Re: Reviving CD-ROM material [was: Re: Livecode and interactive video]

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

I, also have no objection to copyright laws: indeed, they are there to
protect us from people pinching our work.

The things I object to are as follows:

1. The concept behind copyright is to make sure the copyright holder
profits from their work.

1.1. If the copyright holder is not making further efforts to profit from
their work (by either further attempts at marketing and/or
repackaging their work), should the possibility not be there for someone
else to either:

1.1.1. Offer a profit-sharing arrangement to the copyright holder for some
sort of repackaging of their work.

1.1.2. Offer a not-for-profit version of repackaged work.

2. The length of time that copyright lasts for is far, far too long for
software as the rate of computer system development
and change makes that software unusable remarkably quickly.

I am well aware that copyright is very complicated and my answer to the
original question was based on 3 ideas:

1. My #1.1.2. above.

2. That mimicking the functionality of software is not, in itself, a
serious sin (c.f. Open Source Office suites that mimic
the functionality of Microsoft Office).

3. ReactOS

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 5:28 PM Graham Samuel via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> As the one who started this thread, I just wanted to say I agree
> wholeheartedly with Richard in his attitude to copyright works. My own
> problem arose (long ago) when in Richard’s words, I tried to reach the
> creator (strictly speaking the copyright owner, as the work includes
> copyright material from different sources, collected and licensed by the
> publisher of the CD-ROM which I wanted to revive for new media). I  made
> the mistake of mentioning copyright in my first attempt to communicate, and
> got a boilerplate reply which didn’t cover my case. I made quite big
> efforts to find an individual to correspond with, but failed. So, if I do
> the job now, it will be as a hobbyist and it will come under the “private
> study” rules, I suppose.
>
> As an aside (OK, pretty OT), the history of copyright protection is quite
> fascinating. At one time, the USA was a major defaulter (see for example
> https://www.alcs.co.uk/news/charles-dickens-copyright-pioneer)
>
> Another area of interest, which if it weren’t so OT, I’d like to hear
> Richard’s views on, is the ongoing battle between the VPN-using community
> and the increasing number of streaming services. I guess most people here
> know what I’m talking about.
>
> Graham
>
> > On 24 Jan 2022, at 01:24, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Thank you for the mention, Jeff. Without your adding that here I would
> have missed Richmond's reference; he's among a small number of members I
> generally don't read anymore (so much to learn, so little signal in a noisy
> world...)
> >
> > FWIW I agree with what you wrote, and felt it was important enough to
> quote it in whole below. Thank you for taking the time to write that.
> >
> >
> > Richmond's original comment about me was:
> > > Richard Gaskin will probably now come after me with the castrating
> > > irons.?
> >
> > How you arrive at your legal and ethical choices is entirely up to you.
> Unless it involves my work it doesn't affect me. Knock yourself out.
> >
> >
> > For the other readers here, I don't mind sharing a personal opinion on
> copyright law:
> >
> >
> > There are some details of US copyright statutes I don't much care for,
> particularly the control one giant American corporation has held over US
> copyright expiration ("Steamboat Willy", I'm looking at you).
> >
> > But overall I not only do my best to conform to US and applicable
> international copyright law per the terms of the contracts I sign, I
> wholeheartedly celebrate it.
> >
> > IMO the Berne Convention, which lies at the heart of most copyright law
> among signatory nations, exemplifies a profound wisdom we all benefit from,
> esp the readers here, since most of us earn our living from intellectual
> property.
> >
> > It holds that at the very moment of the creation of any original
> creative work, the creator of that work has sole authority over it.
> >
> > Let that sink in. Savor it. It's wonderfully delicious.
> >
> > It recognizes that creative effort is a uniquely valuable human
> activity, and maintains as a matter of international legal guidance the
> sanctity of the act of creation.
> >
> > Man, if nations could agree on anything else so beautifully principled
> our Spaceship Earth might be a paradise. :)
> >
> > I love it so much that when I come across old works I'm interested in
> that appear to be abandoned, I try to reach the creator or current rights
> holder to see what can be done to re-use it.
> >
> > It's the least I can do. If I am to embrace the excitingly bold spirit
> of the Berne Convention, I'm obliged to not only enjoy its fruits but to
> also honor its responsibilities.
> >
> > It is not for me to assume control of any other creator's 

Re: Reviving CD-ROM material [was: Re: Livecode and interactive video]

[Graham Samuel via use-livecode]

As the one who started this thread, I just wanted to say I agree wholeheartedly 
with Richard in his attitude to copyright works. My own problem arose (long 
ago) when in Richard’s words, I tried to reach the creator (strictly speaking 
the copyright owner, as the work includes copyright material from different 
sources, collected and licensed by the publisher of the CD-ROM which I wanted 
to revive for new media). I  made the mistake of mentioning copyright in my 
first attempt to communicate, and got a boilerplate reply which didn’t cover my 
case. I made quite big efforts to find an individual to correspond with, but 
failed. So, if I do the job now, it will be as a hobbyist and it will come 
under the “private study” rules, I suppose.

