Re: Complete Crash or Engine Hang: which is better?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Mark Smith wrote:

> Frightening and wonderful at the same time. When I did these exercises
> and then copy pasted a styledText string from LC into TextEdit, it was
> interesting to see what they agreed on, and what they didn't. For
> example, when colouring “numbers” both fields ignored numbers followed
> by “,” but not by a “.” So they were in agreement there. However,
> words containing a “y” were italicized in LC (that was the request)
> but interpreted as bold/underlined in TextEdit?
>
> More remarkably, I have no idea how they can stuff that much style
> info into a text string 😊


It might be interesting to see the htmlText from the source LC field to 
see how the style info is nested, if you're in a position to share it, 
or a sanitized version of it.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Complete Crash or Engine Hang: which is better?

[Mark Smith via use-livecode]

Frightening and wonderful at the same time. When I did these exercises and then 
copy pasted a styledText string from LC into TextEdit, it was interesting to 
see what they agreed on, and what they didn't. For example, when colouring 
“numbers” both fields ignored numbers followed by “,” but not by a “.” So they 
were in agreement there. However, words containing a “y” were italicized in LC 
(that was the request) but interpreted as bold/underlined in TextEdit? 

More remarkably, I have no idea how they can stuff that much style info into a 
text string 😊

Mark


> On Apr 29, 2021, at 7:23 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Mark Smith wrote:
> 
> > Thanks Richard, that probably explains it. There are style runs in
> > the TextEdit text (and not, say, in Atom or some other editor). It
> > was just odd to me because I think (quite simplistically) of text
> > being text and not expecting them to have style runs, but of course
> > they can.
> 
> Here's a fun exercise, well worth a few minutes of playing around: make a 
> field, style some text in it, make a tree widget, and run this in the Message 
> Box:
> 
>  set the arrayData of widget 1 to the styledText of fld 1
> 
> The styledText array is a great representation of field contents, much faster 
> to work with than most HTML-parsing methods, and offering good insight into 
> the internals of LC fields, being the closes match we have from a scripting 
> interface to the underlying field structures.
> 
> The v5.something engine added some super-awesome text properties, with 
> paragraph-level formatting and more.  Seeing them laid out in array format 
> (the tree widget is great for that) really illuminates how things are laid 
> out.
> 
> 
> > This also began because not only could I not change my text, someone
> > else previously had this problem and eventually fixed it by deleting
> > the fields and starting over
> > (https://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32727)
> 
> Yeah, I posted pretty much the same comment there, but like much of what I 
> used to write in the forums it was ignored in favor of doing a lot of 
> unnecessary work. :)
> 
> 
> > I now suspect it may have been style runs in their text as well.
> 
> When things show up that look like extreme problems that would affect nearly 
> every user, it's probably not a regression.  Not that the team's automated 
> testing can catch everything (though it catches a lot), but just that bugs 
> that affect large numbers of people in ways that prevent core use of the 
> product generally don't live long, if they live long enough to get past early 
> beta at all.
> 
> So if we truly had mysteriously immutable text styling, chances are good it 
> would be caught in a Preview build, long before RC.  Good enough to check 
> style runs, anyway. :)
> 
> 
> > I don’t tend to run into this sort of problem because I’m rarely
> > concerned with the style of text, but in this particular case I
> > actually did want to change the font size and color and couldn’t,
> > and that had me puzzled. Ok good, I think you've solved this.
> > Thanks for weighing in.
> 
> Happy to help others avoid pitfalls I've run into myself. I hope that solves 
> it for you.
> 
> I had a head-scratching moment over exactly this many years ago.  Just 
> sharing what I've learned, so others don't have to replicate my mistakes.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> 
> ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
> 
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Re: Complete Crash or Engine Hang: which is better?

[Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode]

Mark:

> Sorry to hear of all your crashes and hangs Curry.

Thanks! The crashes and hangs are only the icing on the cake; 90% of the 
calories are normal bugs, glitches, and poor quality of feature support.


But I actually love bug-hunting, and finding a crash or hang is like a 
trophy specimen. (When I start to NOT love bug-hunting is when there are 
so many issues that I realize this part of LC simply isn't well-coded.)


Since I'm working on this, LC pasting will improve one way or the other:
either through Engine fixes (especially the crashers) and/or my own lib.
Improvement is inevitable; I've made up my mind to ensure that. :)

Paul:

> some overhaul of the LC code for interacting with the clipboard
> is warranted to improve reliability.

