Re: I'm a stupid GIT

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Indeed it does, and until recently I really was almost unconscious of 
this, but, then, I stumbled on a
sticking-point with regard to implementing some awkward Grantha 
Samyuktaksharas (what on earth
are those? Don't worry, it's just Richmond posing about his "vast 
knowledge" in an area so obscure it may
have almost no value at all) and Unicode: and . . . licketty-split Mark 
W. both got to work on the problem
and opened my eyes as to just how majorly complex these things are under 
the hood; while all I have

to do is drive the machine.

Of course if I sad that I loved the LiveCode people they'd get the wrong 
impression, so, taking a leaf

out of Michael Jackson's book I'll just say that they are BAD!

Richmond.

On 1/9/17 3:29 pm, Keith Martin via use-livecode wrote:

On 7 Jan 2017, at 21:00, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

The team makes _using_ LC so easy that we often forget that the 
behind-the-scenes work is so complex almost no other company even 
attempts to support as many platforms with this level of integrated 
GUI support.


THIS is worth reposting every now and then. I should probably read it 
again every few months. :)


k


---

Keith Martin
Senior Lecturer, LCC (University of the Arts London)
Technical Editor, MacUser magazine (1997-2015)
http://PanoramaPhotographer.com
http://thatkeith.com
+44 (0)7909541365

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Re: I'm a stupid GIT

[Mike Kerner via use-livecode]

This is also why, in most cases, people kluge together a web app, instead
of attempting to build x-platform apps.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Keith Martin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 7 Jan 2017, at 21:00, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>
> The team makes _using_ LC so easy that we often forget that the
>> behind-the-scenes work is so complex almost no other company even attempts
>> to support as many platforms with this level of integrated GUI support.
>>
>
> THIS is worth reposting every now and then. I should probably read it
> again every few months. :)
>
> k
>
>
> ---
>
> Keith Martin
> Senior Lecturer, LCC (University of the Arts London)
> Technical Editor, MacUser magazine (1997-2015)
> http://PanoramaPhotographer.com
> http://thatkeith.com
> +44 (0)7909541365
>
> ---
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
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> subscription preferences:
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>



-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Re: I'm a stupid GIT

[Keith Martin via use-livecode]

On 7 Jan 2017, at 21:00, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

The team makes _using_ LC so easy that we often forget that the 
behind-the-scenes work is so complex almost no other company even 
attempts to support as many platforms with this level of integrated 
GUI support.


THIS is worth reposting every now and then. I should probably read it 
again every few months. :)


k


---

Keith Martin
Senior Lecturer, LCC (University of the Arts London)
Technical Editor, MacUser magazine (1997-2015)
http://PanoramaPhotographer.com
http://thatkeith.com
+44 (0)7909541365

---
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Re: I'm a stupid GIT

[Monte Goulding via use-livecode]

> On 8 Jan 2017, at 8:00 am, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Malte Brill wrote:
> 
> > I also am a stupid GIT. Way over my head.

It isn’t you know. Everything you need is linked from the README here 
https://github.com/livecode/livecode . 
The only platform that is complicated to build is Windows and that’s largely 
because we need to use very old tooling to support Windows XP.

> That said - can’t this be
> > somehow automated so that one could download nightly builds?
> 
> While nightly builds can be a good practice for many projects, LC is 
> unusually complex, and requires a LOT of time to run their build system.

We do nightly builds and the occasional manually triggered build. We use them 
to manually confirm our bug fixes worked as we intended. I believe we have an 
unadvertised service for a fee to access these internal builds so if you need 
that then it’s worth asking.
> 
> This multiplies the time so much that I would imagine it would take many 
> hours to build a release.

Last I checked it takes about an hour and a half to build all platforms and 
installers etc.

