Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode
Your testers can be remote, assuming you get "live wires"  who will dedicate 
time to testing/ communications

I always invite them to SLACK asap so they feel they can contact me any time 
and then we jump into appear.in  video rooms.

I just exited 2 hours of meetings with one young mom, her daughter and two teen 
agers.

Obvious things like "Will we be able to still listen to the audio if we do 
other stuff on our phone?" (doable on iOS, not on android?)

and "if we return to the same audio from the history, can we start up where we 
left off? (easy one, current time of mobile player is easily save to the 
""Journal")

duh

or  the hard ones:

"I think your openings screen rows (links to content) are too big… can we make 
the smaller young users won't want to scroll all over the place." (why hard? 
stack holders fascination prioritizing graphics over UX efficiency, those are 
the hard ones)

and yes, there is no substitute for face-to-face… but you can do that on line 
so easily now.

testing our app: sure: go here:

g...@github.com:Himalayan-Academy/Siva-Siva-App.git


pull the nightly branch.

if you "don't do git" then send me your UDID (off list)

OR if you are on android then super easy: open this page on your phone and 
click the link to download the PKG

http://dev.himalayanacademy.com/looklisten/apps/sivasiva/

Though LC performance on Android is quite bad on some devices. I have some man 
with a Blackberry running 3 GB ram, with some super process and plenty of HD 
space. but he complains it is slow… but my more "under powered" Nexus 5 Runs 
the app quite well.  

I am also interested in your Augmented Earth project… but I can't get past the 
log in screen…


 

On 7/7/17, 2:50 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode" 
 wrote:

I am impressed by your circle of beta testers!

I have plenty of friends and family that would help, but they are spread 
around the country. 

Point taken about folks not communicating so well. It seems like direct 
observation of them using it could help.

The way my brain works, I am decent at figuring out clever solutions, but 
terrible at realizing what others will find intuitive. It looks like I will 
need to put in extra effort to cultivate my testers.

My plan for very slow early growth is partly to compensate for this issue. 
It needs to be a near flawless user experience before I start promoting.

I can be a beta tester for you, if that would help. I don't resemble your 
target market in the least, and my UI preferences are odd, but I might have 
some good ideas.

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Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
On July 7, 2017 8:26:53 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
 wrote:



There's a truism that you can't test your
own software - you're way to close to the way it *should* work to ever
figure out how users are going to try to use it.


Oh man is that ever true. I'm lucky enough in one of my current projects to 
have a small team of paid QA testers (very rare.) They do things I never 
ever would have thought of. Some of it is so ridiculous that no one in 
their right mind would try it. I get irritated until I remind myself that 
we're paying them to do that. So then I fix it.


The last one was one of those "out of order" sequences I mentioned. It 
caused me to rewrite a huge section that forced users into the expected 
data entry sequence. Took 2 days, but we ended up with a more professional 
app that also eliminated a lot of error checking.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



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Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread Mark Wieder via use-livecode

On 07/07/2017 05:07 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:


That's it. Everything else I'm about to tell you is just commentary."


Great background story.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com


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Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread Mark Wieder via use-livecode

On 07/07/2017 05:50 PM, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode wrote:


The way my brain works, I am decent at figuring out clever solutions, but 
terrible at realizing what others will find intuitive.


Heh. You're not alone there. There's a truism that you can't test your 
own software - you're way to close to the way it *should* work to ever 
figure out how users are going to try to use it.



my UI preferences are odd,


You make that sound like a bad thing... 

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com


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Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode
I am impressed by your circle of beta testers!

I have plenty of friends and family that would help, but they are spread around 
the country. 

Point taken about folks not communicating so well. It seems like direct 
observation of them using it could help.

The way my brain works, I am decent at figuring out clever solutions, but 
terrible at realizing what others will find intuitive. It looks like I will 
need to put in extra effort to cultivate my testers.

My plan for very slow early growth is partly to compensate for this issue. It 
needs to be a near flawless user experience before I start promoting.