Amen! Thank you for that sentiment. I heartily agree.

With one caveat: with LC, I'm getting leery of words like "refactor" and 
"overhaul." That's because after all the excitement of a shiny new 
revision, too often the new code is just as buggy and limited as the old 
code was. From half-finished, to half-finished. Different, yet same.


I think what LC needs, in areas like the Player and the Paste, is not 
necessarily just shiny new code, but rather fully-finished code.

Whether that builds on the old, or starts fresh, I don't care.
Either way a feature needs to be finished and polished, not roughed in.

For example, I am aware that the Player API needs updating. That will be 
good! But after doing so, the Team should polish the Player up a bit. 
Don't leave it glitchy and buggy, the way we found it a year ago.


Maybe one additional caveat: Resources are always limited, of course, so 
if it comes down to choosing between polishing the Player, versus 
polishing Paste, I'd say the Team should mainly polish the Player!


Because I can (and am) polishing Paste up quite a bit myself.
LC shoulda, woulda, coulda done it MUCH better in the first place.
But I can fix some high-level stuff myself, other than the crashers.
LC Team should improve the Player, optimize the Engine, etc.

Richard:

> bugs that affect large numbers of people in ways that
> prevent core use of the product generally don't live long,
> if they live long enough to get past early beta at all.

I wish that were true! It probably is, in certain areas.
(And "large numbers" and "core use" provide nice cover fire.
Who knows, Paste might be a core use for more than a handful of people.)

The truth is that our Community, like most, has some social Cliques.
And every Clique has certain areas that it promotes over others.

The principles of "squeaky wheel" and "see what you want to see" apply.
The most vocal Clique may not be very "large" but they are very loud,
having an outsized effect on what gets added and fixed, versus ignored.

In their own areas of interest/need, they may notice bugs quickly.
Very good. But why have I been finding so many 5- and 10-year old bugs?
Seems like the Cliques missed a few. And of course the areas they aren't 
looking at, the areas they aren't promoting, may not seem important.


I'm not saying that's a sin; everyone has preferences and interests.
But to "the rest of us" some of those ignored areas are very important.
From time to time, I ensure that other Voices and Narratives are heard.
Hopefully before people get frustrated and look for greener pastures.

Not to worry! Paste, and other areas, are improving by the day

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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RE: Complete Crash or Engine Hang: which is better?

[Ralph DiMola via use-livecode]

Style runs can also speed up your app.
I have a scrolling group of 1 field with 200 lines. I put ellipses on every 
line that the text does not fit horizontally. Doing this in the field became 
impractical after the number of lines got too large. The solution was to 
assemble a styled text array(using mesuretext) and then inserting the styled 
array into the field. I have to go back and look but I think there was a 10x or 
more performance increase for my average case. In any case it became sub-second 
instead of seconds.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net


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Re: Complete Crash or Engine Hang: which is better?

[Mark Smith via use-livecode]

I figured as much but was just probing to fill in my own gaps in knowledge. 
Glad you piped in to clear up the confusion for me 😊

> On Apr 29, 2021, at 7:23 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> When things show up that look like extreme problems that would affect nearly 
> every user, it's probably not a regression.  Not that the team's automated 
> testing can catch everything (though it catches a lot), but just that bugs 
> that affect large numbers of people in ways that prevent core use of the 
> product generally don't live long, if they live long enough to get past early 
> beta at all.

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Re: Complete Crash or Engine Hang: which is better?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Mark Smith wrote:

> Thanks Richard, that probably explains it. There are style runs in
> the TextEdit text (and not, say, in Atom or some other editor). It
> was just odd to me because I think (quite simplistically) of text
> being text and not expecting them to have style runs, but of course
> they can.

Here's a fun exercise, well worth a few minutes of playing around: make 
a field, style some text in it, make a tree widget, and run this in the 
Message Box:


  set the arrayData of widget 1 to the styledText of fld 1

The styledText array is a great representation of field contents, much 
faster to work with than most HTML-parsing methods, and offering good 
insight into the internals of LC fields, being the closes match we have 
from a scripting interface to the underlying field structures.


The v5.something engine added some super-awesome text properties, with 
paragraph-level formatting and more.  Seeing them laid out in array 
format (the tree widget is great for that) really illuminates how things 
are laid out.



> This also began because not only could I not change my text, someone
> else previously had this problem and eventually fixed it by deleting
> the fields and starting over
> (https://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32727)

Yeah, I posted pretty much the same comment there, but like much of what 
I used to write in the forums it was ignored in favor of doing a lot of 
unnecessary work. :)



> I now suspect it may have been style runs in their text as well.