As an aside (OK, pretty OT), the history of copyright protection is quite 
fascinating. At one time, the USA was a major defaulter (see for example 
https://www.alcs.co.uk/news/charles-dickens-copyright-pioneer)

Another area of interest, which if it weren’t so OT, I’d like to hear Richard’s 
views on, is the ongoing battle between the VPN-using community and the 
increasing number of streaming services. I guess most people here know what I’m 
talking about.

Graham

> On 24 Jan 2022, at 01:24, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Thank you for the mention, Jeff. Without your adding that here I would have 
> missed Richmond's reference; he's among a small number of members I generally 
> don't read anymore (so much to learn, so little signal in a noisy world...)
> 
> FWIW I agree with what you wrote, and felt it was important enough to quote 
> it in whole below. Thank you for taking the time to write that.
> 
> 
> Richmond's original comment about me was:
> > Richard Gaskin will probably now come after me with the castrating
> > irons.?
> 
> How you arrive at your legal and ethical choices is entirely up to you. 
> Unless it involves my work it doesn't affect me. Knock yourself out.
> 
> 
> For the other readers here, I don't mind sharing a personal opinion on 
> copyright law:
> 
> 
> There are some details of US copyright statutes I don't much care for, 
> particularly the control one giant American corporation has held over US 
> copyright expiration ("Steamboat Willy", I'm looking at you).
> 
> But overall I not only do my best to conform to US and applicable 
> international copyright law per the terms of the contracts I sign, I 
> wholeheartedly celebrate it.
> 
> IMO the Berne Convention, which lies at the heart of most copyright law among 
> signatory nations, exemplifies a profound wisdom we all benefit from, esp the 
> readers here, since most of us earn our living from intellectual property.
> 
> It holds that at the very moment of the creation of any original creative 
> work, the creator of that work has sole authority over it.
> 
> Let that sink in. Savor it. It's wonderfully delicious.
> 
> It recognizes that creative effort is a uniquely valuable human activity, and 
> maintains as a matter of international legal guidance the sanctity of the act 
> of creation.
> 
> Man, if nations could agree on anything else so beautifully principled our 
> Spaceship Earth might be a paradise. :)
> 
> I love it so much that when I come across old works I'm interested in that 
> appear to be abandoned, I try to reach the creator or current rights holder 
> to see what can be done to re-use it.
> 
> It's the least I can do. If I am to embrace the excitingly bold spirit of the 
> Berne Convention, I'm obliged to not only enjoy its fruits but to also honor 
> its responsibilities.
> 
> It is not for me to assume control of any other creator's work.
> 
> In honoring copyright, I'm creating of a world where copyright is honored.
> 
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> 
> 
> 
> Jeff Reynolds wrote:
> 
>> Richmond,
>> And I’ll be right there with Richard.
>> Just because it’s not being supported does not remove copyrights. You know 
>> that’s a stupid argument. Maybe fine with your own morals but it’s not how 
>> copyright works. As a content creator for over 4 decades of my professional 
>> life I really hate that attitude of self justification. Fine for your own 
>> use but if you want to redistribute it then get the rights. Not for profit 
>> label has nothing to do with the rights involved.
>> I have experience working in and with media companies and licensing others’ 
>> materials and having others licensing ours. We were told all the time by 
>> management and legal to not respond to requests to license unless management 
>> was interested in the proposal and they would handle that. I thought it 
>> pretty strange that a denial letter could cause any issues and may have just 
>> been paranoia or don’t waste your time but those were the instructions. 
>> Getting an odd bob out out of relicensing an old project involves figuring 
>> out who you are getting in bed with and if you even want to get into bed 
>> with them in the first place, time to come 

Re: Reviving CD-ROM material [was: Re: Livecode and interactive video]

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Thank you, Richsrd Gaskin.

