subject:"Catalina"


Sean Cole wrote:

> I've added updates to this bug relating to the script editor issues
> and crashes
>
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22389

Thank you, Sean.  I'm signed onto the report, and will add any notes I 
can if I see this on my Mac.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

2020-03-12 Thread Mark Wieder via use-livecode


On 3/12/20 9:12 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:

I was able to reproduce the issue (continually) so I did another screen
recording. It's either the auto-type suggestion thing or it's the error
bullet it puts on the numbers (which would then tie up with the breakpoint
and other SE errors). Interesting!


Sean-

That's awesome! A repeatable recipe.
I notice that the error indicator moves between lines 3356 and 3357, as 
it should, as you type, finally ending up at line 3358 at the hang. So 
with that in mind...


Did you press return after typing "then" or did the hang happen as soon 
as you typed that word?

Does the hang only happen if you have the Breakpoints tab selected?
How about if you selected the Errors tab instead?
You're using 9.5.1 Indy and I see you have the Autocomplete option 
enabled... do you have the Control Structure Completion option enabled 
as well?


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

2020-03-12 Thread Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode

I was able to reproduce the issue (continually) so I did another screen
recording. It's either the auto-type suggestion thing or it's the error
bullet it puts on the numbers (which would then tie up with the breakpoint
and other SE errors). Interesting!

Sean

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 03:47, Sean Cole (Pi)  wrote:

> I've added updates to this bug relating to the script editor issues and
> crashes
>
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22389
>
>
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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

2020-03-12 Thread Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode

I've added updates to this bug relating to the script editor issues and
crashes

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22389
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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

2020-03-12 Thread J. Landman Gay via use-livecode

I see now. I confess that I stopped reading the subject itself after a 
while when the thread took off on a tangent. You make a valid point. LC 
actually did what you describe when 64-bit started to be required on OS X. 
They released a rapid update and made the deadline but it was close. I 
heard they really had to scramble, but they knew how important it was. 
Apparently Apple doesn't give much advance notice to third-party IDE 
developers. If you're working in Xcode these changes are less intrusive.


I haven't yet installed Catalina, but I submitted an app to the App Store 
last week built with Xcode 11.1 and LC 9.6dp2, and it ran on iOS 13. It was 
not rejected for that reason (though I did screw up on something else.) 
Unless something has changed since then, I think you can proceed. LC has 
always met the final deadlines for these things and I'm sure they'll do it 
again.


But I agree that a longer lead time would ease everyone's mind. Is Xcode 
11.3 or iOS 13.3 required soon? I thought we still had a month or more left.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On March 12, 2020 8:54:11 PM Pi Digital via use-livecode 
 wrote:


The clue is in the subject heading, Jacque. At least, I thought it was 
plain enough. The script editor and HTML issues I mentioned were just ‘mind 
wind’ in the process of bemoaning the speed of uptake to current OS and 
Xcode support.


Here’s the big issue. Essential updates that all users are dependent on, 
like OS support, are held off from release while other minor updates are 
worked on and refined. I would venture to suggest that a new policy for 
these heavy releases to come quicker in a x.x.x release while the other 
combination/collection of fixes and features be sent out in an x.x release. 
This would then make sure critical errors/features (which I would say OS 
support fits into) are addressed and released quicker while not being held 
off at the mercy of other fixes waiting in the wings.


Using this method would make it easier on the hub too. Anyone working on 
non critical updates can develop to the sub major release (ie. 9.7) while 
other more critical fixes can be applied to minor (not minor in urgency) 
releases (ie. 9.6.24). These can then have just one or three fixes that 
then get fed upstream into the 9.7 develop branch to be then checked 
against any other features being added to it.


Does that make sense?

Sean Cole
Pi Digital
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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

2020-03-12 Thread Pi Digital via use-livecode

The clue is in the subject heading, Jacque. At least, I thought it was plain 
enough. The script editor and HTML issues I mentioned were just ‘mind wind’ in 
the process of bemoaning the speed of uptake to current OS and Xcode support.

Here’s the big issue. Essential updates that all users are dependent on, like 
OS support, are held off from release while other minor updates are worked on 
and refined. I would venture to suggest that a new policy for these heavy 
releases to come quicker in a x.x.x release while the other 
combination/collection of fixes and features be sent out in an x.x release. 
This would then make sure critical errors/features (which I would say OS 
support fits into) are addressed and released quicker while not being held off 
at the mercy of other fixes waiting in the wings. 