When things show up that look like extreme problems that would affect 
nearly every user, it's probably not a regression.  Not that the team's 
automated testing can catch everything (though it catches a lot), but 
just that bugs that affect large numbers of people in ways that prevent 
core use of the product generally don't live long, if they live long 
enough to get past early beta at all.


So if we truly had mysteriously immutable text styling, chances are good 
it would be caught in a Preview build, long before RC.  Good enough to 
check style runs, anyway. :)



> I don’t tend to run into this sort of problem because I’m rarely
> concerned with the style of text, but in this particular case I
> actually did want to change the font size and color and couldn’t,
> and that had me puzzled. Ok good, I think you've solved this.
> Thanks for weighing in.

Happy to help others avoid pitfalls I've run into myself. I hope that 
solves it for you.


I had a head-scratching moment over exactly this many years ago.  Just 
sharing what I've learned, so others don't have to replicate my mistakes.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Complete Crash or Engine Hang: which is better?

[Tom Glod via use-livecode]

Goo test, though single spaces are included.

Come to think of it, maybe its the php checker plugin I have  and maybe
its isolated to php. although I also wrote dart and I'm pretty sure it
happened there too.

I will test more.

Cheers,

Tom

On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 2:04 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Tom Glod wrote:
>
>  > when the clibpboardData["html"] is set ...and then you paste into
>  > VSCode... the spaces are unrecognized characters.
>
> All spaces, or just multiple spaces being rendered as a single space?
>
> If the latter, that would seem a design choice by the host app for that
> data format type, since it's customary for HTML to render only one space
> and ignore any others.
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>   
>   ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Mobile:647.562.9411
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Re: Complete Crash or Engine Hang: which is better?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Tom Glod wrote:

> when the clibpboardData["html"] is set ...and then you paste into
> VSCode... the spaces are unrecognized characters.

All spaces, or just multiple spaces being rendered as a single space?

If the latter, that would seem a design choice by the host app for that 
data format type, since it's customary for HTML to render only one space 
and ignore any others.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Complete Crash or Engine Hang: which is better?

[Tom Glod via use-livecode]

Since you are doing clipboard stuff

when the clibpboardData["html"] is set ...and then you paste into VSCode
... the spaces are unrecognized characters.

on windows, not sure about the others.

Cheers,

Tom



On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 1:15 PM Mark Smith via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Thanks Richard, that probably explains it. There are style runs in the
> TextEdit text (and not, say, in Atom or some other editor). It was just odd
> to me because I think (quite simplistically) of text being text and not
> expecting them to have style runs, but of course they can. This also began
> because not only could I not change my text, someone else previously had
> this problem and eventually fixed it by deleting the fields and starting
> over (https://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32727 <
> https://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32727>). I now suspect it
> may have been style runs in their text as well. I don’t tend to run into
> this sort of problem because I’m rarely concerned with the style of text,
> but in this particular case I actually did want to change the font size and
> color and couldn’t, and that had me puzzled. Ok good, I think you've solved
> this. Thanks for weighing in.
>
> Mark
>
> > On Apr 29, 2021, at 5:18 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Mark Smith wrote:
> >
> > > here’s an odd pasting issue I ran into the other day. To cut to the
> > > chase, basically I can make a field become unmodifiable with respect
> > > to TEXT parameters (excluding align) by pasting anything from Apples
> > > TextEdit tool into the field.
> >
> > By what means were you attempting to modify the text styles?
> >
> > If you modify the text styling properties of the field object itself,
> remember that style runs within the field will override those.
> >
> > You could have your script paste with putting the clipboardData["text"]
> into the selection, and you can strip style runs to inherit field
> properties with "put fld X into fld X".
> >
> > --
> > Richard Gaskin
> > Fourth World Systems
> > Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> > 
> > ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
> >
> > ___
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Mobile:647.562.9411
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Re: Complete Crash or Engine Hang: which is better?

[Mark Smith via use-livecode]

Thanks Richard, that probably explains it. There are style runs in the TextEdit 
text (and not, say, in Atom or some other editor). It was just odd to me 
because I think (quite simplistically) of text being text and not expecting 
them to have style runs, but of course they can. This also began because not 
only could I not change my text, someone else previously had this problem and 
eventually fixed it by deleting the fields and starting over 
(https://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32727 
). I now suspect it may 
have been style runs in their text as well. I don’t tend to run into this sort 
of problem because I’m rarely concerned with the style of text, but in this 
particular case I actually did want to change the font size and color and 
couldn’t, and that had me puzzled. Ok good, I think you've solved this. Thanks 
for weighing in.

