Re: Canvas Limited to 32767

2020-10-07 Thread Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
We can just send a man to mars. Same deal. :-)

Bob S


On Oct 6, 2020, at 6:08 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

So "just" changing from 32k to 64k isn't as easy as putting the word "just" in 
front of it might make it seem. :)

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Re: Canvas Limited to 32767

2020-10-06 Thread Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
I'm all for more freedom, but the RAM requirements make any practical 
use of extended coordinates a less trivial problem.


Most programs handle this by paging. It may look like one contiguous 
region on screen, but as you're scrolling it's dumping chunks that fall 
out of view and rendering chunks coming into view, so the total viewable 
space is well within practical memory limits.


The DataGrid shows one example of how to virtualize a scrollbar, using a 
non-scrolling group with a separate scrollbar, and some clever coding to 
make them work in sync.


With that, you can do like other programmers do, paging in an out the 
parts you need when you need them. Only we get to do it in script.


If done in the engine it's the same algo, which AFAIK is very different 
from how groups are buffered now.


So "just" changing from 32k to 64k isn't as easy as putting the word 
"just" in front of it might make it seem. :)  It would require the 
engine team to write a very different buffering algo, a lot of extra 
work for a few edge cases not handled by what's in place now.


No doubt the team could do it, but I don't think it would be simple.

And given the low ROI relative to other priorities, if it went into the 
work queue I wouldn't expect to see it for a long time.


Maybe Mark Waddingham can chime in if I'm overestimating the difficulty, 
but I suspect scripting you own paging system with a virtualized 
scrollbar is something you could do yourself in a fraction of the time 
it would take to wait for it from the engine team.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems



Ralph DiMola wrote:


Richard,

This design was done for one not to involve a lot of coding (App was free
development but we get a cut of each sale and it has worked out well for
us). Also there could be a reason to see the entire list but of course there
are other ways to do this as not to hit the limit. As far as device memory
is concerned I don't want to go to 2^31 but I am missing the cut by a couple
thousand pixels. If we had 2^31 it would be up to the developer to keep the
performance under control rather than apps breaking for 2 pixels over the
limit.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2020 2:50 PM
To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Cc: Richard Gaskin
Subject: Re: Canvas Limited to 32767

Glad it's not the funky mobile field workaround.  That's such a horrible
experience for developers that even the act of documenting it should have
been a red flag to go back and refine the field buffering for the few cases
where that put-it-in-a-group recommendation is actually needed.

In your case, you have a huuge canvas, with users expected to scroll a
region about 32 feet.  That's a lot of scrolling.

So in addition to the memory hit of buffering such a large region (32767
* 32767 * 4 + whatever other overhead comes into play with buffering), in
most layouts it would be a usability impairment to ask users to keep
scrolling that much.

So maybe the team could switch the address from 32 to 64, but it still leave
us with the question:

- Would a user have that much RAM?

- Would the user be able to use such a large canvas without acquiring
   RSI? ;)

I don't know your layout, but I do know you, and you're not the type to make
things hard for users, so I'm assuming there's something about this
uncommonly-large scrolling that fits well with the app's requirements.

But what we do know is no monitor can show it all, so the content is already
effectively paged into view as-needed.

Could the content paging be provided through some other UI? For example, if
those controls fit into logical groupings, might different sets of them be
placed into separate physical groups, perhaps accessed via tabs or a list?

If it's truly necessary to have one vast plane to hold everything, could you
handle paging internally while still providing the appearance of a
contiguous group, similar to how the DataGrid does it?

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems



Ralph DiMola wrote:
 > Desktop and mobile. It's a scrolling group with many sub-groups each
 > with 1 or more fields. Sometimes the height of the main group > 32767.
 >
 > It's the result of a proximity search and in dense areas users are
 > getting hosed by this limit. Customer is screaming (but don't they
 > always).
 >
 > Ralph DiMola
 > IT Director


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On 
Behalf

Of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode

Ralph DiMola wrote:

 > I just ran head first into this. Could someone explain why other than 
   > moving from an int16 to an int32 this is such a challenge? This 
should  > have been addressed during the refactoring of the engine.


Is 

RE: Canvas Limited to 32767

2020-10-06 Thread Ralph DiMola via use-livecode
Richard,

This design was done for one not to involve a lot of coding (App was free
development but we get a cut of each sale and it has worked out well for
us). Also there could be a reason to see the entire list but of course there
are other ways to do this as not to hit the limit. As far as device memory
is concerned I don't want to go to 2^31 but I am missing the cut by a couple
thousand pixels. If we had 2^31 it would be up to the developer to keep the
performance under control rather than apps breaking for 2 pixels over the
limit.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2020 2:50 PM
To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Cc: Richard Gaskin
Subject: Re: Canvas Limited to 32767

Glad it's not the funky mobile field workaround.  That's such a horrible
experience for developers that even the act of documenting it should have
been a red flag to go back and refine the field buffering for the few cases
where that put-it-in-a-group recommendation is actually needed.

