Re: Contributing to the IDE

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 2:46 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> You might make a change to a file which looks identical in 9 and 9.1 - but
> how do you know it will work in 9.1 without running it in 9.1?


​As someone who was, until about four months back, using 6.7.3, you think
I'm that concerned about 9.1? ;-)

But I see your point.

gc​
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Re: Contributing to the IDE

[Niggemann, Bernd via use-livecode]

>Monte Goulding via 
>use-livecode
> Fri, 20 Apr 2018 01:49:50 
>-0700
> wrote


>I’m fairly sure Bernd implements stuff using his current install of LC locally
>then then makes a patch with that using the github web ui. Am I right Bernd? I
>think the web interface is significantly harder and more confusing to use
>personally but that could be just me. It’s also not possible to do things like
>fix up commit messages.



Yes, I use the github web ui. It is not really straightforward but after a 
while one gets used to it. And some things are not possible but one can always 
close a pull request and do a new one. E.g when doing a pull request against 
the wrong branch.

Kind regards

Bernd

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Re: Contributing to the IDE

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2018-04-20 11:15, Geoff Canyon via use-livecode wrote:

​I get that -- my point is that *many* of the IDE script files are
unchanged from 9.0 release to the current(?) develop branch. So working 
on
files in 9.0, making changes, and then submitting a pull request, 
unless

git somehow makes this a slog, should be perfectly acceptable​. They're
just text files, many of which haven't changed in six months. Or is 
there

something magic (and to me, frustrating) about git that makes it
unacceptable to submit a change made to a file in 9.0 to an identical 
file

in 9.1?


This is nothing to do with git at all - it is to do with actually being 
able to test the change you make and ensure it actually does what you 
want.


Just because a file hasn't changed for months, doesn't mean that its 
action isn't dependent on some code somewhere else in the system.


You might make a change to a file which looks identical in 9 and 9.1 - 
but how do you know it will work in 9.1 without running it in 9.1?


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Contributing to the IDE

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 1:49 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>>
> Yes - my point about the engine and IDE versions being mutually dependent
> :)


​I get that -- my point is that *many* of the IDE script files are
unchanged from 9.0 release to the current(?) develop branch. So working on
files in 9.0, making changes, and then submitting a pull request, unless
git somehow makes this a slog, should be perfectly acceptable​. They're
just text files, many of which haven't changed in six months. Or is there
something magic (and to me, frustrating) about git that makes it
unacceptable to submit a change made to a file in 9.0 to an identical file
in 9.1?
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Re: Contributing to the IDE

[Monte Goulding via use-livecode]

> ​Sorry, one other point: yes, you are correct, working from a pre-built
> distribution is exactly the question I was asking, and if the only issue is
> syncing the IDE files with the development versions, that seems like a
> small issue: many of the files at
> https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/tree/develop/Toolset/libraries are
> months to years from their last update. Ditto for
> https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/tree/develop/Toolset/palettes/script%20editor/behaviors.
> That
> makes it seem as though it would absolutely be possible to work on the IDE
> in the current 9.x release, with the caveat that merge conflicts would be
> *slightly* more likely. ​
> 
> Or am I missing something?

I think you are missing that once setup to build then it’s just once click in 
xcode or visual studio or one command on linux and you can rebuild and run the 
correct engine for the IDE so spending any time trying to figure out how to 
avoid such a small amount of work doesn’t seem that helpful. Additionally once 
setup like that you can patch anything from engine, docs, widgets, ide… so it’s 
much less limiting.

Cheers

Monte
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Re: Contributing to the IDE

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2018-04-20 10:39, Geoff Canyon via use-livecode wrote:

​Sorry, one other point: yes, you are correct, working from a pre-built
distribution is exactly the question I was asking, and if the only 
issue is

syncing the IDE files with the development versions, that seems like a
small issue: many of the files at
https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/tree/develop/Toolset/libraries 
are

months to years from their last update. Ditto for
https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/tree/develop/Toolset/palettes/script%20editor/behaviors.
That
makes it seem as though it would absolutely be possible to work on the 
IDE
in the current 9.x release, with the caveat that merge conflicts would 
be

*slightly* more likely. ​

Or am I missing something?