I can be a beta tester for you, if that would help. I don't resemble your 
target market in the least, and my UI preferences are odd, but I might have 
some good ideas.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 7, 2017, at 8:07 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I would echo Jacqueline's advice here:
> 
> " There's no secret to creating a great application that people will use and 
> enjoy. Test the application and everything in it, again and again. Run 
> everything through its paces several times and in different orders. Click 
> every button, read and scroll every field, run every script. Show every 
> dialog—and when you do, try every possible response button. Then get all your 
> friends to do the same thing too.
> 
> That's it. Everything else I'm about to tell you is just commentary."
> 
> I myself will run through the app, over and over and OVER again… as Mark 
> says, you will end up in the developer minds set and miss the UX stuff;   so 
> you need to step away mentally and do a "reset" on your head space.. then 
> come back and run through it all again. I probably spend 50 % of my time 
> working on content. 30% on code and a full 20% just "thinking about it, how 
> it works, from a user point of view." And you do this away from your computer!
> 
> Like today little girl told me "I love doing the word puzzles, but when I 
> first came to that screen it was a bit confusing how it was supposed to work. 
> Not everyone will think to click on the "I" icon [supposed to be for 
> "info/help")  Maybe you could show instructions the first time?"  and "it 
> would be great if you could save the puzzle in a semi-finished state, so I 
> can come back and finish it." This "little girl" in a 10 year-odl body with a 
> 19year old brain that actually has the patience to take a 300 character quote 
> and put the words in order, even if it takes her 20 minutes!  Even I won'd do 
> that… but she will, but she might have to run off to school and stop half way 
> through…. 
> 
> Another more mature response to the first beta: "It's all very lovely, but 
> I'm not clued in to what, where we are going …." 
> 
> In V2 or V3 I'm planning to have a little more curated entry to the app… 
> There's got to be more of "a story here"
> 
> so you will never get this UX feedback on your own.
> 
> I have about 40 beta testers.. even they are, frankly terrible about give us 
> feedback. …   if you are non-profit or on shoe string budgets, you can't pay 
> for testing, and volunteers are often super busy people. So you have to be 
> very pro-active in engaging feedback.  I'm a bit "in your face" with guests 
> here when I spot someone in my "target market" (young 15-40 educated, Hindu 
> background modern mind set)  I've come to know who will be engaged and who 
> will not.
> 
> But this type of users (Free beta testers) are not UX experts either… so you 
> get  either silence or "it works great lovely very handy and responsive on my 
> iPhone" or "it's slow" [android]  without telling me exactly what is slow and 
> when. I have deliberately hold mini "focus meetings" here with some of them 
> and drag out from them what is "wrong" with the app, because not being up on 
> UX, these users don't know how to articulate their experience very well. 
> 
> I'm constantly collecting possible beta testers. Apple devices on the 
> developer account are running up close to 45 for this year , with about as 
> many turned off from last year… and we have at least another 30 android uses… 
> but, maybe only 3-5 of these will actually communicate with me. Once I 
> actually find someone who is interested enough and articulate enough and has 
> the time to stop and talk about it, e.g.
> 
> "I really don't like that timer giving a count down sound. It ruins the 
> experience. Just let me decide how long, then let it run and at the end you 
> can "ding""
> 
> OK Aha! then I "got one!" … i.e. someone  you can spend on to help with the 
> UX and milk that dialog about the UX as much as a I can.
> 
> I have two meetings on the latest beta this afternoon: one with a 
> professional health care lady and  her daughter who both test the app and 
> another with a 19year old brilliant university studen, who flew to Kauai just 
> to go on a "study retreat" for some crazy advance bio-genetic engineering 
> 

Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode
I would echo Jacqueline's advice here:

" There's no secret to creating a great application that people will use and 
enjoy. Test the application and everything in it, again and again. Run 
everything through its paces several times and in different orders. Click every 
button, read and scroll every field, run every script. Show every dialog—and 
when you do, try every possible response button. Then get all your friends to 
do the same thing too.

That's it. Everything else I'm about to tell you is just commentary."

I myself will run through the app, over and over and OVER again… as Mark says, 
you will end up in the developer minds set and miss the UX stuff;   so you need 
to step away mentally and do a "reset" on your head space.. then come back and 
run through it all again. I probably spend 50 % of my time working on content. 
30% on code and a full 20% just "thinking about it, how it works, from a user 
point of view." And you do this away from your computer!

Like today little girl told me "I love doing the word puzzles, but when I first 
came to that screen it was a bit confusing how it was supposed to work. Not 
everyone will think to click on the "I" icon [supposed to be for "info/help")  
Maybe you could show instructions the first time?"  and "it would be great if 
you could save the puzzle in a semi-finished state, so I can come back and 
finish it." This "little girl" in a 10 year-odl body with a 19year old brain 
that actually has the patience to take a 300 character quote and put the words 
in order, even if it takes her 20 minutes!  Even I won'd do that… but she will, 
but she might have to run off to school and stop half way through…. 

Another more mature response to the first beta: "It's all very lovely, but I'm 
not clued in to what, where we are going …." 

In V2 or V3 I'm planning to have a little more curated entry to the app… 
There's got to be more of "a story here"

so you will never get this UX feedback on your own.

I have about 40 beta testers.. even they are, frankly terrible about give us 
feedback. …   if you are non-profit or on shoe string budgets, you can't pay 
for testing, and volunteers are often super busy people. So you have to be very 
pro-active in engaging feedback.  I'm a bit "in your face" with guests here 
when I spot someone in my "target market" (young 15-40 educated, Hindu 
background modern mind set)  I've come to know who will be engaged and who will 
not.

But this type of users (Free beta testers) are not UX experts either… so you 
get  either silence or "it works great lovely very handy and responsive on my 
iPhone" or "it's slow" [android]  without telling me exactly what is slow and 
when. I have deliberately hold mini "focus meetings" here with some of them and 
drag out from them what is "wrong" with the app, because not being up on UX, 
these users don't know how to articulate their experience very well. 

