardware problem, in my case, and in the 
very important "fuller context" of my post.


> So I think your rather condescending attempted put-down was wrong.

Attempted put-down? Wow, this is going way off-course and into the realm 
of fantasy. No put-downs yet of individuals here, by my count! Simply 
laying that particular line of questioning to rest for the 2nd time 
(also by my count; this makes 3) and steering back to my point:


Ability is not all-or-nothing. We need to look at the middle too.
Otherwise even "compliance" will still fall short for many.
Good UI can help many people function better and bad UI can hinder them.

> my wife has a neurological condition that is probably on the
> same scale as yours

Sorry to hear that - feel free to send me her condition's name off-list 
if you wish.


> A few years ago, HP had many laptops with a trackpad
> *and* two buttons below it

I had one of those too! Liked the laptop, but using the trackpad that 
way was also no bueno for me. I think I actually started enabling the 
touch-click on those to avoid using the hardware buttons.


To steer back to my point again, and somewhat agreeing with you, that HP 
laptop was an example of good design for different abilities and 
situations. It had the trackpad (to use with hard buttons or software 
clicks) but of course also the ability to plug in a wide variety of mice 
and other pointers.


The same holds true with software UI. Don't ditch a great and 
"scientific" feature (Apple's words, or close to it, from memory) for a 
mere lickable trend. Or if you do, at least provide some options for 
users that prefer the scientific. Could we say...be user friendly? Think 
different? ;) But again, it's not just Apple.


(Man, the "compliency" spelling in the subject line - not mine - is 
starting to make me wince after sending out 3 messages that way. But I 
don't want to change it and break the threading. So here it goes)


Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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Re: ADA Compliency

2020-05-29 Thread Alex Tweedly via use-livecode

On 29/05/2020 18:09, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote:



> Have you tried using the mac OS voice commands or controls?

Strike two! 

I think that's a bad call.
Think carefully about the implications of what I said: "I can only say 
a few words without getting out of breath."


You are quoting yourself without adequate context. The fuller version of 
what you said was


yet I've had several periods in life (including right now after COVID 
for many weeks and ongoing) when I can only say a few words without 
getting out of breath. 
That implies you've had several periods when you did *not* suffer badly 
from shortness of breath., and therefore may well have experience with 
voice input. So I think your rather condescending attempted put-down was 
wrong.


Indeed, I could make a similar evaluation of the first part of your 
response; although you described your (mostly) successful use of a 
mouse, you did not mention your experiences with trackball or trackpad. 
The mere fact that you regularly use one method doesn't mean that you 
haven't also used the others, so it seems a worthwhile question to ask 
for your valuable insights into use of those.


And I'll add a third example of usability declining over time (my wife 
has a neurological condition that is probably on the same scale as yours 
- though of course it will be entire different in detailed effects).


Trackpads are very difficult for her to use. It's not just the X,Y issue 
- it's the third dimension of getting enough touch to be noticed, 
without inadvertently being too firm and having that be counted as a 
button press. This is less of a problem on Windows (specifically HP 
laptops) than it is on Macs, but still an issue. A few years ago, HP had 
many laptops with a trackpad *and* two buttons below it (i.e. nearer to 
the user). That was easy to use compared to modern laptops (though of 
course that has to be tempered with the fact that those laptops died 
years ago, so her fine motor capabilities are much poorer now than they 
were when she used those older HPs).


Alex.

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Re: ADA Compliency

2020-05-29 Thread Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode



Rick, I thanked you for your concern. I'll thank you once again. Your 
questions were just a little bit off target, just like some of my 
clicks; but that's OK. I heard you, and I responded to your actual 
points. Here are my points again:


Ability is not all-or-nothing. We need to look at the middle too.
Good UI can help many people function better and bad UI can hinder them.

For every person missing a hand or completely paralyzed, there's someone 
else in-between. Having body parts, and able to move them, able to see, 
but with real legally and medically recognized moderate to severe 
limitations in mobility, agility and so on.


Folks love the extreme examples at the ends, just like those you 
mentioned, and I'm so glad there are more solutions these days. BTW eye 
tracking is another good tech. I've worked on adaptive tech. But looking 
at the very ends doesn't erase the full range of handicaps.