Mark

> On Apr 29, 2021, at 5:18 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Mark Smith wrote:
> 
> > here’s an odd pasting issue I ran into the other day. To cut to the
> > chase, basically I can make a field become unmodifiable with respect
> > to TEXT parameters (excluding align) by pasting anything from Apples
> > TextEdit tool into the field.
> 
> By what means were you attempting to modify the text styles?
> 
> If you modify the text styling properties of the field object itself, 
> remember that style runs within the field will override those.
> 
> You could have your script paste with putting the clipboardData["text"] into 
> the selection, and you can strip style runs to inherit field properties with 
> "put fld X into fld X".
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> 
> ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
> 
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> preferences:
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Re: Complete Crash or Engine Hang: which is better?

[Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via use-livecode]

I have an app that put’s a lot of text into a variable (an entire web page 
worth of HTML) that if I copy from the breakpoint inspector in the Script 
Editor and paste into Dreamweaver (for a quick preview) the text appears as 
what appears to be Chinese. My workaround is to paste that into a Text Only 
document in TextEdit, then copy THAT text from TextEdit and paste into 
Dreamweaver.

Does the Edit > Paste Unformatted still render as the previous RTF?

—Andrew Bell

> 
> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 15:19:48 +0100
> From: Mark Smith 
> To: How to use LiveCode 
> Subject: Re: Complete Crash or Engine Hang: which is better?
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> Hi Craig,
> 
> Yes, unusable from the perspective of changing the font size, boldness, 
> underline, italics etc  (alignment still works). The field still accepts 
> text, I just can?t edit the style anymore. Also, bizarrely, if I remove the 
> pasted text and just type in it directly I still have the same deficit. In 
> other words, the field is knackered. I have to delete it and create a new one 
> if I want to do any edits to the format. Also, this happens if I grab a label 
> and just paste text from TextEdit into the contents window. Same effect. 
> 
> It certainly has been persisting ever since I noticed it a few days ago. Not 
> sure I ever pasted text from TextEdit before so hard to say how long this has 
> been an issue. None of this is reproducible with Atom. Just with TextEdit (v 
> 1.15). LC 9.6.1 on Catalina 10.15.7
> 
> Mark


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Re: Complete Crash or Engine Hang: which is better?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Mark Smith wrote:

> here’s an odd pasting issue I ran into the other day. To cut to the
> chase, basically I can make a field become unmodifiable with respect
> to TEXT parameters (excluding align) by pasting anything from Apples
> TextEdit tool into the field.

By what means were you attempting to modify the text styles?

If you modify the text styling properties of the field object itself, 
remember that style runs within the field will override those.


You could have your script paste with putting the clipboardData["text"] 
into the selection, and you can strip style runs to inherit field 
properties with "put fld X into fld X".


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Complete Crash or Engine Hang: which is better?

[Paul Dupuis via use-livecode]

It seems that if you are making an application in LiveCode where a user 
can copy from 3rd party apps and paste into your LiveCode app, you 
almost have to add a routine to scrub the clipboard data of any 
"problem" data - which sees to be any non printable characters - or 
problems occur.


I thought one of the differences between clipboardData, 
fullClipboardData, and rawClipboardData was that LC 'scrubbed' the 
contents to ensure the correct format for the key used, but I have not 
found that to be the case.


I think enough people run into clipboard problems when developing in LC 
that some overhaul of the LC code for interacting with the clipboard is 
warranted to improve reliability.



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Re: Complete Crash or Engine Hang: which is better?

[Mark Smith via use-livecode]

Hi Craig,

Yes, unusable from the perspective of changing the font size, boldness, 
underline, italics etc  (alignment still works). The field still accepts text, 
I just can’t edit the style anymore. Also, bizarrely, if I remove the pasted 
text and just type in it directly I still have the same deficit. In other 
words, the field is knackered. I have to delete it and create a new one if I 
want to do any edits to the format. Also, this happens if I grab a label and 
just paste text from TextEdit into the contents window. Same effect. 