Yes - my point about the engine and IDE versions being mutually 
dependent :)


There is every chance that the develop-9.0 HEAD IDE *WILL NOT WORK* with 
the release-9.0.0 engine - if you can't run the IDE, you can't edit it, 
or check your changes do what you want.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Contributing to the IDE

[Monte Goulding via use-livecode]

> On 20 Apr 2018, at 6:29 pm, Geoff Canyon via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> 1. Are older versions closed to changes? If I find a bug in LC 8.1.8 (or
> some update to it) is it pointless to fix the bug and submit a pull request?

If it is still present on the maintenance release branch (currently 
develop-9.0) then fix against that and it will be in the next maintenance 
release.

> 2. Is it fair to submit IDE pull requests the same way I might for the
> documentation? I.E., GitHub was perfectly happy to fork https://github.com/
> livecode/livecode-ide/edit/develop/Toolset/palettes/menubar/revmenubar.
> livecodescript for me, so it seems that if I update it, I could submit a
> pull request for it, without having built anything. Obviously that beheads
> a significant fraction of git's functionality, but it gets the job done,
> correct?

I’m fairly sure Bernd implements stuff using his current install of LC locally 
then then makes a patch with that using the github web ui. Am I right Bernd? I 
think the web interface is significantly harder and more confusing to use 
personally but that could be just me. It’s also not possible to do things like 
fix up commit messages.

Cheers

Monte

> 
> Thanks,
> 
> gc
> 
> On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 1:08 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 2018-04-17 03:44, Geoff Canyon via use-livecode wrote:
>> 
>>> Are there instructions available somewhere on how to set up the IDE in
>>> GitHub so I can make changes and submit pull requests?
>>> 
>> 
>> Not in the way you are trying to - no.
>> 
>> Pretty much all our documentation is centered around the initial step
>> which is getting the entire LiveCode system (engine and IDE) to build from
>> source first. The main docs for that start in the LiveCode repo README -
>> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/README.md.
>> 
>> What you are asking for is slightly different: "How do I make it so that I
>> can modify the IDE in a pre-built distribution and submit patches/PR from
>> that".
>> 
>> The main issue here (and perhaps the only issue) is that the HEAD versions
>> of the version branches (release-* branches for specific releases,
>> develop-* for the frontier of maintenance releases and develop for the next
>> release) in the three main community repositories are all mutually
>> dependent to a greater or lesser degree. Whilst you can try and use the
>> develop HEAD version of the IDE with an engine built from develop-9.0 or
>> earlier, the reality is that it might not work.
>> 
>> Whilst it would be really really nice to have the IDE completely
>> independent of a given engine version, that is still a dream we are quite a
>> way from realizing.
>> 
>> In order to submit a PR which has any chance of being accepted, you have
>> to make sure it is submitted against the HEAD of the appropriate branch.
>> Whilst you can certainly checkout just the IDE repository, and then
>> redirect the Toolset folder from within a LiveCode distribution to use it -
>> you might find it does not work as the engine version required to run that
>> version of the Toolset (from the HEAD of the branch) might be 'newer' (and
>> as-yet unavailable as a built distribution to download) than that which you
>> have.
>> 
>> To cut a long story short: right now I'd strongly advise against thinking
>> of the engine and IDE as separate things if you want to contribute to the
>> LiveCode project because for the most part they are too mutually dependent.
>> As it stands, you really need to build the LiveCode repo from source on
>> your chosen development platform - as that's the only way you can guarantee
>> that you can submit patches against the current HEAD of any of the branches.
>> 
>> Warmest Regards,
>> 
>> Mark.
>> 
>> --
>> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
>> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
>> 
>> 
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Re: Contributing to the IDE

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2018-04-20 10:29, Geoff Canyon via use-livecode wrote:

Thanks for the clear rationale. I'll take a shot at building the whole
thing tomorrow.


I should have mentioned in my post (although I think Monte made it 
clear) that docs can be done entirely on GitHub. Doc entries are a 
special case because they:


  1) Are largely independent of everything else

  2) Are mark-down like structure (and so can be previewed easily 
enough)


  3) Are validated by our CI system when you submit the PR.

And Panos noticed that the version on the contributing to docs guide was 
wrong - I'm sure you'll see that change shortly :)



Two questions:

1. Are older versions closed to changes? If I find a bug in LC 8.1.8 
(or
some update to it) is it pointless to fix the bug and submit a pull 
request?