I'm constantly collecting possible beta testers. Apple devices on the developer 
account are running up close to 45 for this year , with about as many turned 
off from last year… and we have at least another 30 android uses… but, maybe 
only 3-5 of these will actually communicate with me. Once I actually find 
someone who is interested enough and articulate enough and has the time to stop 
and talk about it, e.g.

"I really don't like that timer giving a count down sound. It ruins the 
experience. Just let me decide how long, then let it run and at the end you can 
"ding""

OK Aha! then I "got one!" … i.e. someone  you can spend on to help with the UX 
and milk that dialog about the UX as much as a I can.

I have two meetings on the latest beta this afternoon: one with a professional 
health care lady and  her daughter who both test the app and another with a 
19year old brilliant university studen, who flew to Kauai just to go on a 
"study retreat" for some crazy advance bio-genetic engineering exams.. who is 
very open and articulate about  what they think about how it should work. And I 
have on my schedule to talk to 4 different beta testers remotely 

This doesn't happen by itself, you have to be super pro active. Once yet get a 
team of volunteer testers who are engaged, even just 4-5, who communicate well 
with you, you are good to go. But you might have to work through 100 different 
individuals before you find those 5.

That's my experience so far here… 




 

On 7/7/17, 7:53 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode" 
 wrote:

Thank you, Jacqueline 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 7, 2017, at 1:39 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
 wrote:
> 
> http://hyperactivesw.com/resources_testing.html
> 
> 
>> On July 7, 2017 6:59:52 AM Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode 
 wrote:
>> 
>> What steps do you guys follow for accurate 

Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode
Thanks Bill

I am thinking of reaching out to Trip Advisor after version 1.5, but focusing 
on high schools initially.

Trolls are a big concern. I have a lot ideas on dealing with that, including 
taking advantage of the self-correcting nature of social media. I am going to 
add in a rating system for reports and enable users to exclude poorly rated 
reports from appearing on their maps. I also want to have a class of users 
called documentarians, and enable users to see only reports from them. 
Documentarians will earn half the sponsorship income from their reports, so 
that will hopefully lead to a bunch of high- quality postings. I also have some 
ideas for a report review system.

All of that will be a start. If the trolling gets too be too much, I could 
resort to requiring that postings be reviewed before being being posted to 
certain categories.

I have some ideas on how to use trolls as an asset, but that is not fully 
thought out yet.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 7, 2017, at 6:24 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Jonathon:
> There are two learning processes going on. One is for the person testing the 
> software, the second is for you, learning what kinds of interface approaches 
> hang up new users. As you learn, by observing users, you will gain approaches 
> that minimize future user problems, and you will find that you will be able 
> to code in a way that avoids them.
> 
> If it were me, I would start small with the evaluation, and do it first by 
> informal observation, encouraging the user to think out loud as he/she uses 
> the app. You will get a feel for obstacles pretty quickly. You may run out of 
> test users quickly if you use many of them at once, so put as much common 
> sense as you can into changes that you make between new testers. If this is 
> unsuccessful, then you will have to expend more of your resources on testing.
> 
> Another good thing is to download and try other apps, checking to see how 
> their UI is set up. For example, almost every web delivered login page is the 
> same or similar. Why? Because they work. When numerous apps take a similar 
> approach, learn from them.
> 
> Good luck. Please post what you learn from your testing.
> 
> Another piece of advice (worth what it costs you??). Your application is 
> actually huge. Think Facebook and the other biggies. Maintaining it, should 
> it be successful, will be HUGE! Think trollers, spammers, whackos, etc, etc. 
> I had a site where I allowed anybody to create an account (but I had to 
> approve the account to activate it), and got loads of trial logins from 
> spammers and bots. Finally, I just disabled new accounts. I wonder if you 
> might want to consider narrowing the scope of your app, perhaps to a specific 
> education segment. Or, maybe a particular travel segment or for a specific 
> tour company. This would let you get your app out there and identify early 
> issues. A tour company might find a custom branded app that supports their 
> tour company to be appealing.
> 
> Good luck,
> 
> Best,
> Bill P.
> 
> 
>> On Jul 7, 2017, at 3:01 PM, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> It does help, Scott - sounds like I should segment the testing process with 
>> a cycle, running through the test, observe, discuss, note cycle for each 
>> group of functionalities. Not unlike PM methodology.
>> 
>> Because I am looking to perfect and grow a single app over many years, I 
>> should be able to reliably group the functional areas for testing.
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jul 7, 2017, at 5:56 PM, jonathandly...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> It sounds like a little bit of direct, intensive observation is worth a lot 
>>> of testing a a distance.
>>> 
>>> Thanks Jeff
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Jul 7, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode 
  wrote:
 
 Jonathan,
 
 I second bill's approach of watching folks use the app. Years of 
 educational software creation taught me this. I would always make friends 
 with a local teacher that was into tech and they usually were happy to get 
 a period to try something on the kids if it only took one period to do in 
 the lab and was something they thought good first. Things were so self 
 evident on what just worked and what crashed and burned. I really found 
 that the designs that were forced (usually by marketing) always crashed 
 and burned, but the just good ideas that came out of what was it we were 
 really trying to do somehow avoided most all the little design eddies that 
 folks would get a little hung up by. But watching you could quickly see 
 those eddies w.o having to do hard core testing. Sadly this is hard to do 
 for free in a school anymore but hiring some kids or adults will do.
 