With my hands and arms I couldn't open a food package without scissors 
to save my life. I have many limits. But luckily I can use mouse and 
keyboard proficiently usually, with just a few caveats like what I 
mentioned, and a gradual progression of the impairments.


I'm in wheelchair 95% of waking time (versus 90% last year) but that's 
OK with a computer; tech is wonderful! Energy has become the bigger 
problem, and when you have serious limitations you spend a lot of that 
energy doing the silly mundane things like trips to the bathroom, or 
meals, and having to really rest after those. Today had another feature 
- my throat muscles decided to take the day off, so I couldn't swallow 
much at all. Had to skip a meal and drink less! But as you see, I could 
still type well today, so I consider it a good day.


People greatly benefit from special adaptive tech. I'm an enthusiast 
there too. But often the real adaptive tech is going overboard for 
people with moderate ability; not efficient in that case. I require 
adaptive equipment for mobility, but use standard computer laptop with 
mouse. Many people with impairments can benefit from standard tech (BTW 
that means the bigger audience, and more money that you mentioned) with 
SMART DESIGN. That's what I keep saying, and I'm not sure you noticed 
it. It's not theory or opinion, but real life experience.


Trends and schools of thought come and go, but that reality is going 
nowhere. Until of course robotics and medical advances erase the 
handicaps themselves. But even then - good UI will still matter. And 
best of all it's a twofer; it helps the sound as well as the lame. :)


Sometimes just a matter of avoiding really lousy/stupid design choices. 
It's literally that simple. Sometimes the more accessible product is 
already there, and the company spends money to make it much worse! I 
gave two real-world examples that impacted me, one for UI and one for a 
physical product. I could give others. It's common, easily avoidable.


But that takes certain resources that sometimes no amount of money can 
buy when a company is locked into what I consider a self-imposed 
mentally handicapped mindset. Similar to what Dilbert always covered so 
well. Good software and OS require a smart approach and sensible 
decisions for UI. Without that, even with ADA compliance, many impaired 
users will remain poorly served! (And normal users too, although less 
impacted.) That is the point. It doesn't take a fortune, because the 
money is being spent either way. The difference is making good choices, 
which are surprisingly rare! Hopefully that'll change soon.


Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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Re: ADA Compliency

2020-05-29 Thread Rick Harrison via use-livecode
Hi Curry,

Sorry I tried to answer, or to be helpful, or to ask any questions.
I had no intentions of getting your blood pressure up.  

I once made a talking calculator to help other people, and all
I got was pushback from others with bad attitudes.
Then people wonder why no one wants to help.

I have a friend who makes prosthetic hands for children.
He 3D prints them all and each is custom made.  He
doesn’t charge for his service at all.

I’ve met people who can do extraordinary art, and work
with a computer and their mobile wheelchairs with nothing
but their mouths.  

Most developers are struggling just to survive in our present
environment where no one wants to pay for software anymore,
and that is with trying to reach huge markets. People with
physical disabilities is a much smaller market so there isn’t
enough development going on in that area.

I’m glad your mouse works for you. I hope you can continue
to use it into your 80’s.

Sorry to bother you.