So the rule is that we only maintain (i.e. will only release builds 
from) two branches at any one time.


Right now 9 is in maintenance mode (develop-9.0) and 9.1 is the next 
development version (develop).


Bug fixes should be applied against the current maintenance branch 
(develop-9.0), additions/features and such should be applied agains the 
current development branch (develop).



2. Is it fair to submit IDE pull requests the same way I might for the
documentation? I.E., GitHub was perfectly happy to fork 
https://github.com/

livecode/livecode-ide/edit/develop/Toolset/palettes/menubar/revmenubar.
livecodescript for me, so it seems that if I update it, I could submit 
a
pull request for it, without having built anything. Obviously that 
beheads
a significant fraction of git's functionality, but it gets the job 
done,

correct?


Yes - you can - although I'd be wary of errors creeping in from doing it 
that way (validating lc-docs is easy, validating code changes is very 
very hard).


I guess for very very very minor tweaks you can copy-paste the code 
you've tried into the github text file editor in the appropriate place, 
and submit a PR. However, if those tweaks then need further work, you 
then have to get that revision onto your machine and then re-tweak.


In the long run, though, that approach is only likely to cause things to 
take longer and cause frustration on both sides.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Contributing to the IDE

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 1:08 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> What you are asking for is slightly different: "How do I make it so that I
> can modify the IDE in a pre-built distribution and submit patches/PR from
> that".
>
> The main issue here (and perhaps the only issue) is that the HEAD versions
> of the version branches (release-* branches for specific releases,
> develop-* for the frontier of maintenance releases and develop for the next
> release) in the three main community repositories are all mutually
> dependent to a greater or lesser degree. Whilst you can try and use the
> develop HEAD version of the IDE with an engine built from develop-9.0 or
> earlier, the reality is that it might not work.


​Sorry, one other point: yes, you are correct, working from a pre-built
distribution is exactly the question I was asking, and if the only issue is
syncing the IDE files with the development versions, that seems like a
small issue: many of the files at
https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/tree/develop/Toolset/libraries are
months to years from their last update. Ditto for
https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/tree/develop/Toolset/palettes/script%20editor/behaviors.
That
makes it seem as though it would absolutely be possible to work on the IDE
in the current 9.x release, with the caveat that merge conflicts would be
*slightly* more likely. ​

Or am I missing something?

Thanks again,

gc
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Re: Contributing to the IDE

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

Thanks, I'm going to give this a shot, probably tomorrow.

