RE: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-26 Thread J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
The problem was the lack of any mouseUp message at all when swiping 
horizontally, making it impossible to swipe for navigation over a scroller. 
We used a kludgy workaround, but the problem has been fixed now, so the 
next update can be completely cross platform without any diversions.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On August 26, 2020 9:25:55 AM Ralph DiMola via use-livecode 
 wrote:



J,

I take it you referring to the premature mouse "down/up"s you get with
Android while perusing in a native scroller.




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RE: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-26 Thread Ralph DiMola via use-livecode
J,

I take it you referring to the premature mouse "down/up"s you get with
Android while perusing in a native scroller. This is not a problem for me in
iOS. I put in a simple timer and it does not adversely affect iOS(or affect
it in any way) but does make the scrolling in Android work as expected. If
my supposition is correct I'm just wondering why you do it only for Android?

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net

-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 3:08 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: J. Landman Gay
Subject: Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

On August 25, 2020 7:47:00 PM "Sean Cole \(Pi\) via use-livecode" 
 wrote:
>

> The projects deadline was Monday morning, which was completed. It 
> doesn't take away from the fact that next time I will face it all 
> again because LC won't fix the fundamentals. They don't live up to 
> their promises. They LIE (Jacque won't accept it, but they make many 
> claims on their site and to me in person that simply are proven 
> false). I'm just tired of people making me out to be irrelevant and any
claim I make to be false.

I don't think you're either irrelevant or incorrect, I only object to the
disrespect you've shown for people who work hard to bring us the tool we
love and depend on. Any bugs you found are certainly based in fact, as
you've shown. But there are much better ways to express discontent than what
we've seen here. I also understand that you are battling some personal
issues that may be out of your control, for which I am very sorry. But you
can't expect warm replies to rants that are hurtful to the very people who
attempt to help. Remember when we were worried about you and took up a fund
to help? You got mad at us for that too.

As for "code once, run anywhere," I've recently completed two apps in four
different flavors. I did not need to make any adjustments between the Mac
and Windows apps, or between the iOS and Android apps with one exception for
the native scroller on Android. And because the two products were siimilar
in many ways (one inspired the other,) I could re-use about 70% of the
desktop code to create the mobile apps.

Two mobile apps with identical code bases, except for native Android
scroller:
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1517450678
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.friendshippress.wordathand

Mac and Windows apps with identical code bases:
https://thinkingstrings.com/interactive-explorations/  (click product titles
to see screenshots) And the mobile versions:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.thinkingstrings.tsmobile
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1496668393

There is one more thing that differs between Android and iOS apps, and
that's native appearance. Your font issue is similar to this. My mobile
products each contain a handler I call "setupUI" which adjusts the
appearance of all controls to conform to the platform's GUI. It sets the
properties of all buttons, fields, text, etc., whatever is necessary to make
the app look as expected for the OS. It's a long handler and I add to it as
I do the initial layout. Then I run the handler manually from the message
box before doing the build for each mobile platform. This is all cosmetic
work, and I don't consider it part of the code base because it isn't what
runs my apps. It just makes them look right. It's an automated way to switch
between iOS and Android appearance, with the advantage of allowing me to
flip between the two GUIs quickly during developent.

I generally don't need to do that for desktop apps, because LC handles most
of the GUI issues for me. The fact that you've found an edge case is
probably why you're so angry; we get spoiled because we take it for granted
that LC is going to do it all for us. The link Mark gave us explains the
reason (and though the author is working with HTML, the reason behind the
problem does apply to LC as well. It isn't as irrelevant as you thought.)

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software |
http://www.hyperactivesw.com



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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-26 Thread Richard Gaskin via use-livecode

J. Landman Gay wrote:
> Any bugs you found are certainly based in fact, as you've shown.

That an anomaly is evident is known. The cause and possible remedies, 
however, remain open questions.


Though I briefly dabbled in sending hand-written Postscript to my laser 
printer back in the day (who didn't? Postscript was the future!), I've 
only briefly skimmed the file formats for Postscript and TrueType, and 
of course anyone lacking technical depth in this specialty will be at a 
disadvantage in diagnosing this.


So while I can't presume to know the inner details of what's in play 
here, it may be worth considering Mark Waddingham's input.  There's at 
least some indication he's familiar with how computers work, and he 
knows a thing or two about the internals of LiveCode. :)


Mark had suggested there may be elements within the font file itself 
which can be adjusted to improve rendering across different systems, 
specifically with regard to baseline differences on Windows:

http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2020-August/261448.html

A quick search to see how others deal with similar issues yielded a 
corroborating suggestion, described here:


   "One possible solution could be to download the Cutive font (I see
   it has a SIL license) and then run it through the Font Squirrel
   font-face generator. In 'Expert' mode there is an option to 'Fix
   Vertical Metrics' which might be what you are looking for."

And:

   "I came across this problem with a custom font that had been created
   for a client's brand. I opened the TTF font in Font Forge. The way I
   created uniformity with rendering was to adjust the values in
   Element->Font Info->OS/2->Metrics.
   
   I have very limited knowledge about fonts but this did fix my
   problem.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/11726442/font-rendering-line-height-issue-on-mac-pc-outside-of-element

I can't help but wonder if guidance from experienced people who've 
considered this issue in depth may be worth exploring...




If for some reason making the custom font file more complete is 
prohibitive, LC is flexible enough to compensate in just one line by 
adjusting the margins property where needed:


 if the platform is Win32 then set the margins of btn "Label" to 4,8,4,4

Set the adjustment of the second (top) item to whatever you need and 
you're back in business in just a few seconds.


Of course that's just a quick workaround to keep production work on 
schedule at near-zero cost to any project that may need it.


For the longer term, if adding the Win-specific metrics others have 
found success with doesn't resolve this problem, let's explore it further.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-26 Thread J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
On August 25, 2020 7:47:00 PM "Sean Cole \(Pi\) via use-livecode" 
 wrote:





The projects deadline was Monday morning, which was completed. It doesn't
take away from the fact that next time I will face it all again because LC
won't fix the fundamentals. They don't live up to their promises. They LIE
(Jacque won't accept it, but they make many claims on their site and to me
in person that simply are proven false). I'm just tired of people making me
out to be irrelevant and any claim I make to be false.


I don't think you're either irrelevant or incorrect, I only object to the 
disrespect you've shown for people who work hard to bring us the tool we 
love and depend on. Any bugs you found are certainly based in fact, as 
you've shown. But there are much better ways to express discontent than 
what we've seen here. I also understand that you are battling some personal 
issues that may be out of your control, for which I am very sorry. But you 
can't expect warm replies to rants that are hurtful to the very people who 
attempt to help. Remember when we were worried about you and took up a fund 
to help? You got mad at us for that too.


As for "code once, run anywhere," I've recently completed two apps in four 
different flavors. I did not need to make any adjustments between the Mac 
and Windows apps, or between the iOS and Android apps with one exception 
for the native scroller on Android. And because the two products were 
siimilar in many ways (one inspired the other,) I could re-use about 70% of 
the desktop code to create the mobile apps.


Two mobile apps with identical code bases, except for native Android scroller:
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1517450678
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.friendshippress.wordathand

Mac and Windows apps with identical code bases:
https://thinkingstrings.com/interactive-explorations/  (click product 
titles to see screenshots)

And the mobile versions:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.thinkingstrings.tsmobile
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1496668393

There is one more thing that differs between Android and iOS apps, and 
that's native appearance. Your font issue is similar to this. My mobile 
products each contain a handler I call "setupUI" which adjusts the 
appearance of all controls to conform to the platform's GUI. It sets the 
properties of all buttons, fields, text, etc., whatever is necessary to 
make the app look as expected for the OS. It's a long handler and I add to 
it as I do the initial layout. Then I run the handler manually from the 
message box before doing the build for each mobile platform. This is all 
cosmetic work, and I don't consider it part of the code base because it 
isn't what runs my apps. It just makes them look right. It's an automated 
way to switch between iOS and Android appearance, with the advantage of 
allowing me to flip between the two GUIs quickly during developent.


I generally don't need to do that for desktop apps, because LC handles most 
of the GUI issues for me. The fact that you've found an edge case is 
probably why you're so angry; we get spoiled because we take it for granted 
that LC is going to do it all for us. The link Mark gave us explains the 
reason (and though the author is working with HTML, the reason behind the 
problem does apply to LC as well. It isn't as irrelevant as you thought.)


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode
I’ll chime in on this issue — for the benefit of others who may be wondering 
what is going on in this list.

All existing bugs in LiveCode going back to the distant past could possibly be 
fixed, and display discrepancies resolved, if LiveCode the company dramatically 
increased its revenue from getting a gazzilion more users, tuppling license 
fees, and maybe dramatically cutting expenses by firing all its employees to 
hire programmers in India. Until that happens, we use LiveCode’s flexibility to 
come up with solutions to problems. This is done all the time.

And LC advertises one code base. Technically this is true. “If the platform is 
Mac then do this, if it is Windows then do that.” That works for me as one code 
base for Mac and Windows without creating different code versions.

I have a text-heavy application where font appearance is critical for both 
English and Chinese characters. Just now I added a routine to change in Windows 
Chinese:

1.  modify the HTMLtext of a field to replace instances of Songti SC Regular 
(Mac) with SimSun (Windows)
2. remove paragraph indentions of 8 space characters of Songti SC Regular text 
and instead set the firstIndent of the line to 34
3. set the spaceBelow of each line to match the Mac line spacing

all on the fly as the text loads from an array for each page turn. It’s fast 
and the Chinese translator in China says that it now looks beautiful, when 
before it looked like garbage.

I could curse the darkness, or just program a light bulb and move on.

Peter Bogdanoff


> On Aug 25, 2020, at 8:53 PM, JB via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Chill, dude?
> ok, one of the cool things about LiveCode is instead of writing
> your program in Swift, Jave, or C, etc. is that you can easily
> include any of these languages in a LiveCode app.  I don’t
> know of another programming tool that allows you to do that
> and do it on various os’s.  Xcode allows you to mix objective-c
> with Swift by bridging it but LiveCode does it better.
> 
> We can only work with what we have available, things are
> changing fast and sometimes it is difficult to keep up no
> matter how hard you work on it.
> 
> JB
> 
> 
>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 8:39 PM, Stephen Barncard via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Sean Cole
>> 
>> Still no apologies.
>> Hey, you are starting to disrespect my friends and I’m not digging it. They
>> have done nothing other than bend over backwards to try to help and your
>> bad attitude and rudeness is crossing the line.
>> 
>> Remember the main rule here, no politics, religion or cheese and you,
>> buddy, have gone full limburger.
>> 
>> Chill, dude.
>> 
>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 17:51 Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Reminds me of HTML. All platform consistency in display… until Microsoft
>>> and Netscape decided to do it “better”. It begs the question, is it better
>>> to be consistent with everyone else’s standards, or better to be… well…
>>> better?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Bob S
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 5:40 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Yes, we all remember the TrueType rollout, and the promise of a
>>> single-file, cross-platform font definition.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> But for that format to provide pixel-perfect matched rendering requires
>>> all renderer implementers to use the same code.  And as you know, they
>>> don't.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> 
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> 
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>>> 
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> 
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> 
>>> --
>> --
>> Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
>> mixstream.org
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> 
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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread JB via use-livecode
Chill, dude?
ok, one of the cool things about LiveCode is instead of writing
your program in Swift, Jave, or C, etc. is that you can easily
include any of these languages in a LiveCode app.  I don’t
know of another programming tool that allows you to do that
and do it on various os’s.  Xcode allows you to mix objective-c
with Swift by bridging it but LiveCode does it better.

We can only work with what we have available, things are
changing fast and sometimes it is difficult to keep up no
matter how hard you work on it.

JB


> On Aug 25, 2020, at 8:39 PM, Stephen Barncard via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Sean Cole
> 
> Still no apologies.
> Hey, you are starting to disrespect my friends and I’m not digging it. They
> have done nothing other than bend over backwards to try to help and your
> bad attitude and rudeness is crossing the line.
> 
> Remember the main rule here, no politics, religion or cheese and you,
> buddy, have gone full limburger.
> 
> Chill, dude.
> 
>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 17:51 Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Reminds me of HTML. All platform consistency in display… until Microsoft
>> and Netscape decided to do it “better”. It begs the question, is it better
>> to be consistent with everyone else’s standards, or better to be… well…
>> better?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 5:40 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Yes, we all remember the TrueType rollout, and the promise of a
>> single-file, cross-platform font definition.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> But for that format to provide pixel-perfect matched rendering requires
>> all renderer implementers to use the same code.  And as you know, they
>> don't.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> 
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> 
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>> 
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> 
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> --
> --
> Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
> mixstream.org
> ___
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> preferences:
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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Stephen Barncard via use-livecode
Sean Cole

Still no apologies.
Hey, you are starting to disrespect my friends and I’m not digging it. They
have done nothing other than bend over backwards to try to help and your
bad attitude and rudeness is crossing the line.

Remember the main rule here, no politics, religion or cheese and you,
buddy, have gone full limburger.

Chill, dude.

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 17:51 Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Reminds me of HTML. All platform consistency in display… until Microsoft
> and Netscape decided to do it “better”. It begs the question, is it better
> to be consistent with everyone else’s standards, or better to be… well…
> better?
>
>
>
> Bob S
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 25, 2020, at 5:40 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Yes, we all remember the TrueType rollout, and the promise of a
> single-file, cross-platform font definition.
>
>
>
> But for that format to provide pixel-perfect matched rendering requires
> all renderer implementers to use the same code.  And as you know, they
> don't.
>
>
>
> ___
>
> use-livecode mailing list
>
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
>
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> --
--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org
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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Rather than puke all over my keyboard, I am now forced to make a rule sending 
all emails with this address to the trash. I hate doing this, I really thought 
things would just calm down. I don’t think that will happen now. 