It certainly has been persisting ever since I noticed it a few days ago. Not 
sure I ever pasted text from TextEdit before so hard to say how long this has 
been an issue. None of this is reproducible with Atom. Just with TextEdit (v 
1.15). LC 9.6.1 on Catalina 10.15.7

Mark



> On Apr 29, 2021, at 2:00 PM, Craig Newman via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Mark.
> 
> Am I understanding that you can paste text from textEdit into a LC field, and 
> that renders the field unusable? I see nothing like this. I rarely actually 
> do that, though now and then use textEdit as a scratchpad to then load into a 
> field.
> 
> Is this actually something you see all the time?
> 
> Craig
> 
>> On Apr 29, 2021, at 6:28 AM, Mark Smith via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Rants aside, here’s an odd pasting issue I ran into the other day. To cut to 
>> the chase, basically I can make a field become unmodifiable with respect to 
>> TEXT parameters (excluding align) by pasting anything from Apples TextEdit 
>> tool into the field. Is that just something quirky in my setup or do others 
>> have the same problem? I’ve also tried with Atom and did not see the same 
>> problem… 
>> 
>> Sorry to hear of all your crashes and hangs Curry. I suspect you are 
>> exercising LC a lot more vigorously than I am as a crash a year is a 
>> surprise to me (excluding working with DG’s where one has to tip toe 
>> cautiously to avoid “breaking” the grid. I guess that would be considered a 
>> hang).
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>> 
>>> On Apr 29, 2021, at 9:31 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> (Full disclosure: Testing a "Cheerful Rant" format to see whether employing 
>>> some humor is more effective when letting off steam, and hopefully even 
>>> slipping a bit of common sense past politically-correct radars under the 
>>> cover of attempted wit. We'll see how this fares, compared to the Standard 
>>> Angry Rants and reflexive Community Defensive Reactions that we see every 
>>> couple of weeks when people "Chimp Out" after a nasty ground-and-pound 
>>> session with lovely LiveCode bugs! Trigger warning: may or may not induce 
>>> mild chuckling, or in adverse cases traumatic Frontline Flashbacks to your 
>>> bug battle days with intermittent seizures and a nasty full-body rash.)
>>> 
>>> So...first to apologize for being less talkative here on the list during 
>>> the last week: I've been spending some intimate time with one of LC's 
>>> least-polished and buggiest features. Yep, I'm back on "paste" and related 
>>> areas! It's a part of LC where you could choose to devote the entire 
>>> remaining years of your life to the Bug Monkhood, filing thousands of bug 
>>> reports and feature requests. Or you can file the most important dozen 
>>> reports, avoid full-time Monkhood, and sum it up as: this area of LiveCode 
>>> looks only "half-finished." It was a case of Codus Interruptus, apparently.
>>> 
>>> More details on that and some other news to follow soon, when I've finished 
>>> more workarounds, so that I can meet the client deadline and then file the 
>>> bug reports
>>> 
>>> Meanwhile, here's a dilemma of another sort:
>>> 
>>> While working on paste and related areas that seem only half-finished in 
>>> the LC Engine, I've been luxuriating in the blissful experience of having 
>>> my coding and debugging interrupted by crashes and freezes. Did I lose any 
>>> work, you might inquire? Ha ha, that'll be the day! You're talking to a 
>>> person so save-compulsive that I can't even type a message like this 
>>> without saving the draft after every sentence. (Save.) LC has trained me 
>>> well, in the style of Pavlov's mutts. (Save, salivate.) So that's not even 
>>> a problem.
>>> 
>>> No, the trouble is trying to decide whether my all-time favorite should be 
>>> the Crash or the Hang.
>>> 
>>> Both are elegant ways of ending a work session. Yet each has its 
>>> attractions, and even LiveCode's trusty conditioning hasn't provided me 
>>> with a clear answer on which is better. (Wait, or has it? Save, salivate, 
>>> wag.)
>>> 
>>> Crashing instantly out to the Desktop is convenient, because you're all set 
>>> to relaunch LC again with not so much as an extra click. You can relaunch 
>>> and crash, relaunch and crash, almost as fast as one of those toy monkeys 
>>> with the cymbals, and with a similar overall appearance.
>>> 
>>> After you've done a few repeats, you also get a quicker 

Re: Complete Crash or Engine Hang: which is better?

[Craig Newman via use-livecode]

Mark.

Am I understanding that you can paste text from textEdit into a LC field, and 
that renders the field unusable? I see nothing like this. I rarely actually do 
that, though now and then use textEdit as a scratchpad to then load into a 
field.

Is this actually something you see all the time?