Our process is:

- all patches are built and automated tests are run on the free CI server 
Travis for 64 bit Linux and OS X
- if that passes then someone manually reviews the patch and others might chime 
in with comments
- If it is reviewed OK then we have a bot that polls the github api to check 
for reviewed patches and build against all platforms just to check it builds OK
- If that passes then the patch is merged and the nightly build that includes 
it will be installed to check it so it can be closed on bugzilla.
- The nightly becomes a release once everything we want in has been checked

Cheers

Monte
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Re: I'm a stupid GIT

[Roger Eller via use-livecode]

On Jan 7, 2017 4:01 PM, "Richard Gaskin via use-livecode" <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> Malte Brill wrote:
>
> > I also am a stupid GIT. Way over my head. That said - can’t this be
> > somehow automated so that one could download nightly builds?
>
> While nightly builds can be a good practice for many projects, LC is
unusually complex, and requires a LOT of time to run their build system.

Would it take longer than, um... a night?

> So while most apps only need a single build for one or two platforms, LC
needs to run multiple steps across a much larger number of platforms.

I am a huge fan of automation.  I own a robotic lawnmower.  The robot takes
2 to 3 hours to cut my lawn, which I used to cut manually using a push
mower.  I don't care how much longer the robot "works" in the summer heat
because I stay inside.

> This multiplies the time so much that I would imagine it would take many
hours to build a release, making it impractical to run daily.

If it's automated, you don't run it.  It just runs.  If it fails, so what!
It provides a bleeding edge version for those who can handle some risk.

>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

~Roger
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Re: I'm a stupid GIT

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Malte Brill wrote:

> I also am a stupid GIT. Way over my head. That said - can’t this be
> somehow automated so that one could download nightly builds?

While nightly builds can be a good practice for many projects, LC is 
unusually complex, and requires a LOT of time to run their build system.


In addition to compiling for desktop for Mac, Windows, and Linux, they 
also need to compile deployment engines for iOS and Android, and Server 
engines for Mac, Windows, and Linux.  All but the Server engines then 
need to be copied into each deliverable so we can deploy to all the 
platforms we enjoy with LC, and those then need to go through the tool 
that builds the installers.


So while most apps only need a single build for one or two platforms, LC 
needs to run multiple steps across a much larger number of platforms.


This multiplies the time so much that I would imagine it would take many 
hours to build a release, making it impractical to run daily.


The team makes _using_ LC so easy that we often forget that the 
behind-the-scenes work is so complex almost no other company even 
attempts to support as many platforms with this level of integrated GUI 
support.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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I'm a stupid GIT

[Malte Brill via use-livecode]

I also am a stupid GIT. Way over my head. That said - can’t this be somehow 
automated so that one could download nightly builds? If it could I would be 
willing to throw in a couple of Euros to make that happen (to be honest, not 
before the end of April though and most likely not enough Euros to make it 
happen alone).

Cheers,

Malte

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Re: I'm a stupid GIT

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Thank you.

On 1/7/17 7:13 pm, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

Richmond Mathewson wrote:

> How about an impatient chap whose GANTT chart of his 4th SDLC has
> been completely thrown out of kilter owing to a bug (19045) in
> existing builds of LiveCode, knowing that that bug has been sorted
> out but that the next official RC build is waiting on at least
> another 4 bugs being sorted out . . .
>
> Am I daft to want to try to build an unofficial "8.1.2 and a half" to
> see if the bug has really been sorted out, or would I be more
> sensible to "bite down hard" and hang on for an official build?

I guess that would depend on how comfortable you are in setting up the 
environment need to run the make file.


I've not done it myself so I can't advise; maybe Mark Wieder or one of 
the core team folks can offer guidance if you get stuck.


I should probably get around to setting that up myself sometime, but 
I'm a scripter at heart and do primarily UX/UI by trade, so it's been 
a low priority for me.  And with the turnaround time the team's been 
doing lately, just about every time I think I may want to set that up 
a new build is available so I haven't needed to.


I very much appreciate that the team often includes a link to the 
Github pull request in the Bugzilla report it relates to, such as this 
one Mark Waddingham included for #19045:


https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/5020

I've found that reading the comments at those links can help me better 
understand the scope of a change.