Bob S


> On Aug 25, 2020, at 5:17 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Matthias,
> 
> Your comments are appreciated.
> 
> The projects deadline was Monday morning, which was completed. It doesn't
> take away from the fact that next time I will face it all again because LC
> won't fix the fundamentals. They don't live up to their promises. They LIE
> (Jacque won't accept it, but they make many claims on their site and to me
> in person that simply are proven false). I'm just tired of people making me
> out to be irrelevant and any claim I make to be false. They make claims of
> their own which in turn are unfounded in any reality. [sigh] Of course I
> will get upset at that kind of treatment from the same old abusers. They're
> the same ones who drove me to topping myself last time. Nice, community
> spirit of 'assume he's wrong, attack and make out LC can do no wrong' then
> push him out and hope he rots!
> 
> Thanks a bunch
> 
> Sean Cole
> *Pi Digital *
> 
> *PS - *(see, I am 'nice' to those who are deserving of respect. If you're
> not getting the respect, perhaps you need to consider the relevance and
> validity of what you have said).
> 
> On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 00:58, matthias rebbe via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Sean,
>> 
>> As much i understand the pressure you feel to finalize your project, the
>> less i  understand why every post of you sounds rude.
>> What do you want to accomplish with such posts and what do you want to
>> hear from us?
>> You can't expect that everyone on this list shares your opinion.
>> I do not think that your behavior is very helpful. But anyway that's your
>> decision.
>> 
>> I really wish you can complete the project successfully.
>> 
>> Take care of yourself.
>> 
>> Matthias
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Am 26.08.2020 um 01:36 schrieb Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>:
>>> 
>>> Se my notes on the other thread about OTF fonts. THEY ARE DESIGNED to be
>>> the SAME in ANY platform (except browsers coz they don't accept them.
>> They
>>> have their own variance.
>>> 
>>> Stop making excuses. Accept I am right, for FS. I didn't create the
>> fault.
>>> I'm not even the first to report it. It's there! It's real. Stop arguing
>>> and help me get LC to pull their fingers out their posteriors and fix
>> these
>>> damned mistakes that have been around for years!! Why does no one pull
>>> behind me, but just point the finger at me assuming I'm in the wrong for
>>> highlighting a bug that is clearly already accepted? It astounds me, it
>>> really does! You tell me off for getting angry about it but it is purely
>>> because everyone has made out the OTF fonts aren't designed to appear the
>>> same. They should. They don't. They should. But they don't! It needs
>>> fixing. Simple as that. Of course I'm going to respond badly to this kind
>>> of bullying. What did you all expect!
>>> 
>>> Sean Cole
>>> *Pi Digital *
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 23:04, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
 I’ll toss this in. I was using a Mac font that had a Windows corollary
>> (I
 thought) but when I dug deeper I found that the Mac had individual type
 faces whereas the Windows equivalent did not. This font was a BUILT-IN
>> font
 on both platforms!
 
 The result is if I chose the bold version of the font for something
>> like a
 Header or a Label, it wouldn’t be either the font chosen OR bold in
 Windows, although it looks absolutely fine on the Mac.
 
 The Livecode devs CANNOT take liberties with this sort of thing! What
>> can
 they do?? Write code that guesses what it was the developer was trying
>> to
 do? It’s absurd to think this is even a problem that CAN be solved at
>> the
 application level.
 
 THAT BEING SAID…
 What I DID do successfully was find an app that was able to CONVERT the
 Mac font type faces into WINDOWS font files, and then I was able to
>> install
 them in Windows and I got pretty much what I expected to get.
 
 Bob S
 
 
> On Aug 25, 2020, at 10:51 AM, Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via
 use-livecode  wrote:
> 
> Sean-
> 
> My degree is in TV/stage production and digital design. I’ve built web
 sites (HTML, WordPress, LiveCode), produced/directed broadcast and
 streaming programs, and delivered custom software on Mac/PC/Web (using
 Director and Flash), and now Mac/PC/iOS/Android using LiveCode (because
 you’re right, the HTML5 port isn’t ready for primetime).
> 
> Anyone who thinks pixel perfection across mediums is possible has never
 worked on a web platform; this usually ends up being UI 

Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Reminds me of HTML. All platform consistency in display… until Microsoft and 
Netscape decided to do it “better”. It begs the question, is it better to be 
consistent with everyone else’s standards, or better to be… well… better?

Bob S


On Aug 25, 2020, at 5:40 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

Yes, we all remember the TrueType rollout, and the promise of a single-file, 
cross-platform font definition.

But for that format to provide pixel-perfect matched rendering requires all 
renderer implementers to use the same code.  And as you know, they don't.

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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode
Here are some test screenshots to begin getting to the bottom (or baseline)
of the issue.

Mark claims that how they appear in WordPad and TextEdit are how it should
appear in LC. Lets test that. Here's WordPad in Windows (native). Arial
then the custom OTF font I was using both at 40pt

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ufmt8dt8c7wid6y/WordPad-Demo.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sn3b1r54kpbwqyf/TextEdit-Demo.png?dl=0

Then both together:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ujdngwrruk89u4o/WP_TE-Demo.png?dl=0
Pretty identical. Even these two basic programmes can get it right.

Now LC:
PC: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2da8juirgqsa4zd/PC-Demo.png?dl=0

then load the stack up in MacOS LC and put the screenshot of the PC-Demo
underneath it and fade to 50%:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8vknqpptq71n4z2/Mac-Demo.png?dl=0

So what seems to be happening here is that the 'top' of the text box is not
referring to the same baseline height in relation to the text within it.

And I think THAT is the key here. However it is that LC calculates the
distance between the top of frame and the baseline is incorrect. In fact,
I'm not sure at all how they are working it out having done a bit of maths
derived from what I have found. Heres some other grabs that highlight the
differences, if you're interested. You can do your own maths (don't trust
mine):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ezo1pny2dhouqy8/Windows-FontLayout.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cskjaafbz32vbyj/Mac-FontLayout.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m3wf2mj1h7dk1fl/Screenshot%202020-08-25%20at%2022.13.57.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/759z1rknopjts2a/Screenshot%202020-08-25%20at%2022.15.23.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/65njh5k0vkbfivz/Screenshot%202020-08-25%20at%2022.28.37.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6k60neuxeolvi46/Screenshot%202020-08-25%20at%2022.34.42.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3eugkbb7q05ydbo/Screenshot%202020-08-25%20at%2022.55.05.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fj0pi087ss3hpbw/Screenshot%202020-08-25%20at%2022.57.35.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/d8cxd2bp9vigbsv/Screenshot%202020-08-25%20at%2022.59.12.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q0bnf5lkmtss1sq/Screenshot%202020-08-25%20at%2023.02.29.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ynerw1m77p0p745/Screenshot%202020-08-25%20at%2023.08.38.png?dl=0

That should be enough along with your own testing to work it out.

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital Productions Ltd*
www.pidigital.co.uk
+44(1634)402193
+44(7702)116447
'Don't try to think outside the box. Just remember the truth: There is no
box!'
'For then you realise it is not the box you are trying to look outside of,
but it is yourself!'

eMail Ts & Cs    Pi Digital
Productions Ltd is a UK registered limited company, no. 5255609


On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 00:24, Sean Cole (Pi)  wrote:

> Mark,
>
> thanks for the response although only partially addressing the issue. That
> article (the first one to come up on a google search, so well done on your
> 'research') is aimed at web layout in a browser. NOTHING to do with desktop
> platform rendering which is a wholly different subject. And the writers
> 'hack' is not universal and only works based on that particular font. A
> very makeshift workaround (which is what we are incumbent on because of all
> the bugs (below) not yet ironed out - AFTER MANY YEARS!)
>
> Heres a far more relevant article by, yep, Adobe.
> https://helpx.adobe.com/uk/photoshop/using/fonts.html Look at the
> OpenType fonts section. The fonts I use are ALWAYS otf. Without fail. As
> Adobe says, "OpenType fonts use a single font file for both Windows and
> Macintosh computers, so you can move files from one platform to another
> without worrying about font substitution and other problems that cause text
> to reflow". They are platform agnostic. There are some caveats, for sure,
> but within the constraints of LC with its own engine, these won't apply. An
> OTF installed on ANY platform (other than a browser) will render
> identically with regards size, shape, height, line height, kerning and so
> on. There's no variance. It's pure mathematics. That's the point! (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenType)
>
> Spelling it out to you, here are all of the related bug reports. Confirmed
> bug reports. Confirmed they are bugs. Bugs that Can and Should be fixed. It
> won't take 10s of 1000s of $ as whatshisface Gaskin made it seem. I have
> and DO code workarounds for it all the sodding time. But CODE
> ONCE Pfft, CODE ONCE. I AM SICK OF ALL THIS BS BEING
> THROWN BACK AT ME as if it's me that caused the issue. SERIOUSLY!! YOU
> all MAKE ME WILD with all your apologist brushing off and glossing over.
> MAKE IT FLIPPIN WORK
>
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2707
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2081
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3076
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12176
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13551 (sideways 

Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Richard Gaskin via use-livecode

Sean Cole wrote:

> Spelling it out to you, here are all of the related bug reports.
> Confirmed bug reports. Confirmed they are bugs. Bugs that Can and
> Should be fixed. It won't take 10s of 1000s of $ as whatshisface
> Gaskin made it seem.

Embedding a replacement font rendering subsystem to bypass the 
OS-supplied one would be a feature request, not a bug report. :)


And I missed that feature request among the grab-bag collection of 
Bugzilla URLs you included. Has anyone ever actually requested that?



As for cross-platform rendering consistency, you seem to be confusing a 
file format specification with an implementation of a system which uses 
that format.


Yes, we all remember the TrueType rollout, and the promise of a 
single-file, cross-platform font definition.


But for that format to provide pixel-perfect matched rendering requires 
all renderer implementers to use the same code.  And as you know, they 
don't.


This is true with all sorts of formats. If you've ever written a web 
page you've no doubt enjoyed discovering the breadth of ways browser 
implementers can interpret simple HTML.


I noticed you ignored the screen shot I prepared for you, which 
illustrates platform disparities with both font and HTML rendering. You 
might want to take a look at that.  It's from BBC, an org you say 
doesn't tolerate cross-platform rendering disparities, but apparently, 
like the rest of us, they do.



> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18748 (Related and listed
> by none other than Whatshisface Gaskin himself!)

Is the issue described in that report what triggered this thread?

If it turns out to be relevant here, did you try Mark Waddingham's 
suggestion in Comment #1 from the report?


That solved it for me. In fact given the vertical metric alterations I 
chose to impose with the command listed in the recipe, the rendering can 
only come up short on top or on bottom, unless I take Waddingham's 
observation into account. It isn't logically possible to do otherwise 
with a fixed line height.


Also, the behavior described in that report is consistent across 
platforms, so it would seem the opposite of the cross-platform concerns 
that prompted this thread.


If that turns out to be the issue that prompted this thread that would 
be excellent, as a single checkbox click will take care of it.




PS: You don't have to use my name, but while you may be comfortable 
calling me "Whatshisface Gaskin" I doubt you'd welcome anyone here 
calling you "Dunning-Kruger Cole".  Let's not go there.


You might consider taking a little break, Sean. Come back when you're in 
a mood to engage with your colleagues as professionally as you do with 
your clients.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode
Thanks Matthias,

Your comments are appreciated.

The projects deadline was Monday morning, which was completed. It doesn't
take away from the fact that next time I will face it all again because LC
won't fix the fundamentals. They don't live up to their promises. They LIE
(Jacque won't accept it, but they make many claims on their site and to me
in person that simply are proven false). I'm just tired of people making me
out to be irrelevant and any claim I make to be false. They make claims of
their own which in turn are unfounded in any reality. [sigh] Of course I
will get upset at that kind of treatment from the same old abusers. They're
the same ones who drove me to topping myself last time. Nice, community
spirit of 'assume he's wrong, attack and make out LC can do no wrong' then
push him out and hope he rots!

Thanks a bunch

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *

*PS - *(see, I am 'nice' to those who are deserving of respect. If you're
not getting the respect, perhaps you need to consider the relevance and
validity of what you have said).

On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 00:58, matthias rebbe via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Sean,
>
> As much i understand the pressure you feel to finalize your project, the
> less i  understand why every post of you sounds rude.
> What do you want to accomplish with such posts and what do you want to
> hear from us?
> You can't expect that everyone on this list shares your opinion.
> I do not think that your behavior is very helpful. But anyway that's your
> decision.
>
> I really wish you can complete the project successfully.
>
> Take care of yourself.
>
> Matthias
>
>
>
> > Am 26.08.2020 um 01:36 schrieb Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>:
> >
> > Se my notes on the other thread about OTF fonts. THEY ARE DESIGNED to be
> > the SAME in ANY platform (except browsers coz they don't accept them.
> They
> > have their own variance.
> >
> > Stop making excuses. Accept I am right, for FS. I didn't create the
> fault.
> > I'm not even the first to report it. It's there! It's real. Stop arguing
> > and help me get LC to pull their fingers out their posteriors and fix
> these
> > damned mistakes that have been around for years!! Why does no one pull
> > behind me, but just point the finger at me assuming I'm in the wrong for
> > highlighting a bug that is clearly already accepted? It astounds me, it
> > really does! You tell me off for getting angry about it but it is purely
> > because everyone has made out the OTF fonts aren't designed to appear the
> > same. They should. They don't. They should. But they don't! It needs
> > fixing. Simple as that. Of course I'm going to respond badly to this kind
> > of bullying. What did you all expect!
> >
> > Sean Cole
> > *Pi Digital *
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 23:04, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I’ll toss this in. I was using a Mac font that had a Windows corollary
> (I
> >> thought) but when I dug deeper I found that the Mac had individual type
> >> faces whereas the Windows equivalent did not. This font was a BUILT-IN
> font
> >> on both platforms!
> >>
> >> The result is if I chose the bold version of the font for something
> like a
> >> Header or a Label, it wouldn’t be either the font chosen OR bold in
> >> Windows, although it looks absolutely fine on the Mac.
> >>
> >> The Livecode devs CANNOT take liberties with this sort of thing! What
> can
> >> they do?? Write code that guesses what it was the developer was trying
> to
> >> do? It’s absurd to think this is even a problem that CAN be solved at
> the
> >> application level.
> >>
> >> THAT BEING SAID…
> >> What I DID do successfully was find an app that was able to CONVERT the
> >> Mac font type faces into WINDOWS font files, and then I was able to
> install
> >> them in Windows and I got pretty much what I expected to get.
> >>
> >> Bob S
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 10:51 AM, Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via
> >> use-livecode  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Sean-
> >>>
> >>> My degree is in TV/stage production and digital design. I’ve built web
> >> sites (HTML, WordPress, LiveCode), produced/directed broadcast and
> >> streaming programs, and delivered custom software on Mac/PC/Web (using
> >> Director and Flash), and now Mac/PC/iOS/Android using LiveCode (because
> >> you’re right, the HTML5 port isn’t ready for primetime).
> >>>
> >>> Anyone who thinks pixel perfection across mediums is possible has never
> >> worked on a web platform; this usually ends up being UI designers who
> only
> >> work in theoreticals. That InDesign file they mocked up might look great
> >> saved as a PDF or printed on a specific coated paper using Pantone inks,
> >> but those CMYK colors and Post Script fonts are rendered using RGB and
> WOFF
> >> in a web browser or desktop computer so they won’t look the same: and
> >> there’s not a damn thing you can do about it (short of making
> everything an
> 

Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode
On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 00:46, JB via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Well it sounds like some of them expected you to get off the ship,
> and to do that by walking the plank.