gc

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 8:17 PM, Brian Milby via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I will add that building from source is not that hard for Mac or Linux
> (have not tried Windows). I didn’t know what platform you were using which
> is why I referenced the Readme since it had a section with links for each
> one.
>
> If you run into specific issues getting things set up then we can probably
> help.
> On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 9:40 PM Monte Goulding via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Hmm… OK Geoff, sorry for being flippant and causing a rant!
> >
> > I must admit I don’t know anything about GitKracken. I used to use
> > SourceTree which I found quite reasonable, however, once working for the
> LC
> > team I found it too slow and hard to do some of the more complicated
> things
> > like interactive rebasing so I moved to command line.
> >
> > > None of it comes close to describing the steps necessary to set up on
> my
> > computer to contribute.
> >
> > The issue I think you are bumping in to is you only really want to
> > contribute to the IDE, however, to do so you really need to build
> livecode
> > from source so you can work on the IDE directly in the respository.
> Because
> > of that the notes linked in the README.md about building LC on different
> > platforms under the section `Detailed instructions` are really what you
> are
> > looking for. https://github.com/livecode/livecode#detailed-instructions
> <
> > https://github.com/livecode/livecode#detailed-instructions>
> > >
> > > it offers nothing useful to figuring out how to set up to contribute.
> >
> > Yes it does. See above ^.
> > >
> > > I ran into this same problem when I started to put Navigator into
> > GitHub: the GitHub documentation is absolutely abysmal. In that instance,
> > the blame lies with literally everyone associated with Git and GitHub,
> but
> > in the case of wanting to contribute to the LC IDE, the buck stops with
> the
> > LC crew. I have asked others who are decades-long LC developers for
> > guidance, and found that they don't understand how to contribute. That
> > holds back development of LC and the IDE.
> >
> > OK, well we’d like to do better in this regard, however, we do tend to
> run
> > into the problem that a large chunk of our experienced LC developers have
> > no interest in reading about git or github. The very best thing you can
> do
> > before anything else is understand git. There is bucket loads of freely
> > available information online. This is a great free book
> > https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2 <https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2>
> > >
> > > To be clear: reasonable documentation for contributing to the IDE would
> > include a section something like:
> > >
> > > 1. Create an account on GitHub. Follow the guidelines mentioned
> > elsewhere in this documentation.
> >
> > OK, this has presumably been seen as assumed knowledge til now… and/or
> > GitHub’s responsibility do document how to use GitHub. I’m sure we can
> add
> > something though!
> >
> > > 2. (optional) Install the graphic Git client of your choice (a list of
> > possibilities is included at the bottom of this documentation).
> >
> > The problem here is there are lots of graphic git clients. All look
> > different. Ali has spent quite some time documenting how to contribute
> via
> > GitHub’s web interface.
> >
> > > 3. Determine which version of LC you want to contribute to. Note that
> > only contributions to  are being accepted at present.
> >
> > See
> > https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/
> CONTRIBUTING.md#branches-in-github
> > <
> > https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/
> CONTRIBUTING.md#branches-in-github
> > >
> > > 4. Clone the repository for the LC version you have selected to your
> > local drive.
> >
> > Yes, I agree there’s some missing bits here on forking on github, cloning
> > and setting up the clone. I can give command line instructions and or
> write
> > a script for you to run.
> >
> > Basically we use multiple repositories to build LiveCode. Ignoring the
> > commercial repositories that only the team have access to the structure
> is:
> >
> > livecode
> >ide -> livecode-ide
> >thirdparty -> livecode-thirdparty
> >
> > Most of the ide stacks are in the livecode-ide rep

Re: Contributing to the IDE

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

Thanks for the clear rationale. I'll take a shot at building the whole
thing tomorrow.

Two questions:

1. Are older versions closed to changes? If I find a bug in LC 8.1.8 (or
some update to it) is it pointless to fix the bug and submit a pull request?
2. Is it fair to submit IDE pull requests the same way I might for the
documentation? I.E., GitHub was perfectly happy to fork https://github.com/
livecode/livecode-ide/edit/develop/Toolset/palettes/menubar/revmenubar.
livecodescript for me, so it seems that if I update it, I could submit a
pull request for it, without having built anything. Obviously that beheads
a significant fraction of git's functionality, but it gets the job done,
correct?

Thanks,

gc

On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 1:08 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 2018-04-17 03:44, Geoff Canyon via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> Are there instructions available somewhere on how to set up the IDE in
>> GitHub so I can make changes and submit pull requests?
>>
>
> Not in the way you are trying to - no.
>
> Pretty much all our documentation is centered around the initial step
> which is getting the entire LiveCode system (engine and IDE) to build from
> source first. The main docs for that start in the LiveCode repo README -
> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/README.md.
>
> What you are asking for is slightly different: "How do I make it so that I
> can modify the IDE in a pre-built distribution and submit patches/PR from
> that".
>
> The main issue here (and perhaps the only issue) is that the HEAD versions
> of the version branches (release-* branches for specific releases,
> develop-* for the frontier of maintenance releases and develop for the next
> release) in the three main community repositories are all mutually
> dependent to a greater or lesser degree. Whilst you can try and use the
> develop HEAD version of the IDE with an engine built from develop-9.0 or
> earlier, the reality is that it might not work.
>
> Whilst it would be really really nice to have the IDE completely
> independent of a given engine version, that is still a dream we are quite a
> way from realizing.
>
> In order to submit a PR which has any chance of being accepted, you have
> to make sure it is submitted against the HEAD of the appropriate branch.
> Whilst you can certainly checkout just the IDE repository, and then
> redirect the Toolset folder from within a LiveCode distribution to use it -
> you might find it does not work as the engine version required to run that
> version of the Toolset (from the HEAD of the branch) might be 'newer' (and
> as-yet unavailable as a built distribution to download) than that which you
> have.
>
> To cut a long story short: right now I'd strongly advise against thinking
> of the engine and IDE as separate things if you want to contribute to the
> LiveCode project because for the most part they are too mutually dependent.
> As it stands, you really need to build the LiveCode repo from source on
> your chosen development platform - as that's the only way you can guarantee
> that you can submit patches against the current HEAD of any of the branches.
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Mark.
>
> --
> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
>
>
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> subscription preferences:
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Re: Contributing to the IDE

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

Thanks, on the basis of this document I *think* I was able to submit a pull
request for an update to the documentation for the itemOffset function.
We'll see if that's what I really did, and if successfully so.