On Mon, 24 Jan 2022, 03:26 Richard Gaskin via use-livecode, <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Thank you for the mention, Jeff. Without your adding that here I would
> have missed Richmond's reference; he's among a small number of members I
> generally don't read anymore (so much to learn, so little signal in a
> noisy world...)
>
> FWIW I agree with what you wrote, and felt it was important enough to
> quote it in whole below. Thank you for taking the time to write that.
>
>
> Richmond's original comment about me was:
>  > Richard Gaskin will probably now come after me with the castrating
>  > irons.?
>
> How you arrive at your legal and ethical choices is entirely up to you.
> Unless it involves my work it doesn't affect me. Knock yourself out.
>
>
> For the other readers here, I don't mind sharing a personal opinion on
> copyright law:
>
>
> There are some details of US copyright statutes I don't much care for,
> particularly the control one giant American corporation has held over US
> copyright expiration ("Steamboat Willy", I'm looking at you).
>
> But overall I not only do my best to conform to US and applicable
> international copyright law per the terms of the contracts I sign, I
> wholeheartedly celebrate it.
>
> IMO the Berne Convention, which lies at the heart of most copyright law
> among signatory nations, exemplifies a profound wisdom we all benefit
> from, esp the readers here, since most of us earn our living from
> intellectual property.
>
> It holds that at the very moment of the creation of any original
> creative work, the creator of that work has sole authority over it.
>
> Let that sink in. Savor it. It's wonderfully delicious.
>
> It recognizes that creative effort is a uniquely valuable human
> activity, and maintains as a matter of international legal guidance the
> sanctity of the act of creation.
>
> Man, if nations could agree on anything else so beautifully principled
> our Spaceship Earth might be a paradise. :)
>
> I love it so much that when I come across old works I'm interested in
> that appear to be abandoned, I try to reach the creator or current
> rights holder to see what can be done to re-use it.
>
> It's the least I can do. If I am to embrace the excitingly bold spirit
> of the Berne Convention, I'm obliged to not only enjoy its fruits but to
> also honor its responsibilities.
>
> It is not for me to assume control of any other creator's work.
>
> In honoring copyright, I'm creating of a world where copyright is honored.
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>
>
>
> Jeff Reynolds wrote:
>
> > Richmond,
> >
> > And I’ll be right there with Richard.
> >
> > Just because it’s not being supported does not remove copyrights. You
> know that’s a stupid argument. Maybe fine with your own morals but it’s not
> how copyright works. As a content creator for over 4 decades of my
> professional life I really hate that attitude of self justification. Fine
> for your own use but if you want to redistribute it then get the rights.
> Not for profit label has nothing to do with the rights involved.
> >
> > I have experience working in and with media companies and licensing
> others’ materials and having others licensing ours. We were told all the
> time by management and legal to not respond to requests to license unless
> management was interested in the proposal and they would handle that. I
> thought it pretty strange that a denial letter could cause any issues and
> may have just been paranoia or don’t waste your time but those were the
> instructions.
> >
> > Getting an odd bob out out of relicensing an old project involves
> figuring out who you are getting in bed with and if you even want to get
> into bed with them in the first place, time to come to an agreement,
> research out the original projects licensing (media projects are rife with
> licensed media that at times are not transferable or require additional
> permission and/or payments), create and agree on a contract, deliver the
> goods, then make sure everything is being done as contracted. That’s not
> simple and all the steps cost time and money and usually folks are not
> willing to pay much for the rights to cover these costs, let alone a profit.
> >
> > I’ve done this process a couple of times with old projects and it was
> way more work than I thought it would be and that was with a very good
> relationship with the rights holder (I built the original product for them)
> and in good rights situations. One was easy and owner was happy with a
> handshake on the deal until I had a product to sell and then we would pen a
> contract. I totally trusted him he would honor the handshake (and I’m still
> absolutely sure he would have, very good chap), but a year and a half later
> he ended up having to sell the rights, so our handshake of course was no
> longer good. He was transparent about all this and I just did the hand
> shake as it would have been a good chunk of 

Re: Reviving CD-ROM material [was: Re: Livecode and interactive video]

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Thank you for the mention, Jeff. Without your adding that here I would 
have missed Richmond's reference; he's among a small number of members I 
generally don't read anymore (so much to learn, so little signal in a 
noisy world...)


FWIW I agree with what you wrote, and felt it was important enough to 
quote it in whole below. Thank you for taking the time to write that.



Richmond's original comment about me was:
> Richard Gaskin will probably now come after me with the castrating
> irons.?

How you arrive at your legal and ethical choices is entirely up to you. 
Unless it involves my work it doesn't affect me. Knock yourself out.



For the other readers here, I don't mind sharing a personal opinion on 
copyright law:



There are some details of US copyright statutes I don't much care for, 
particularly the control one giant American corporation has held over US 
copyright expiration ("Steamboat Willy", I'm looking at you).


But overall I not only do my best to conform to US and applicable 
international copyright law per the terms of the contracts I sign, I 
wholeheartedly celebrate it.


IMO the Berne Convention, which lies at the heart of most copyright law 
among signatory nations, exemplifies a profound wisdom we all benefit 
from, esp the readers here, since most of us earn our living from 
intellectual property.


It holds that at the very moment of the creation of any original 
creative work, the creator of that work has sole authority over it.


Let that sink in. Savor it. It's wonderfully delicious.

It recognizes that creative effort is a uniquely valuable human 
activity, and maintains as a matter of international legal guidance the 
sanctity of the act of creation.


Man, if nations could agree on anything else so beautifully principled 
our Spaceship Earth might be a paradise. :)


I love it so much that when I come across old works I'm interested in 
that appear to be abandoned, I try to reach the creator or current 
rights holder to see what can be done to re-use it.


It's the least I can do. If I am to embrace the excitingly bold spirit 
of the Berne Convention, I'm obliged to not only enjoy its fruits but to 
also honor its responsibilities.


It is not for me to assume control of any other creator's work.

In honoring copyright, I'm creating of a world where copyright is honored.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems



Jeff Reynolds wrote:


Richmond,

And I’ll be right there with Richard.

Just because it’s not being supported does not remove copyrights. You know 
that’s a stupid argument. Maybe fine with your own morals but it’s not how 
copyright works. As a content creator for over 4 decades of my professional 
life I really hate that attitude of self justification. Fine for your own use 
but if you want to redistribute it then get the rights. Not for profit label 
has nothing to do with the rights involved.

I have experience working in and with media companies and licensing others’ materials and having others licensing ours. We were told all the time by management and legal to not respond to requests to license unless management was interested in the proposal and they would handle that. I thought it pretty strange that a denial letter could cause any issues and may have just been paranoia or don’t waste your time but those were the instructions. 