Nice. Community
Sean Cole
*Pi Digital*
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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread matthias rebbe via use-livecode
Sean,

As much i understand the pressure you feel to finalize your project, the less i 
 understand why every post of you sounds rude.
What do you want to accomplish with such posts and what do you want to hear 
from us? 
You can't expect that everyone on this list shares your opinion. 
I do not think that your behavior is very helpful. But anyway that's your 
decision.

I really wish you can complete the project successfully.

Take care of yourself.

Matthias



> Am 26.08.2020 um 01:36 schrieb Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> Se my notes on the other thread about OTF fonts. THEY ARE DESIGNED to be
> the SAME in ANY platform (except browsers coz they don't accept them. They
> have their own variance.
> 
> Stop making excuses. Accept I am right, for FS. I didn't create the fault.
> I'm not even the first to report it. It's there! It's real. Stop arguing
> and help me get LC to pull their fingers out their posteriors and fix these
> damned mistakes that have been around for years!! Why does no one pull
> behind me, but just point the finger at me assuming I'm in the wrong for
> highlighting a bug that is clearly already accepted? It astounds me, it
> really does! You tell me off for getting angry about it but it is purely
> because everyone has made out the OTF fonts aren't designed to appear the
> same. They should. They don't. They should. But they don't! It needs
> fixing. Simple as that. Of course I'm going to respond badly to this kind
> of bullying. What did you all expect!
> 
> Sean Cole
> *Pi Digital *
> 
> 
> On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 23:04, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> I’ll toss this in. I was using a Mac font that had a Windows corollary (I
>> thought) but when I dug deeper I found that the Mac had individual type
>> faces whereas the Windows equivalent did not. This font was a BUILT-IN font
>> on both platforms!
>> 
>> The result is if I chose the bold version of the font for something like a
>> Header or a Label, it wouldn’t be either the font chosen OR bold in
>> Windows, although it looks absolutely fine on the Mac.
>> 
>> The Livecode devs CANNOT take liberties with this sort of thing! What can
>> they do?? Write code that guesses what it was the developer was trying to
>> do? It’s absurd to think this is even a problem that CAN be solved at the
>> application level.
>> 
>> THAT BEING SAID…
>> What I DID do successfully was find an app that was able to CONVERT the
>> Mac font type faces into WINDOWS font files, and then I was able to install
>> them in Windows and I got pretty much what I expected to get.
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 10:51 AM, Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via
>> use-livecode  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sean-
>>> 
>>> My degree is in TV/stage production and digital design. I’ve built web
>> sites (HTML, WordPress, LiveCode), produced/directed broadcast and
>> streaming programs, and delivered custom software on Mac/PC/Web (using
>> Director and Flash), and now Mac/PC/iOS/Android using LiveCode (because
>> you’re right, the HTML5 port isn’t ready for primetime).
>>> 
>>> Anyone who thinks pixel perfection across mediums is possible has never
>> worked on a web platform; this usually ends up being UI designers who only
>> work in theoreticals. That InDesign file they mocked up might look great
>> saved as a PDF or printed on a specific coated paper using Pantone inks,
>> but those CMYK colors and Post Script fonts are rendered using RGB and WOFF
>> in a web browser or desktop computer so they won’t look the same: and
>> there’s not a damn thing you can do about it (short of making everything an
>> image, but you still can’t make-up for the color gamut differences). The
>> WYSWIG hacks that sufficed in the 90s/00s to make things visually similar
>> were always shoddy at-best creating hundreds of additional lines of code
>> and won’t pass muster with current accessibility standards even if they did
>> "work".
>>> 
>>> Fonts have ALWAYS been one of the most difficult parts of app
>> development. Whether it’s getting legal fonts (the good ones aren’t cheap,
>> and the cheap ones aren’t good), or cross-platform fonts (not every OS
>> reads the same format, and not every font is available in multiple
>> formats). The closest I’ve come has been to run some scripts when
>> populating text fields to make sure they fit the dimensions allotted in the
>> design. Text doesn’t fit in box? Reduce the fontSize by 1 until it does.
>> Text doesn’t fill the space? Increase the fontSize by 1 until it does. It’s
>> a PITA, so I usually add this in at the end since the art department seems
>> to have another “small change” along the way.
>>> 
>>> Programming isn't a science as much as an art. With your broadcasting
>> background you understand that a projects aren’t “done” until the deadline:
>> there is ALWAYS something else you would have tweaked if you had more time
>> (2 weeks?!?). But I get it: producers are generally unreasonable 

Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread JB via use-livecode
Well it sounds like some of them expected you to get off the ship,
and to do that by walking the plank.

JB

> On Aug 25, 2020, at 4:37 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Of course I'm going to respond badly to this kind
> of bullying. What did you all expect!
> 
> Sean Cole
> *Pi Digital *
> 
> 
>> On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 23:04, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I’ll toss this in. I was using a Mac font that had a Windows corollary (I
>> thought) but when I dug deeper I found that the Mac had individual type
>> faces whereas the Windows equivalent did not. This font was a BUILT-IN font
>> on both platforms!
>> 
>> The result is if I chose the bold version of the font for something like a
>> Header or a Label, it wouldn’t be either the font chosen OR bold in
>> Windows, although it looks absolutely fine on the Mac.
>> 
>> The Livecode devs CANNOT take liberties with this sort of thing! What can
>> they do?? Write code that guesses what it was the developer was trying to
>> do? It’s absurd to think this is even a problem that CAN be solved at the
>> application level.
>> 
>> THAT BEING SAID…
>> What I DID do successfully was find an app that was able to CONVERT the
>> Mac font type faces into WINDOWS font files, and then I was able to install
>> them in Windows and I got pretty much what I expected to get.
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 10:51 AM, Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via
>> use-livecode  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sean-
>>> 
>>> My degree is in TV/stage production and digital design. I’ve built web
>> sites (HTML, WordPress, LiveCode), produced/directed broadcast and
>> streaming programs, and delivered custom software on Mac/PC/Web (using
>> Director and Flash), and now Mac/PC/iOS/Android using LiveCode (because
>> you’re right, the HTML5 port isn’t ready for primetime).
>>> 
>>> Anyone who thinks pixel perfection across mediums is possible has never
>> worked on a web platform; this usually ends up being UI designers who only
>> work in theoreticals. That InDesign file they mocked up might look great
>> saved as a PDF or printed on a specific coated paper using Pantone inks,
>> but those CMYK colors and Post Script fonts are rendered using RGB and WOFF
>> in a web browser or desktop computer so they won’t look the same: and
>> there’s not a damn thing you can do about it (short of making everything an
>> image, but you still can’t make-up for the color gamut differences). The
>> WYSWIG hacks that sufficed in the 90s/00s to make things visually similar
>> were always shoddy at-best creating hundreds of additional lines of code
>> and won’t pass muster with current accessibility standards even if they did
>> "work".
>>> 
>>> Fonts have ALWAYS been one of the most difficult parts of app
>> development. Whether it’s getting legal fonts (the good ones aren’t cheap,
>> and the cheap ones aren’t good), or cross-platform fonts (not every OS
>> reads the same format, and not every font is available in multiple
>> formats). The closest I’ve come has been to run some scripts when
>> populating text fields to make sure they fit the dimensions allotted in the
>> design. Text doesn’t fit in box? Reduce the fontSize by 1 until it does.
>> Text doesn’t fill the space? Increase the fontSize by 1 until it does. It’s
>> a PITA, so I usually add this in at the end since the art department seems
>> to have another “small change” along the way.
>>> 
>>> Programming isn't a science as much as an art. With your broadcasting
>> background you understand that a projects aren’t “done” until the deadline:
>> there is ALWAYS something else you would have tweaked if you had more time
>> (2 weeks?!?). But I get it: producers are generally unreasonable eggplant
>> emojis that are notoriously difficult to please.
>>> 
>>> While LiveCode DOES require some if platform() conditionals, I can only
>> imagine coding this in Swift and Java (even for a unicorn proficient in
>> BOTH) would still take much longer and NOT give the pixel perfection you
>> are referring to. I say “imagine” because I don’t know, and never had to
>> learn, those languages since I could easily pick-up LiveCode from the
>> various programming environments I’ve previously developed for. My copy of
>> Microsoft Windows looks different on my iMac than it does on my Dell, and
>> it wasn’t a fireable offense for the development team.
>>> 
>>> —Andrew Bell
>>> ___
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> ___
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>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> 

Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode
Se my notes on the other thread about OTF fonts. THEY ARE DESIGNED to be
the SAME in ANY platform (except browsers coz they don't accept them. They
have their own variance.

Stop making excuses. Accept I am right, for FS. I didn't create the fault.
I'm not even the first to report it. It's there! It's real. Stop arguing
and help me get LC to pull their fingers out their posteriors and fix these
damned mistakes that have been around for years!! Why does no one pull
behind me, but just point the finger at me assuming I'm in the wrong for
highlighting a bug that is clearly already accepted? It astounds me, it
really does! You tell me off for getting angry about it but it is purely
because everyone has made out the OTF fonts aren't designed to appear the
same. They should. They don't. They should. But they don't! It needs
fixing. Simple as that. Of course I'm going to respond badly to this kind
of bullying. What did you all expect!

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *


On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 23:04, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I’ll toss this in. I was using a Mac font that had a Windows corollary (I
> thought) but when I dug deeper I found that the Mac had individual type
> faces whereas the Windows equivalent did not. This font was a BUILT-IN font
> on both platforms!
>
> The result is if I chose the bold version of the font for something like a
> Header or a Label, it wouldn’t be either the font chosen OR bold in
> Windows, although it looks absolutely fine on the Mac.
>
> The Livecode devs CANNOT take liberties with this sort of thing! What can
> they do?? Write code that guesses what it was the developer was trying to
> do? It’s absurd to think this is even a problem that CAN be solved at the
> application level.
>
> THAT BEING SAID…
> What I DID do successfully was find an app that was able to CONVERT the
> Mac font type faces into WINDOWS font files, and then I was able to install
> them in Windows and I got pretty much what I expected to get.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Aug 25, 2020, at 10:51 AM, Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via
> use-livecode  wrote:
> >
> > Sean-
> >
> > My degree is in TV/stage production and digital design. I’ve built web
> sites (HTML, WordPress, LiveCode), produced/directed broadcast and
> streaming programs, and delivered custom software on Mac/PC/Web (using
> Director and Flash), and now Mac/PC/iOS/Android using LiveCode (because
> you’re right, the HTML5 port isn’t ready for primetime).
> >
> > Anyone who thinks pixel perfection across mediums is possible has never
> worked on a web platform; this usually ends up being UI designers who only
> work in theoreticals. That InDesign file they mocked up might look great
> saved as a PDF or printed on a specific coated paper using Pantone inks,
> but those CMYK colors and Post Script fonts are rendered using RGB and WOFF
> in a web browser or desktop computer so they won’t look the same: and
> there’s not a damn thing you can do about it (short of making everything an
> image, but you still can’t make-up for the color gamut differences). The
> WYSWIG hacks that sufficed in the 90s/00s to make things visually similar
> were always shoddy at-best creating hundreds of additional lines of code
> and won’t pass muster with current accessibility standards even if they did
> "work".
> >
> > Fonts have ALWAYS been one of the most difficult parts of app
> development. Whether it’s getting legal fonts (the good ones aren’t cheap,
> and the cheap ones aren’t good), or cross-platform fonts (not every OS
> reads the same format, and not every font is available in multiple
> formats). The closest I’ve come has been to run some scripts when
> populating text fields to make sure they fit the dimensions allotted in the
> design. Text doesn’t fit in box? Reduce the fontSize by 1 until it does.
> Text doesn’t fill the space? Increase the fontSize by 1 until it does. It’s
> a PITA, so I usually add this in at the end since the art department seems
> to have another “small change” along the way.
> >
> > Programming isn't a science as much as an art. With your broadcasting
> background you understand that a projects aren’t “done” until the deadline:
> there is ALWAYS something else you would have tweaked if you had more time
> (2 weeks?!?). But I get it: producers are generally unreasonable eggplant
> emojis that are notoriously difficult to please.
> >
> > While LiveCode DOES require some if platform() conditionals, I can only
> imagine coding this in Swift and Java (even for a unicorn proficient in
> BOTH) would still take much longer and NOT give the pixel perfection you
> are referring to. I say “imagine” because I don’t know, and never had to
> learn, those languages since I could easily pick-up LiveCode from the
> various programming environments I’ve previously developed for. My copy of
> Microsoft Windows looks different on my iMac than it does on my Dell, and
> it wasn’t a fireable offense for the development team.
> >
> 

Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode
Mark,

thanks for the response although only partially addressing the issue. That
article (the first one to come up on a google search, so well done on your
'research') is aimed at web layout in a browser. NOTHING to do with desktop
platform rendering which is a wholly different subject. And the writers
'hack' is not universal and only works based on that particular font. A
very makeshift workaround (which is what we are incumbent on because of all
the bugs (below) not yet ironed out - AFTER MANY YEARS!)

Heres a far more relevant article by, yep, Adobe.
https://helpx.adobe.com/uk/photoshop/using/fonts.html Look at the OpenType
fonts section. The fonts I use are ALWAYS otf. Without fail. As Adobe says,
"OpenType fonts use a single font file for both Windows and Macintosh
computers, so you can move files from one platform to another without
worrying about font substitution and other problems that cause text to
reflow". They are platform agnostic. There are some caveats, for sure, but
within the constraints of LC with its own engine, these won't apply. An OTF
installed on ANY platform (other than a browser) will render identically
with regards size, shape, height, line height, kerning and so on. There's
no variance. It's pure mathematics. That's the point! (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenType)

Spelling it out to you, here are all of the related bug reports. Confirmed
bug reports. Confirmed they are bugs. Bugs that Can and Should be fixed. It
won't take 10s of 1000s of $ as whatshisface Gaskin made it seem. I have
and DO code workarounds for it all the sodding time. But CODE
ONCE Pfft, CODE ONCE. I AM SICK OF ALL THIS BS BEING
THROWN BACK AT ME as if it's me that caused the issue. SERIOUSLY!! YOU
all MAKE ME WILD with all your apologist brushing off and glossing over.
MAKE IT FLIPPIN WORK

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2707
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2081
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3076
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12176
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13551 (sideways related)
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18748 (Related and listed by
none other than Whatshisface Gaskin himself!)
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=19513
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=21426

Plus all of the 'Duplicate' references therein.

If you are changing font or having to use different font between system I
can FULLY understand why they would appear different. Even something like
Arial in one system is bound to not be exactly the same font in both
systems. I totally accept that fact and have to deal with it accordingly.