Using this method would make it easier on the hub too. Anyone working on non 
critical updates can develop to the sub major release (ie. 9.7) while other 
more critical fixes can be applied to minor (not minor in urgency) releases 
(ie. 9.6.24). These can then have just one or three fixes that then get fed 
upstream into the 9.7 develop branch to be then checked against any other 
features being added to it. 

Does that make sense? 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital
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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

2020-03-12 Thread J. Landman Gay via use-livecode


This one was okay. :) You sound a little more relaxed.

I frequently have the same frustrations as you do, but knowing a little 
about the team helps moderate my posts. I think this long thread could have 
been shorter if you had just said what roadblocks in particular are 
preventing you from completing the work. I do understand you're having 
issues with the script editor, but what features exactly do you need that 
don't exist? (I hope I didn't miss something.)


When I felt completely blocked because I couldn't find a way to scroll to 
metadata in a field, several people jumped in to help me and Mark 
Waddingham even provided a complete handler. I would have lost the job 
without that. I'm grateful.


So maybe we can help you too. Throw out a challenge.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On March 12, 2020 6:54:28 PM Pi Digital via use-livecode 
 wrote:



Hi all

Thank you for all your kind words. Sorry, you said ‘no’ sarcasm. Oops. My bad.

I had posted this originally to the dev-livecode list but I thought 
(accurately) I wouldn’t get a reponse from that. I’m sooo sorry (oops, I 
did it again) that this is viewed potentially by newbies. Although hiding 
the truth (‘forever’) is not a good policy either. Maybe one of them will 
notice that it doesn’t support the latest OSs/Xcode/Android. [Sharp inhale] 
Suppose they find out! Oh no!!


I’ve been looking around but I can’t find a rant-livecode forum or the 
use-livecodeAtYourPeril forum or even a 
tryToUse-LiveCodeButEndUpUsingHeapsOfJavascriptAndPHPWorkaroundsInstead 
forum. Or even the dontUse-LiveCodeBecauseItsCrashedAgain forum.


I’ve been thinking for a while whilst reading the various support and 
‘spanking’ messages what I might write. But I worked out that the only 
‘nice’ thing would be to say nothing (as my dear grandma always said I 
should). But at some point something has to be said.


I currently have a client breathing heavily behind me because I can’t 
supply what they need. And by now I should be able to. My competitors, 
they’re new suppliers, are able to. I would be trying to fix the LC issues 
with HTML deployment myself if I wasn’t so bogged down with the workarounds 
on top of workarounds that are so messing with my head. I’ve been working 
18hr days for months. So forgive me for asking a legitimate question (ok, 
in mild rant form) on a forum which is the ONLY place I can vent to others 
who USE-LIVECODE!! Name me one other place where Only veteran users can go 
and vent with like minded pro users of LC and I’m there! I someone 
created one I guarantee it would get tonnes more use than this one albeit 
unseen by the LC team.


Which brings me to the final point (‘phew’ I hear you say!). Someone asked 
what I thought I would get from posting it here. Well, as someone else 
pointed out, the likes of the CTO do poke there heads this way every now 
and then. Interestingly today, maybe by coincidence, the amount of 
git-pulls have been massive in comparison to the last three months. 
Hopefully this means they are indeed gearing up to release a fixed 9.6GM or 
RC for us to work with on Friday (their preferred release day 
historically). I’d like to think (for my own satisfaction only) that my OP 
pushed towards it but would be just as ‘happy’(ish) if they were already 
about to. Either way, my original point of posting was to get a heads up 
and vent a teeny-tiny amount of my current frustration at this current time 
which is just a part of the never ending circle of futility I find myself in.


Now, ‘that’ up there is what you call a rant :) I felt ill before typing 
this but feel much better now. Thank you all again.


I’ve re-read this to be sure I wasn’t abusive or saying anything unfair or 
unqualified. Sarcastic, yes, but not of the hurtful kind. I’m trying to 
make light of it despite the mild-affronts and my warm neck. There was no 
Attack on LC. It was a question of Why the wait and How do I explain to my 
soon to be lost client and pay packet to my mortgage lenders. I hope you 
all now understand.


Sean Cole
Pi


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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

Pi Digital wrote:

> I had posted this originally to the dev-livecode list but I thought
> (accurately) I wouldn’t get a reponse from that.

Yep, the dev list has been more or less retired since LC went open 
source. I'm not sure why it's still even up, except that a few people 
wanted it when they last asked if it should remain. So it's running, but 
few read it.  This list is a good choice.