In your case, you have a huuge canvas, with users expected to scroll a
region about 32 feet.  That's a lot of scrolling.

So in addition to the memory hit of buffering such a large region (32767
* 32767 * 4 + whatever other overhead comes into play with buffering), in
most layouts it would be a usability impairment to ask users to keep
scrolling that much.

So maybe the team could switch the address from 32 to 64, but it still leave
us with the question:

- Would a user have that much RAM?

- Would the user be able to use such a large canvas without acquiring
   RSI? ;)

I don't know your layout, but I do know you, and you're not the type to make
things hard for users, so I'm assuming there's something about this
uncommonly-large scrolling that fits well with the app's requirements.

But what we do know is no monitor can show it all, so the content is already
effectively paged into view as-needed.

Could the content paging be provided through some other UI? For example, if
those controls fit into logical groupings, might different sets of them be
placed into separate physical groups, perhaps accessed via tabs or a list?

If it's truly necessary to have one vast plane to hold everything, could you
handle paging internally while still providing the appearance of a
contiguous group, similar to how the DataGrid does it?

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems



Ralph DiMola wrote:
 > Desktop and mobile. It's a scrolling group with many sub-groups each
 > with 1 or more fields. Sometimes the height of the main group > 32767.
 >
 > It's the result of a proximity search and in dense areas users are
 > getting hosed by this limit. Customer is screaming (but don't they
 > always).
 >
 > Ralph DiMola
 > IT Director


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On 
Behalf
Of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode

Ralph DiMola wrote:

 > I just ran head first into this. Could someone explain why other than 
   > moving from an int16 to an int32 this is such a challenge? This 
should  > have been addressed during the refactoring of the engine.

Is this for the weird recommended mobile workaround of putting a text 
field into a group just to have it scroll, or something else?

--
   Richard Gaskin
   Fourth World Systems


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RE: Canvas Limited to 32767

2020-10-06 Thread Ralph DiMola via use-livecode
Paul,

I agree the it seems that 32767 would be more than enough but alas reality
intrudes. On desktop you can easily get to the bottom and on mobile a few
flicks will get you to the bottom. I use the same code(LC server) for the
http html version and there is no problem there when the search returns an
obscene number of results.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Paul Dupuis via use-livecode
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2020 2:39 PM
To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Cc: Paul Dupuis
Subject: Re: Canvas Limited to 32767

You would think with 32K px at 72px/inch being like 450 inches that the 32K
limit would not be an issue, but I have run into it as well

I have written a custom graph (like a bar graph for example sake) that is
generally fine with most customer data. However, on one customer data set it
started blowing up. It turns out that one of the bars was "huge" 
(an the order of 400k px) at the zoom level where they could see the details
in the remaining bars. So, in this case the researchers wanted to "zoom" in
on noise in a larger data set, causing that larger data to become huge in a
graph.

And yes, you can code in bounds limits and attaching labels to indicate a
bar is out of bound or exceeds display area, etc., but I do agree that for a
number of applications having a large drawing area would be a big
improvement.


On 10/6/2020 2:28 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
> Desktop and mobile. It's a scrolling group with many sub-groups each 
> with 1 or more fields. Sometimes the height of the main group > 32767.
>
> It's the result of a proximity search and in dense areas users are 
> getting hosed by this limit. Customer is screaming (but don't they
always).
>
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdim...@evergreeninfo.net
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On 
> Behalf Of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2020 2:01 PM
> To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Cc: Richard Gaskin
> Subject: Re: Canvas Limited to 32767
>
> Ralph DiMola wrote:
>
>   > I just ran head first into this. Could someone explain why other 
> than  > moving from an int16 to an int32 this is such a challenge? 
> This should  > have been addressed during the refactoring of the engine.
>
> Is this for the weird recommended mobile workaround of putting a text 
> field into a group just to have it scroll, or something else?
>
> --
>Richard Gaskin
>Fourth World Systems
>Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>
>ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
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> subscription
> preferences:
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Re: Canvas Limited to 32767

2020-10-06 Thread Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
Glad it's not the funky mobile field workaround.  That's such a horrible 
experience for developers that even the act of documenting it should 
have been a red flag to go back and refine the field buffering for the 
few cases where that put-it-in-a-group recommendation is actually needed.


In your case, you have a huuge canvas, with users expected to scroll 
a region about 32 feet.  That's a lot of scrolling.