BUT if the font is a custom, professionally made font or even a freebie
crap font, installed on both systems they should appear the same size (the
point size is not some arbitrary number) with the same fixed line height
and formattedHeight (again, not arbitrary) with identical baselines
calculated in exactly the same way. It's basic maths. It's an engine fault,
not a system one. It requires a teeny bit of scientific testing with some
custom fonts between platforms.

--

Based on the above reports and others like them, it's evident I'm not
making this up, or being precious or getting worked up over NOTHING! We
should get what we pay for and what LC advertise on their virtual box
(landing page).   *I* didn't say it's CODE ONCE.*THEY* put it like
that! If it's not something LC can live up to they should change it. You
can barely code once anything in lc that is cross-platform. Seriously,
prove me wrong! But don't demonise me. I wasn't the one to make the claim.
I'm pointing out how false it is and trying to get things working as they
should. And certainly don't try to pull the wool over my eyes with
incredibly badly thought out reasoning. I'm done with people fobbing me
off.

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 19:51, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 2020-08-24 21:49, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
> > My client provided the font they needed in line with their tv show
> > brand.
> > They need the app to work both PC and Mac. It seems I have to manually
> > go
> > through each field, button and widget and make sure they are laid out
> > properly. The left, right, center alignments don't always match and the
> > vertical position certainly never matches.
> > https://www.dropbox.com/s/v50aj7uv06bh4d9/MacText.png?dl=0
> > https://www.dropbox.com/s/pry5teqp89xzbun/PCText.png?dl=0
>
> I suspect the main issue with vertical alignment here is to do with the
> font.
>
> This very readable article contains the relevant information here as
> well as how the problem can be resolved:
>
> <
> https://www.williamrchase.com/post/font-height-differences-between-windows-and-mac/
> >
>
> TL;DR; version - the custom font probably does not have the correct
> settings/tables for use in programs which use the system text engines 

Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread matthias rebbe via use-livecode
Mark,

Although i am not the original creator of this topic, I think this really is a 
very interesting article.

But there is a caveeat. The licensing of commercial fonts very often does not 
allow modification of the font.
And if in the rare case the modification is allowed, then normally it is only 
allowed to use the modified font then for internal business or private use and 
a distribution or transfer is not allowed.

Anyway, a very interesting article, which at least gives a clue how to resolve 
the layout out problem.


Matthias

 
> Am 25.08.2020 um 20:51 schrieb Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> On 2020-08-24 21:49, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
>> My client provided the font they needed in line with their tv show brand.
>> They need the app to work both PC and Mac. It seems I have to manually go
>> through each field, button and widget and make sure they are laid out
>> properly. The left, right, center alignments don't always match and the
>> vertical position certainly never matches.
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/v50aj7uv06bh4d9/MacText.png?dl=0
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/pry5teqp89xzbun/PCText.png?dl=0
> 
> I suspect the main issue with vertical alignment here is to do with the font.
> 
> This very readable article contains the relevant information here as well as 
> how the problem can be resolved:
> 
> 


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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
I’ll toss this in. I was using a Mac font that had a Windows corollary (I 
thought) but when I dug deeper I found that the Mac had individual type faces 
whereas the Windows equivalent did not. This font was a BUILT-IN font on both 
platforms! 

The result is if I chose the bold version of the font for something like a 
Header or a Label, it wouldn’t be either the font chosen OR bold in Windows, 
although it looks absolutely fine on the Mac. 

The Livecode devs CANNOT take liberties with this sort of thing! What can they 
do?? Write code that guesses what it was the developer was trying to do? It’s 
absurd to think this is even a problem that CAN be solved at the application 
level. 

THAT BEING SAID…
What I DID do successfully was find an app that was able to CONVERT the Mac 
font type faces into WINDOWS font files, and then I was able to install them in 
Windows and I got pretty much what I expected to get. 

Bob S


> On Aug 25, 2020, at 10:51 AM, Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Sean-
> 
> My degree is in TV/stage production and digital design. I’ve built web sites 
> (HTML, WordPress, LiveCode), produced/directed broadcast and streaming 
> programs, and delivered custom software on Mac/PC/Web (using Director and 
> Flash), and now Mac/PC/iOS/Android using LiveCode (because you’re right, the 
> HTML5 port isn’t ready for primetime).
> 
> Anyone who thinks pixel perfection across mediums is possible has never 
> worked on a web platform; this usually ends up being UI designers who only 
> work in theoreticals. That InDesign file they mocked up might look great 
> saved as a PDF or printed on a specific coated paper using Pantone inks, but 
> those CMYK colors and Post Script fonts are rendered using RGB and WOFF in a 
> web browser or desktop computer so they won’t look the same: and there’s not 
> a damn thing you can do about it (short of making everything an image, but 
> you still can’t make-up for the color gamut differences). The WYSWIG hacks 
> that sufficed in the 90s/00s to make things visually similar were always 
> shoddy at-best creating hundreds of additional lines of code and won’t pass 
> muster with current accessibility standards even if they did "work".
> 
> Fonts have ALWAYS been one of the most difficult parts of app development. 
> Whether it’s getting legal fonts (the good ones aren’t cheap, and the cheap 
> ones aren’t good), or cross-platform fonts (not every OS reads the same 
> format, and not every font is available in multiple formats). The closest 
> I’ve come has been to run some scripts when populating text fields to make 
> sure they fit the dimensions allotted in the design. Text doesn’t fit in box? 
> Reduce the fontSize by 1 until it does. Text doesn’t fill the space? Increase 
> the fontSize by 1 until it does. It’s a PITA, so I usually add this in at the 
> end since the art department seems to have another “small change” along the 
> way.
> 
> Programming isn't a science as much as an art. With your broadcasting 
> background you understand that a projects aren’t “done” until the deadline: 
> there is ALWAYS something else you would have tweaked if you had more time (2 
> weeks?!?). But I get it: producers are generally unreasonable eggplant emojis 
> that are notoriously difficult to please.
> 
> While LiveCode DOES require some if platform() conditionals, I can only 
> imagine coding this in Swift and Java (even for a unicorn proficient in BOTH) 
> would still take much longer and NOT give the pixel perfection you are 
> referring to. I say “imagine” because I don’t know, and never had to learn, 
> those languages since I could easily pick-up LiveCode from the various 
> programming environments I’ve previously developed for. My copy of Microsoft 
> Windows looks different on my iMac than it does on my Dell, and it wasn’t a 
> fireable offense for the development team.
> 
> —Andrew Bell
> ___
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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Mark Waddingham via use-livecode

On 2020-08-24 21:49, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
My client provided the font they needed in line with their tv show 
brand.
They need the app to work both PC and Mac. It seems I have to manually 
go

through each field, button and widget and make sure they are laid out
properly. The left, right, center alignments don't always match and the
vertical position certainly never matches.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v50aj7uv06bh4d9/MacText.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pry5teqp89xzbun/PCText.png?dl=0


I suspect the main issue with vertical alignment here is to do with the 
font.


This very readable article contains the relevant information here as 
well as how the problem can be resolved:




TL;DR; version - the custom font probably does not have the correct 
settings/tables for use in programs which use the system text engines on 
*both* Mac and Windows.


FWIW, LiveCode fields try to match the way the running platform displays 
text in OS editable fields.


Specifically, text in a field on macOS will look almost the same as that 
in TextEdit; and text in a field on Windows will look almost the same as 
that in WordPad (DPI differences taken into account - LC assumes 72dpi, 
Win assumes 96dpi).


Unfortunately this means you do need to do some work (i.e. scripting) if 
you want to use LiveCode fields in more 'graphical' situations - e.g. as 
the labels on custom buttons.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

P.S. It is perfectly possible that fettling with the metrics detailed in 
the article above would mean you could achieve identical vertical layout 
on macOS and Windows but it isn't something I have actually tried.


--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create app

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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Richard Gaskin via use-livecode

Sean Cole wrote:

> I assume (dangerously) from your reply that you do not have to make
> real world applications for corporate branded customers. Where design
> has been done by a branding team with a 12 - 120 page Production
> guide). Someone like the BBC

A good way to analyze a problem is to find existing examples of how 
successful organizations handle the problem we're facing.


With font rendering across platforms, we can look at how BBC themselves 
handle that.


In this image you'll find two screen shots of a lead story block from 
bbc.co.uk/news, where the top image is from macOS and the bottom from 
Windows.  Both had the latest OS versions, and both used the same 
browser version (freshly-downloaded Chrome, the world's most popular, so 
a good test case), where the browser window was set to the same width 
(1020px):


http://fourthworld.net/lc/Mac-Win-Fonts.png

Evident differences include:
- text weight
- kerning
- leading
- antialiasing

Indeed, the kerning differences are pronounced enough that even BBC's 
expert web team using a modern CSS spec designed by experts and rendered 
in a browser made by one of the most powerful corporations on earth is 
still so pronounced that both the story's title and summary wrap 
differently between the two platforms.



Operating systems matter, and even the best effort to reduce the effects 
of the differences between them cannot make them the same, as they are 
made by very different organizations with very different methodologies 
and priorities.


The article Jacque provided was useful, relevant, succinct, and 
apparently ignored, so it's worth including here again:


https://damieng.com/blog/2007/06/13/font-rendering-philosophies-of-windows-and-mac-os-x


Since everything we've ever seen in all of computing reminds us that 
different OSes behave differently, when we want a given font rendering 
to be identical on both platforms, as Richmond noted we can generate an 
image of the text we want and use the image instead of the text.


That is of course impractical and often undesirable for body text, which 
is why body text is frequently seen differently on different platforms. 
But for absolutely critical elements like logos, it's what most experts 
do.  Indeed, the BBC logo could have been implemented as a font, but for 
precision across platform apparently they chose to use an SVG file.




> It is arse-umed that how it looks on Windows is how it should look on
> any other platform we distribute to including the various output sizes
> (1024x576SD, 960x540HHD, 1920x1080HD, 3840x2160 4k). Everything has to
> match to the pixel. That’s how branding works.

Apparently for their most visible asset, their web site, BBC feels 
branding can be driven by other priorities according to the relevance of 
a given element to their brand: logos are images, article text is left 
to the OS.



--- On the inherent difficulty of the task:

> We have no issue with that moving between platforms in editing and
> graphics platforms, so post production facilities (mine included)
> could not conceive or perceive that it would be any different in a
> development environment. Design it in photoshop on a pc and send it
> to your colleagues working in After Effects on a Mac and send it back
> to an editor on a PC running Premiere and it looks the same end to
> end. That is ‘just the way it is’!

That's "just the way it is" in highly specific circumstances in which 
you exercise great care with how the document is set up and limit what 
you're doing to a narrow subset of software that includes its own 
font-rendering subsystem.


You will not find this in word processors, or spreadsheets, or database 
front-ends, or the web, or most other software outside of specialized 
graphics productions tools.  Even in programs that allow custom kerning, 
like some word processors, will show differences in line wrap between OSes.


It would be nice if any single tool could do all things that all 
possible software can do.  But nothing in the universe works like that, 
and software is no exception.


Thankfully, with extensibility mechanisms like widgets, FFI, and 
externals, LiveCode can be a foundation to include things far beyond its 
out-of-the-box capabilities.  If you want to embed a custom font 
rendering subsystem, I'll be it would cost you no more than Adobe spent 
developing theirs (which, given the considerable time, expertise, and 
licensing required, I'd venture to guess would cost somewhere between 
US$100k 200k, possibly more).


While you ponder funding sources for that, you could just as easily do 
what other production companies like my friends here in Hollywoodland 
do, and as Richmond suggested earlier: if you want pixel-perfect 
identical rasterization across platforms, rasterize it yourself to your 
satisfaction and use the resulting image in production.


Rasterized output is how Photoshop is most commonly used in production.



--- On the larger issue of workflow 

Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via use-livecode
Sean-

My degree is in TV/stage production and digital design. I’ve built web sites 
(HTML, WordPress, LiveCode), produced/directed broadcast and streaming 
programs, and delivered custom software on Mac/PC/Web (using Director and 
Flash), and now Mac/PC/iOS/Android using LiveCode (because you’re right, the 
HTML5 port isn’t ready for primetime).

Anyone who thinks pixel perfection across mediums is possible has never worked 
on a web platform; this usually ends up being UI designers who only work in 
theoreticals. That InDesign file they mocked up might look great saved as a PDF 
or printed on a specific coated paper using Pantone inks, but those CMYK colors 
and Post Script fonts are rendered using RGB and WOFF in a web browser or 
desktop computer so they won’t look the same: and there’s not a damn thing you 
can do about it (short of making everything an image, but you still can’t 
make-up for the color gamut differences). The WYSWIG hacks that sufficed in the 
90s/00s to make things visually similar were always shoddy at-best creating 
hundreds of additional lines of code and won’t pass muster with current 
accessibility standards even if they did "work".

Fonts have ALWAYS been one of the most difficult parts of app development. 
Whether it’s getting legal fonts (the good ones aren’t cheap, and the cheap 
ones aren’t good), or cross-platform fonts (not every OS reads the same format, 
and not every font is available in multiple formats). The closest I’ve come has 
been to run some scripts when populating text fields to make sure they fit the 
dimensions allotted in the design. Text doesn’t fit in box? Reduce the fontSize 
by 1 until it does. Text doesn’t fill the space? Increase the fontSize by 1 
until it does. It’s a PITA, so I usually add this in at the end since the art 
department seems to have another “small change” along the way.

Programming isn't a science as much as an art. With your broadcasting 
background you understand that a projects aren’t “done” until the deadline: 
there is ALWAYS something else you would have tweaked if you had more time (2 
weeks?!?). But I get it: producers are generally unreasonable eggplant emojis 
that are notoriously difficult to please.

While LiveCode DOES require some if platform() conditionals, I can only imagine 
coding this in Swift and Java (even for a unicorn proficient in BOTH) would 
still take much longer and NOT give the pixel perfection you are referring to. 
I say “imagine” because I don’t know, and never had to learn, those languages 
since I could easily pick-up LiveCode from the various programming environments 
I’ve previously developed for. My copy of Microsoft Windows looks different on 
my iMac than it does on my Dell, and it wasn’t a fireable offense for the 
development team.

—Andrew Bell
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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode
Feck ONE of the sticking points. There are a crap load of hoops I have to
jump through to make them work cross platform. The font thing is just my
latest little annoyance that puts me up on my soap box. I've been truly
shafted by the plethora of fekkin' NON-CODE-ONCE stuff we HAVE to do to
make them work cross platform. SERIOUSLY!!?! ONE!! FTFRO!! Thats both legs
broken now, thanks!