> I currently have a client breathing heavily behind me because I can’t
> supply what they need. And by now I should be able to. My competitors,
> they’re new suppliers, are able to.

Happens all the time. I've formed relationships with others employing 
complimentary skills and tooling for that purpose, bringing their 
specialties on board for things outside of my core services.

And sometimes the project as a whole is sufficiently outside of what I 
do that I just refer the client to another qualified professional.

No one does everything.  Relationships bridge the gaps the 
cross-training or interest haven't yet filled.

It's a big world, and software is eating it. Lots of opportunity for 
nearly any specialty or mix of specialties.

> I would be trying to fix the LC issues with HTML deployment myself
> if I wasn’t so bogged down with the workarounds on top of workarounds
> that are so messing with my head.

When LC's HTML export was first announced, I read up on Emscripten and 
how it works.  Impressive for certain things, but when the result is 
running a scripting language inside of a canvas object interpreted by 
another scripting language, I figured I'd stick with brushing up my JS.

I know at least one developer who has been using it profitably for a 
very specialized service. I'm glad for him.  But my own needs are in a 
different field, with a different market, and working closer to the 
browser engine is a better fit for my own work.

Similarly, I used to use LC for systems administration, until I learned 
bash.  I can get the work done with LC, but I can get it done more 
quickly with the language designed specifically for that niche.

LC's sweet spot is xplat desktop GUIs, where it's unbeatable.  It's a 
good contender for mobile apps, and as a server tool*. Personally, I 
don't even think about HTML export, even though I helped fund the 
project to see whee it might go.

And even though I spend some time in JS and bash, much of that work has 
at least some LC mixed in along the way.  There's always some GUI tool, 
or some text processing for which awk feels awkward.  Lots of choices, 
combined and recombined as needed.

LC is nice, but it's not every language.  There are hundreds, with more 
each year, because each is contributing a unique mix of strengths the 
others don't have.

Back in the day I used to even write object store systems in LC (think 
MondgoDB scaled down for shared-hosting CGI).  Not bad, and on two 
projects I still use it, but for new work I'm more inclined spin up a 
VPS and install Mongo or Couch.

Same with server management.  I started down the DIY road with an 
LC-based system and some clever (if I do say so myself ) use of the 
bash "expect" program.  Fun and all, but ultimately a lot of work to 
handle every edge case or new capability.  And all the while Ansible is 
sitting there waiting to be used by those who need a daemonless option, 
or go old-school with a few bash scripts.

You know how much I enjoy and value LiveCode.  But I don't use it for 
everything.  I use it where it's the best choice for the task at hand.

* RE server use: This is one area where I feel LiveCode's potential has 
yet to be fully realized by the world. Consider Ruby or Python: fine 
languages, but rarely used as CGIs before Rails and Django.  Now Ruby on 
Rails has grown to such an audience that it's almost single-handedly 
justified returning to CGI in many shops. LiveCode performs roughly on 
par with both of them, but with chunk expressions - most of what we need 
to do on servers is text manipulation, and for that LC rocks!

Our community is blessed with Ralf Bitter's tremendously excellent 
revIgniter framework.  Modeled on WebIgniter, it's an excellent toolkit 
for a great many tasks.

But the PHP world has more than one framework.  Same with Python.

I'd like to believe that as we build out great server apps with LC, out 
of this activity will emerge new and useful libraries, tools, and 
frameworks that can help the rest of the world come to appreciate the 
benefits of scripting in LiveCode.

Same with streaming desktop apps, so easy in LC, so valuable to users, 
so underutilized...

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web

 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

2020-03-12 Thread Pi Digital via use-livecode

No offence taken at all, Matthias. I felt you hit ‘the nail’ on the head, not 
me. ;)

I do regret bringing up my last ‘incident’ at all. It’s a bit of a splinter 
that just won’t go away for me and hard not to be reminded of far to often when 
I face the near same issues of failure I did back then. 

But thank you (not sarcasm this time) for looking out for me. 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Productions Ltd


eMail Ts & Cs


> On 12 Mar 2020, at 23:18, matthias rebbe via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>>> Am 13.03.2020 um 00:09 schrieb hh via use-livecode 
>>> :
>>> 
>>> Matthias wrote:
>>> I did NOT refer to any personal problems. So please do not impute
>>> such an intention to me.
>> 
>> Sorry Matthias, I obviously misinterpreted "your problems last year".
>> Hopefully Sean Cole didn't also misinterpret this.
>> 
> I hope so too. 
> 
> As you might know i am native German who had English only in school (30 years 
> ago). Although i am trying my best to express my thoughts correctly without 
> being misunderstood, it sometimes might sound other than it was intended.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

2020-03-12 Thread Pi Digital via use-livecode

Hi all

Thank you for all your kind words. Sorry, you said ‘no’ sarcasm. Oops. My bad. 