Getting an odd bob out out of relicensing an old project involves figuring out 
who you are getting in bed with and if you even want to get into bed with them 
in the first place, time to come to an agreement, research out the original 
projects licensing (media projects are rife with licensed media that at times 
are not transferable or require additional permission and/or payments), create 
and agree on a contract, deliver the goods, then make sure everything is being 
done as contracted. That’s not simple and all the steps cost time and money and 
usually folks are not willing to pay much for the rights to cover these costs, 
let alone a profit.

I’ve done this process a couple of times with old projects and it was way more 
work than I thought it would be and that was with a very good relationship with 
the rights holder (I built the original product for them) and in good rights 
situations. One was easy and owner was happy with a handshake on the deal until 
I had a product to sell and then we would pen a contract. I totally trusted him 
he would honor the handshake (and I’m still absolutely sure he would have, very 
good chap), but a year and a half later he ended up having to sell the rights, 
so our handshake of course was no longer good. He was transparent about all 
this and I just did the hand shake as it would have been a good chunk of change 
with lawyer to pen the rights contract and I didn’t have a publisher onboard 
yet. So even in the best of situations things can go sideways on these kinds of 
things and life is not as simple as you think it is Richmond.

I was approached by an old employer about 

Re: Reviving CD-ROM material [was: Re: Livecode and interactive video]

[Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode]

Richmond,

And I’ll be right there with Richard.

Just because it’s not being supported does not remove copyrights. You know 
that’s a stupid argument. Maybe fine with your own morals but it’s not how 
copyright works. As a content creator for over 4 decades of my professional 
life I really hate that attitude of self justification. Fine for your own use 
but if you want to redistribute it then get the rights. Not for profit label 
has nothing to do with the rights involved.

I have experience working in and with media companies and licensing others’ 
materials and having others licensing ours. We were told all the time by 
management and legal to not respond to requests to license unless management 
was interested in the proposal and they would handle that. I thought it pretty 
strange that a denial letter could cause any issues and may have just been 
paranoia or don’t waste your time but those were the instructions. 

Getting an odd bob out out of relicensing an old project involves figuring out 
who you are getting in bed with and if you even want to get into bed with them 
in the first place, time to come to an agreement, research out the original 
projects licensing (media projects are rife with licensed media that at times 
are not transferable or require additional permission and/or payments), create 
and agree on a contract, deliver the goods, then make sure everything is being 
done as contracted. That’s not simple and all the steps cost time and money and 
usually folks are not willing to pay much for the rights to cover these costs, 
let alone a profit.

I’ve done this process a couple of times with old projects and it was way more 
work than I thought it would be and that was with a very good relationship with 
the rights holder (I built the original product for them) and in good rights 
situations. One was easy and owner was happy with a handshake on the deal until 
I had a product to sell and then we would pen a contract. I totally trusted him 
he would honor the handshake (and I’m still absolutely sure he would have, very 
good chap), but a year and a half later he ended up having to sell the rights, 
so our handshake of course was no longer good. He was transparent about all 
this and I just did the hand shake as it would have been a good chunk of change 
with lawyer to pen the rights contract and I didn’t have a publisher onboard 
yet. So even in the best of situations things can go sideways on these kinds of 
things and life is not as simple as you think it is Richmond.

I was approached by an old employer about resurrecting an old commercial cdrom 
project. I knew the rights had changed hands a couple of times, so my first 
question was who has the rights now and have you secured them? His response was 
well it’s abandoned and one of the publishers that were distributing the 
product to the education market (that wanted to partner with him on this deal) 
thought they could do it under their publishing agreement. Again I questioned 
did they have a full rights deal or just a publishing contract (I knew from the 
original days on the project we had very specific publishing contracts with 
different channels like Apple, media distributor and some educational 
publishers and they were rabid about retaining the work’s rights). Response was 
they feel confident they could stretch it legally. He then tried to say well we 
could construe this to be in then public domain as most paid for with 
public/private partnership money from NSF and EPA grants. I had to laugh in his 
face as they had made sure that even with this public money the company had 
complete rights to everything. I said I’d be happy to talk to him (and spend my 
own time) about it once he can put through the lawyers. He did and planning 
abruptly stopped.

The real killer usually is that media licensed in the original work was not 
contracted for sub licensing, transfer, or reuse or requires new payments. 
Sounds like something most would plan for to allow better life for their 
products, but I was amazed how many times this was not done or, at times, even 
thought of.

Sorry I’ve been around this tree too many times.

Jeff

> On Jan 23, 2022, at 12:02 PM, use-livecode-requ...@lists.runrev.com wrote:
> 
> I wrote to them twice and they never bothered to reply
> 
> they did not "essentially" ignore me: they IGNORED me. This is nonsense 
> as, presumably, there is no obvious way
> they can make the odd bob out of ancient CD-ROMS; and if they had a bit 
> of nous they might realise that they could
> climb into bed with you to mutual advantage . . .
> 
> so I would merrily chant my favourite mantra:
> 
> "abandonware, abandonware"? and make sure that anything I did with media 
> ripped off from those
> 
> CDs was splattered with disclaimers and released on a not-for-profit basis.
> 
> Richard Gaskin will probably now come after me with the castrating 
> irons.?