Craig

> On Apr 29, 2021, at 6:28 AM, Mark Smith via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Rants aside, here’s an odd pasting issue I ran into the other day. To cut to 
> the chase, basically I can make a field become unmodifiable with respect to 
> TEXT parameters (excluding align) by pasting anything from Apples TextEdit 
> tool into the field. Is that just something quirky in my setup or do others 
> have the same problem? I’ve also tried with Atom and did not see the same 
> problem… 
> 
> Sorry to hear of all your crashes and hangs Curry. I suspect you are 
> exercising LC a lot more vigorously than I am as a crash a year is a surprise 
> to me (excluding working with DG’s where one has to tip toe cautiously to 
> avoid “breaking” the grid. I guess that would be considered a hang).
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
>> On Apr 29, 2021, at 9:31 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> (Full disclosure: Testing a "Cheerful Rant" format to see whether employing 
>> some humor is more effective when letting off steam, and hopefully even 
>> slipping a bit of common sense past politically-correct radars under the 
>> cover of attempted wit. We'll see how this fares, compared to the Standard 
>> Angry Rants and reflexive Community Defensive Reactions that we see every 
>> couple of weeks when people "Chimp Out" after a nasty ground-and-pound 
>> session with lovely LiveCode bugs! Trigger warning: may or may not induce 
>> mild chuckling, or in adverse cases traumatic Frontline Flashbacks to your 
>> bug battle days with intermittent seizures and a nasty full-body rash.)
>> 
>> So...first to apologize for being less talkative here on the list during the 
>> last week: I've been spending some intimate time with one of LC's 
>> least-polished and buggiest features. Yep, I'm back on "paste" and related 
>> areas! It's a part of LC where you could choose to devote the entire 
>> remaining years of your life to the Bug Monkhood, filing thousands of bug 
>> reports and feature requests. Or you can file the most important dozen 
>> reports, avoid full-time Monkhood, and sum it up as: this area of LiveCode 
>> looks only "half-finished." It was a case of Codus Interruptus, apparently.
>> 
>> More details on that and some other news to follow soon, when I've finished 
>> more workarounds, so that I can meet the client deadline and then file the 
>> bug reports
>> 
>> Meanwhile, here's a dilemma of another sort:
>> 
>> While working on paste and related areas that seem only half-finished in the 
>> LC Engine, I've been luxuriating in the blissful experience of having my 
>> coding and debugging interrupted by crashes and freezes. Did I lose any 
>> work, you might inquire? Ha ha, that'll be the day! You're talking to a 
>> person so save-compulsive that I can't even type a message like this without 
>> saving the draft after every sentence. (Save.) LC has trained me well, in 
>> the style of Pavlov's mutts. (Save, salivate.) So that's not even a problem.
>> 
>> No, the trouble is trying to decide whether my all-time favorite should be 
>> the Crash or the Hang.
>> 
>> Both are elegant ways of ending a work session. Yet each has its 
>> attractions, and even LiveCode's trusty conditioning hasn't provided me with 
>> a clear answer on which is better. (Wait, or has it? Save, salivate, wag.)
>> 
>> Crashing instantly out to the Desktop is convenient, because you're all set 
>> to relaunch LC again with not so much as an extra click. You can relaunch 
>> and crash, relaunch and crash, almost as fast as one of those toy monkeys 
>> with the cymbals, and with a similar overall appearance.
>> 
>> After you've done a few repeats, you also get a quicker start on your 
>> Cheerful Rant or your bug report. The complete instant crash (as long as the 
>> app simply disappears, with no system dialogs) is the epitome of a very 
>> clean and crisp user experience; I have to admire the purism. Finally, the 
>> nostalgia factor is huge: it really takes me back to LC 1.1.1 and my first 
>> days here. ("Hey, where'd the IDE go?") Thus, the winner for classic style 
>> might be the Instant Crash. All the Cool Kids do this; you should too!
>> 
>> However, having the Engine "hang" can provide additional useful clues to the 
>> cause of the problem, in around 13% of all cases. That's automatically 
>> making lemons into lemonade, as long as your computer monitor was built 
>> up-to-snuff in Silicon Santa's third world sweatshops and the helpful clues 
>> don't "burn in" to the screen. The Hang also provides much of your 
>> recommended daily amount of Task Manager exercise with force-quit 
>> repetitions to bulk up mouse-hand and mouse-finger musculatu

Re: Complete Crash or Engine Hang: which is better?