So in addition to the memory hit of buffering such a large region (32767 
* 32767 * 4 + whatever other overhead comes into play with buffering), 
in most layouts it would be a usability impairment to ask users to keep 
scrolling that much.


So maybe the team could switch the address from 32 to 64, but it still 
leave us with the question:


- Would a user have that much RAM?

- Would the user be able to use such a large canvas without acquiring
  RSI? ;)

I don't know your layout, but I do know you, and you're not the type to 
make things hard for users, so I'm assuming there's something about this 
uncommonly-large scrolling that fits well with the app's requirements.


But what we do know is no monitor can show it all, so the content is 
already effectively paged into view as-needed.


Could the content paging be provided through some other UI? For example, 
if those controls fit into logical groupings, might different sets of 
them be placed into separate physical groups, perhaps accessed via tabs 
or a list?


If it's truly necessary to have one vast plane to hold everything, could 
you handle paging internally while still providing the appearance of a 
contiguous group, similar to how the DataGrid does it?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems



Ralph DiMola wrote:
> Desktop and mobile. It's a scrolling group with many sub-groups each
> with 1 or more fields. Sometimes the height of the main group > 32767.
>
> It's the result of a proximity search and in dense areas users are
> getting hosed by this limit. Customer is screaming (but don't they
> always).
>
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On 
Behalf

Of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode

Ralph DiMola wrote:

> I just ran head first into this. Could someone explain why other than 
  > moving from an int16 to an int32 this is such a challenge? This 
should  > have been addressed during the refactoring of the engine.


Is this for the weird recommended mobile workaround of putting a text 
field into a group just to have it scroll, or something else?


--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems


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Re: Canvas Limited to 32767

2020-10-06 Thread Paul Dupuis via use-livecode
You would think with 32K px at 72px/inch being like 450 inches that the 
32K limit would not be an issue, but I have run into it as well


I have written a custom graph (like a bar graph for example sake) that 
is generally fine with most customer data. However, on one customer data 
set it started blowing up. It turns out that one of the bars was "huge" 
(an the order of 400k px) at the zoom level where they could see the 
details in the remaining bars. So, in this case the researchers wanted 
to "zoom" in on noise in a larger data set, causing that larger data to 
become huge in a graph.


And yes, you can code in bounds limits and attaching labels to indicate 
a bar is out of bound or exceeds display area, etc., but I do agree that 
for a number of applications having a large drawing area would be a big 
improvement.



On 10/6/2020 2:28 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:

Desktop and mobile. It's a scrolling group with many sub-groups each with 1
or more fields. Sometimes the height of the main group > 32767.

It's the result of a proximity search and in dense areas users are getting
hosed by this limit. Customer is screaming (but don't they always).

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2020 2:01 PM
To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Cc: Richard Gaskin
Subject: Re: Canvas Limited to 32767

Ralph DiMola wrote:

  > I just ran head first into this. Could someone explain why other than  >
moving from an int16 to an int32 this is such a challenge? This should  >
have been addressed during the refactoring of the engine.

Is this for the weird recommended mobile workaround of putting a text field
into a group just to have it scroll, or something else?

--
   Richard Gaskin
   Fourth World Systems
   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
   
   ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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RE: Canvas Limited to 32767

2020-10-06 Thread Ralph DiMola via use-livecode
Desktop and mobile. It's a scrolling group with many sub-groups each with 1
or more fields. Sometimes the height of the main group > 32767.

It's the result of a proximity search and in dense areas users are getting
hosed by this limit. Customer is screaming (but don't they always).

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2020 2:01 PM
To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Cc: Richard Gaskin
Subject: Re: Canvas Limited to 32767

Ralph DiMola wrote:

 > I just ran head first into this. Could someone explain why other than  >
moving from an int16 to an int32 this is such a challenge? This should  >
have been addressed during the refactoring of the engine.

Is this for the weird recommended mobile workaround of putting a text field
into a group just to have it scroll, or something else?

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  
  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Canvas Limited to 32767

2020-10-06 Thread Richard Gaskin via use-livecode

Ralph DiMola wrote:

> I just ran head first into this. Could someone explain why other than
> moving from an int16 to an int32 this is such a challenge? This should
> have been addressed during the refactoring of the engine.

Is this for the weird recommended mobile workaround of putting a text 
field into a group just to have it scroll, or something else?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Canvas Limited to 32767

2020-10-06 Thread Ralph DiMola via use-livecode
I just ran head first into this. Could someone explain why other than moving 
from an int16 to an int32 this is such a challenge? This should have been 
addressed during the refactoring of the engine.

Inquiring minds want to know. Thanks for any info on this. Now I have some 
refactoring to do...

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net


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