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *


On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 16:31, Richmond via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> No: it isn't exactly 'Code once' but it does come pretty near it.
>
> Obviously one of the sticking points is to do with fonts.
>
> My experience with cross-platform development does NOT involve
> having to write for each OS. What it has involved is what one might
> describe
> as tweaking and cleaning-up for each target platform . . .
>
> . . . and how much tweaking and cleaning-up tends to vary with the
> nature of one's work.
>
> However, having once been seriously fooled by a "one size fits all"
> operation, I am naturally
> fairly chary when it comes to that sort of claim.
>
> On 25.08.20 18:25, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
> > I’m sure there are other development environments out there you could
> explore.
> >
> > Bob S
> >
> >
> > On Aug 24, 2020, at 9:02 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > It's hardly 'Code Once' then. You absolutely HAVE to write for each OS
> > specifically. Livecode DOES NOT pull up the slack and make it work
> > cross-platform identically as insinuated in their homepage.
> >
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode
Thanks for your suggestion, Bob. Any pointers?

As I said in my very last post, I DID A PAINFUL AMOUNT OF RESEARCH INTO THE
BEST SOLUTIONS FOR HIM AND THE OTHERS. Saying 'I'm sure there are...'
doesn't make them suddenly spring up, especially considering we are so
invested into LC as it is!! Like, if you'd paid for all the apps on Apple
to find out you don't like their privacy policy, so move over to the ONLY
other supplier of Android, only to have to buy all those apps again for
that platform and THEN find out their policy is just as bad, if not worse!!

Your argument is redundant and invalid. Unaccepted! Quite rightly in fact!

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 16:25, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I’m sure there are other development environments out there you could
> explore.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> On Aug 24, 2020, at 9:02 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
> wrote:
>
> It's hardly 'Code Once' then. You absolutely HAVE to write for each OS
> specifically. Livecode DOES NOT pull up the slack and make it work
> cross-platform identically as insinuated in their homepage.
>
> ___
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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Richmond via use-livecode

No: it isn't exactly 'Code once' but it does come pretty near it.

Obviously one of the sticking points is to do with fonts.

My experience with cross-platform development does NOT involve
having to write for each OS. What it has involved is what one might describe
as tweaking and cleaning-up for each target platform . . .

. . . and how much tweaking and cleaning-up tends to vary with the 
nature of one's work.


However, having once been seriously fooled by a "one size fits all" 
operation, I am naturally

fairly chary when it comes to that sort of claim.

On 25.08.20 18:25, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

I’m sure there are other development environments out there you could explore.

Bob S


On Aug 24, 2020, at 9:02 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

It's hardly 'Code Once' then. You absolutely HAVE to write for each OS
specifically. Livecode DOES NOT pull up the slack and make it work
cross-platform identically as insinuated in their homepage.

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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
I’m sure there are other development environments out there you could explore.

Bob S


On Aug 24, 2020, at 9:02 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

It's hardly 'Code Once' then. You absolutely HAVE to write for each OS
specifically. Livecode DOES NOT pull up the slack and make it work
cross-platform identically as insinuated in their homepage.

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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 15:35, Paul Pystcat via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> 6. If you continue to use a hammer instead of a screwdriver, you WILL get
> the job done… but then don’t curse the wood for damaging
>

 In your illustration, who is the wood? LC? Surely they are the hammer (or
the screwdriver). So in that case, who is the wood? My clients? So, okay
then, if you are saying that LC is a hammer and they are damaging my
clients (quite possible and reasonable to consider) then who would be that
'Screwdriver' I can turn to that WILL absolutely be able to allow me to
switch easily (I'm nearly 50 and don't want to invest yet more time and
money into something that may or may not be 'ideal' to our situation) and
provide QUICK turnaround prototypes and working apps (for the most part) to
my tv/video clients and port over software from windows LC code to the web
for my other big client?

Bear in mind, this client of mine came into LC with 0% coding experience,
built his frankly HUMONGOUS app over a period of 10 years with the help of
the likes of Klaus and others of our community, and ONLY knows LC and wants
to be able to continue that while progressing forward for his customers,
the Huge mobile telecoms sales forces of the UK.

Trust, I have done painful amounts of research into the best solutions for
him and the others. Then I ASKED LC to ensure they were committed to fixing
the issues and continue the HTML development of which I was assured so
purchased 2x 3yr licences for me and my client. So far, to date, over the
last 1.27years, they have fixed the delete key two weeks ago and then,
because I kicked up a fuss, they added the arrow keys. However, the shift
key remains non-functional as do all the other modifier keys (although they
have explained why alt cannot work which is fair enough and I can
understand that one - I'm not totally unforgiving or unreasonable).
Copy-paste is still non-functional. The data grid is a mess. Basic text
field operations remain dysfunctional. And LC continue to fail to respond
publicly or privately to this issue or the others I raise. When I message
Ian, the LC developer who HTML has been haded over to since the original
coders jumped ship, to discuss things on GitHub or email I receive no
response from him or any other team member.

So I am at a loss. In limbo. Abandoned! Not even any of you are help me as
I lay here stranded in the middle of an ocean. Other than the same old lame
excuses and saying 'they mean well' and 'they are doing their best' and
'it's just the way it is' or 'has always been'. It's no consolation to me
or my clients for the serious amounts of money and time invested.

If they are not going to deliver, I would just prefer them to be honest,
own up to it, let us know and we can move on knowing where we stand (or
swim, continuing the ocean metaphor).

> On Aug 25, 2020, at 9:28 AM, Richmond via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 4. "find another language that will do exactly what you want" . . . ouch,
I hurt my leg falling off the chair with laughter.

Hehe :D, my sentiments exactly, Richmond. Nail hit sqaurely by that hammer
(or screwdriver). I feel you and I share a sense of humour and sarcasm
that, if placed in a room together, could start a holocaust. Oopsy ;)

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *
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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Paul Pystcat via use-livecode
1. AND a great movie!
2. Correct.. most SHOULD
3. and 4. I honestly don’t know, which is why I asked.  If something was giving 
me as much grief for as often and as long as the OP has ranted about, on 
multiple occaisions, I would make my life easier and abandon ship.  Why pull 
your hair out..?  In time, it will fall out on its own. 
5. Please… joke away!  I’m a big fan of comedy and will give you credit for any 
jokes I steal use.
6. If you continue to use a hammer instead of a screwdriver, you WILL get the 
job done… but then don’t curse the wood for damaging
7. I rather enjoy your rants.  I actually look for them in certain threads… 
please (and I mean this sincerely) Rant Away!  They make my day.

> On Aug 25, 2020, at 9:28 AM, Richmond via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Well; let's consider that suggestion:
> 
> 1. The Holy Grail was an abstract idea dreamt up by the Knights Templars.
> 
> 2. Most people have worked out by the time they are about 35 that perfection 
> is a dangerous illusion.
> 
> 3. "Years of hell": Why do you suppose the OP has stuck with LiveCode for the 
> length of time he has if it has been 'hell'?
> 
> 4. "find another language that will do exactly what you want" . . . ouch, I 
> hurt my leg falling off the chair with laughter.
> 
> 5. Why do I get a "funny feeling" that by calling yourself 'Paul Pystcat' you 
> are an undercover agent pushing Python (a language
> which I could say one or two "fruity" things about)?
> 
> 6. The OP is NOT a fool; that is quite obvious from his previous postings 
> over a number of years, and he would not be
> posting the sort of thing he posted if he were considering abandonong 
> LiveCode.
> 
> 7. Err . . . on the subject of rants and "squishes" . . .
> 
> On 25.08.20 16:11, Paul Pystcat via use-livecode wrote:
>> I really have to ask…  if you are having such problems that are so 
>> insurmountable using LiveCode, then why not just abandon ship…?  Seriously.  
>> If this is such a showstopper, why not find another language that will do 
>> exactly what you want..?  Don’t waste any more of your time.  Do it.  You 
>> may find the Holy Grail and all will be well… you can look back on your 
>> years of hell with LiveCode and laugh at us that remain.
>> 
>>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 6:01 AM, Pi Digital via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Not Fridge, Fork.
>>> 
>>> I assume (dangerously) from your reply that you do not have to make real 
>>> world applications for corporate branded customers. Where design has been 
>>> done by a branding team with a 12 - 120 page Production guide). Someone 
>>> like the BBC, Channel 4, NBC, or their subsidiaries. Like Saatchi and 
>>> Saatchi, Mars, Ford, Pfizer, Virgin, VTech, Bandai.
>>> 
>>> My case study this project. Two week turnaround (first week primary 
>>> development wireframed , second week skin and output for Windows(primary 
>>> output)/Mac(Backup)). Tv gameshow multiscreen (some split across multiple 
>>> screens themselves) for live recording screen graphics. 35 cards (or 
>>> frames, pages, slides, whatever you want to call them) plus video inserts 
>>> all with live updated content input by a controller on a remote machine (pc 
>>> or Mac as they see fit on the day) as the show progresses.
>>> 
>>> As the platform my POC and his office colleagues was using was a PC it made 
>>> sense to do development in Windows for output to PC and Mac for studio 
>>> techs to pick from based on location around the studio (the gallery for 
>>> controllers, back stage and stage floor). It is arse-umed that how it looks 
>>> on Windows is how it should look on any other platform we distribute to 
>>> including the various output sizes (1024x576SD, 960x540HHD, 1920x1080HD, 
>>> 3840x2160 4k). Everything has to match to the pixel. That’s how branding 
>>> works. We have no issue with that moving between platforms in editing and 
>>> graphics platforms, so post production facilities (mine included) could not 
>>> conceive or perceive that it would be any different in a development 
>>> environment. Design it in photoshop on a pc and send it to your colleagues 
>>> working in After Effects on a Mac and send it back to an editor on a PC 
>>> running Premiere and it looks the same end to end. That is ‘just the way it 
>>> is’!
>>> 
>>> So, after developing at a stupid rate, 12 solid 14-18hr days, we have the 
>>> finished app layered out (don’t get me back on the layering embargo), 
>>> animated with text & graphic moves and effects, ready for deployment out to 
>>> Mac and PC. Tick the boxes in the standalone settings, build and open in 
>>> their respective platforms.
>>> 
>>> Only to find that everything you had laid out perfectly matching on PC is 
>>> totally screwed on the Mac. Opening up the stack on the Mac, it’s the same 
>>> thing. Now with only one day to go I am forced to work out the fastest way 
>>> to realign every text box (anything from 2 - 200 per card) so they match 
>>> exactly regardless of platform. 

Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Richmond via use-livecode
You are certainly correct about the non-materialising assurances (pace 
the fund-raiser a few years back where almost none of the stretch goals 
materialised) and the begging for money. Recently LiveCode was 
effectively bankrupt and moved from its (needlessly) expensive offices 
in the centre of Edinburgh's New Town to somewhere less expensive.


I feel that LiveCode (the company) has never matured from "Kevin and his 
mates" to a fully-fledged,

going concern.

It makes me extremely sad, having discovered the "Kevin and his mates" 
versions in 2001/2
(RunRev 1.1.1, 2.0 & 2.0.1) that somewhere down the line things got 
either stuck or skewed,

as a lot of potential seems to have got lost.

Not least its potential as an entry-level language for teaching and as a 
prototyper.


On 25.08.20 16:47, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote:

Paul

It’s a reasonable question so I’ll afford it the dignity it deserves. Here’s 
the thing. With thousands of £ invested in them including when they beg for 
money to help them out during times of distress you end up almost locked into 
their ecosystem. Besides, my main bread and butter client is 100% LiveCode 
dépendant so I HAVE to continue down the LC route.

Unless I do what Richmond suggests, which has often been on my mind, and just 
jump ship and abandon my client. I’ve had partnerships I’ve had to do this with 
before, mostly due to their poor business skills though. This one has been 
nothing but good to me especially since I came out of the mental hospital two 
years ago. I wouldn’t want to insult him.

And therein lies the rub because, to achieve the html conversion of his app his 
clients were effectively demanding, I had to have certain assurances from LC 
before investing yet more thousands of £ into them. However, that has all been 
proven to be LIES.

And this is the real reason of late I have been up on MY high horse. Because 
time and time again, things promised are NEVER delivered. Except FMPro so we 
are led to believe. If they were really making so many sales, Jacque, why on 
earth would they be begging for money to help them out?? Why don’t they call on 
their new FM partners or users??

In response to the question ‘what on earth made you believe it would be 100% 
cross platform’. Look on their homepage. The first 2 sections repeat it several 
times. According to that they have built their own system that delivers just 
this. Backed up by images that make it appear to be exactly this way with 
identical screen shots from multiple platforms. And they say it DOES NOT NEED 
ADDITIONAL CODE!!

How are you going to defend them this time? LC have not responded to this or my 
other posts. THEY KNOW I’M RIGHT and are keeping out of the frame.

Look at the bug report from my original post. Look at it. 15 years on, STILL 
NOT FIXED. Confirmed as a bug. Nothing done.

I want to give up so desperately but I am forced into carrying on until LC 
drive me into hospital yet again. I think I’ve explained enough above to show 
why that is. I’m doomed. I’m facing my own inevitable demise like someone with 
cancer.

But I won’t go down without a fight!

All the best to the best of you all. (But not the rest of you) ;)

Sean Cole
Pi Digital
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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Pi Digital via use-livecode
Hi Mike

I agree. But if you are providing the identical, Paid for font (and those 
things aren’t cheap to a tv  programme maker) then you would expect them to 
show up in the same place in the text field from one platform to another. I 
just don’t get that it’s been 15 years and they still can’t get this right. 

I’ve been forced to go through all of the fields and write code for each one of 
them to reposition them. Some I can ‘get away with. But where they need to 
appear central to a graphic (which there are a hundred of) it stands out badly 
and the customer, of course, notices as in my example pictures of my OP. 