 It's funny as I've found the same 

Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread William Prothero via use-livecode
Jonathon:
There are two learning processes going on. One is for the person testing the 
software, the second is for you, learning what kinds of interface approaches 
hang up new users. As you learn, by observing users, you will gain approaches 
that minimize future user problems, and you will find that you will be able to 
code in a way that avoids them.

If it were me, I would start small with the evaluation, and do it first by 
informal observation, encouraging the user to think out loud as he/she uses the 
app. You will get a feel for obstacles pretty quickly. You may run out of test 
users quickly if you use many of them at once, so put as much common sense as 
you can into changes that you make between new testers. If this is 
unsuccessful, then you will have to expend more of your resources on testing.

Another good thing is to download and try other apps, checking to see how their 
UI is set up. For example, almost every web delivered login page is the same or 
similar. Why? Because they work. When numerous apps take a similar approach, 
learn from them.

Good luck. Please post what you learn from your testing.

Another piece of advice (worth what it costs you??). Your application is 
actually huge. Think Facebook and the other biggies. Maintaining it, should it 
be successful, will be HUGE! Think trollers, spammers, whackos, etc, etc. I had 
a site where I allowed anybody to create an account (but I had to approve the 
account to activate it), and got loads of trial logins from spammers and bots. 
Finally, I just disabled new accounts. I wonder if you might want to consider 
narrowing the scope of your app, perhaps to a specific education segment. Or, 
maybe a particular travel segment or for a specific tour company. This would 
let you get your app out there and identify early issues. A tour company might 
find a custom branded app that supports their tour company to be appealing.

Good luck,

Best,
Bill P.


> On Jul 7, 2017, at 3:01 PM, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> It does help, Scott - sounds like I should segment the testing process with a 
> cycle, running through the test, observe, discuss, note cycle for each group 
> of functionalities. Not unlike PM methodology.
> 
> Because I am looking to perfect and grow a single app over many years, I 
> should be able to reliably group the functional areas for testing.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 7, 2017, at 5:56 PM, jonathandly...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> It sounds like a little bit of direct, intensive observation is worth a lot 
>> of testing a a distance.
>> 
>> Thanks Jeff
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jul 7, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Jonathan,
>>> 
>>> I second bill's approach of watching folks use the app. Years of 
>>> educational software creation taught me this. I would always make friends 
>>> with a local teacher that was into tech and they usually were happy to get 
>>> a period to try something on the kids if it only took one period to do in 
>>> the lab and was something they thought good first. Things were so self 
>>> evident on what just worked and what crashed and burned. I really found 
>>> that the designs that were forced (usually by marketing) always crashed and 
>>> burned, but the just good ideas that came out of what was it we were really 
>>> trying to do somehow avoided most all the little design eddies that folks 
>>> would get a little hung up by. But watching you could quickly see those 
>>> eddies w.o having to do hard core testing. Sadly this is hard to do for 
>>> free in a school anymore but hiring some kids or adults will do.
>>> 
>>> It's funny as I've found the same thing with exhibit design. I would always 
>>> spend a few hours just watching folks after we finished an exhibit. I found 
>>> it really invaluable to find the little issues and the big ones and you 
>>> could see so easily what folks were getting and what they were not, what 
>>> they were looking and and not looking at and how they felt about the 
>>> exhibit in the whole. Many of these exhibits got very expensive summative 
>>> evaluations and I found that my just watching observations were right in 
>>> line with heavy testing and many times a bit more complete and useful for 
>>> potentially fixing things and learning for the future.
>>> 
>>> Cheers
>>> 
>>> Jeff
>>> 
 On Jul 7, 2017, at 1:53 PM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote:
 
 Jonathon,
 I feel your pain. In my case, I was initiated by my students and very 
 quickly learned how to ask the questions a newbie would ask. I also paid 
 small amounts to graduate students to get their feedback.
 
 One of my very effective testers is my grandson, my wife, any of my 
 colleagues who might be enticed to use the app. Looking over the shoulder 
 while these folks use the app can be very 

Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode
It does help, Scott - sounds like I should segment the testing process with a 
cycle, running through the test, observe, discuss, note cycle for each group of 
functionalities. Not unlike PM methodology.

Because I am looking to perfect and grow a single app over many years, I should 
be able to reliably group the functional areas for testing.