[Mark Smith via use-livecode]

Rants aside, here’s an odd pasting issue I ran into the other day. To cut to 
the chase, basically I can make a field become unmodifiable with respect to 
TEXT parameters (excluding align) by pasting anything from Apples TextEdit tool 
into the field. Is that just something quirky in my setup or do others have the 
same problem? I’ve also tried with Atom and did not see the same problem… 

Sorry to hear of all your crashes and hangs Curry. I suspect you are exercising 
LC a lot more vigorously than I am as a crash a year is a surprise to me 
(excluding working with DG’s where one has to tip toe cautiously to avoid 
“breaking” the grid. I guess that would be considered a hang).

Mark


> On Apr 29, 2021, at 9:31 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> (Full disclosure: Testing a "Cheerful Rant" format to see whether employing 
> some humor is more effective when letting off steam, and hopefully even 
> slipping a bit of common sense past politically-correct radars under the 
> cover of attempted wit. We'll see how this fares, compared to the Standard 
> Angry Rants and reflexive Community Defensive Reactions that we see every 
> couple of weeks when people "Chimp Out" after a nasty ground-and-pound 
> session with lovely LiveCode bugs! Trigger warning: may or may not induce 
> mild chuckling, or in adverse cases traumatic Frontline Flashbacks to your 
> bug battle days with intermittent seizures and a nasty full-body rash.)
> 
> So...first to apologize for being less talkative here on the list during the 
> last week: I've been spending some intimate time with one of LC's 
> least-polished and buggiest features. Yep, I'm back on "paste" and related 
> areas! It's a part of LC where you could choose to devote the entire 
> remaining years of your life to the Bug Monkhood, filing thousands of bug 
> reports and feature requests. Or you can file the most important dozen 
> reports, avoid full-time Monkhood, and sum it up as: this area of LiveCode 
> looks only "half-finished." It was a case of Codus Interruptus, apparently.
> 
> More details on that and some other news to follow soon, when I've finished 
> more workarounds, so that I can meet the client deadline and then file the 
> bug reports
> 
> Meanwhile, here's a dilemma of another sort:
> 
> While working on paste and related areas that seem only half-finished in the 
> LC Engine, I've been luxuriating in the blissful experience of having my 
> coding and debugging interrupted by crashes and freezes. Did I lose any work, 
> you might inquire? Ha ha, that'll be the day! You're talking to a person so 
> save-compulsive that I can't even type a message like this without saving the 
> draft after every sentence. (Save.) LC has trained me well, in the style of 
> Pavlov's mutts. (Save, salivate.) So that's not even a problem.
> 
> No, the trouble is trying to decide whether my all-time favorite should be 
> the Crash or the Hang.
> 
> Both are elegant ways of ending a work session. Yet each has its attractions, 
> and even LiveCode's trusty conditioning hasn't provided me with a clear 
> answer on which is better. (Wait, or has it? Save, salivate, wag.)
> 
> Crashing instantly out to the Desktop is convenient, because you're all set 
> to relaunch LC again with not so much as an extra click. You can relaunch and 
> crash, relaunch and crash, almost as fast as one of those toy monkeys with 
> the cymbals, and with a similar overall appearance.
> 
> After you've done a few repeats, you also get a quicker start on your 
> Cheerful Rant or your bug report. The complete instant crash (as long as the 
> app simply disappears, with no system dialogs) is the epitome of a very clean 
> and crisp user experience; I have to admire the purism. Finally, the 
> nostalgia factor is huge: it really takes me back to LC 1.1.1 and my first 
> days here. ("Hey, where'd the IDE go?") Thus, the winner for classic style 
> might be the Instant Crash. All the Cool Kids do this; you should too!
> 
> However, having the Engine "hang" can provide additional useful clues to the 
> cause of the problem, in around 13% of all cases. That's automatically making 
> lemons into lemonade, as long as your computer monitor was built up-to-snuff 
> in Silicon Santa's third world sweatshops and the helpful clues don't "burn 
> in" to the screen. The Hang also provides much of your recommended daily 
> amount of Task Manager exercise with force-quit repetitions to bulk up 
> mouse-hand and mouse-finger musculature on one side of your body, hermit-crab 
> style. The asymmetric look will be trending any day now.
> 
> Meanwhile your CPU gets an extra workout too, and this provides an excellent 
> test of your OS kernel in throttling and managing out-of-control processes. 
> (Usually that means LC.) This even warms up your laptop on those cold 
> mornings. And when someone asks you "how's it hanging" you can quip a very 
> technical answer with the computer usage stats for that par

Complete Crash or Engine Hang: which is better?

[Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode]

(Full disclosure: Testing a "Cheerful Rant" format to see whether 
employing some humor is more effective when letting off steam, and 
hopefully even slipping a bit of common sense past politically-correct 
radars under the cover of attempted wit. We'll see how this fares, 
compared to the Standard Angry Rants and reflexive Community Defensive 
Reactions that we see every couple of weeks when people "Chimp Out" 
after a nasty ground-and-pound session with lovely LiveCode bugs! 
Trigger warning: may or may not induce mild chuckling, or in adverse 
cases traumatic Frontline Flashbacks to your bug battle days with 
intermittent seizures and a nasty full-body rash.)


So...first to apologize for being less talkative here on the list during 
the last week: I've been spending some intimate time with one of LC's 
least-polished and buggiest features. Yep, I'm back on "paste" and 
related areas! It's a part of LC where you could choose to devote the 
entire remaining years of your life to the Bug Monkhood, filing 
thousands of bug reports and feature requests. Or you can file the most 
important dozen reports, avoid full-time Monkhood, and sum it up as: 
this area of LiveCode looks only "half-finished." It was a case of Codus 
Interruptus, apparently.


More details on that and some other news to follow soon, when I've 
finished more workarounds, so that I can meet the client deadline and 
then file the bug reports


Meanwhile, here's a dilemma of another sort:

While working on paste and related areas that seem only half-finished in 
the LC Engine, I've been luxuriating in the blissful experience of 
having my coding and debugging interrupted by crashes and freezes. Did I 
lose any work, you might inquire? Ha ha, that'll be the day! You're 
talking to a person so save-compulsive that I can't even type a message 
like this without saving the draft after every sentence. (Save.) LC has 
trained me well, in the style of Pavlov's mutts. (Save, salivate.) So 
that's not even a problem.


No, the trouble is trying to decide whether my all-time favorite should 
be the Crash or the Hang.


Both are elegant ways of ending a work session. Yet each has its 
attractions, and even LiveCode's trusty conditioning hasn't provided me 
with a clear answer on which is better. (Wait, or has it? Save, 
salivate, wag.)


Crashing instantly out to the Desktop is convenient, because you're all 
set to relaunch LC again with not so much as an extra click. You can 
relaunch and crash, relaunch and crash, almost as fast as one of those 
toy monkeys with the cymbals, and with a similar overall appearance.


After you've done a few repeats, you also get a quicker start on your 
Cheerful Rant or your bug report. The complete instant crash (as long as 
the app simply disappears, with no system dialogs) is the epitome of a 
very clean and crisp user experience; I have to admire the purism. 
Finally, the nostalgia factor is huge: it really takes me back to LC 
1.1.1 and my first days here. ("Hey, where'd the IDE go?") Thus, the 
winner for classic style might be the Instant Crash. All the Cool Kids 
do this; you should too!


However, having the Engine "hang" can provide additional useful clues to 
the cause of the problem, in around 13% of all cases. That's 
automatically making lemons into lemonade, as long as your computer 
monitor was built up-to-snuff in Silicon Santa's third world sweatshops 
and the helpful clues don't "burn in" to the screen. The Hang also 
provides much of your recommended daily amount of Task Manager exercise 
with force-quit repetitions to bulk up mouse-hand and mouse-finger 
musculature on one side of your body, hermit-crab style. The asymmetric 
look will be trending any day now.


Meanwhile your CPU gets an extra workout too, and this provides an 
excellent test of your OS kernel in throttling and managing 
out-of-control processes. (Usually that means LC.) This even warms up 
your laptop on those cold mornings. And when someone asks you "how's it 
hanging" you can quip a very technical answer with the computer usage 
stats for that particular bug. ("Yeah my homie, it's hanging around 37% 
CPU load today.") Altogether, that's a ton of added value; the Hang has 
a lot of bang for the buck! This is Fat Jolly Giant Panda Buffet of 
session endings.


(For some there might be a childish tit-for-tat psychological appeal for 
the "Hang" in exercising control and closure over deciding when to force 
LC to quit. However, I would argue that's illusory; force-quit is almost 
always reactive. LC consistently maintains the iniative. The IDE 
arbitrarily chooses the moment and the manner to unceremoniously end 
your workflow, then forces you to take additional steps just to cool 
down your chip. Your only true choice is whether to relaunch or not. 
Therefore LC is calling the shots: LC = Pavlov. You're hoping for a 
little Beefaroni, maybe even a pat on the head: You = mutt. Force-quit, 
salivate.)


Therefore...if I had