Re: Considering work with livecode server

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

certain inalienable rights… Ahhh. I love cheese.

Bob S


On Jan 24, 2021, at 9:26 AM, Mark Smith via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

Thanks for weighing in on this issue Kee. I realize Apple grants unto itself 
certain inalienable rights that are not always (in my opinion) wise, or 
justified (ie. they are open to all sorts of corporate bias and malfeasance) 
but as you say, “them’s the rules” and if you want to play in their sandbox you 
had better abide by them. I presume there is some semblance of common sense at 
Apple, at least I hope so :)

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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[Mark Smith via use-livecode]

Thanks for weighing in on this issue Kee. I realize Apple grants unto itself 
certain inalienable rights that are not always (in my opinion) wise, or 
justified (ie. they are open to all sorts of corporate bias and malfeasance) 
but as you say, “them’s the rules” and if you want to play in their sandbox you 
had better abide by them. I presume there is some semblance of common sense at 
Apple, at least I hope so :)

Mark

> On Jan 24, 2021, at 3:14 PM, kee nethery via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 20, 2021, at 4:20 AM, Mark Smith via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks Kee, but I am a bit puzzled by the restriction.
>> 
>> That would require complicity from the businesses, which if reputable would 
>> be a stretch, no?
> 
> There is a significantly large number of certified developers. I personally 
> have three developer accounts for three separate efforts. If I was willing, I 
> could risk burning one of those accounts. Not that I’m going to do so, just 
> saying, yes, the business amd the developer would have to be in on it. 
> 
>> For example, if I had an app that linked to course selections on University 
>> websites, are they going to suggest that these could be portals to pedophile 
>> shopping sites by entering a secret pass phrase? By the sounds of it, please 
>> correct me if I am wrong, no iStore app can link to a website for content 
>> regardless of the status of the organization that stands behind the site? 
>> H, I still have a lot to learn in this space. 
> 
> Just saying that you need to really read the published rules and follow them. 
> When there is an exception needed, you need to really sell your case to Apple 
> and they might go for it, but assume they won’t. Not all app ideas can be 
> apps.
> 
>> 
>> Are there any links available to guidelines that describe these limitations?
> 
> Apple developer site makes you agree to their terms and conditions. Thats 
> what you want to reread with a very critical ete.
> 
> Kee
> 
>> 
>> Thanks
>> Mark
>> 
>>> On Jan 20, 2021, at 4:25 AM, kee nethery via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> An app to web content is a mystery app. Your restaurant review app that 
>>> pulls from the web could easily be transformed into a pedophile shopping 
>>> app by entering a secret pass phrase and then changing the data on the web 
>>> site. (as an extreme example)
>> 
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>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
>> preferences:
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> 
> 
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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[kee nethery via use-livecode]

> On Jan 20, 2021, at 4:20 AM, Mark Smith via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Kee, but I am a bit puzzled by the restriction.
> 
> That would require complicity from the businesses, which if reputable would 
> be a stretch, no?

There is a significantly large number of certified developers. I personally 
have three developer accounts for three separate efforts. If I was willing, I 
could risk burning one of those accounts. Not that I’m going to do so, just 
saying, yes, the business amd the developer would have to be in on it. 

> For example, if I had an app that linked to course selections on University 
> websites, are they going to suggest that these could be portals to pedophile 
> shopping sites by entering a secret pass phrase? By the sounds of it, please 
> correct me if I am wrong, no iStore app can link to a website for content 
> regardless of the status of the organization that stands behind the site? 
> H, I still have a lot to learn in this space. 

Just saying that you need to really read the published rules and follow them. 
When there is an exception needed, you need to really sell your case to Apple 
and they might go for it, but assume they won’t. Not all app ideas can be apps.

> 
> Are there any links available to guidelines that describe these limitations?

Apple developer site makes you agree to their terms and conditions. Thats what 
you want to reread with a very critical ete.

Kee

> 
> Thanks
> Mark
> 
>> On Jan 20, 2021, at 4:25 AM, kee nethery via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> An app to web content is a mystery app. Your restaurant review app that 
>> pulls from the web could easily be transformed into a pedophile shopping app 
>> by entering a secret pass phrase and then changing the data on the web site. 
>> (as an extreme example)
> 
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> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
> preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[ELS Prothero via use-livecode]

Andre,
You are probably correct. 