LC Mark or Kevin, care to respond? I WONT let it lay without one. 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Productions Ltd


eMail Ts & Cs


> On 25 Aug 2020, at 14:45, Mike Kerner via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> this has always been a problem with multiple development tools, at least
> for as long as I can remember x-platform development tools and WYSIWYG
> being a thing, so Win 95, and MacOS 6 or 7 (uh...7?).  I agree it would be
> great if LC would try harder, since the goal is to make the developer's
> life easier, and if the mantra and the goal is to design it/lay it out/code
> it once, then that should be what you get.
> some development tools have gone so far as to use style sheets, so on one
> platform you have different sizes (or different fonts) to accommodate the
> issues, but i'm not a fan.  there are too many exceptions to the rule, and
> you're always chasing "good enough", which is "good enough", until you rap
> your knuckles on the next exception.
> at least for us, the easiest thing to do has been to size objects for the
> mac, because we have found that on the mac, fonts render slightly larger,
> and therefore wrap or overflow.  then when we port to windoze, things are
> ok.
> 
>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 9:29 AM Richmond via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Well; let's consider that suggestion:
>> 
>> 1. The Holy Grail was an abstract idea dreamt up by the Knights Templars.
>> 
>> 2. Most people have worked out by the time they are about 35 that
>> perfection is a dangerous illusion.
>> 
>> 3. "Years of hell": Why do you suppose the OP has stuck with LiveCode
>> for the length of time he has if it has been 'hell'?
>> 
>> 4. "find another language that will do exactly what you want" . . .
>> ouch, I hurt my leg falling off the chair with laughter.
>> 
>> 5. Why do I get a "funny feeling" that by calling yourself 'Paul
>> Pystcat' you are an undercover agent pushing Python (a language
>> which I could say one or two "fruity" things about)?
>> 
>> 6. The OP is NOT a fool; that is quite obvious from his previous
>> postings over a number of years, and he would not be
>> posting the sort of thing he posted if he were considering abandonong
>> LiveCode.
>> 
>> 7. Err . . . on the subject of rants and "squishes" . . .
>> 
>>> On 25.08.20 16:11, Paul Pystcat via use-livecode wrote:
>>> I really have to ask…  if you are having such problems that are so
>> insurmountable using LiveCode, then why not just abandon ship…?
>> Seriously.  If this is such a showstopper, why not find another language
>> that will do exactly what you want..?  Don’t waste any more of your time.
>> Do it.  You may find the Holy Grail and all will be well… you can look back
>> on your years of hell with LiveCode and laugh at us that remain.
>>> 
 On Aug 25, 2020, at 6:01 AM, Pi Digital via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
 
 Not Fridge, Fork.
 
 I assume (dangerously) from your reply that you do not have to make
>> real world applications for corporate branded customers. Where design has
>> been done by a branding team with a 12 - 120 page Production guide).
>> Someone like the BBC, Channel 4, NBC, or their subsidiaries. Like Saatchi
>> and Saatchi, Mars, Ford, Pfizer, Virgin, VTech, Bandai.
 
 My case study this project. Two week turnaround (first week primary
>> development wireframed , second week skin and output for Windows(primary
>> output)/Mac(Backup)). Tv gameshow multiscreen (some split across multiple
>> screens themselves) for live recording screen graphics. 35 cards (or
>> frames, pages, slides, whatever you want to call them) plus video inserts
>> all with live updated content input by a controller on a remote machine (pc
>> or Mac as they see fit on the day) as the show progresses.
 
 As the platform my POC and his office colleagues was using was a PC it
>> made sense to do development in Windows for output to PC and Mac for studio
>> techs to pick from based on location around the studio (the gallery for
>> controllers, back stage and stage floor). It is arse-umed that how it looks
>> on Windows is how it should look on any other platform we distribute to
>> including the various output sizes (1024x576SD, 960x540HHD, 1920x1080HD,
>> 3840x2160 4k). Everything has to match to the pixel. That’s how branding
>> works. We have 

Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Pi Digital via use-livecode
Paul

It’s a reasonable question so I’ll afford it the dignity it deserves. Here’s 
the thing. With thousands of £ invested in them including when they beg for 
money to help them out during times of distress you end up almost locked into 
their ecosystem. Besides, my main bread and butter client is 100% LiveCode 
dépendant so I HAVE to continue down the LC route. 

Unless I do what Richmond suggests, which has often been on my mind, and just 
jump ship and abandon my client. I’ve had partnerships I’ve had to do this with 
before, mostly due to their poor business skills though. This one has been 
nothing but good to me especially since I came out of the mental hospital two 
years ago. I wouldn’t want to insult him. 

And therein lies the rub because, to achieve the html conversion of his app his 
clients were effectively demanding, I had to have certain assurances from LC 
before investing yet more thousands of £ into them. However, that has all been 
proven to be LIES. 

And this is the real reason of late I have been up on MY high horse. Because 
time and time again, things promised are NEVER delivered. Except FMPro so we 
are led to believe. If they were really making so many sales, Jacque, why on 
earth would they be begging for money to help them out?? Why don’t they call on 
their new FM partners or users?? 

In response to the question ‘what on earth made you believe it would be 100% 
cross platform’. Look on their homepage. The first 2 sections repeat it several 
times. According to that they have built their own system that delivers just 
this. Backed up by images that make it appear to be exactly this way with 
identical screen shots from multiple platforms. And they say it DOES NOT NEED 
ADDITIONAL CODE!!

How are you going to defend them this time? LC have not responded to this or my 
other posts. THEY KNOW I’M RIGHT and are keeping out of the frame. 

Look at the bug report from my original post. Look at it. 15 years on, STILL 
NOT FIXED. Confirmed as a bug. Nothing done. 

I want to give up so desperately but I am forced into carrying on until LC 
drive me into hospital yet again. I think I’ve explained enough above to show 
why that is. I’m doomed. I’m facing my own inevitable demise like someone with 
cancer. 

But I won’t go down without a fight!

All the best to the best of you all. (But not the rest of you) ;)

Sean Cole
Pi Digital
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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Mike Kerner via use-livecode
this has always been a problem with multiple development tools, at least
for as long as I can remember x-platform development tools and WYSIWYG
being a thing, so Win 95, and MacOS 6 or 7 (uh...7?).  I agree it would be
great if LC would try harder, since the goal is to make the developer's
life easier, and if the mantra and the goal is to design it/lay it out/code
it once, then that should be what you get.
some development tools have gone so far as to use style sheets, so on one
platform you have different sizes (or different fonts) to accommodate the
issues, but i'm not a fan.  there are too many exceptions to the rule, and
you're always chasing "good enough", which is "good enough", until you rap
your knuckles on the next exception.
at least for us, the easiest thing to do has been to size objects for the
mac, because we have found that on the mac, fonts render slightly larger,
and therefore wrap or overflow.  then when we port to windoze, things are
ok.

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 9:29 AM Richmond via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Well; let's consider that suggestion:
>
> 1. The Holy Grail was an abstract idea dreamt up by the Knights Templars.
>
> 2. Most people have worked out by the time they are about 35 that
> perfection is a dangerous illusion.
>
> 3. "Years of hell": Why do you suppose the OP has stuck with LiveCode
> for the length of time he has if it has been 'hell'?
>
> 4. "find another language that will do exactly what you want" . . .
> ouch, I hurt my leg falling off the chair with laughter.
>
> 5. Why do I get a "funny feeling" that by calling yourself 'Paul
> Pystcat' you are an undercover agent pushing Python (a language
> which I could say one or two "fruity" things about)?
>
> 6. The OP is NOT a fool; that is quite obvious from his previous
> postings over a number of years, and he would not be
> posting the sort of thing he posted if he were considering abandonong
> LiveCode.
>
> 7. Err . . . on the subject of rants and "squishes" . . .
>
> On 25.08.20 16:11, Paul Pystcat via use-livecode wrote:
> > I really have to ask…  if you are having such problems that are so
> insurmountable using LiveCode, then why not just abandon ship…?
> Seriously.  If this is such a showstopper, why not find another language
> that will do exactly what you want..?  Don’t waste any more of your time.
> Do it.  You may find the Holy Grail and all will be well… you can look back
> on your years of hell with LiveCode and laugh at us that remain.
> >
> >> On Aug 25, 2020, at 6:01 AM, Pi Digital via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Not Fridge, Fork.
> >>
> >> I assume (dangerously) from your reply that you do not have to make
> real world applications for corporate branded customers. Where design has
> been done by a branding team with a 12 - 120 page Production guide).
> Someone like the BBC, Channel 4, NBC, or their subsidiaries. Like Saatchi
> and Saatchi, Mars, Ford, Pfizer, Virgin, VTech, Bandai.
> >>
> >> My case study this project. Two week turnaround (first week primary
> development wireframed , second week skin and output for Windows(primary
> output)/Mac(Backup)). Tv gameshow multiscreen (some split across multiple
> screens themselves) for live recording screen graphics. 35 cards (or
> frames, pages, slides, whatever you want to call them) plus video inserts
> all with live updated content input by a controller on a remote machine (pc
> or Mac as they see fit on the day) as the show progresses.
> >>
> >> As the platform my POC and his office colleagues was using was a PC it
> made sense to do development in Windows for output to PC and Mac for studio
> techs to pick from based on location around the studio (the gallery for
> controllers, back stage and stage floor). It is arse-umed that how it looks
> on Windows is how it should look on any other platform we distribute to
> including the various output sizes (1024x576SD, 960x540HHD, 1920x1080HD,
> 3840x2160 4k). Everything has to match to the pixel. That’s how branding
> works. We have no issue with that moving between platforms in editing and
> graphics platforms, so post production facilities (mine included) could not
> conceive or perceive that it would be any different in a development
> environment. Design it in photoshop on a pc and send it to your colleagues
> working in After Effects on a Mac and send it back to an editor on a PC
> running Premiere and it looks the same end to end. That is ‘just the way it
> is’!
> >>
> >> So, after developing at a stupid rate, 12 solid 14-18hr days, we have
> the finished app layered out (don’t get me back on the layering embargo),
> animated with text & graphic moves and effects, ready for deployment out to
> Mac and PC. Tick the boxes in the standalone settings, build and open in
> their respective platforms.
> >>
> >> Only to find that everything you had laid out perfectly matching on PC
> is totally screwed on the Mac. Opening up the stack on the 

Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Richmond via use-livecode

Well; let's consider that suggestion:

1. The Holy Grail was an abstract idea dreamt up by the Knights Templars.

2. Most people have worked out by the time they are about 35 that 
perfection is a dangerous illusion.


3. "Years of hell": Why do you suppose the OP has stuck with LiveCode 
for the length of time he has if it has been 'hell'?


4. "find another language that will do exactly what you want" . . . 
ouch, I hurt my leg falling off the chair with laughter.


5. Why do I get a "funny feeling" that by calling yourself 'Paul 
Pystcat' you are an undercover agent pushing Python (a language

which I could say one or two "fruity" things about)?

6. The OP is NOT a fool; that is quite obvious from his previous 
postings over a number of years, and he would not be
posting the sort of thing he posted if he were considering abandonong 
LiveCode.


7. Err . . . on the subject of rants and "squishes" . . .

On 25.08.20 16:11, Paul Pystcat via use-livecode wrote:

I really have to ask…  if you are having such problems that are so 
insurmountable using LiveCode, then why not just abandon ship…?  Seriously.  If 
this is such a showstopper, why not find another language that will do exactly 
what you want..?  Don’t waste any more of your time.  Do it.  You may find the 
Holy Grail and all will be well… you can look back on your years of hell with 
LiveCode and laugh at us that remain.


On Aug 25, 2020, at 6:01 AM, Pi Digital via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Not Fridge, Fork.

I assume (dangerously) from your reply that you do not have to make real world 
applications for corporate branded customers. Where design has been done by a 
branding team with a 12 - 120 page Production guide). Someone like the BBC, 
Channel 4, NBC, or their subsidiaries. Like Saatchi and Saatchi, Mars, Ford, 
Pfizer, Virgin, VTech, Bandai.

My case study this project. Two week turnaround (first week primary development 
wireframed , second week skin and output for Windows(primary 
output)/Mac(Backup)). Tv gameshow multiscreen (some split across multiple 
screens themselves) for live recording screen graphics. 35 cards (or frames, 
pages, slides, whatever you want to call them) plus video inserts all with live 
updated content input by a controller on a remote machine (pc or Mac as they 
see fit on the day) as the show progresses.

As the platform my POC and his office colleagues was using was a PC it made 
sense to do development in Windows for output to PC and Mac for studio techs to 
pick from based on location around the studio (the gallery for controllers, 
back stage and stage floor). It is arse-umed that how it looks on Windows is 
how it should look on any other platform we distribute to including the various 
output sizes (1024x576SD, 960x540HHD, 1920x1080HD, 3840x2160 4k). Everything 
has to match to the pixel. That’s how branding works. We have no issue with 
that moving between platforms in editing and graphics platforms, so post 
production facilities (mine included) could not conceive or perceive that it 
would be any different in a development environment. Design it in photoshop on 
a pc and send it to your colleagues working in After Effects on a Mac and send 
it back to an editor on a PC running Premiere and it looks the same end to end. 
That is ‘just the way it is’!

So, after developing at a stupid rate, 12 solid 14-18hr days, we have the finished 
app layered out (don’t get me back on the layering embargo), animated with text 
& graphic moves and effects, ready for deployment out to Mac and PC. Tick the 
boxes in the standalone settings, build and open in their respective platforms.

Only to find that everything you had laid out perfectly matching on PC is 
totally screwed on the Mac. Opening up the stack on the Mac, it’s the same 
thing. Now with only one day to go I am forced to work out the fastest way to 
realign every text box (anything from 2 - 200 per card) so they match exactly 
regardless of platform. Like is done automatically on any other software we use.

That’s ‘real world’ development. Not to mention my current bread and butter job 
for Porrima which has, to date, 47 substacks, 377 cards, 10,800+ text objects 
and  is now being ported from PC o et to HTML5 by way of a tonne of 
NON-CODE-ONCE workarounds and layout alterations.

It’s this kind of BS that keeps me mental, ensures I don’t get too sane. Makes 
sure you get a good rant out of me every week or month.

Sean Cole
Pi Digital

That is HowTF  (What do you mean exactly by "How Tin Fridge"?) ;-), I get
things done.

Best, Richmond.

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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Paul Pystcat via use-livecode
I really have to ask…  if you are having such problems that are so 
insurmountable using LiveCode, then why not just abandon ship…?  Seriously.  If 
this is such a showstopper, why not find another language that will do exactly 
what you want..?  Don’t waste any more of your time.  Do it.  You may find the 
Holy Grail and all will be well… you can look back on your years of hell with 
LiveCode and laugh at us that remain.