Rick

> On May 29, 2020, at 1:09 PM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Rick:
> 
> > I have a couple of questions for you.
> 
> Thanks Rick! I do appreciate the concern. But in my post, your questions were 
> already either answered or otherwise addressed before you asked. I 
> anticipated them; I know what makes people tick! So I'll "re-answer" partly 
> by quoting myself.
> 
> But when certain memes are burned so deep into community psyche that answers 
> bounce right off, I feel like we're heading back toward the old failed group 
> think. The same old patronizing ideas and faulty assumptions, while actually 
> ignoring both the main point and the details of what I posted about UI.
> 
> Somehow we have to SHOUT louder than those old memes to get through!
> 
> > Is a trackpad or a trackball any better of an experience for you?
> 
> Heck no! Emphatically no. Much, much worse. Much more difficult. That's why I 
> emphasized my mouse use already, to avoid precisely this type of inevitable 
> question. Just be aware that the old oh handicap people should use blah blah 
> mindset - the memes are sometimes true, but more often not.
> 
> Mouse = good. For handicap man too!
> Trashing a UI to replace scientific arrangement with lickable = bad.
> 
> I said: "I'm very comfortable using the mouse if set up correctly. I switched 
> to Windows for my main work, and that helped save energy and improve 
> accuracy."
> 
> Thus, problem mostly solved on my end, at least when using apps and web sites 
> with non-crappy UI. Pretty easy solution. Handicap man happy.
> 
> But problem not solved on Apple's end. Handicap man sad for Apple!
> It really was a lousy move, destroying a once superior interface.
> 
> > Have you tried using the mac OS voice commands or controls?
> 
> Strike two! Think carefully about the implications of what I said: "I can 
> only say a few words without getting out of breath."
> 
> For people with good breathing, this is a very good thing for typing or for 
> no-hands computer use. But imagining it would be more efficient than mouse 
> for the ability levels I described - and imagining I'm suffering here because 
> I just haven't tried trackpad or voice recognition (I've built Mac apps with 
> voice recognition) - no way. Totally unrealistic!
> 
> Now, a mental interface might be good, that's another story. Some interest 
> there, for the future. But I'm not anywhere near ready for that yet. Privacy 
> concerns etc, plus very importantly - use it or lose it. Without that 
> exercise, the fingers are toast, and I need those guys. Maybe when I'm 80. 
> Maybe I'll design it myself now and use it then.
> 
> > Apple has the money and resources to do it.
> 
> No, probably they don't. They can't. They don't have the brains (or the 
> paradigm) to allow them to do it, not anymore. Not for any amount of money; 
> mental assets are the most crucial. It's sad. I was a huge fan.
> 
> But enough about Apple - as I said, this is a pretty-much universal problem. 
> Only using them as a small example of the problems:
> 
> - Binary thinking about physical abilities
> - Trotting out the same faulty memes and assumptions
> - Placing form above function, subjective over objective
> - Ignoring handicapped voices that don't fit the mold
> - Why being "compliant" will still fail many users
> 
> Ignoring the reality that abilities vary - and not even just a range along 
> one continuum, but a real mixture of strengths and weaknesses in many mental 
> and physical areas. I actually feel like a superman in some areas. I bring 
> heavy strengths to the table, as my clients know.
> 
> Here's one more attempt to break through the group think. Really THINK HARD 
> about this, and don't let it automatically bounce off, try to allow it into 
> your mind. You may have to adjust some old assumptions, and if so that's good:
> 
> In certain ways, I might use a mouse more skillfully than you. It's possible; 
> I'm pretty good, and I'm one heck of an adept user. At 

Re: ADA Compliency

2020-05-29 Thread Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode



Rick:

> I have a couple of questions for you.

Thanks Rick! I do appreciate the concern. But in my post, your questions 
were already either answered or otherwise addressed before you asked. I 
anticipated them; I know what makes people tick! So I'll "re-answer" 
partly by quoting myself.


But when certain memes are burned so deep into community psyche that 
answers bounce right off, I feel like we're heading back toward the old 
failed group think. The same old patronizing ideas and faulty 
assumptions, while actually ignoring both the main point and the details 
of what I posted about UI.


Somehow we have to SHOUT louder than those old memes to get through!

> Is a trackpad or a trackball any better of an experience for you?

Heck no! Emphatically no. Much, much worse. Much more difficult. That's 
why I emphasized my mouse use already, to avoid precisely this type of 
inevitable question. Just be aware that the old oh handicap people 
should use blah blah mindset - the memes are sometimes true, but more 
often not.


Mouse = good. For handicap man too!
Trashing a UI to replace scientific arrangement with lickable = bad.

I said: "I'm very comfortable using the mouse if set up correctly. I 
switched to Windows for my main work, and that helped save energy and 
improve accuracy."


Thus, problem mostly solved on my end, at least when using apps and web 
sites with non-crappy UI. Pretty easy solution. Handicap man happy.


But problem not solved on Apple's end. Handicap man sad for Apple!
It really was a lousy move, destroying a once superior interface.

> Have you tried using the mac OS voice commands or controls?

Strike two! Think carefully about the implications of what I said: "I 
can only say a few words without getting out of breath."


For people with good breathing, this is a very good thing for typing or 
for no-hands computer use. But imagining it would be more efficient than 
mouse for the ability levels I described - and imagining I'm suffering 
here because I just haven't tried trackpad or voice recognition (I've 
built Mac apps with voice recognition) - no way. Totally unrealistic!