___
use-livecode mailing 

Re: Reviving CD-ROM material [was: Re: Livecode and interactive video]

[Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode]

Graham,

Having created a bunch of commercial interactive cdroms back in those days of 
early commercial interactivity, I can say they can be a challenge to mine all 
the necessary content from them and determine the whole flow chart of content 
and interactivity. I did this a few times on my own projects in the late days 
of cdroms and beginning of the web. It was a job to suck all the content out of 
the encyclopedia and put it into a set of meta files to get sucked into the 
online system along with providing files that detailed how it all fit together. 
An I had created the original cdrom and done it in a very template cms way. It 
took a few weeks to do and this was probably the simplest port that could ever 
be done due to the content and how I had built the original cdrom and me 
sucking it out only a few years later. And this was for the encyclopedia part 
of the disc that was pretty basic article with attached media, glossary and 
links between articles. When we looked at doing this for the very interactive 
parts (lots of kids being able to plot various data sets in various ways for 
them to both see the environmental data itself but also get into analyzing it 
by plotting various things against each other) it got swiftly daunting to 
extract and document the interactivity completely. Luckily the online education 
company determined it was past what was feasible to do online at the time so 
they let that part drop. 

I had the same experience extracting very interactive exhibits from dual 
laserdisc systems (in the day the only way to get seamless interactive video 
was to have two laserdiscs and switch between the two and carefully place your 
videos on the two discs) to QuickTime and it was a big job to again extract all 
the content (mostly videos) and document the interactivity. Again I had built 
the original and was pretty good about file keeping and documentation. Again 
doable but it was a good pile of work for me and I knew it well having built it.

I’ve looked at migrating some of the educational cdroms we did a decade or so 
ago that went along with beginning reader story books, but the amount of work, 
even though done in revolution was just a bit too much for any return it would 
give other than just doing it. I may still do it some day as the rights owner 
would probably be fine with it as a freeware presentation online.

Suffice it to say it is possible, just how hard it will be to extract the 
content from the disc you have is a very hard question to answer. Livecode is 
so much more powerful today that it’s not a question of programming, it’s 
getting all the interaction figured out and content out of the system. I can 
tell you with that huge encyclopedia project (it was $2.7M project in mid 90s) 
the Mac and PC versions were programmed separately (cross platform systems were 
not quite there yet for the project) with Mac in HyperCard and pc in Visual 
Basic. I wrote the Mac version and made HyperCard a shell that was a cms system 
that would just pull in and article text file and it had a related data file 
that called out all the links, attached media, and such, so the content is all 
sitting there in folders that are easy to access and with a little sleuthing 
you could figure out the data structure probably. But much of the interface 
graphics and interaction on controls were all buried in HyperCard (mostly as 
resources). On the PC side they had two hard core Visual Basic programmers that 
attacked the problem like it was some moon launch (they spent 5x more even 
though behind the Mac version on production as were handed totally clean and 
debugged content from the Mac version to suck in, yet they still had 4x more 
bug sheets than the Mac version, go figure). They had all the data in a big 
access database that got very cumbersome as it went along. They tried to make 
access do too much and it ended up being a real issue and they almost went to 
coding their own database. But all the interface graphics were just a folder of 
files put together then in vb. So on the pc version the content would be 
totally inaccessible (yes that’s a pun we used a lot around access), but on the 
Mac side totally accessible as easily used rtf files.

We had about 5 hardcore programmers at the media company and I know each 
project many times got build in very different ways due to differences in needs 
and the evolving tools. I know I would be hard pressed to crack open their 
projects and extract everything not having been part of building it or the tool 
potentially to try to get in through an editor.

In the last couple of decades every few years one of the owners (or subsequent 
owner) of old cdroms I developed has approached me with the idea or 
resurrecting them in a new fashion. I’ve run the numbers and tried to assess 
how hard it will be and even doing this at educational rates (bottom of the pay 
tier, but that’s been a lot of my professional life) it just hasn’t  panned out 
as 

Re: Reviving CD-ROM material [was: Re: Livecode and interactive video]

[Eraklis Pittas via use-livecode]

CD ROM? Luxury! - We used to store all our data on clay tablets and stored
them  in holes in the ground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue7wM0QC5LE

On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 at 12:59, Graham Samuel via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I know I’m old enough to be the father of the average LiveCoder, and maybe
> the grandfather of quite a few, so I clearly remember CD-ROMs. I had a
> favourite cross-platform one which contains some very attractive material,
> and I have often thought of reviving the contents using either an LC
> standalone, or (as is presumably now possible), an LC-generated web app.
> Sadly I have never been able to have a sensible conversation with the
> copyright owner (they’ve essentially ignored me), so this would begin as a
> private project. I’m still wondering what the best technical approach
> should be. The material includes videos (not interactive) and synchronised
> text and audio files. After thinking about it for years, I still think it
> would be fun to do.
>
> Has anyone any ideas about how to approach this conversion (or
> re-purposing, or whatever term you want to use)?
>
> Graham
>
> > On 21 Jan 2022, at 19:56, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > A quarter of a century ago, we called this Interactive Multimedia.
> > It was usually delivered on a CD-ROM.   Ask your parents! ;)
> >
> > __
>
>
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Re: Reviving CD-ROM material [was: Re: Livecode and interactive video]