I had posted this originally to the dev-livecode list but I thought 
(accurately) I wouldn’t get a reponse from that. I’m sooo sorry (oops, I did it 
again) that this is viewed potentially by newbies. Although hiding the truth 
(‘forever’) is not a good policy either. Maybe one of them will notice that it 
doesn’t support the latest OSs/Xcode/Android. [Sharp inhale] Suppose they find 
out! Oh no!!

I’ve been looking around but I can’t find a rant-livecode forum or the 
use-livecodeAtYourPeril forum or even a 
tryToUse-LiveCodeButEndUpUsingHeapsOfJavascriptAndPHPWorkaroundsInstead forum. 
Or even the dontUse-LiveCodeBecauseItsCrashedAgain forum. 

I’ve been thinking for a while whilst reading the various support and 
‘spanking’ messages what I might write. But I worked out that the only ‘nice’ 
thing would be to say nothing (as my dear grandma always said I should). But at 
some point something has to be said. 

I currently have a client breathing heavily behind me because I can’t supply 
what they need. And by now I should be able to. My competitors, they’re new 
suppliers, are able to. I would be trying to fix the LC issues with HTML 
deployment myself if I wasn’t so bogged down with the workarounds on top of 
workarounds that are so messing with my head. I’ve been working 18hr days for 
months. So forgive me for asking a legitimate question (ok, in mild rant form) 
on a forum which is the ONLY place I can vent to others who USE-LIVECODE!! Name 
me one other place where Only veteran users can go and vent with like minded 
pro users of LC and I’m there! I someone created one I guarantee it would 
get tonnes more use than this one albeit unseen by the LC team. 

Which brings me to the final point (‘phew’ I hear you say!). Someone asked what 
I thought I would get from posting it here. Well, as someone else pointed out, 
the likes of the CTO do poke there heads this way every now and then. 
Interestingly today, maybe by coincidence, the amount of git-pulls have been 
massive in comparison to the last three months. Hopefully this means they are 
indeed gearing up to release a fixed 9.6GM or RC for us to work with on Friday 
(their preferred release day historically). I’d like to think (for my own 
satisfaction only) that my OP pushed towards it but would be just as 
‘happy’(ish) if they were already about to. Either way, my original point of 
posting was to get a heads up and vent a teeny-tiny amount of my current 
frustration at this current time which is just a part of the never ending 
circle of futility I find myself in. 

 Now, ‘that’ up there is what you call a rant :) I felt ill before typing this 
but feel much better now. Thank you all again.

I’ve re-read this to be sure I wasn’t abusive or saying anything unfair or 
unqualified. Sarcastic, yes, but not of the hurtful kind. I’m trying to make 
light of it despite the mild-affronts and my warm neck. There was no Attack on 
LC. It was a question of Why the wait and How do I explain to my soon to be 
lost client and pay packet to my mortgage lenders. I hope you all now 
understand. 

Sean Cole
Pi


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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???


Not just dropped APIs. 
It starts already with Apple deciding if the functionality of an iOS App is 
worth to be approved for the Appstore or not. 
I had created 3 apps for a customer which were not accepted by Apple by the 
"lack" of functionality. At least that was the reason they told us, although we 
could proof that there were other similar apps in the store with less 
functionality. Some of them were even approved later than our apps were 
submitted.
The good thing was that i get paid anyway because the complete design and 
functionality was described by the customer in specification sheets. So i was 
not responsible for the rejection of the apps.

It´s always a risk to develop iOS apps. You´ll never know if they get accepted 
or not. 
An other risk is that every new iOS release might break your existing app in 
the iOS app store.
 
> 
> Perhaps a good approach is to include in any contract for software products 
> or development the disclaimer that if the customer requests support for a 3rd 
> party API, that functionality and support for that API is restricted to the 
> terms of the 3rd party. Not sure how to word that legally. 
> 
That´s a good idea. So the developer is not responsible if there are changes to 
the 3rd party API  and thereby the functionality of the program is disturbed or 
impaired. 
> Bob S






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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???