Now, a mental interface might be good, that's another story. Some 
interest there, for the future. But I'm not anywhere near ready for that 
yet. Privacy concerns etc, plus very importantly - use it or lose it. 
Without that exercise, the fingers are toast, and I need those guys. 
Maybe when I'm 80. Maybe I'll design it myself now and use it then.


> Apple has the money and resources to do it.

No, probably they don't. They can't. They don't have the brains (or the 
paradigm) to allow them to do it, not anymore. Not for any amount of 
money; mental assets are the most crucial. It's sad. I was a huge fan.


But enough about Apple - as I said, this is a pretty-much universal 
problem. Only using them as a small example of the problems:


- Binary thinking about physical abilities
- Trotting out the same faulty memes and assumptions
- Placing form above function, subjective over objective
- Ignoring handicapped voices that don't fit the mold
- Why being "compliant" will still fail many users

Ignoring the reality that abilities vary - and not even just a range 
along one continuum, but a real mixture of strengths and weaknesses in 
many mental and physical areas. I actually feel like a superman in some 
areas. I bring heavy strengths to the table, as my clients know.


Here's one more attempt to break through the group think. Really THINK 
HARD about this, and don't let it automatically bounce off, try to allow 
it into your mind. You may have to adjust some old assumptions, and if 
so that's good:


In certain ways, I might use a mouse more skillfully than you. It's 
possible; I'm pretty good, and I'm one heck of an adept user. At 
computer 16+ hours a day for both work and rest; I rely on it a LOT for 
all things, since I can't go out and about. In other ways I'm definitely 
worse than you, guaranteed. Some misclicks and doubles. Neurology.


But it's NOT so simple - and in fact so backwards - as oh, he's 
handicapped, he shouldn't use a mouse. (Even though he just said he does 
it well; he's handicapped, so we'll just ignore most of what he says.)


No, no, no, NO! Quite the opposite. This is missing the point, tossing 
most of the actual content, and adopting assumptions that are exactly 
opposite of the real situation. I MUST have a good ergonomic full-sized 
mouse or I can't use the computer at all. I have several backup mice in 
storage for instant swap. With a track pad I'm exhausted in a few 
minutes. Of course I've tried it! That is the reality.


If these popular but faulty memes are so appealing that actual reality 
must be discarded to uphold them, that's sad too. Don't let reality 
bounce off. If we are open to improving our knowledge and perceptions, 
life can improve so much, and progress can happen much faster!


BTW, this mouse versus window UI issue dates way back, to the time of OS 
X 

Re: ADA Compliency

2020-05-29 Thread Rick Harrison via use-livecode
Hi Curry,

I have a couple of questions for you.

Is a trackpad or a trackball any better of an experience for you?

Have you tried using the mac OS voice commands or controls?

Dragon Dictate used to have voice commands and I seem to
recall you could make your own too.  I don’t recall if that was
by using Apple Script or hooking it into Automator.

The compliance thing really has to be built into the operating system.
I think Apple used to be better about it, and I think every few years
they try again to see if it can be made better.  Apple has the money
and resources to do it. Small developers don’t have the money or
resources and they fail a lot just trying to make user interfaces that 
people without disabilities use.

Sorry to hear about your difficulties. I hope you are able to find
solutions that work for you. 