I'd highly recommend removing/updating the reference to a specific version
in this document. It points to LC 8.2, which is over 4,000 commits behind,
making it somewhat likely that pull requests based on updates to it will
fail. Instead, it should (I think?) be pointing to
https://github.com/livecode/livecode/tree/develop/docs/dictionary

But again, I could be failing at this completely.

Again, thanks!

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 8:30 PM, Monte Goulding via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I also just remembered that much of the information that you may find
> helpful is in the contributing to docs page which you may not have read if
> your interest is in source contributions. https://github.com/livecode/
> livecode/blob/develop/docs/contributing_to_docs.md <
> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/docs/
> contributing_to_docs.md>
>
> I’m thinking we would do well to reorganise this doc by moving the docs
> style stuff to the docs style guide and the rest into a more general (not
> just about docs) your first PR doc.
>
> > On 20 Apr 2018, at 12:39 pm, Monte Goulding via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hmm… OK Geoff, sorry for being flippant and causing a rant!
>
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Re: Contributing to the IDE

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2018-04-17 03:44, Geoff Canyon via use-livecode wrote:

Are there instructions available somewhere on how to set up the IDE in
GitHub so I can make changes and submit pull requests?


Not in the way you are trying to - no.

Pretty much all our documentation is centered around the initial step 
which is getting the entire LiveCode system (engine and IDE) to build 
from source first. The main docs for that start in the LiveCode repo 
README -https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/README.md.


What you are asking for is slightly different: "How do I make it so that 
I can modify the IDE in a pre-built distribution and submit patches/PR 
from that".


The main issue here (and perhaps the only issue) is that the HEAD 
versions of the version branches (release-* branches for specific 
releases, develop-* for the frontier of maintenance releases and develop 
for the next release) in the three main community repositories are all 
mutually dependent to a greater or lesser degree. Whilst you can try and 
use the develop HEAD version of the IDE with an engine built from 
develop-9.0 or earlier, the reality is that it might not work.


Whilst it would be really really nice to have the IDE completely 
independent of a given engine version, that is still a dream we are 
quite a way from realizing.


In order to submit a PR which has any chance of being accepted, you have 
to make sure it is submitted against the HEAD of the appropriate branch. 
Whilst you can certainly checkout just the IDE repository, and then 
redirect the Toolset folder from within a LiveCode distribution to use 
it - you might find it does not work as the engine version required to 
run that version of the Toolset (from the HEAD of the branch) might be 
'newer' (and as-yet unavailable as a built distribution to download) 
than that which you have.


To cut a long story short: right now I'd strongly advise against 
thinking of the engine and IDE as separate things if you want to 
contribute to the LiveCode project because for the most part they are 
too mutually dependent. As it stands, you really need to build the 
LiveCode repo from source on your chosen development platform - as 
that's the only way you can guarantee that you can submit patches 
against the current HEAD of any of the branches.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Contributing to the IDE

[Monte Goulding via use-livecode]

I also just remembered that much of the information that you may find helpful 
is in the contributing to docs page which you may not have read if your 
interest is in source contributions. 
https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/docs/contributing_to_docs.md 


I’m thinking we would do well to reorganise this doc by moving the docs style 
stuff to the docs style guide and the rest into a more general (not just about 
docs) your first PR doc.

> On 20 Apr 2018, at 12:39 pm, Monte Goulding via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hmm… OK Geoff, sorry for being flippant and causing a rant!

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Re: Contributing to the IDE

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

I will add that building from source is not that hard for Mac or Linux
(have not tried Windows). I didn’t know what platform you were using which
is why I referenced the Readme since it had a section with links for each
one.