> Am 13.03.2020 um 00:09 schrieb hh via use-livecode 
> :
> 
>> Matthias wrote:
>> I did NOT refer to any personal problems. So please do not impute
>> such an intention to me.
> 
> Sorry Matthias, I obviously misinterpreted "your problems last year".
> Hopefully Sean Cole didn't also misinterpret this.
> 
I hope so too. 

As you might know i am native German who had English only in school (30 years 
ago). Although i am trying my best to express my thoughts correctly without 
being misunderstood, it sometimes might sound other than it was intended.



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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

I hesitate to opine, but there's so much here. I think anytime a product is 
dependent on a Google API, long term support is uncertain. For example, 
recently Google dropped support for Google Docs. The copier companies have 
written plugins to their copiers SPECIFICALLY to work with Google Docs. So 
Toshiba, Konica, Canon, Ricoh... all sold commercial products to support an API 
that CUSTOMERS ASKED FOR, and now it's gone. Poof. Bang. 

Their recourse? Nil. Nada. See, Google very wisely advised everyone that they 
reserved the right to discontinue any or all of their API services at their own 
discretion, so no one has any recourse. Not the end user, not the hardware 
vendor. 

This begs the question, what recourse can any of us expect when we support a 
3rd party API from ANYONE, including one of our own? Apple and Google can 
change their terms of service or APIs anytime they want, and can pull the rug 
out from under our commercial products and we are helpless. Oracle can push out 
a critical update to their SQL server that sqlYoga can't handle, and Trevor can 
say, "Yeah, no not going to update that product because I've discontinued 
supporting it." I'd be forced to completely refactor what is now a fairly 
complex app. This is the nature of software development in this pervasively 
connected world of ours. 

Perhaps a good approach is to include in any contract for software products or 
development the disclaimer that if the customer requests support for a 3rd 
party API, that functionality and support for that API is restricted to the 
terms of the 3rd party. Not sure how to word that legally. 

Bob S

> On Mar 12, 2020, at 15:31 , matthias rebbe via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Herman, the problems i referred to were the problems he had  with a library 
> that did not work anymore after Google changed something and he was in urgent 
> need of a fix, which was not possible because Monte were at sleep at the time 
> of Sean´s posting and therefore he lost an important customer.

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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

> Matthias wrote:
> I did NOT refer to any personal problems. So please do not impute
> such an intention to me.

Sorry Matthias, I obviously misinterpreted "your problems last year".
Hopefully Sean Cole didn't also misinterpret this.

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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???


> Am 12.03.2020 um 23:15 schrieb hh via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> 

> What I woud like to see is that Sean Cole(pi digital) can write here his
> opinion without being attacked just for writing that: No content-based
> attack, but using the most nasty kind of attack, using (supposed) personal
> problems ("your problems last year").
> While content-based attacks would have been OK for me.
> 
Herman, the problems i referred to were the problems he had  with a library 
that did not work anymore after Google changed something and he was in urgent 
need of a fix, which was not possible because Monte were at sleep at the time 
of Sean´s posting and therefore he lost an important customer.

I did NOT refer to any personal problems. So please do not impute such an 
intention to me.

> If this is not possible, I'll better leave this list.
> 
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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

> Richard G. wrote at Mike K.:
> The rest of us are having conversations with none other than the lead 
> engineer, right here on this list this morning.

Yes the CTO was in the last two weeks probably more often here than in the
last two years before that two weeks. But he's now more often searching
for excuses than for real help, because there is no real progress with LCS
(except removing 9.5 bugs), LCB and HTML5.

> Help me understand: what would you like to see?

What I woud like to see is that Sean Cole(pi digital) can write here his
opinion without being attacked just for writing that: No content-based
attack, but using the most nasty kind of attack, using (supposed) personal
problems ("your problems last year").
While content-based attacks would have been OK for me.

If this is not possible, I'll better leave this list.

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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

2020-03-12 Thread Mike Kerner via use-livecode

it really has been, by multiple people, over multiple years.  i'm not going
to repeat myself, or them.
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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

Mike Kerner wrote:

> there is a difference between complaining and flameing
> badgering over the status of qr's shouldn't be necessary.  badgering
> over comms shouldn't be necessary.

Agreed, but there have been two posts with abstractions about 
"communications" and neither has expressed what exactly it is they're 
looking for.

The rest of us are having conversations with none other than the lead 
engineer, right here on this list this morning.

Help me understand: what would you like to see?