Cheers,

Rick



> On May 29, 2020, at 7:38 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Assistive tech is a wonderful thing, and yet even when that "compliancy" is 
> achieved, the effort is doomed to fall short of real-world needs for many 
> people.
> 
> That's because the "compliancy" designers tend to think in all-or-nothing 
> ideals - and the subset of opinions and studies popular in their 
> social/professional cliques - not addressing the reality of actual ability 
> ranges in the population. Meanwhile standard UI designers tend to throw out 
> some really good ideas. Sometimes people are involved in great works, yet 
> still CLUELESS about things that would help a lot of real people.
> 
> For example I have a neurological/muscular disease that impairs fine movement 
> and deforms the hand shape and ability a bit. My hands now look like ghost of 
> Christmas past or grim reaper hands. In the past they looked almost normal 
> but the movement was already impaired. You don't want these hands. I drop 
> things a lot.
> 
> Both the nerves and muscles are damaged. That affects using the mouse - not a 
> huge effect, but I click a few pixels off-target sometimes. Especially since 
> I also have to keep the mouse on a fairly responsive movement setting to 
> avoid tiring my arm throughout the day. I'm very comfortable using the mouse 
> if set up correctly.
> 
> So the old Mac OS had the window Close box on the OPPOSITE side as the resize 
> and minimize. That reduced by a large percentage the number of misclicks that 
> I had with any important consequences. That was a good feature based on 
> actual research and/or logical thinking. It helped me achieve more and mess 
> up less.
> 
> But Mac OS X threw that and other good things right out the window, in favor 
> of "lickable" colored circles side by side. Just like Windows, but crammed 
> together into a smaller area that was even more prone to misclicks. So Mac 
> was no longer a better interface for me. I switched to Windows for my main 
> work, and that helped save energy and improve accuracy. That's just one 
> example of many.
> 
> And when it came to mobile, Apple made a giant list of HIGs to enforce on all 
> software - except for their own software, of course. They broke their own 
> rules when they felt like it, and their mobile UI is harder for me to use as 
> a result.
> 
> Their rules are arbitrary with selective enforcement. And their rules (both 
> mobile and desktop) actually sometimes IMPEDE rather than promote making UI 
> designs to help people with handicaps and the elderly. Plus the rules change 
> based on touchy-feely trends, like the hat fashions of yore.
> 
> I'm talking about Apple because they are the movers and shakers that directed 
> where we are now. Others (MS, Google) largely followed or went in a similar 
> direction.
> 
> The herd (including the elite producer herd) mostly thinks binary about 
> abilities - either you can use a mouse or you can't. But it's not true. I can 
> use a mouse pretty darn well, but I have to be careful about misclicks. (And 
> sometimes accidental double-clicks that were intended as single.)
> 
> Thank goodness we do have some comfort adjustments such as mouse sensitivity 
> and double-click time, etc. That's smart. But when it comes to 
> "accessibility" the old binary thinking kicks in and the options and design 
> are often pretty retarded, and only realistic for a smaller subset of the 
> portion of our population that has some type of impairment.
> 
> Thankfully they may be focusing on the most heavily impaired, so that's good 
> to at least help some people, but even then, I've had some experience with 
> those and when I see "compliancy" I tend to shake my head. (And worry about 
> the future as my own impairments grow.) Ideals and cliques/trends vs 
> reality
> 
> What we often need is some SMART, to use that word as a noun the way Andy 
> Griffith did. UI needs to be smart. Standards can be good, but when a group 
> starts making standards or guidelines, they often design it partly dumb/bad, 
> and inflict as much harm as good. It could be so much 

Re: ADA Compliency

2020-05-29 Thread Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode



Assistive tech is a wonderful thing, and yet even when that "compliancy" 
is achieved, the effort is doomed to fall short of real-world needs for 
many people.


That's because the "compliancy" designers tend to think in 
all-or-nothing ideals - and the subset of opinions and studies popular 
in their social/professional cliques - not addressing the reality of 
actual ability ranges in the population. Meanwhile standard UI designers 
tend to throw out some really good ideas. Sometimes people are involved 
in great works, yet still CLUELESS about things that would help a lot of 
real people.


For example I have a neurological/muscular disease that impairs fine 
movement and deforms the hand shape and ability a bit. My hands now look 
like ghost of Christmas past or grim reaper hands. In the past they 
looked almost normal but the movement was already impaired. You don't 
want these hands. I drop things a lot.


Both the nerves and muscles are damaged. That affects using the mouse - 
not a huge effect, but I click a few pixels off-target sometimes. 
Especially since I also have to keep the mouse on a fairly responsive 
movement setting to avoid tiring my arm throughout the day. I'm very 
comfortable using the mouse if set up correctly.


So the old Mac OS had the window Close box on the OPPOSITE side as the 
resize and minimize. That reduced by a large percentage the number of 
misclicks that I had with any important consequences. That was a good 
feature based on actual research and/or logical thinking. It helped me 
achieve more and mess up less.


But Mac OS X threw that and other good things right out the window, in 
favor of "lickable" colored circles side by side. Just like Windows, but 
crammed together into a smaller area that was even more prone to 
misclicks. So Mac was no longer a better interface for me. I switched to 
Windows for my main work, and that helped save energy and improve 
accuracy. That's just one example of many.


And when it came to mobile, Apple made a giant list of HIGs to enforce 
on all software - except for their own software, of course. They broke 
their own rules when they felt like it, and their mobile UI is harder 
for me to use as a result.