If you run into specific issues getting things set up then we can probably
help.
On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 9:40 PM Monte Goulding via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hmm… OK Geoff, sorry for being flippant and causing a rant!
>
> I must admit I don’t know anything about GitKracken. I used to use
> SourceTree which I found quite reasonable, however, once working for the LC
> team I found it too slow and hard to do some of the more complicated things
> like interactive rebasing so I moved to command line.
>
> > None of it comes close to describing the steps necessary to set up on my
> computer to contribute.
>
> The issue I think you are bumping in to is you only really want to
> contribute to the IDE, however, to do so you really need to build livecode
> from source so you can work on the IDE directly in the respository. Because
> of that the notes linked in the README.md about building LC on different
> platforms under the section `Detailed instructions` are really what you are
> looking for. https://github.com/livecode/livecode#detailed-instructions <
> https://github.com/livecode/livecode#detailed-instructions>
> >
> > it offers nothing useful to figuring out how to set up to contribute.
>
> Yes it does. See above ^.
> >
> > I ran into this same problem when I started to put Navigator into
> GitHub: the GitHub documentation is absolutely abysmal. In that instance,
> the blame lies with literally everyone associated with Git and GitHub, but
> in the case of wanting to contribute to the LC IDE, the buck stops with the
> LC crew. I have asked others who are decades-long LC developers for
> guidance, and found that they don't understand how to contribute. That
> holds back development of LC and the IDE.
>
> OK, well we’d like to do better in this regard, however, we do tend to run
> into the problem that a large chunk of our experienced LC developers have
> no interest in reading about git or github. The very best thing you can do
> before anything else is understand git. There is bucket loads of freely
> available information online. This is a great free book
> https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2 <https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2>
> >
> > To be clear: reasonable documentation for contributing to the IDE would
> include a section something like:
> >
> > 1. Create an account on GitHub. Follow the guidelines mentioned
> elsewhere in this documentation.
>
> OK, this has presumably been seen as assumed knowledge til now… and/or
> GitHub’s responsibility do document how to use GitHub. I’m sure we can add
> something though!
>
> > 2. (optional) Install the graphic Git client of your choice (a list of
> possibilities is included at the bottom of this documentation).
>
> The problem here is there are lots of graphic git clients. All look
> different. Ali has spent quite some time documenting how to contribute via
> GitHub’s web interface.
>
> > 3. Determine which version of LC you want to contribute to. Note that
> only contributions to  are being accepted at present.
>
> See
> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/CONTRIBUTING.md#branches-in-github
> <
> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/CONTRIBUTING.md#branches-in-github
> >
> > 4. Clone the repository for the LC version you have selected to your
> local drive.
>
> Yes, I agree there’s some missing bits here on forking on github, cloning
> and setting up the clone. I can give command line instructions and or write
> a script for you to run.
>
> Basically we use multiple repositories to build LiveCode. Ignoring the
> commercial repositories that only the team have access to the structure is:
>
> livecode
>ide -> livecode-ide
>thirdparty -> livecode-thirdparty
>
> Most of the ide stacks are in the livecode-ide repository, however, there
> are some in the ide-support folder of the livecode repository and we are
> gradually moving as many modular libraries as possible to the
> extensions/script-libraries folder of the livecode repository.
>
> The thirdparty repository is something that anyone outside the team is
> unlikely to need to patch so we can ignore that for now.
>
> So to work on the ide you really need to fork both
> https://github.com/livecode/livecode <https://github.com/livecode/livecode>
> and https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide <
> https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide>
>
> From there you need to do the equivalent of the foll

Re: Contributing to the IDE

[Monte Goulding via use-livecode]

Hmm… OK Geoff, sorry for being flippant and causing a rant!

I must admit I don’t know anything about GitKracken. I used to use SourceTree 
which I found quite reasonable, however, once working for the LC team I found 
it too slow and hard to do some of the more complicated things like interactive 
rebasing so I moved to command line.

> None of it comes close to describing the steps necessary to set up on my 
> computer to contribute.

The issue I think you are bumping in to is you only really want to contribute 
to the IDE, however, to do so you really need to build livecode from source so 
you can work on the IDE directly in the respository. Because of that the notes 
linked in the README.md about building LC on different platforms under the 
section `Detailed instructions` are really what you are looking for. 
https://github.com/livecode/livecode#detailed-instructions 
<https://github.com/livecode/livecode#detailed-instructions>
> 
> it offers nothing useful to figuring out how to set up to contribute.