[Colin Holgate via use-livecode]

Between Feb 1992 when I moved to the US, and May 1995, most of the floppy disks 
and CD-ROMs I programmed were done in HyperCard. Any of those would be easy 
enough to hack. I had been doing the Mac version, and other companies would do 
the PC version. From May 1995, being cross platform right away was more 
important, and so I started using Macromedia Director. For those CD-ROM I would 
either keep the document files in their editable format, or I would have a 
folder on the CD that included the editable files. The way I looked at it was 
that I had thousands of backup copies of the source files. I did do 10 CD-ROMs 
using Oracle Media Objects, which was another way to make cross platform 
HyperCard like titles.

That still all predates Revolution. By the time Run Rev were sitting on top of 
MetaCard we were doing more web activities, all in Macromedia Director. Then by 
2000, three years before Run Rev acquired MetaCard, I had to start using 
Macromedia Flash for the web work. The documents Flash produced were not easily 
editable after being published.

Some day I’ll find time to recreate the HyperCard products in LiveCode!


> On Jan 23, 2022, at 7:18 AM, Richmond via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have a good dozen CD-ROMs which my boys got a lot of mileage out of when we 
> stayed in the UAE.
> 
> The first thing to do is to extract all the media - and this can be a 
> right-pain-in-the-bum as quite a lot of
> these CDs were authored using MacroMedia products where the media are 
> embedded in a way which seems
> to make them inaccessible.
> 
> After that . . .
> 
> Run up LiveCode stacks that mimic the FUNCTIONALITY of the original CDs (this 
> is surprisingly easy).
> 
> I have a horde of Dorling-Kindersley CDs that contain stuff that really rocks 
> (well, up to the point
> that media authored for a Mac Performa 5700 is of a far, far lower quality 
> and size than what is
> the norm nowadays).
> 
> I wrote to them twice and they never bothered to reply
> 
> they did not "essentially" ignore me: they IGNORED me. This is nonsense as, 
> presumably, there is no obvious way
> they can make the odd bob out of ancient CD-ROMS; and if they had a bit of 
> nous they might realise that they could
> climb into bed with you to mutual advantage . . .
> 
> so I would merrily chant my favourite mantra:
> 
> "abandonware, abandonware"  and make sure that anything I did with media 
> ripped off from those
> 
> CDs was splattered with disclaimers and released on a not-for-profit basis.
> 
> Richard Gaskin will probably now come after me with the castrating irons.  :)
> 
> Even if he doesn't, his knowledge of what-you-can and what-you-cannot get 
> away with is
> both invaluable and far, far more extensive than mine it.
> 
> On 23.01.22 14:57, Graham Samuel via use-livecode wrote:
>> I know I’m old enough to be the father of the average LiveCoder, and maybe 
>> the grandfather of quite a few, so I clearly remember CD-ROMs. I had a 
>> favourite cross-platform one which contains some very attractive material, 
>> and I have often thought of reviving the contents using either an LC 
>> standalone, or (as is presumably now possible), an LC-generated web app. 
>> Sadly I have never been able to have a sensible conversation with the 
>> copyright owner (they’ve essentially ignored me), so this would begin as a 
>> private project. I’m still wondering what the best technical approach should 
>> be. The material includes videos (not interactive) and synchronised text and 
>> audio files. After thinking about it for years, I still think it would be 
>> fun to do.
>> 
>> Has anyone any ideas about how to approach this conversion (or re-purposing, 
>> or whatever term you want to use)?
>> 
>> Graham
>> 
>>> On 21 Jan 2022, at 19:56, Jim Lambert via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> A quarter of a century ago, we called this Interactive Multimedia.
>>> It was usually delivered on a CD-ROM.   Ask your parents! ;)
>>> 
>>> __
>> 
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Re: Reviving CD-ROM material [was: Re: Livecode and interactive video]

[Richmond via use-livecode]

I have a good dozen CD-ROMs which my boys got a lot of mileage out of 
when we stayed in the UAE.


The first thing to do is to extract all the media - and this can be a 
right-pain-in-the-bum as quite a lot of
these CDs were authored using MacroMedia products where the media are 
embedded in a way which seems

to make them inaccessible.

After that . . .

Run up LiveCode stacks that mimic the FUNCTIONALITY of the original CDs 
(this is surprisingly easy).


I have a horde of Dorling-Kindersley CDs that contain stuff that really 
rocks (well, up to the point
that media authored for a Mac Performa 5700 is of a far, far lower 
quality and size than what is

the norm nowadays).

I wrote to them twice and they never bothered to reply

they did not "essentially" ignore me: they IGNORED me. This is nonsense 
as, presumably, there is no obvious way
they can make the odd bob out of ancient CD-ROMS; and if they had a bit 
of nous they might realise that they could

climb into bed with you to mutual advantage . . .

so I would merrily chant my favourite mantra:

"abandonware, abandonware"  and make sure that anything I did with media 
ripped off from those


CDs was splattered with disclaimers and released on a not-for-profit basis.