> On Aug 25, 2020, at 6:01 AM, Pi Digital via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Not Fridge, Fork. 
> 
> I assume (dangerously) from your reply that you do not have to make real 
> world applications for corporate branded customers. Where design has been 
> done by a branding team with a 12 - 120 page Production guide). Someone like 
> the BBC, Channel 4, NBC, or their subsidiaries. Like Saatchi and Saatchi, 
> Mars, Ford, Pfizer, Virgin, VTech, Bandai. 
> 
> My case study this project. Two week turnaround (first week primary 
> development wireframed , second week skin and output for Windows(primary 
> output)/Mac(Backup)). Tv gameshow multiscreen (some split across multiple 
> screens themselves) for live recording screen graphics. 35 cards (or frames, 
> pages, slides, whatever you want to call them) plus video inserts all with 
> live updated content input by a controller on a remote machine (pc or Mac as 
> they see fit on the day) as the show progresses. 
> 
> As the platform my POC and his office colleagues was using was a PC it made 
> sense to do development in Windows for output to PC and Mac for studio techs 
> to pick from based on location around the studio (the gallery for 
> controllers, back stage and stage floor). It is arse-umed that how it looks 
> on Windows is how it should look on any other platform we distribute to 
> including the various output sizes (1024x576SD, 960x540HHD, 1920x1080HD, 
> 3840x2160 4k). Everything has to match to the pixel. That’s how branding 
> works. We have no issue with that moving between platforms in editing and 
> graphics platforms, so post production facilities (mine included) could not 
> conceive or perceive that it would be any different in a development 
> environment. Design it in photoshop on a pc and send it to your colleagues 
> working in After Effects on a Mac and send it back to an editor on a PC 
> running Premiere and it looks the same end to end. That is ‘just the way it 
> is’! 
> 
> So, after developing at a stupid rate, 12 solid 14-18hr days, we have the 
> finished app layered out (don’t get me back on the layering embargo), 
> animated with text & graphic moves and effects, ready for deployment out to 
> Mac and PC. Tick the boxes in the standalone settings, build and open in 
> their respective platforms. 
> 
> Only to find that everything you had laid out perfectly matching on PC is 
> totally screwed on the Mac. Opening up the stack on the Mac, it’s the same 
> thing. Now with only one day to go I am forced to work out the fastest way to 
> realign every text box (anything from 2 - 200 per card) so they match exactly 
> regardless of platform. Like is done automatically on any other software we 
> use.
> 
> That’s ‘real world’ development. Not to mention my current bread and butter 
> job for Porrima which has, to date, 47 substacks, 377 cards, 10,800+ text 
> objects and  is now being ported from PC o et to HTML5 by way of a tonne of 
> NON-CODE-ONCE workarounds and layout alterations.
> 
> It’s this kind of BS that keeps me mental, ensures I don’t get too sane. 
> Makes sure you get a good rant out of me every week or month. 
> 
> Sean Cole
> Pi Digital
>> 
>> That is HowTF  (What do you mean exactly by "How Tin Fridge"?) ;-), I get
>> things done.
>> 
>> Best, Richmond.
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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Richmond via use-livecode

Not a dangerous assumption at all, I assure you.

I do sympathise:

I made many applications for the United Arab Emirates University about 
22 years ago (HyperCard & Toolbook) and
was constantly falling foul of my bosses who knew nothing of the 
exigencies of either MacOS 8.1 or Windows NT,
and failed to understand that I just could NOT develop stuff with 
HyperCard for Macintosh that would exactly resemble

the things I was develpoing for NT with Toolbook.

I subsequently developed a commercial package using RunRev 2 (that's 
early LiveCode) and fell foul of my
employer again because of lack of cross-platform "transparency" between 
Windows 2000 and MacOS 9.1 and "X".


That was when I decided to make my primary income in a way which 
involved no bosses of any sort whatsoever, ever again.


I do know what "HowTF" means.

Next week I will be back in a physical classroom in my own EFL school, 
and, frankly, I could stand on my head and

blow bubbles through my nose, and would only be answerable to myself.

But, when I was 19 I hitch-hiked from Perth (in Scotland) to just south 
of Edinburgh with a bloke who was a career advisor
who told me that everyone should be their own boss by the time they were 
40. I didn't quite manage that, becoming my own

boss at 42.

Believe me: the water's warm and contains no sharks. :)

However; what on earth made you believe that LiveCode was 100% 
cross-platform? This is a bit like believing
(when one is 17) that all women (or any at all) will look like the 
air-brushed freaks one sees in Playboy.


I am sure that my income is far, far less than yours (well, it works out 
as about £1,000 a month), but the fridge
is full, my wife and I only fight about things that are not 
work-related, and I'm a happy camper.


And as you should be well aware by now; my rants are usually when I get 
up on my high-horse about something that,

in the great scheme of things, is really neither here nor there. :)

It might be time for you to "run away".

Best, Richmond.

On 25.08.20 13:01, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote:

Not Fridge, Fork.

I assume (dangerously) from your reply that you do not have to make real world 
applications for corporate branded customers. Where design has been done by a 
branding team with a 12 - 120 page Production guide). Someone like the BBC, 
Channel 4, NBC, or their subsidiaries. Like Saatchi and Saatchi, Mars, Ford, 
Pfizer, Virgin, VTech, Bandai.

My case study this project. Two week turnaround (first week primary development 
wireframed , second week skin and output for Windows(primary 
output)/Mac(Backup)). Tv gameshow multiscreen (some split across multiple 
screens themselves) for live recording screen graphics. 35 cards (or frames, 
pages, slides, whatever you want to call them) plus video inserts all with live 
updated content input by a controller on a remote machine (pc or Mac as they 
see fit on the day) as the show progresses.

As the platform my POC and his office colleagues was using was a PC it made 
sense to do development in Windows for output to PC and Mac for studio techs to 
pick from based on location around the studio (the gallery for controllers, 
back stage and stage floor). It is arse-umed that how it looks on Windows is 
how it should look on any other platform we distribute to including the various 
output sizes (1024x576SD, 960x540HHD, 1920x1080HD, 3840x2160 4k). Everything 
has to match to the pixel. That’s how branding works. We have no issue with 
that moving between platforms in editing and graphics platforms, so post 
production facilities (mine included) could not conceive or perceive that it 
would be any different in a development environment. Design it in photoshop on 
a pc and send it to your colleagues working in After Effects on a Mac and send 
it back to an editor on a PC running Premiere and it looks the same end to end. 
That is ‘just the way it is’!

So, after developing at a stupid rate, 12 solid 14-18hr days, we have the finished 
app layered out (don’t get me back on the layering embargo), animated with text 
& graphic moves and effects, ready for deployment out to Mac and PC. Tick the 
boxes in the standalone settings, build and open in their respective platforms.

Only to find that everything you had laid out perfectly matching on PC is 
totally screwed on the Mac. Opening up the stack on the Mac, it’s the same 
thing. Now with only one day to go I am forced to work out the fastest way to 
realign every text box (anything from 2 - 200 per card) so they match exactly 
regardless of platform. Like is done automatically on any other software we use.

That’s ‘real world’ development. Not to mention my current bread and butter job 
for Porrima which has, to date, 47 substacks, 377 cards, 10,800+ text objects 
and  is now being ported from PC o et to HTML5 by way of a tonne of 
NON-CODE-ONCE workarounds and layout alterations.

It’s this kind of BS that keeps me mental, ensures I don’t get too sane. Makes 
sure you get 

Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode
I wondered how Java dealt with the issue of rendering fonts across
platforms. It seems they have (had) the same problems you are experiencing.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/12202758/how-to-make-java-swing-application-has-a-consistent-font-in-windows-and-linux

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/11994407/using-java-to-develop-cross-platform-fonts-scaling-differently-on-different-pla

Those posts are 8 years old (that they've been viewed 1000s of times
suggests this is pain that was felt by many). Maybe things have changed for
the better in Javaland. But it's more likely that Java is less used for
desktop apps than it was 8 years ago. I know that I only use one Java app
across my computers.

Regards
Bernard

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 5:03 AM Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Yet again, everyone happy to make excuses in accepting their fate to have
> to do all the work twice. I might as well code it in Java, C# and Swift for
> all the hassle I get in LC. It's laughable how excuses are made for them.
>
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Pi Digital via use-livecode
Not Fridge, Fork. 

I assume (dangerously) from your reply that you do not have to make real world 
applications for corporate branded customers. Where design has been done by a 
branding team with a 12 - 120 page Production guide). Someone like the BBC, 
Channel 4, NBC, or their subsidiaries. Like Saatchi and Saatchi, Mars, Ford, 
Pfizer, Virgin, VTech, Bandai. 

My case study this project. Two week turnaround (first week primary development 
wireframed , second week skin and output for Windows(primary 
output)/Mac(Backup)). Tv gameshow multiscreen (some split across multiple 
screens themselves) for live recording screen graphics. 35 cards (or frames, 
pages, slides, whatever you want to call them) plus video inserts all with live 
updated content input by a controller on a remote machine (pc or Mac as they 
see fit on the day) as the show progresses. 

As the platform my POC and his office colleagues was using was a PC it made 
sense to do development in Windows for output to PC and Mac for studio techs to 
pick from based on location around the studio (the gallery for controllers, 
back stage and stage floor). It is arse-umed that how it looks on Windows is 
how it should look on any other platform we distribute to including the various 
output sizes (1024x576SD, 960x540HHD, 1920x1080HD, 3840x2160 4k). Everything 
has to match to the pixel. That’s how branding works. We have no issue with 
that moving between platforms in editing and graphics platforms, so post 
production facilities (mine included) could not conceive or perceive that it 
would be any different in a development environment. Design it in photoshop on 
a pc and send it to your colleagues working in After Effects on a Mac and send 
it back to an editor on a PC running Premiere and it looks the same end to end. 
That is ‘just the way it is’! 

So, after developing at a stupid rate, 12 solid 14-18hr days, we have the 
finished app layered out (don’t get me back on the layering embargo), animated 
with text & graphic moves and effects, ready for deployment out to Mac and PC. 
Tick the boxes in the standalone settings, build and open in their respective 
platforms. 

Only to find that everything you had laid out perfectly matching on PC is 
totally screwed on the Mac. Opening up the stack on the Mac, it’s the same 
thing. Now with only one day to go I am forced to work out the fastest way to 
realign every text box (anything from 2 - 200 per card) so they match exactly 
regardless of platform. Like is done automatically on any other software we use.

That’s ‘real world’ development. Not to mention my current bread and butter job 
for Porrima which has, to date, 47 substacks, 377 cards, 10,800+ text objects 
and  is now being ported from PC o et to HTML5 by way of a tonne of 
NON-CODE-ONCE workarounds and layout alterations.

It’s this kind of BS that keeps me mental, ensures I don’t get too sane. Makes 
sure you get a good rant out of me every week or month. 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital
> 
> That is HowTF  (What do you mean exactly by "How Tin Fridge"?) ;-), I get
> things done.
> 
> Best, Richmond.
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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-25 Thread Richmond via use-livecode

Well: stew my foot and call me "Brenda" . . .

https://youtu.be/sLeG7gxIJx4

those 2 pictures look extremely similar to me.

I, frankly, never worry about fonts in things like that cross-platform
for the very, very simple reason that I set up the thing the way I want on
the platform I'm working on and import a snapshot of it, so it is exactly
the same wherever it ends up.

That is HowTF  (What do you mean exactly by "How Tin Fridge"?) ;-), I get
things done.

Best, Richmond.

On 25.08.20 0:59, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:

Hi Richmond, buddy.

The font IS embedded. Not a problem using the font itself. It is the same
physical font on the two platforms. That's not what I'm asking when you
read past paragraph one.

HowTF do you get them to show up in the same 'fin place though (ie, the
pixel placement of the text itself, baseline, etc) from one platform to the
next?

Looking at the images and reading the request properly first before
commenting always helps. ;)

--

Side note follow up:
put fontstyles("Arial",0) - Put that in Windows and Mac messagebox and get
two different results -- MIND BLOWN! It's 2020 people. This was solved back
in the 70's, wasn't it? Who's overcomplicating this?

 From Livecode.com landing page:

Extremely Multiplatform Now with HTML5

Create native applications for iOS, Android, Windows, Mac, Linux, Server &
The Web all from the same code.
Code once, deploy to billions of devices. LiveCode is a truly
multi-platform programming tool with iOS, Android, Mac, Windows, Linux,
Server & HTML5 deployment options.


'CODE ONCE!' (With a billion workarounds to make it display the same across
platforms).

Not exactly what it says on the tin, is it!?!

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *

On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 22:38, Richmond via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:


How about embedding your fonts in the standalone?

On 24.08.20 23:49, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:

Hi all,

What is the current 'workaround' everyone is using when creating a
cross-platform app to make sure that all text appears the same regardless
of platform? Particularly between Windows and Mac for me at the moment.

My client provided the font they needed in line with their tv show brand.
They need the app to work both PC and Mac. It seems I have to manually go
through each field, button and widget and make sure they are laid out
properly. The left, right, center alignments don't always match and the
vertical position certainly never matches.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v50aj7uv06bh4d9/MacText.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pry5teqp89xzbun/PCText.png?dl=0

(This dates all the way to bug 3076!! Pretty awesome to hold onto a bug
reported back in 2005 for something so basic. Kudos to LC for keeping on
top of it.)

Also, side note, does anyone remember why we STILL have a discrepancy
between fontnames() in Mac and Windows? Not only do the windows fonts

show

alphabetically and mac dramatically out of order, but also, the names
themselves are screwed up:

 1. eg, Windows: Helvetica Neue
 2. Mac: Helvetica, Helvetica Bold, Helvetica Bold Oblique, Helvetica
 Light, Helvetica Light Oblique, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica Neue Bold,
 Helvetica Neue Bold Italic, Helvetica Neue Condensed Black,

Helvetica Neue

 Condensed Bold, Helvetica Neue Italic, Helvetica Neue Light,

Helvetica Neue

 Light Italic, Helvetica Neue Medium, Helvetica Neue Medium Italic,
 Helvetica Neue Thin, Helvetica Neue Thin Italic, Helvetica Neue

UltraLight,

 Helvetica Neue UltraLight Italic, Helvetica Oblique


 - eg. Windows: Arial, Arial Rounded MT, Arial Unicode MS
 - Mac: Arial, Arial, Arial Black, Arial Bold, Arial Bold, Arial Bold
 Italic, Arial Bold Italic, Arial Hebrew, Arial Hebrew Bold, Arial

Hebrew

 Light, Arial Hebrew Scholar, Arial Hebrew Scholar Bold, Arial Hebrew
 Scholar Light, Arial Italic, Arial Italic, Arial Narrow, Arial

Narrow Bold,

 Arial Narrow Bold Italic, Arial Narrow Italic, Arial Rounded MT

Bold, Arial

 Unicode MS

This is bonkers for a SDK that purports to make it 'Easy' to make
cross-platform apps.

Thanks all

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *
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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-24 Thread Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode
It's hardly 'Code Once' then. You absolutely HAVE to write for each OS
specifically. Livecode DOES NOT pull up the slack and make it work
cross-platform identically as insinuated in their homepage.

Yet again, everyone happy to make excuses in accepting their fate to have
to do all the work twice. I might as well code it in Java, C# and Swift for
all the hassle I get in LC. It's laughable how excuses are made for them.

If LC is rendering it out, they must know, from experimentation, how each
system renders and compensate accordingly - in the engine. If I am feeding
it a ttf or whatever, and they are effectively creating an OS operating
within the given platform, they have better control over how things are
rendered at engine level.