Thanks to all of you who have responded to my question about deployment on the 
web.

Best,
Bill

William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

> On Jan 20, 2021, at 8:22 AM, Andre Garzia  wrote:
> 
> 
> Bill,
> 
> :-) that topic is too large for a book to be honest.
> 
> What I recommend is actually building a desktop standalone. Forget the web 
> for that app, push for an app.
> 
> Best
> A
> 
>> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 at 16:20, ELS Prothero 
>>  wrote:
>> Thank you, Andre, for you wisdom. What I take from your comments is if I 
>> want to develop dynamic interactive web based apps with Livecode, I should 
>> get up to speed on JavaScript and will need to either use Livecode to 
>> generate html5, compiled with webAssembly, or find another platform to 
>> develop the software.
>> 
>> Perhaps this topic is an idea for a short book (hint, hint).
>> 
>> Best,
>> Bill
>> 
>> William Prothero
>> http://es.earthednet.org
>> 
>> > On Jan 20, 2021, at 8:03 AM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
>> >  wrote:
>> > 
>> > WebAssembly (aka WASM) is not a silver bullet. It is not something like
>> > "you compile to WebAssembly and then PROFIT".
>> > 
>> > WebAssembly and ASM.js (which is what the current HTML5 LC Runtime uses)
>> > are very similar. The advantages of WASM is that it is a lot smaller –
>> > since it is bytecode and not strings in source code – than ASM.js, also, it
>> > can be streamed so you can start loading it in the VM before it finishes
>> > transferring. Given the same source code in WASM and ASM.js, the WASM one
>> > will transfer and load faster, but that is it. One of the main objectives
>> > of WASM was to reduce latency between the beginning of the load action and
>> > having something running.
>> > 
>> > WASM backends have been integrated in many languages – mostly notable LLVM
>> > – which means that is somewhat doable to compile C/C++ code to WASM. That
>> > doesn't mean that all libraries work. WASM has no graphics part. It deals
>> > with memory and integers (floats?). It doesn't even have a string type. It
>> > is basically a small assembly language to be targeted by compilers.
>> > 
>> > Apps made with WASM do not work with just 100% WASM. You always need JS.
>> > JavaScript is the glue that links DOM, events, and WASM. What you usually
>> > do is have a bunch of JS and then speed up some parts of that code with
>> > WASM. WASM can't touch the DOM, WASM can't handle input events. JS and WASM
>> > are built to complement each other.
>> > 
>> > Most languages targeting WebAssembly deployments have their own "JS
>> > Standard library toolkit" so that when you compile, you end up with a
>> > combination of WASM and JS files (maybe even HTML).
>> > 
>> > The benefit for LC would be a smaller runtime and faster loading, both are
>> > great.
>> > 
>> > Just don't believe it is something magical like we were promised in the 90s
>> > with Java Applets that you'd compile your Java App and it would magically
>> > load on the Web. That is not how this works.
>> > 
>> > If you want to learn more about WebAssembly go to the learning area of MDN
>> > WebDocs:
>> > https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/WebAssembly/Concepts#what_is_webassembly
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> >> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 at 15:53, Andre Garzia  wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> So,
>> >> 
>> >> Displaying bundled content only (or mostly) allows Apple's static analysis
>> >> tools to take a look at your app. They can also identify outgoing
>> >> connections, so they know if you are opening remote pages. If all you do 
>> >> is
>> >> display local content, and there is no outgoing connections, then security
>> >> analysis of your app is easier (also, it works offline from the start 
>> >> which
>> >> is good). This is not an infalible system, but it works for the average
>> >> case.
>> >> 
>> >> As for having an app, that displays external webpages which allow you to
>> >> buy stuff might be a violation of Apple TOS. That is why you don't buy
>> >> Kindle books on the Kindle app on iOS. Amazon doesn't want to give Apple a
>> >> cut. An app that advertises itself as a browser has more leeway with this
>> >> than others. For example it is OK for Mozilla to ship "Firefox" (not 
>> >> really
>> >> Firefox, more like mozSafari) in iOS even though you can open web pages 
>> >> and
>> >> buy stuff with it. It is not OK for you to create an app that opens your
>> >> webstore and sells stuff.
>> >> 
>> >> I'll write another message about WebAssembly...
>> >> 
>> >> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 at 12:22, Mark Smith via use-livecode <
>> >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> >> 
>> >>> Thanks Kee, but I am a bit puzzled by the restriction.
>> >>> 
>> >>> That would require complicity from the businesses, which if reputable
>> >>> would be a stretch, no? For example, if I had an app that linked to 
>> >>> course
>> >>> selections on University websites, are they going to suggest that these
>> >>> could be portals to pedophile shopping 

Re: Considering work with livecode server

[Andre Garzia via use-livecode]

Bill,

:-) that topic is too large for a book to be honest.