Thanks!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 7, 2017, at 5:56 PM, jonathandly...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> It sounds like a little bit of direct, intensive observation is worth a lot 
> of testing a a distance.
> 
> Thanks Jeff
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 7, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Jonathan,
>> 
>> I second bill's approach of watching folks use the app. Years of educational 
>> software creation taught me this. I would always make friends with a local 
>> teacher that was into tech and they usually were happy to get a period to 
>> try something on the kids if it only took one period to do in the lab and 
>> was something they thought good first. Things were so self evident on what 
>> just worked and what crashed and burned. I really found that the designs 
>> that were forced (usually by marketing) always crashed and burned, but the 
>> just good ideas that came out of what was it we were really trying to do 
>> somehow avoided most all the little design eddies that folks would get a 
>> little hung up by. But watching you could quickly see those eddies w.o 
>> having to do hard core testing. Sadly this is hard to do for free in a 
>> school anymore but hiring some kids or adults will do.
>> 
>> It's funny as I've found the same thing with exhibit design. I would always 
>> spend a few hours just watching folks after we finished an exhibit. I found 
>> it really invaluable to find the little issues and the big ones and you 
>> could see so easily what folks were getting and what they were not, what 
>> they were looking and and not looking at and how they felt about the exhibit 
>> in the whole. Many of these exhibits got very expensive summative 
>> evaluations and I found that my just watching observations were right in 
>> line with heavy testing and many times a bit more complete and useful for 
>> potentially fixing things and learning for the future.
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
>> Jeff
>> 
>>> On Jul 7, 2017, at 1:53 PM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> Jonathon,
>>> I feel your pain. In my case, I was initiated by my students and very 
>>> quickly learned how to ask the questions a newbie would ask. I also paid 
>>> small amounts to graduate students to get their feedback.
>>> 
>>> One of my very effective testers is my grandson, my wife, any of my 
>>> colleagues who might be enticed to use the app. Looking over the shoulder 
>>> while these folks use the app can be very illuminating. 
>>> 
>>> In summary:
>>> 1. Ask friends and relatives first.
>>> 2. Perhaps there would be volunteers from the live ode users group.
>>> 3. Hire high school students who might have a tech interest. Look over 
>>> their shoulders as they use the app and dialog to themselves. Actually 
>>> watching users is invaluable.
>>> 
>>> Good luck,
>>> Bill P
>> 
>> 
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Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode
It sounds like a little bit of direct, intensive observation is worth a lot of 
testing a a distance.

Thanks Jeff

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 7, 2017, at 5:31 PM, Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Jonathan,
> 
> I second bill's approach of watching folks use the app. Years of educational 
> software creation taught me this. I would always make friends with a local 
> teacher that was into tech and they usually were happy to get a period to try 
> something on the kids if it only took one period to do in the lab and was 
> something they thought good first. Things were so self evident on what just 
> worked and what crashed and burned. I really found that the designs that were 
> forced (usually by marketing) always crashed and burned, but the just good 
> ideas that came out of what was it we were really trying to do somehow 
> avoided most all the little design eddies that folks would get a little hung 
> up by. But watching you could quickly see those eddies w.o having to do hard 
> core testing. Sadly this is hard to do for free in a school anymore but 
> hiring some kids or adults will do.
> 
> It's funny as I've found the same thing with exhibit design. I would always 
> spend a few hours just watching folks after we finished an exhibit. I found 
> it really invaluable to find the little issues and the big ones and you could 
> see so easily what folks were getting and what they were not, what they were 
> looking and and not looking at and how they felt about the exhibit in the 
> whole. Many of these exhibits got very expensive summative evaluations and I 
> found that my just watching observations were right in line with heavy 
> testing and many times a bit more complete and useful for potentially fixing 
> things and learning for the future.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jeff
> 
>> On Jul 7, 2017, at 1:53 PM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote:
>> 
>> Jonathon,
>> I feel your pain. In my case, I was initiated by my students and very 
>> quickly learned how to ask the questions a newbie would ask. I also paid 
>> small amounts to graduate students to get their feedback.
>> 
>> One of my very effective testers is my grandson, my wife, any of my 
>> colleagues who might be enticed to use the app. Looking over the shoulder 
>> while these folks use the app can be very illuminating. 
>> 
>> In summary:
>> 1. Ask friends and relatives first.
>> 2. Perhaps there would be volunteers from the live ode users group.
>> 3. Hire high school students who might have a tech interest. Look over their 
>> shoulders as they use the app and dialog to themselves. Actually watching 
>> users is invaluable.
>> 
>> Good luck,
>> Bill P
> 
> 
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
> preferences:
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Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread Scott Rossi via use-livecode
You don’t have to keep your mouth shut.  In fact, you should be vocal, but you 
want your tester to be more vocal.

Generalized suggestions from past experience…

- First, explain to the tester in general terms what your app does.  Avoid 
getting into operating specifics.

- Tell the tester you want them to verbalize as much as possible their thought 
process when encountering each screen/interaction process.  You goal is to get 
a sense of what the tester is thinking and why, not just whether or not they 
exhibit expected behavior (you will have to prompt the tester repeatedly to 
explain their thinking without scolding or leading).

- Explain to your tester there are no right or wrong actions/answers while 
using your app — you are trying to observe real world behavior and initial 
responses to what they see/experience, and their interaction (or lack of it) in 
no way reflects on their “intelligence”.

- Give the tester one or more planned tasks to complete.  Remind them to 
describe their thinking as they attempt to complete each task.