--
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 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web

 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

2020-03-12 Thread Mike Kerner via use-livecode

i'm kind-of annoyed.  i have spent enough of my company's funds and my
personal time doing lc sessions for beginners.  the two years before the lc
global sessions, we had a similar level of communication from hq as we do
now.
there is a difference between complaining and flameing
badgering over the status of qr's shouldn't be necessary.  badgering over
comms shouldn't be necessary.  badgering over roadmaps shouldn't be
necessary
why am i putting out rfq's, trying to find alternatives to lc?
and yes, the internet doesn't forget.  perhaps lc should take that to
heart.  we should all take that to heart with our customers.

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 3:36 PM prothero--- via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Well said, Jacqueline!
> Bill
>
> William A. Prothero
> Santa Barbara, CA. 93105
> http://earthlearningsolutions.org/
>
> > On Mar 12, 2020, at 11:58 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 3/12/20 12:39 PM, hh via use-livecode wrote:
> >> The uselist is not a LC-praising list. As long as we have the freedom
> of speech
> >> everybody can say whether he is contented with LC or not. And nothing
> written does
> >> change anything*with LC*, also not your positive-only (and excellent)
> posts ...
> >
> > Tone is important. There is difference whether the post is a discussion
> of a problem, or a rant against the team and the company. Discussions are
> useful and productive. A rant that attacks the dedicated people who are
> doing their best for us can cause some of us to become defensive.
> >
> > For myself, it feels like an attack on my friends. I know these people,
> how hard they work, and how much they want LC to succeed. I also know that
> they are deluged with work, they need to choose their priorities carefully,
> and they care very much. To date, they have met every requirement that the
> shifting sands at Apple and Google have thrown at them. They need to drop
> everything else to meet those deadlines, but they do it. Of course, that
> puts them behind on other things.
> >
> > These list posts go into a permanent archive where they can discourage
> others from trying LC well into the future; I see no point in making LC
> look bad to any interested parties. A frank discussion is fine, readers
> absolutely do need to know where traps may lie and what the current status
> of the product is. But sarcasm and scathing condemnation is neither
> acceptable nor productive.
> >
> > Basically: be kind. Think how you'd feel if what you are about to write
> was directed at you.
> >
> > --
> > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> > HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> >
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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>
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-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

2020-03-12 Thread prothero--- via use-livecode

Well said, Jacqueline!
Bill

William A. Prothero
Santa Barbara, CA. 93105
http://earthlearningsolutions.org/

> On Mar 12, 2020, at 11:58 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 3/12/20 12:39 PM, hh via use-livecode wrote:
>> The uselist is not a LC-praising list. As long as we have the freedom of 
>> speech
>> everybody can say whether he is contented with LC or not. And nothing 
>> written does
>> change anything*with LC*, also not your positive-only (and excellent) posts 
>> ...
> 
> Tone is important. There is difference whether the post is a discussion of a 
> problem, or a rant against the team and the company. Discussions are useful 
> and productive. A rant that attacks the dedicated people who are doing their 
> best for us can cause some of us to become defensive.
> 
> For myself, it feels like an attack on my friends. I know these people, how 
> hard they work, and how much they want LC to succeed. I also know that they 
> are deluged with work, they need to choose their priorities carefully, and 
> they care very much. To date, they have met every requirement that the 
> shifting sands at Apple and Google have thrown at them. They need to drop 
> everything else to meet those deadlines, but they do it. Of course, that puts 
> them behind on other things.
> 
> These list posts go into a permanent archive where they can discourage others 
> from trying LC well into the future; I see no point in making LC look bad to 
> any interested parties. A frank discussion is fine, readers absolutely do 
> need to know where traps may lie and what the current status of the product 
> is. But sarcasm and scathing condemnation is neither acceptable nor 
> productive.
> 
> Basically: be kind. Think how you'd feel if what you are about to write was 
> directed at you.
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

2020-03-12 Thread J. Landman Gay via use-livecode

On 3/12/20 12:39 PM, hh via use-livecode wrote:

The uselist is not a LC-praising list. As long as we have the freedom of speech
everybody can say whether he is contented with LC or not. And nothing written
does
change anything*with LC*, also not your positive-only (and excellent) posts ...

Tone is important. There is difference whether the post is a discussion of a problem, or a rant
against the team and the company. Discussions are useful and productive. A rant that attacks
the dedicated people who are doing their best for us can cause some of us to become defensive.

For myself, it feels like an attack on my friends. I know these people, how hard they work, and
how much they want LC to succeed. I also know that they are deluged with work, they need to
choose their priorities carefully, and they care very much. To date, they have met every
requirement that the shifting sands at Apple and Google have thrown at them. They need to drop
everything else to meet those deadlines, but they do it. Of course, that puts them behind on
other things.