Richard Gaskin will probably now come after me with the castrating 
irons.  :)


Even if he doesn't, his knowledge of what-you-can and what-you-cannot 
get away with is

both invaluable and far, far more extensive than mine it.

On 23.01.22 14:57, Graham Samuel via use-livecode wrote:

I know I’m old enough to be the father of the average LiveCoder, and maybe the 
grandfather of quite a few, so I clearly remember CD-ROMs. I had a favourite 
cross-platform one which contains some very attractive material, and I have 
often thought of reviving the contents using either an LC standalone, or (as is 
presumably now possible), an LC-generated web app. Sadly I have never been able 
to have a sensible conversation with the copyright owner (they’ve essentially 
ignored me), so this would begin as a private project. I’m still wondering what 
the best technical approach should be. The material includes videos (not 
interactive) and synchronised text and audio files. After thinking about it for 
years, I still think it would be fun to do.

Has anyone any ideas about how to approach this conversion (or re-purposing, or 
whatever term you want to use)?

Graham


On 21 Jan 2022, at 19:56, Jim Lambert via use-livecode 
 wrote:

A quarter of a century ago, we called this Interactive Multimedia.
It was usually delivered on a CD-ROM.   Ask your parents! ;)

__


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Reviving CD-ROM material [was: Re: Livecode and interactive video]

[Graham Samuel via use-livecode]

I know I’m old enough to be the father of the average LiveCoder, and maybe the 
grandfather of quite a few, so I clearly remember CD-ROMs. I had a favourite 
cross-platform one which contains some very attractive material, and I have 
often thought of reviving the contents using either an LC standalone, or (as is 
presumably now possible), an LC-generated web app. Sadly I have never been able 
to have a sensible conversation with the copyright owner (they’ve essentially 
ignored me), so this would begin as a private project. I’m still wondering what 
the best technical approach should be. The material includes videos (not 
interactive) and synchronised text and audio files. After thinking about it for 
years, I still think it would be fun to do.

Has anyone any ideas about how to approach this conversion (or re-purposing, or 
whatever term you want to use)?

Graham

> On 21 Jan 2022, at 19:56, Jim Lambert via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> A quarter of a century ago, we called this Interactive Multimedia.
> It was usually delivered on a CD-ROM.   Ask your parents! ;)
> 
> __


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Re: Livecode and interactive video

[matthias rebbe via use-livecode]

> Am 21.01.2022 um 20:56 schrieb Jim Lambert via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> A quarter of a century ago, we called this Interactive Multimedia.
> It was usually delivered on a CD-ROM.   Ask your parents! ;)
> 
I remember the Philips CM205 cd-rom which was advertised in 1991 or so  as 
first multimedia cd-rom drive with so called cd-i support.
Btw. i've never seen a cd-i disc, but it felt good to know that my drive could  
have read such cds. ;) 




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Re: Livecode and interactive video

[jbv via use-livecode]

Le 2022-01-21 14:56, Jim Lambert via use-livecode a écrit :

A quarter of a century ago, we called this Interactive Multimedia.
It was usually delivered on a CD-ROM.   Ask your parents! ;)



he he he... I actually made quite a few myself 30 years ago...
I"m currently browsing through various existing tools that allow
to produce interactive videos, but my main goal is to automate
the process of generating them...
Most of these tools aren't cheap. A promising one seems to be
Adobe Captivate which, unless I'm wrong, offers possibilities
to hack the main file format.

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Re: Livecode and interactive video

[Jim Lambert via use-livecode]

A quarter of a century ago, we called this Interactive Multimedia.
It was usually delivered on a CD-ROM.   Ask your parents! ;)

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Re: Livecode and interactive video

[Bryan Anderson via use-livecode]

Hi jbv

Here’s a tool that can help you create what you’re describing.

https://h5p.org/interactive-video 

Best regards.

Bryan Anderson


> On Jan 21, 2022, at 1:25 PM, Rick Harrison via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I doubt that will work.  Once you have converted it into a video, it’s just a 
> video.
> You want to have a video with HTML5 button overlays.   You will probably
> have to use Javascript for jumping to the various points in the video.
> 
> Let us know what finally works for you.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Rick
> 
>> On Jan 21, 2022, at 11:02 AM, jbv via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Rick,
>> 
>> Thank you for your answer. That was actually my very first option,
>> but it remains the most simple one.
>> I am now exploring a new option : generate an HTML5 animation and
>> then convert it to a video format. I'm just wondering if hotspots
>> (mostly to offer viewers options for branching to different segments
>> of the video) will be kept after the conversion...
> 
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Livecode and interactive video

[Curt Ford via use-livecode]

I can't help with a LiveCode implementation, but if web delivery is an 
option, I've had good results using the free H5P technology for videos 
that include embedded quizzes of various kinds; I think it does image 
hotspots and branching as well.


https://h5p.org

-Curt
--
Sent from Postbox 


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Re: Livecode and interactive video

[Rick Harrison via use-livecode]

I doubt that will work.  Once you have converted it into a video, it’s just a 
video.
You want to have a video with HTML5 button overlays.   You will probably
have to use Javascript for jumping to the various points in the video.