- Each time the tester is shown a new screen/process, ask them what they think 
they need to do at that point. Ask why.  Keep all requests/comments neutral, 
never correct the tester.  If their response doesn’t fit with your intended 
behavior, ask the tester what they would suggest to improve 
interaction/outcome, or make the process more intelligible.  Avoid allowing the 
tester complete too many tasks in a row without describing their thought 
process.

- If the tester can’t figure out how to proceed to a next step, give them a 
hint (if possible) and determine if they are able to understand the 
interaction. Again, ask for suggestions on what could be improved.  Ask why.

- Rinse and repeat.

- Ask the tester at the end of the test what they felt was the biggest issue 
with the app.  Ask the tester to reiterate how they would correct the problem.  
Review your list of problems encountered by the tester to confirm your 
understanding of the issues.

- Record/note all responses.  Keep written notes at a minimum, use audio and/or 
video recording to collect more detailed/nuanced responses. In an ideal world, 
you would record the tester and the screen they interact with concurrently.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Scott Rossi 
Creative Director 
Tactile Media, UX/UI Design 



> On Jul 7, 2017, at 12:49 PM, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> From reading these, it looks like my basic steps are these:
> 
> 1. Make changes to the app
> 
> 2. Test for usability myself a dozen times, trying things in different orders 
>  and in different ways to make it fail
> 
> 3. Have my testers, which is really about 3 family members, test it to make 
> it fail
> 
> No coaching, no hints
> 
> Directly observe their tests very closely
> 
> Make notes on any moments of confusion, even if they minor
> 
> Interview them, asking what they were thinking at each step
> 
> Adjust the help file and add hints - and test those as well
> 
> 4. Fix as needed and retest
> 
> 5. Publish
> 
> 6. Try to find virgin testers for next time, varying in age and mindset
> 
> Does that sound about right?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 7, 2017, at 1:53 PM, jonathandly...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> Thank you, Jacqueline 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jul 7, 2017, at 1:39 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> http://hyperactivesw.com/resources_testing.html
>>> 
>>> 
 On July 7, 2017 6:59:52 AM Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode 
  wrote:
 
 What steps do you guys follow for accurate testing when you don't have a 
 budget for proper official testing procedures?
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
>>> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
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>>> subscription preferences:
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Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode
Jonathan,

I second bill's approach of watching folks use the app. Years of educational 
software creation taught me this. I would always make friends with a local 
teacher that was into tech and they usually were happy to get a period to try 
something on the kids if it only took one period to do in the lab and was 
something they thought good first. Things were so self evident on what just 
worked and what crashed and burned. I really found that the designs that were 
forced (usually by marketing) always crashed and burned, but the just good 
ideas that came out of what was it we were really trying to do somehow avoided 
most all the little design eddies that folks would get a little hung up by. But 
watching you could quickly see those eddies w.o having to do hard core testing. 
Sadly this is hard to do for free in a school anymore but hiring some kids or 
adults will do.

It's funny as I've found the same thing with exhibit design. I would always 
spend a few hours just watching folks after we finished an exhibit. I found it 
really invaluable to find the little issues and the big ones and you could see 
so easily what folks were getting and what they were not, what they were 
looking and and not looking at and how they felt about the exhibit in the 
whole. Many of these exhibits got very expensive summative evaluations and I 
found that my just watching observations were right in line with heavy testing 
and many times a bit more complete and useful for potentially fixing things and 
learning for the future.

Cheers

Jeff

> On Jul 7, 2017, at 1:53 PM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote:
> 
> Jonathon,
> I feel your pain. In my case, I was initiated by my students and very quickly 
> learned how to ask the questions a newbie would ask. I also paid small 
> amounts to graduate students to get their feedback.
> 
> One of my very effective testers is my grandson, my wife, any of my 
> colleagues who might be enticed to use the app. Looking over the shoulder 
> while these folks use the app can be very illuminating. 
> 
> In summary:
> 1. Ask friends and relatives first.
> 2. Perhaps there would be volunteers from the live ode users group.
> 3. Hire high school students who might have a tech interest. Look over their 
> shoulders as they use the app and dialog to themselves. Actually watching 
> users is invaluable.
> 
> Good luck,
> Bill P


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Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode
Well, 3 out of 3 people who tested my app from this list got stuck signing up, 
but no one got stuck when I was there to prompt them to use the Universal 
Options button.

So, I have to discipline myself to keep my mouth shut. Everything depends on it.

This is my second time reading your article, Jacqueline- but this time I 
appreciate it much much more!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 7, 2017, at 4:09 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> That's a good summary. It's tedious sometimes but essential. The hardest part 
> by far is keeping your mouth shut. If I had a one-way mirror in a 
> sound-proofed room I'd use that. Another method might be to have the user 
> share their screen and turn off your microphone, but screen sharing is not 
> easy on mobile apps.
> 
> On 7/7/17 2:49 PM, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode wrote:
>>> From reading these, it looks like my basic steps are these:
>> 1. Make changes to the app
>> 2. Test for usability myself a dozen times, trying things in different 
>> orders  and in different ways to make it fail
>> 3. Have my testers, which is really about 3 family members, test it to make 
>> it fail
>> No coaching, no hints
>> Directly observe their tests very closely
>> Make notes on any moments of confusion, even if they minor
>> Interview them, asking what they were thinking at each step
>> Adjust the help file and add hints - and test those as well
>> 4. Fix as needed and retest
>> 5. Publish
>> 6. Try to find virgin testers for next time, varying in age and mindset
>> Does that sound about right?
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
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Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
That's a good summary. It's tedious sometimes but essential. The hardest 
part by far is keeping your mouth shut. If I had a one-way mirror in a 
sound-proofed room I'd use that. Another method might be to have the 
user share their screen and turn off your microphone, but screen sharing 
is not easy on mobile apps.