Their rules are arbitrary with selective enforcement. And their rules 
(both mobile and desktop) actually sometimes IMPEDE rather than promote 
making UI designs to help people with handicaps and the elderly. Plus 
the rules change based on touchy-feely trends, like the hat fashions of 
yore.


I'm talking about Apple because they are the movers and shakers that 
directed where we are now. Others (MS, Google) largely followed or went 
in a similar direction.


The herd (including the elite producer herd) mostly thinks binary about 
abilities - either you can use a mouse or you can't. But it's not true. 
I can use a mouse pretty darn well, but I have to be careful about 
misclicks. (And sometimes accidental double-clicks that were intended as 
single.)


Thank goodness we do have some comfort adjustments such as mouse 
sensitivity and double-click time, etc. That's smart. But when it comes 
to "accessibility" the old binary thinking kicks in and the options and 
design are often pretty retarded, and only realistic for a smaller 
subset of the portion of our population that has some type of impairment.


Thankfully they may be focusing on the most heavily impaired, so that's 
good to at least help some people, but even then, I've had some 
experience with those and when I see "compliancy" I tend to shake my 
head. (And worry about the future as my own impairments grow.) Ideals 
and cliques/trends vs reality


What we often need is some SMART, to use that word as a noun the way 
Andy Griffith did. UI needs to be smart. Standards can be good, but when 
a group starts making standards or guidelines, they often design it 
partly dumb/bad, and inflict as much harm as good. It could be so much 
better. Desktop and mobile.


It's the same with physical products. I can't open Amazon's 
"frustration-free" packaging even with pliers. Whoever designed and 
approved that one was seriously out of touch with reality - a total 
farce. I can open a regular taped box easily with a cutter. Similar 
results happen sometimes in software, when good efforts go bad. If only 
more of these efforts could be compliant AND smart!


Society needs to mature enough to reality that there is a pretty wide 
range of ability. I can do things on a computer (with a mouse) that 
would amaze many people, yet I have those misclicks and double-clicks to 
watch out for.


I can (or could) do a wide range of voices/accents, which most people 
can't do, yet I've had several periods in life (including right now 
after COVID for many weeks and ongoing) when I can only say a few words 
without getting out of breath. I've had to cancel meetings, and am 
getting set up to make instructional videos WITHOUT talking.


I can hear and see quite well and I catch many 

Re: ADA Compliency

2020-05-28 Thread Paul Dupuis via use-livecode

On 5/26/2020 6:56 PM, Dan Friedman via use-livecode wrote:

Has anyone done anything in regards to ADA compliancy in mobile apps built with 
LiveCode?   Using the apple or android accessibility tools such as Screen 
reading, for example.




I have been periodically looking at assistive technologies for LiveCode 
built applications on desktop platforms (vs mobile) over the years. 
Certain OS bases assistive tool like screen magnifiers do work as they 
are application independent. Unfortunately, screen readers and voice 
recognition tools generally don't work with LiveCode because the 
application independent tools look to act on OS native controls which 
most LC app don't use through out.


With LC 9 and the FFI/Widgets it may be possible to build integration 
libraries for one or more of those assistive tools that require 
application specific integration, but I don't think anyone has done it.


For mobile ADA compliance, you best bet is to test your app with 
whatever OS level assistive tools are provided with iOS and Android or 
look in the associated App store for application independent assistive 
app to test with your app.


If you mobile uses all native controls it *may* work better with OS or 
3rd party assistive tool, but that is a guess. I have no mobile app 
experience.



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Re: ADA Compliency

2020-05-28 Thread Mike Kerner via use-livecode
Oh gawd, I had an ancient college sweaty OMG FINALS panic attack, because I
thought you wrote Ada, not ADA.


On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 6:57 PM Dan Friedman via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Has anyone done anything in regards to ADA compliancy in mobile apps built
> with LiveCode?   Using the apple or android accessibility tools such as
> Screen reading, for example.
>
> -Dan
>
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On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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ADA Compliency

2020-05-26 Thread Dan Friedman via use-livecode
Has anyone done anything in regards to ADA compliancy in mobile apps built with 
LiveCode?   Using the apple or android accessibility tools such as Screen 
reading, for example. 

-Dan

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