If I do artwork in photoshop, Premier, After effects with text layers and
open it up in another platform, guess what?? It damn well looks identical
(as long as the font is installed)! Your excuses cut no mustard with me.
I've been doing this since the late 80's early 90's.

It negates having, in the standalone settings, the need to have checkboxes
for each platform like you can happily output for all in one go. I always,
still, to date, end up with a stack saved for windows, another for mac,
another for whatever else. It's soo stupid, otherwise, I end up with a
tonne of 'if platform() is "fecked up" then' conditions for every display
code I do! When I need to make an update, I end up having to go back over
what I've changed and copy-paste it into the other stacks as best I can
avoiding the differences for font height and placing changes and all the
other NON-CODE-ONCE discrepancies between the platforms. IT IS ABSOLUTELY
FALSE ADVERTISING!!! I'm effing SERIOUS! I've been lied to FAR TOO MUCH by
LC, and you guys just backing them up with really LAME excuses. I mean, do
any of you write multiplatform? How the eff do you manage to account for
and compensate for the display discrepancies (short of them being lame-ass
apps that layout in crappy 80s fashion, basically no better than the old
Hypercard style)?

It IS supposed to be the POINT of LC!

On the LC homepage:
One code base -- LiveCode is cross platform so you won’t have to write
extra code for each platform you deploy to. This avoids having to write
your app multiple times for multiple platforms saving you crucial developer
time.

EFF OFF!!! Total BS!! Saving me frikin time, my buttocks! I'm forever going
round in circles trying to work out what crappy workaround I have to use
this time because some feature on LC isn't functioning correctly, only to
find when attempting to put it up on the 'Quality' (yet another JOKE!)
bugzilla site, that it's a bug that has already existed for anything
between 4 to 15 friggin years.

UNACCEPTABLE!!

And, don't you dare say 'it's just the way it is' or 'the way it's always
been'. Unacceptable! Change the way it is! Put the way it's always been
behind us! MAKE IT EFFIN WORK!!

Seriously!
Sean Cole
*Pi Digital*

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 03:43, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On August 24, 2020 5:01:54 PM "Sean Cole \(Pi\) via use-livecode"
>  wrote:
>
> > The font IS embedded. Not a problem using the font itself. It is the same
> > physical font on the two platforms. That's not what I'm asking when you
> > read past paragraph one.
> >
> > HowTF do you get them to show up in the same 'fin place though (ie, the
> > pixel placement of the text itself, baseline, etc) from one platform to
> the
> > next?
>
> Mac and Windows have always rendered fonts differently, the font rendering
> is done by the OS. Talk to Apple, MicroSoft and Google about it (Android
> and iOS are each unique too.) The text will always start at the same place
> but will render differently from there depending on the OS. You may be
> able
> to adjust the baselines by tinkering with the textheight per platform. You
> will never exactly match the text wrap. In general I leave extra space in
> a
> field to accomodate Windows font rendering. Here's why:
>
>
> https://damieng.com/blog/2007/06/13/font-rendering-philosophies-of-windows-and-mac-os-x
>
>
> > Side note follow up:
> > put fontstyles("Arial",0) - Put that in Windows and Mac messagebox and
> get
> > two different results -- MIND BLOWN! It's 2020 people. This was solved
> back
> > in the 70's, wasn't it? Who's overcomplicating this?
>
> The various operating systems. LC asks the OS what fonts are available,
> and
> each OS returns its own interpretation of what it has (apparently Windows
> does more consolidation by font family than Mac.This is a disadvantage
> sometimes when you do need to know the font file name in order to set a
> specific style.) LC relies on the OS for a whole lot of its info and
> operations, which it passes on to us. It could hardly do otherwise,
> without
> writing its own OS.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
>
>
> 

Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-24 Thread J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
On August 24, 2020 5:01:54 PM "Sean Cole \(Pi\) via use-livecode" 
 wrote:



The font IS embedded. Not a problem using the font itself. It is the same
physical font on the two platforms. That's not what I'm asking when you
read past paragraph one.

HowTF do you get them to show up in the same 'fin place though (ie, the
pixel placement of the text itself, baseline, etc) from one platform to the
next?


Mac and Windows have always rendered fonts differently, the font rendering 
is done by the OS. Talk to Apple, MicroSoft and Google about it (Android 
and iOS are each unique too.) The text will always start at the same place 
but will render differently from there depending on the OS. You may be able 
to adjust the baselines by tinkering with the textheight per platform. You 
will never exactly match the text wrap. In general I leave extra space in a 
field to accomodate Windows font rendering. Here's why:


https://damieng.com/blog/2007/06/13/font-rendering-philosophies-of-windows-and-mac-os-x



Side note follow up:
put fontstyles("Arial",0) - Put that in Windows and Mac messagebox and get
two different results -- MIND BLOWN! It's 2020 people. This was solved back
in the 70's, wasn't it? Who's overcomplicating this?


The various operating systems. LC asks the OS what fonts are available, and 
each OS returns its own interpretation of what it has (apparently Windows 
does more consolidation by font family than Mac.This is a disadvantage 
sometimes when you do need to know the font file name in order to set a 
specific style.) LC relies on the OS for a whole lot of its info and 
operations, which it passes on to us. It could hardly do otherwise, without 
writing its own OS.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-24 Thread Richard Gaskin via use-livecode

Sean Cole wrote:

> What is the current 'workaround' everyone is using when creating a
> cross-platform app to make sure that all text appears the same
> regardless of platform? Particularly between Windows and Mac for
> me at the moment.

Font metrics will differ between OSes because the underlying rendering 
method used by each OS is different.


Have you delivered cross-platform apps in which you found no difference 
at all?


The closest I can imagine might be PDF, achievable with some settings 
only by decomposing the font into the Postscript describing the page.


Even browsers, with their multi-million-dollar code bases and their 
mind-bending efforts to make things as uniform as practical across 
platforms, will evidence the difference in OS rendering subsystems.


If you've found anything that corrects for this, I would enjoy learning 
about it. I can't even imagine how such a thing would work, so I'd learn 
a lot.



> Also, side note, does anyone remember why we STILL have a discrepancy
> between fontnames() in Mac and Windows? Not only do the windows fonts
> show alphabetically and mac dramatically out of order, but also, the
> names themselves are screwed up...

My understanding is that it's the same as when getting a list of files 
in a directory, the names are returned in the order given to LC by the 
host OS.


The sort command can be used where sorting is needed.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-24 Thread Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode
Hi Richmond, buddy.

The font IS embedded. Not a problem using the font itself. It is the same
physical font on the two platforms. That's not what I'm asking when you
read past paragraph one.

HowTF do you get them to show up in the same 'fin place though (ie, the
pixel placement of the text itself, baseline, etc) from one platform to the
next?

Looking at the images and reading the request properly first before
commenting always helps. ;)

--

Side note follow up:
put fontstyles("Arial",0) - Put that in Windows and Mac messagebox and get
two different results -- MIND BLOWN! It's 2020 people. This was solved back
in the 70's, wasn't it? Who's overcomplicating this?

>From Livecode.com landing page:

Extremely Multiplatform Now with HTML5
> Create native applications for iOS, Android, Windows, Mac, Linux, Server &
> The Web all from the same code.
> Code once, deploy to billions of devices. LiveCode is a truly
> multi-platform programming tool with iOS, Android, Mac, Windows, Linux,
> Server & HTML5 deployment options.


'CODE ONCE!' (With a billion workarounds to make it display the same across
platforms).

Not exactly what it says on the tin, is it!?!

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *

On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 22:38, Richmond via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> How about embedding your fonts in the standalone?
>
> On 24.08.20 23:49, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > What is the current 'workaround' everyone is using when creating a
> > cross-platform app to make sure that all text appears the same regardless
> > of platform? Particularly between Windows and Mac for me at the moment.
> >
> > My client provided the font they needed in line with their tv show brand.
> > They need the app to work both PC and Mac. It seems I have to manually go
> > through each field, button and widget and make sure they are laid out
> > properly. The left, right, center alignments don't always match and the
> > vertical position certainly never matches.
> > https://www.dropbox.com/s/v50aj7uv06bh4d9/MacText.png?dl=0
> > https://www.dropbox.com/s/pry5teqp89xzbun/PCText.png?dl=0
> >
> > (This dates all the way to bug 3076!! Pretty awesome to hold onto a bug
> > reported back in 2005 for something so basic. Kudos to LC for keeping on
> > top of it.)
> >
> > Also, side note, does anyone remember why we STILL have a discrepancy
> > between fontnames() in Mac and Windows? Not only do the windows fonts
> show
> > alphabetically and mac dramatically out of order, but also, the names
> > themselves are screwed up:
> >
> > 1. eg, Windows: Helvetica Neue
> > 2. Mac: Helvetica, Helvetica Bold, Helvetica Bold Oblique, Helvetica
> > Light, Helvetica Light Oblique, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica Neue Bold,
> > Helvetica Neue Bold Italic, Helvetica Neue Condensed Black,
> Helvetica Neue
> > Condensed Bold, Helvetica Neue Italic, Helvetica Neue Light,
> Helvetica Neue
> > Light Italic, Helvetica Neue Medium, Helvetica Neue Medium Italic,
> > Helvetica Neue Thin, Helvetica Neue Thin Italic, Helvetica Neue
> UltraLight,
> > Helvetica Neue UltraLight Italic, Helvetica Oblique
> >
> >
> > - eg. Windows: Arial, Arial Rounded MT, Arial Unicode MS
> > - Mac: Arial, Arial, Arial Black, Arial Bold, Arial Bold, Arial Bold
> > Italic, Arial Bold Italic, Arial Hebrew, Arial Hebrew Bold, Arial
> Hebrew
> > Light, Arial Hebrew Scholar, Arial Hebrew Scholar Bold, Arial Hebrew
> > Scholar Light, Arial Italic, Arial Italic, Arial Narrow, Arial
> Narrow Bold,
> > Arial Narrow Bold Italic, Arial Narrow Italic, Arial Rounded MT
> Bold, Arial
> > Unicode MS
> >
> > This is bonkers for a SDK that purports to make it 'Easy' to make
> > cross-platform apps.
> >
> > Thanks all
> >
> > Sean Cole
> > *Pi Digital *
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> subscription preferences:
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>
>
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Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-24 Thread Richmond via use-livecode

How about embedding your fonts in the standalone?

On 24.08.20 23:49, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:

Hi all,

What is the current 'workaround' everyone is using when creating a
cross-platform app to make sure that all text appears the same regardless
of platform? Particularly between Windows and Mac for me at the moment.

My client provided the font they needed in line with their tv show brand.
They need the app to work both PC and Mac. It seems I have to manually go
through each field, button and widget and make sure they are laid out
properly. The left, right, center alignments don't always match and the
vertical position certainly never matches.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v50aj7uv06bh4d9/MacText.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pry5teqp89xzbun/PCText.png?dl=0

(This dates all the way to bug 3076!! Pretty awesome to hold onto a bug
reported back in 2005 for something so basic. Kudos to LC for keeping on
top of it.)

Also, side note, does anyone remember why we STILL have a discrepancy
between fontnames() in Mac and Windows? Not only do the windows fonts show
alphabetically and mac dramatically out of order, but also, the names
themselves are screwed up:

1. eg, Windows: Helvetica Neue
2. Mac: Helvetica, Helvetica Bold, Helvetica Bold Oblique, Helvetica
Light, Helvetica Light Oblique, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica Neue Bold,
Helvetica Neue Bold Italic, Helvetica Neue Condensed Black, Helvetica Neue
Condensed Bold, Helvetica Neue Italic, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue
Light Italic, Helvetica Neue Medium, Helvetica Neue Medium Italic,
Helvetica Neue Thin, Helvetica Neue Thin Italic, Helvetica Neue UltraLight,
Helvetica Neue UltraLight Italic, Helvetica Oblique


- eg. Windows: Arial, Arial Rounded MT, Arial Unicode MS
- Mac: Arial, Arial, Arial Black, Arial Bold, Arial Bold, Arial Bold
Italic, Arial Bold Italic, Arial Hebrew, Arial Hebrew Bold, Arial Hebrew
Light, Arial Hebrew Scholar, Arial Hebrew Scholar Bold, Arial Hebrew
Scholar Light, Arial Italic, Arial Italic, Arial Narrow, Arial Narrow Bold,
Arial Narrow Bold Italic, Arial Narrow Italic, Arial Rounded MT Bold, Arial
Unicode MS

This is bonkers for a SDK that purports to make it 'Easy' to make
cross-platform apps.

Thanks all

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *
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Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

2020-08-24 Thread Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode
Hi all,

What is the current 'workaround' everyone is using when creating a
cross-platform app to make sure that all text appears the same regardless
of platform? Particularly between Windows and Mac for me at the moment.

My client provided the font they needed in line with their tv show brand.
They need the app to work both PC and Mac. It seems I have to manually go
through each field, button and widget and make sure they are laid out
properly. The left, right, center alignments don't always match and the
vertical position certainly never matches.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v50aj7uv06bh4d9/MacText.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pry5teqp89xzbun/PCText.png?dl=0

(This dates all the way to bug 3076!! Pretty awesome to hold onto a bug
reported back in 2005 for something so basic. Kudos to LC for keeping on
top of it.)

Also, side note, does anyone remember why we STILL have a discrepancy
between fontnames() in Mac and Windows? Not only do the windows fonts show
alphabetically and mac dramatically out of order, but also, the names
themselves are screwed up:

   1. eg, Windows: Helvetica Neue
   2. Mac: Helvetica, Helvetica Bold, Helvetica Bold Oblique, Helvetica
   Light, Helvetica Light Oblique, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica Neue Bold,
   Helvetica Neue Bold Italic, Helvetica Neue Condensed Black, Helvetica Neue
   Condensed Bold, Helvetica Neue Italic, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue
   Light Italic, Helvetica Neue Medium, Helvetica Neue Medium Italic,
   Helvetica Neue Thin, Helvetica Neue Thin Italic, Helvetica Neue UltraLight,
   Helvetica Neue UltraLight Italic, Helvetica Oblique


   - eg. Windows: Arial, Arial Rounded MT, Arial Unicode MS
   - Mac: Arial, Arial, Arial Black, Arial Bold, Arial Bold, Arial Bold
   Italic, Arial Bold Italic, Arial Hebrew, Arial Hebrew Bold, Arial Hebrew
   Light, Arial Hebrew Scholar, Arial Hebrew Scholar Bold, Arial Hebrew
   Scholar Light, Arial Italic, Arial Italic, Arial Narrow, Arial Narrow Bold,
   Arial Narrow Bold Italic, Arial Narrow Italic, Arial Rounded MT Bold, Arial
   Unicode MS

This is bonkers for a SDK that purports to make it 'Easy' to make
cross-platform apps.

Thanks all

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *
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