On 7/7/17 2:49 PM, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode wrote:

From reading these, it looks like my basic steps are these:


1. Make changes to the app

2. Test for usability myself a dozen times, trying things in different orders  
and in different ways to make it fail

3. Have my testers, which is really about 3 family members, test it to make it 
fail

No coaching, no hints

Directly observe their tests very closely

Make notes on any moments of confusion, even if they minor

Interview them, asking what they were thinking at each step

Adjust the help file and add hints - and test those as well

4. Fix as needed and retest

5. Publish

6. Try to find virgin testers for next time, varying in age and mindset

Does that sound about right?

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode
>From reading these, it looks like my basic steps are these:

1. Make changes to the app

2. Test for usability myself a dozen times, trying things in different orders  
and in different ways to make it fail

3. Have my testers, which is really about 3 family members, test it to make it 
fail

No coaching, no hints

Directly observe their tests very closely

Make notes on any moments of confusion, even if they minor

Interview them, asking what they were thinking at each step

Adjust the help file and add hints - and test those as well

4. Fix as needed and retest

5. Publish

6. Try to find virgin testers for next time, varying in age and mindset

Does that sound about right?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 7, 2017, at 1:53 PM, jonathandly...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Thank you, Jacqueline 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 7, 2017, at 1:39 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> http://hyperactivesw.com/resources_testing.html
>> 
>> 
>>> On July 7, 2017 6:59:52 AM Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> What steps do you guys follow for accurate testing when you don't have a 
>>> budget for proper official testing procedures?
>> 
>> --
>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
>> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode
Thank you, Jacqueline 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 7, 2017, at 1:39 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> http://hyperactivesw.com/resources_testing.html
> 
> 
>> On July 7, 2017 6:59:52 AM Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> What steps do you guys follow for accurate testing when you don't have a 
>> budget for proper official testing procedures?
> 
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread J. Landman Gay via use-livecode

http://hyperactivesw.com/resources_testing.html


On July 7, 2017 6:59:52 AM Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode 
 wrote:


What steps do you guys follow for accurate testing when you don't have a 
budget for proper official testing procedures?


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



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Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode
Thank you, Devin!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 7, 2017, at 12:01 PM, Devin Asay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Jonathan,
> 
> Here’s a link to my lesson outline when I teach my students about conducting 
> user evaluations of software. It’s still a bit sparse and needs to be fleshed 
> out, but I include some links to a couple of really good articles on 
> evaluation techniques, including one by our very own Jacque Gay.
> 
> http://livecode.byu.edu/userevals/UserEvals.php
> 
> Devin
> 
> On Jul 7, 2017, at 8:29 AM, prothero--- via use-livecode 
> > wrote:
> 
> Jonathon,
> I feel your pain. In my case, I was initiated by my students and very quickly 
> learned how to ask the questions a newbie would ask. I also paid small 
> amounts to graduate students to get their feedback.
> 
> One of my very effective testers is my grandson, my wife, any of my 
> colleagues who might be enticed to use the app. Looking over the shoulder 
> while these folks use the app can be very illuminating.
> 
> In summary:
> 1. Ask friends and relatives first.
> 2. Perhaps there would be volunteers from the live ode users group.
> 3. Hire high school students who might have a tech interest. Look over their 
> shoulders as they use the app and dialog to themselves. Actually watching 
> users is invaluable.
> 
> Good luck,
> Bill P
> 
> 
> William Prothero
> http://es.earthednet.org
> 
> On Jul 7, 2017, at 4:57 AM, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I think my experience of the last two days has taught me something - I have 
> been micro-coaching my friends when they try my app.
> 
> Just the littlest input, like saying "oh, just press the button again to 
> submit" comes so easily and, apparently mucks up testing entirely.
> 
> While the harm will be minimal in this case, I can see where it could be 
> disastrous for a large company.
> 
> What steps do you guys follow for accurate testing when you don't have a 
> budget for proper official testing procedures?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> ___
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> preferences:
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> preferences:
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> 
> Devin Asay
> Director
> Office of Digital Humanities
> Brigham Young University
> 
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Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode
In  another era, Heathkit reportedly used secretaries to test the
instructions to their electronics kits.

They found that they could only use any given secretary three times, as she
would pick up enough doing the first three to overcome errors in future
runs without being stopped by them . . .