Yes it does. See above ^.
> 
> I ran into this same problem when I started to put Navigator into GitHub: the 
> GitHub documentation is absolutely abysmal. In that instance, the blame lies 
> with literally everyone associated with Git and GitHub, but in the case of 
> wanting to contribute to the LC IDE, the buck stops with the LC crew. I have 
> asked others who are decades-long LC developers for guidance, and found that 
> they don't understand how to contribute. That holds back development of LC 
> and the IDE.

OK, well we’d like to do better in this regard, however, we do tend to run into 
the problem that a large chunk of our experienced LC developers have no 
interest in reading about git or github. The very best thing you can do before 
anything else is understand git. There is bucket loads of freely available 
information online. This is a great free book https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2 
<https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2>
> 
> To be clear: reasonable documentation for contributing to the IDE would 
> include a section something like:
> 
> 1. Create an account on GitHub. Follow the guidelines mentioned elsewhere in 
> this documentation.

OK, this has presumably been seen as assumed knowledge til now… and/or GitHub’s 
responsibility do document how to use GitHub. I’m sure we can add something 
though!

> 2. (optional) Install the graphic Git client of your choice (a list of 
> possibilities is included at the bottom of this documentation).

The problem here is there are lots of graphic git clients. All look different. 
Ali has spent quite some time documenting how to contribute via GitHub’s web 
interface.

> 3. Determine which version of LC you want to contribute to. Note that only 
> contributions to  are being accepted at present.

See 
https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/CONTRIBUTING.md#branches-in-github
 
<https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/CONTRIBUTING.md#branches-in-github>
> 4. Clone the repository for the LC version you have selected to your local 
> drive.

Yes, I agree there’s some missing bits here on forking on github, cloning and 
setting up the clone. I can give command line instructions and or write a 
script for you to run.

Basically we use multiple repositories to build LiveCode. Ignoring the 
commercial repositories that only the team have access to the structure is:

livecode
   ide -> livecode-ide
   thirdparty -> livecode-thirdparty

Most of the ide stacks are in the livecode-ide repository, however, there are 
some in the ide-support folder of the livecode repository and we are gradually 
moving as many modular libraries as possible to the extensions/script-libraries 
folder of the livecode repository.

The thirdparty repository is something that anyone outside the team is unlikely 
to need to patch so we can ignore that for now.

So to work on the ide you really need to fork both 
https://github.com/livecode/livecode <https://github.com/livecode/livecode> and 
https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide 
<https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide>

From there you need to do the equivalent of the following in your git client:

git clone —recursive https://github.com//livecode.git 
<https://github.com/%3Cyourgithubusername%3E/livecode.git>

This is basically downloading the source folder and it’s history into a folder 
named livecode.

Once that is complete then there are a few changes to make to get setup:

cd livecode
git remote add upstream https://github.com/livecode/livecode.git 
<https://github.com/livecode/livecode.git>
cd ide
git remote rename origin upstream
git remote add origin https://github.com//livecode.git 
<https://github.com/%3Cyourgithubusername%3E/livecode.git> 
<https://github.com/%3Cyourgithubusername%3E/livecode.git>/livecode.git

Now you are ready to follow the configure and build instruct

Re: Contributing to the IDE

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

I have to admit, this is very frustrating. I *have* read both documents
referenced, and neither comes close to answering my question. I remember
reading those documents, or their ancestors, when LC first went open
source, and I would likely have started contributing to the IDE then except
they were no more clear then than now.

Let's start with
https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/CONTRIBUTING.md, which
does not include the word "IDE" anywhere in it. Really, the only
information it contains that is remotely relevant to my question is:

"The LiveCode workflow is a typical git workflow, where contributors fork
the livecode/livecode repository, make their changes on a branch, and then
submit a pull request."

From what I have read, there is no such thing as a "typical git workflow."
Git is designed to be flexible, and there are as many workflows as there
are git users.

And:

"You should base your changes on an appropriate branch: "

None of it comes close to describing the steps necessary to set up on my
computer to contribute.

The other document,
https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/README.md, describes
LiveCode, and is not even about contributing. Apart from mentioning:

"engine/ — The main LiveCode engine. This directory produces the IDE,
"standalone", "installer" and "server" engines"

it offers nothing useful to figuring out how to set up to contribute.