Let us know what finally works for you.

Cheers,

Rick

> On Jan 21, 2022, at 11:02 AM, jbv via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Rick,
> 
> Thank you for your answer. That was actually my very first option,
> but it remains the most simple one.
> I am now exploring a new option : generate an HTML5 animation and
> then convert it to a video format. I'm just wondering if hotspots
> (mostly to offer viewers options for branching to different segments
> of the video) will be kept after the conversion...

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Re: Livecode and interactive video

[jbv via use-livecode]

Hi Rick,

Thank you for your answer. That was actually my very first option,
but it remains the most simple one.
I am now exploring a new option : generate an HTML5 animation and
then convert it to a video format. I'm just wondering if hotspots
(mostly to offer viewers options for branching to different segments
of the video) will be kept after the conversion...


Le 2022-01-20 15:45, Rick Harrison via use-livecode a écrit :

You could probably do it on your own website with LiveCode server.

It would not work with YouTube though.

You might however be able to publish an optional link to
your interactive video on YouTube just below a video
you have posted.

You could say something like:  To try the interactive
version of this video, please click on the link below.

Good Luck!

Rick

On Jan 20, 2022, at 6:49 AM, jbv via use-livecode 
 wrote:


Hi list,
This might be a dumb question but anyway...
Imagine a simple quiz made of a succession of static slides, each 
slide featuring a question and 4 possible answers.
When the user clicks 1 answer, he gets notified if he's right or 
wrong, then a comment about the right answer is displayed, and then 
the user clicks to move to the next question.
At the end, a final screen shows the score and some additional 
comments.


This is easily done with LC. But is there a way to export such an app 
from LC into a format compatible with an interactive video for youtube 
for instance ?


Thanks in advance.
jbv

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Re: Livecode and interactive video

[Rick Harrison via use-livecode]

You could probably do it on your own website with LiveCode server.

It would not work with YouTube though.

You might however be able to publish an optional link to
your interactive video on YouTube just below a video
you have posted.

You could say something like:  To try the interactive
version of this video, please click on the link below.

Good Luck!

Rick

> On Jan 20, 2022, at 6:49 AM, jbv via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi list,
> This might be a dumb question but anyway...
> Imagine a simple quiz made of a succession of static slides, each slide 
> featuring a question and 4 possible answers.
> When the user clicks 1 answer, he gets notified if he's right or wrong, then 
> a comment about the right answer is displayed, and then the user clicks to 
> move to the next question.
> At the end, a final screen shows the score and some additional comments.
> 
> This is easily done with LC. But is there a way to export such an app from LC 
> into a format compatible with an interactive video for youtube for instance ?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> jbv
> 
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Re: Livecode and interactive video

[Mark Smith via use-livecode]

Boy that video was a perfect example of giving away free information in order 
to highlight your brand. Very well done. I think in general you could probably 
do something like this in HTML5 and the new web browser technology (caveat: 
which I have not looked into yet but sounds like it might fit the bill). 

> On Jan 20, 2022, at 6:53 PM, jbv via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Le 2022-01-20 13:39, Tom Glod via use-livecode a écrit :
>> Hi there . can you give an example of an interactive video on youtube?
>> so I can see what you mean? I've never seen one.
> 
> Please check this video : it explains the basics of interactive videos,
> although I don't know if it's accepted on youtive :
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkGI4OHSjA0
> 
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Re: Livecode and interactive video

[jbv via use-livecode]

Le 2022-01-20 13:39, Tom Glod via use-livecode a écrit :
Hi there . can you give an example of an interactive video on 
youtube?

so I can see what you mean? I've never seen one.



Please check this video : it explains the basics of interactive videos,
although I don't know if it's accepted on youtive :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkGI4OHSjA0

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Re: Livecode and interactive video

[Tom Glod via use-livecode]

Hi there . can you give an example of an interactive video on youtube?
so I can see what you mean? I've never seen one.

Thanks,

Tom

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 6:51 AM jbv via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi list,
> This might be a dumb question but anyway...
> Imagine a simple quiz made of a succession of static slides, each slide
> featuring a question and 4 possible answers.
> When the user clicks 1 answer, he gets notified if he's right or wrong,
> then a comment about the right answer is displayed, and then the user
> clicks to move to the next question.
> At the end, a final screen shows the score and some additional comments.
>
> This is easily done with LC. But is there a way to export such an app
> from LC into a format compatible with an interactive video for youtube
> for instance ?
>
> Thanks in advance.
> jbv
>
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Livecode and interactive video

[jbv via use-livecode]

Hi list,
This might be a dumb question but anyway...
Imagine a simple quiz made of a succession of static slides, each slide 
featuring a question and 4 possible answers.
When the user clicks 1 answer, he gets notified if he's right or wrong, 
then a comment about the right answer is displayed, and then the user 
clicks to move to the next question.

At the end, a final screen shows the score and some additional comments.

This is easily done with LC. But is there a way to export such an app 
from LC into a format compatible with an interactive video for youtube 
for instance ?


Thanks in advance.
jbv

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