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 7:29 AM, prothero--- via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Jonathon,
> I feel your pain. In my case, I was initiated by my students and very
> quickly learned how to ask the questions a newbie would ask. I also paid
> small amounts to graduate students to get their feedback.
>
> One of my very effective testers is my grandson, my wife, any of my
> colleagues who might be enticed to use the app. Looking over the shoulder
> while these folks use the app can be very illuminating.
>
> In summary:
> 1. Ask friends and relatives first.
> 2. Perhaps there would be volunteers from the live ode users group.
> 3. Hire high school students who might have a tech interest. Look over
> their shoulders as they use the app and dialog to themselves. Actually
> watching users is invaluable.
>
> Good luck,
> Bill P
>
>
> William Prothero
> http://es.earthednet.org
>
> > On Jul 7, 2017, at 4:57 AM, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think my experience of the last two days has taught me something - I
> have been micro-coaching my friends when they try my app.
> >
> > Just the littlest input, like saying "oh, just press the button again to
> submit" comes so easily and, apparently mucks up testing entirely.
> >
> > While the harm will be minimal in this case, I can see where it could be
> disastrous for a large company.
> >
> > What steps do you guys follow for accurate testing when you don't have a
> budget for proper official testing procedures?
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
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-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread Devin Asay via use-livecode
Jonathan,

Here’s a link to my lesson outline when I teach my students about conducting 
user evaluations of software. It’s still a bit sparse and needs to be fleshed 
out, but I include some links to a couple of really good articles on evaluation 
techniques, including one by our very own Jacque Gay.

http://livecode.byu.edu/userevals/UserEvals.php

Devin

On Jul 7, 2017, at 8:29 AM, prothero--- via use-livecode 
> wrote:

Jonathon,
I feel your pain. In my case, I was initiated by my students and very quickly 
learned how to ask the questions a newbie would ask. I also paid small amounts 
to graduate students to get their feedback.

One of my very effective testers is my grandson, my wife, any of my colleagues 
who might be enticed to use the app. Looking over the shoulder while these 
folks use the app can be very illuminating.

In summary:
1. Ask friends and relatives first.
2. Perhaps there would be volunteers from the live ode users group.
3. Hire high school students who might have a tech interest. Look over their 
shoulders as they use the app and dialog to themselves. Actually watching users 
is invaluable.

Good luck,
Bill P


William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

On Jul 7, 2017, at 4:57 AM, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode 
 wrote:

I think my experience of the last two days has taught me something - I have 
been micro-coaching my friends when they try my app.

Just the littlest input, like saying "oh, just press the button again to 
submit" comes so easily and, apparently mucks up testing entirely.

While the harm will be minimal in this case, I can see where it could be 
disastrous for a large company.

What steps do you guys follow for accurate testing when you don't have a budget 
for proper official testing procedures?

Sent from my iPhone
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Devin Asay
Director
Office of Digital Humanities
Brigham Young University

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Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread Mark Wieder via use-livecode

On 07/07/2017 07:29 AM, prothero--- via use-livecode wrote:


Actually watching users is invaluable.


Absolutely.
And try to resist the urge to help them along.
And take notes about where they hesitate or stumble.

As a QA engineer, I find that when I'm faced with a new application I 
have about two weeks where I can reasonably find workflow problems. 
During that period I try to write down every nitpicking thing I can find 
and make notes about where I find myself unsure about what comes next, 
etc. After that time I have become so used to the way it's supposed to 
work that it's hard to step outside the box and think like a new user. I 
get into the developer mindset then, and while that's essential for 
finding deeper bugs it means missing some UX issues.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com


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Re: Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread prothero--- via use-livecode
Jonathon,
I feel your pain. In my case, I was initiated by my students and very quickly 
learned how to ask the questions a newbie would ask. I also paid small amounts 
to graduate students to get their feedback.

One of my very effective testers is my grandson, my wife, any of my colleagues 
who might be enticed to use the app. Looking over the shoulder while these 
folks use the app can be very illuminating. 

In summary:
1. Ask friends and relatives first.
2. Perhaps there would be volunteers from the live ode users group.
3. Hire high school students who might have a tech interest. Look over their 
shoulders as they use the app and dialog to themselves. Actually watching users 
is invaluable.

Good luck,
Bill P


William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

> On Jul 7, 2017, at 4:57 AM, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I think my experience of the last two days has taught me something - I have 
> been micro-coaching my friends when they try my app.
> 
> Just the littlest input, like saying "oh, just press the button again to 
> submit" comes so easily and, apparently mucks up testing entirely.
> 
> While the harm will be minimal in this case, I can see where it could be 
> disastrous for a large company.
> 
> What steps do you guys follow for accurate testing when you don't have a 
> budget for proper official testing procedures?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
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Biased testing and micro-coaching

2017-07-07 Thread Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode
I think my experience of the last two days has taught me something - I have 
been micro-coaching my friends when they try my app.

Just the littlest input, like saying "oh, just press the button again to 
submit" comes so easily and, apparently mucks up testing entirely.

While the harm will be minimal in this case, I can see where it could be 
disastrous for a large company.

What steps do you guys follow for accurate testing when you don't have a budget 
for proper official testing procedures?

Sent from my iPhone
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