I ran into this same problem when I started to put Navigator into GitHub:
the GitHub documentation is absolutely abysmal. In that instance, the blame
lies with literally everyone associated with Git and GitHub, but in the
case of wanting to contribute to the LC IDE, the buck stops with the LC
crew. I have asked others who are decades-long LC developers for guidance,
and found that they don't understand how to contribute. That holds back
development of LC and the IDE.

To be clear: reasonable documentation for contributing to the IDE would
include a section something like:

1. Create an account on GitHub. Follow the guidelines mentioned elsewhere
in this documentation.
2. (optional) Install the graphic Git client of your choice (a list of
possibilities is included at the bottom of this documentation).
3. Determine which version of LC you want to contribute to. Note that only
contributions to  are being accepted at present.
4. Clone the repository for the LC version you have selected to your local
drive. Save it to your Applications folder. Do not overwrite your working
copy of LiveCode.
5. You will need to follow these additional steps to make that repository
functional:
...
6. License the copy of LC included in the repository.
7. Make whatever changes to the IDE you wish. Note that you must segment
your changes in individual branches; if you lump a large number of changes
in one branch, your updates will almost certainly be rejected.
8. When you have a branch ready to merge into the production copy of
LiveCode, issue a pull request. Please follow the documentation
descriptions listed below; if we can't understand your change, it will be
rejected.

To be more clear, I have no idea if the above is the correct sequence of
steps. That's the problem I'm trying to solve, and neither of the
referenced documents, nor any admonishment to study them in greater detail,
will solve it.



On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 3:10 PM, Monte Goulding via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Just a guessing based on your response that you possibly didn’t read the
> docs that you asked for and Brian responded with ;-)
>
> > On 20 Apr 2018, at 5:43 am, Geoff Canyon via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > I have GitKraken; is it as simple as initializing a new repository
> > in /Applications/LiveCode Indy 8.1.8.app/Contents/Tools/
> Toolset/libraries?
>
>
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Re: Contributing to the IDE

[Monte Goulding via use-livecode]

Just a guessing based on your response that you possibly didn’t read the docs 
that you asked for and Brian responded with ;-)

> On 20 Apr 2018, at 5:43 am, Geoff Canyon via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have GitKraken; is it as simple as initializing a new repository
> in /Applications/LiveCode Indy 8.1.8.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries?


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Re: Contributing to the IDE

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

I have GitKraken; is it as simple as initializing a new repository
in /Applications/LiveCode Indy 8.1.8.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries?

On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 7:48 PM, Brian Milby  wrote:

> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/CONTRIBUTING.md
>
> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/README.md
>
> Those two docs have most of what you will need. If you have purchased
> LiveCode Global 2018 then you can watch the talk I gave last month on
> setting up your system to build from source (Linux was the demo).
>
> Once you have the repo on your seat, you can branch and make any changes
> required and do a PR. Just be sure to keep straight which project you are
> in. The IDE is separate and most of the stuff related to the IDE is in that
> sub project. I find it easier to just do everything in a branch and build
> from source to check my work - even when working on widgets. I do have a
> stack I use to check dictionary updates though (but it doesn’t check that
> examples compile... need to get that included at some point).
>
> Brian
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 8:45 PM Geoff Canyon via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> Are there instructions available somewhere on how to set up the IDE in
>> GitHub so I can make changes and submit pull requests?
>>
>> gc
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Re: Contributing to the IDE

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/CONTRIBUTING.md

https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/README.md

Those two docs have most of what you will need. If you have purchased
LiveCode Global 2018 then you can watch the talk I gave last month on
setting up your system to build from source (Linux was the demo).

Once you have the repo on your seat, you can branch and make any changes
required and do a PR. Just be sure to keep straight which project you are
in. The IDE is separate and most of the stuff related to the IDE is in that
sub project. I find it easier to just do everything in a branch and build
from source to check my work - even when working on widgets. I do have a
stack I use to check dictionary updates though (but it doesn’t check that
examples compile... need to get that included at some point).

Brian
On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 8:45 PM Geoff Canyon via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Are there instructions available somewhere on how to set up the IDE in
> GitHub so I can make changes and submit pull requests?
>
> gc
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Contributing to the IDE

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

Are there instructions available somewhere on how to set up the IDE in GitHub 
so I can make changes and submit pull requests?

gc
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