These list posts go into a permanent archive where they can discourage others from trying LC
well into the future; I see no point in making LC look bad to any interested parties. A frank
discussion is fine, readers absolutely do need to know where traps may lie and what the current
status of the product is. But sarcasm and scathing condemnation is neither acceptable nor
productive.

Basically: be kind. Think how you'd feel if what you are about to write was
directed at you.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

As to my contentedness with LC, let me say that without LC, my options would be 
Javascript, Python or a host of other script based languages, or else some 
variant of C. That is to say I would be out of options because I simply am too 
lazy and otherwise occupied with my real job to justify the time it would take 
to get "good" at any of these options. 

So from that perspective I am not only contented with LC, I am giddy! But then 
I am not producing commercial mobile apps either, and for the business I work 
for, anything useful I produce is icing on the cake! I am under no time 
constraints, or constraints of any kind! 

Having seen the myriad of threads on mobile app development and the pains 
involved, I can sympathize with anyone attempting it. The hoops RunRev has to 
go through to keep up is staggering to me, but let's step back for a moment and 
look at what mobile support for LC really is. 

Apart from LC (or any other non-java mobile app environment) what you would 
have to do is use the environment provided by Apple or Google. If you did, you 
would have to learn Javascript, and in the bargain you would STILL be subject 
to the restrictions and changes inherent to those environments. 

But WITH LC, you don't need to learn Javascript at all! You can use a familiar 
and incredibly easy to learn language in a pretty amazing GUI, and then (if all 
your ducks are in a row) generate a first class Mobile App. 

A better way to look at it might be this. Suppose Apple and Google requirements 
had remained static since LC first began supporting mobile apps. Would any of 
the obvious pains LC devs are suffering still be issues? If for the most part 
the answer is no, then you can see the pains are not being caused by RunRev. 

My 2¢
Bob S

> On Mar 12, 2020, at 11:08 , hh via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>>> hh wrote:
>>> The uselist is not a LC-praising list. As long as we have the freedom of
>>> speech everybody can say whether he is contented with LC or not.
>> 
>> Bob S. wrote:
>> I was not aware we had such freedoms on this list! For instance, if I begin
>> to speak of fermented dairy products, I will certainly be censured!
>> And well I should be!!!
> 
> I wonder why you want to speak of fermented dairy products in order to express
> whether you are contented with LC or not.

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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

2020-03-12 Thread Rick Harrison via use-livecode

LC = Less Cheese  ;-)

Rick

> On Mar 12, 2020, at 2:16 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> It went on for so many days Heather eventually stepped in and kindly asked us 
> to please stop the cheese conversation so those interested in LiveCode could 
> have more LC and less cheese filling their In Boxes.

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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

hh wrote:
>> Bob S. wrote:
>> I was not aware we had such freedoms on this list! For instance, if I
>> begin to speak of fermented dairy products, I will certainly be
>> censured!
>> And well I should be!!!
>
> I wonder why you want to speak of fermented dairy products in order to
> express whether you are contented with LC or not.

It's a very old community in-joke:

A good many years ago (more than a decade?) a thread that became 
contentious morphed into a very long discussion of cheese preferences, 
which soon became even more contentious (I leaned more about the 
passionate cheese preferences of my colleagues than I'd ever imagined).

It went on for so many days Heather eventually stepped in and kindly 
asked us to please stop the cheese conversation so those interested in 
LiveCode could have more LC and less cheese filling their In Boxes.

In the years since, "cheese" has become a comical shorthand for any 
longish thread not related to using or improving LC, and the only 
expressly verboten topic on this list. :)

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web

 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

Bob Sneidar wrote:

> I was not aware we had such freedoms on this list! For instance, if I
> begin to speak of fermented dairy products, I will certainly be
> censured! And well I should be!!!
>
> Also, and seriously, Freedom of Speech is something that is unique to
> a handful of cultures. It is by no means global.

Freedom of Speech is indeed a wonderful thing, but does not apply here: 
this list is a privately-owned communications channel that doesn't 
receive any funding from the US federal government.

Yet despite no legal requirement to do so, the spirit of that freedom 
seems well embraced by the owners of this list, with unusually light 
moderation.

And like all good freedoms this one is enjoyed equally, so even folks 
who have good experiences with LiveCode or seek ways issues can become 
actionable are allowed to speak their mind as well.