And when I see the Vulcan (automated test system) report "pass" I feel 
pretty confident it's gone well, such as we see there in a comment 
from two days ago:


  livecode-vulcan commented 2 days ago
:sunglasses: test success 5deb2cd
try-community-linux-x86: success
try-community-mac: success
try-community-linux-x86_64: success
try-community-emscripten: success
try-community-ios: success
try-community-win-x86: success
try-community-android-armv6: success

I also saw that and was impressed at the speed with which the team 
sorted things out; that is why I am "slavering at the chops".


Richmond.
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Re: I'm a stupid GIT

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Richmond Mathewson wrote:

> How about an impatient chap whose GANTT chart of his 4th SDLC has
> been completely thrown out of kilter owing to a bug (19045) in
> existing builds of LiveCode, knowing that that bug has been sorted
> out but that the next official RC build is waiting on at least
> another 4 bugs being sorted out . . .
>
> Am I daft to want to try to build an unofficial "8.1.2 and a half" to
> see if the bug has really been sorted out, or would I be more
> sensible to "bite down hard" and hang on for an official build?

I guess that would depend on how comfortable you are in setting up the 
environment need to run the make file.


I've not done it myself so I can't advise; maybe Mark Wieder or one of 
the core team folks can offer guidance if you get stuck.


I should probably get around to setting that up myself sometime, but I'm 
a scripter at heart and do primarily UX/UI by trade, so it's been a low 
priority for me.  And with the turnaround time the team's been doing 
lately, just about every time I think I may want to set that up a new 
build is available so I haven't needed to.


I very much appreciate that the team often includes a link to the Github 
pull request in the Bugzilla report it relates to, such as this one Mark 
Waddingham included for #19045:


https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/5020

I've found that reading the comments at those links can help me better 
understand the scope of a change.


And when I see the Vulcan (automated test system) report "pass" I feel 
pretty confident it's gone well, such as we see there in a comment from 
two days ago:


  livecode-vulcan commented 2 days ago
:sunglasses: test success 5deb2cd
try-community-linux-x86: success
try-community-mac: success
try-community-linux-x86_64: success
try-community-emscripten: success
try-community-ios: success
try-community-win-x86: success
try-community-android-armv6: success

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: I'm a stupid GIT

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Um, a broad "thang" . . . I've never measured one myself.

How about an impatient chap whose GANTT chart of his 4th SDLC has been 
completely thrown out of
kilter owing to a bug (19045) in existing builds of LiveCode, knowing 
that that bug has been sorted
out but that the next official RC build is waiting on at least another 4 
bugs being sorted out . . .


Am I daft to want to try to build an unofficial "8.1.2 and a half" to 
see if the bug has really been sorted
out, or would I be more sensible to "bite down hard" and hang on for an 
official build?


IFF I know that everything with respect to that bug has been sorted out 
I can continue coding (I have about
2000 lines to get  in place prior to a build); if it has not I don't 
really feel inclined to go ahead with those lines

of code to find that I have to re-do or undo them all over again.

Probably discretion is the better part of valour . . . but . . .

Richmond.

On 1/7/17 5:23 pm, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

Richmond Mathewson wrote:

> I would be extremely grateful if someone in the know could post
> a recipe for simple souls like myself to build a LiveCode "thang" from
> github.

"Thang" is very broad.  Stack?  External?  Engine?  What do you want 
to build?




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Re: I'm a stupid GIT

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Richmond Mathewson wrote:

> I would be extremely grateful if someone in the know could post
> a recipe for simple souls like myself to build a LiveCode "thang" from
> github.

"Thang" is very broad.  Stack?  External?  Engine?  What do you want to 
build?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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I'm a stupid GIT

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

I would be extremely grateful if someone in the know could post
a recipe for simple souls like myself to build a LiveCode "thang" from
github.

Richmond.
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