Just no cheese, please. Every community has its boundaries of good taste. :)

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web

 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

> > hh wrote:
> > The uselist is not a LC-praising list. As long as we have the freedom of
> > speech everybody can say whether he is contented with LC or not.
> 
> Bob S. wrote:
> I was not aware we had such freedoms on this list! For instance, if I begin
> to speak of fermented dairy products, I will certainly be censured!
> And well I should be!!!

I wonder why you want to speak of fermented dairy products in order to express
whether you are contented with LC or not.


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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

I was not aware we had such freedoms on this list! For instance, if I begin to 
speak of fermented dairy products, I will certainly be censured! And well I 
should be!!! 

Also, and seriously, Freedom of Speech is something that is unique to a handful 
of cultures. It is by no means global. 

Bob S


> The uselist is not a LC-praising list. As long as we have the freedom of 
> speech
> everybody can say whether he is contented with LC or not. And nothing written 
> does
> change anything *with LC*, also not your positive-only (and excellent) posts 
> ...
> 


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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

+10

> On Mar 12, 2020, at 09:41 , matthias rebbe via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Posting here about a real problem/bug makes sense, because others might jump 
> in and confirm the same experience or might help to solve the problem
> As always, a good recipe, if possible, makes it even easier to reproduce it.
> I very often try to reproduce problems reported here in the list to find out 
> if it´s a general problem/bug in LC or just a problem that occurs only at the 
> system of the reporter.

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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

> > hh wrote:
> > Some people are very angry about deficiencies of LC, what I can understand 
> > from
> > their view, and *we should hear what they have to say*.
>  
> Matthias wrote:
> Why. Posting here won´t change anything.

The uselist is not a LC-praising list. As long as we have the freedom of speech
everybody can say whether he is contented with LC or not. And nothing written 
does
change anything *with LC*, also not your positive-only (and excellent) posts ...

> > hh wrote:
> > [And, by the way, macOS 10.15 is repeating some beginner mistakes from the 
> > early 
> > MacOS X versions. Obviously a lot of beginners are currently at work there.]
> 
> Matthias wrote:
> Because people want always something new. It must be always the newest. 
> Because of
> that the lifecycles of products and software are getting shorter and shorter 
> and
> therefore there is less time for development and testing.

But they changed methods of working things to non-working or half-way working 
methods (for example in Mail.app). Beginner mistakes ...
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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???



> Am 12.03.2020 um 17:08 schrieb hh via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> Some people are very angry about deficiencies of LC, what I can understand 
> from
> their view, and *we should hear what they have to say*.
> 
Why. Posting here won´t change anything.

> Especially when they get angry about the whitewashing of bugs by some list 
> members.
> 
Currently i am not aware of that. I must have  missed such discussions on this 
list. 
But i am sure there were such discussions otherwise you wouldn´t write it.

When a bug is confirmed in the bugbase, no one can whitewash it. When it´s 
confirmed then it´s confirmed.

Posting here about a real problem/bug makes sense, because others might jump in 
and confirm the same experience or might help to solve the problem
As always, a good recipe, if possible, makes it even easier to reproduce it.
I very often try to reproduce problems reported here in the list to find out if 
it´s a general problem/bug in LC or just a problem that occurs only at the 
system of the reporter.

But just moaning here in the list  about deficiencies does not make sense to 
me. What should that do? 
No one can help.

> What's wrong that's wrong, no matter who tries to whitewash bugs or even 
> tries to
> keep quiet about (remaining) bugs. The latter is, compared to the promises of 
> the
> LC main page, more harmful for the reputation of LC than telling the truth.
> 
> And what's good with LC that's good. We too tell the truth with that.
> 
> [And, by the way, macOS 10.15 is repeating some beginner mistakes from the 
> early
> MacOS X versions. Obviously a lot of beginners are currently at work there.]

Because people want always something new. It must be always the newest. 
Because of that the lifecycles of products and software are getting shorter and 
shorter and therefore there is less time for
development and testing.



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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???

Some people are very angry about deficiencies of LC, what I can understand from
their view, and *we should hear what they have to say*.

Especially when they get angry about the whitewashing of bugs by some list 
members.

What's wrong that's wrong, no matter who tries to whitewash bugs or even tries 
to
keep quiet about (remaining) bugs. The latter is, compared to the promises of 
the
LC main page, more harmful for the reputation of LC than telling the truth.

And what's good with LC that's good. We too tell the truth with that.

[And, by the way, macOS 10.15 is repeating some beginner mistakes from the early
MacOS X versions. Obviously a lot of beginners are currently at work there.]
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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???