What I recommend is actually building a desktop standalone. Forget the web
for that app, push for an app.

Best
A

On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 at 16:20, ELS Prothero <
proth...@earthlearningsolutions.org> wrote:

> Thank you, Andre, for you wisdom. What I take from your comments is if I
> want to develop dynamic interactive web based apps with Livecode, I should
> get up to speed on JavaScript and will need to either use Livecode to
> generate html5, compiled with webAssembly, or find another platform to
> develop the software.
>
> Perhaps this topic is an idea for a short book (hint, hint).
>
> Best,
> Bill
>
> William Prothero
> http://es.earthednet.org
>
> > On Jan 20, 2021, at 8:03 AM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > WebAssembly (aka WASM) is not a silver bullet. It is not something like
> > "you compile to WebAssembly and then PROFIT".
> >
> > WebAssembly and ASM.js (which is what the current HTML5 LC Runtime uses)
> > are very similar. The advantages of WASM is that it is a lot smaller –
> > since it is bytecode and not strings in source code – than ASM.js, also,
> it
> > can be streamed so you can start loading it in the VM before it finishes
> > transferring. Given the same source code in WASM and ASM.js, the WASM one
> > will transfer and load faster, but that is it. One of the main objectives
> > of WASM was to reduce latency between the beginning of the load action
> and
> > having something running.
> >
> > WASM backends have been integrated in many languages – mostly notable
> LLVM
> > – which means that is somewhat doable to compile C/C++ code to WASM. That
> > doesn't mean that all libraries work. WASM has no graphics part. It deals
> > with memory and integers (floats?). It doesn't even have a string type.
> It
> > is basically a small assembly language to be targeted by compilers.
> >
> > Apps made with WASM do not work with just 100% WASM. You always need JS.
> > JavaScript is the glue that links DOM, events, and WASM. What you usually
> > do is have a bunch of JS and then speed up some parts of that code with
> > WASM. WASM can't touch the DOM, WASM can't handle input events. JS and
> WASM
> > are built to complement each other.
> >
> > Most languages targeting WebAssembly deployments have their own "JS
> > Standard library toolkit" so that when you compile, you end up with a
> > combination of WASM and JS files (maybe even HTML).
> >
> > The benefit for LC would be a smaller runtime and faster loading, both
> are
> > great.
> >
> > Just don't believe it is something magical like we were promised in the
> 90s
> > with Java Applets that you'd compile your Java App and it would magically
> > load on the Web. That is not how this works.
> >
> > If you want to learn more about WebAssembly go to the learning area of
> MDN
> > WebDocs:
> >
> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/WebAssembly/Concepts#what_is_webassembly
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 at 15:53, Andre Garzia 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> So,
> >>
> >> Displaying bundled content only (or mostly) allows Apple's static
> analysis
> >> tools to take a look at your app. They can also identify outgoing
> >> connections, so they know if you are opening remote pages. If all you
> do is
> >> display local content, and there is no outgoing connections, then
> security
> >> analysis of your app is easier (also, it works offline from the start
> which
> >> is good). This is not an infalible system, but it works for the average
> >> case.
> >>
> >> As for having an app, that displays external webpages which allow you to
> >> buy stuff might be a violation of Apple TOS. That is why you don't buy
> >> Kindle books on the Kindle app on iOS. Amazon doesn't want to give
> Apple a
> >> cut. An app that advertises itself as a browser has more leeway with
> this
> >> than others. For example it is OK for Mozilla to ship "Firefox" (not
> really
> >> Firefox, more like mozSafari) in iOS even though you can open web pages
> and
> >> buy stuff with it. It is not OK for you to create an app that opens your
> >> webstore and sells stuff.
> >>
> >> I'll write another message about WebAssembly...
> >>
> >> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 at 12:22, Mark Smith via use-livecode <
> >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thanks Kee, but I am a bit puzzled by the restriction.
> >>>
> >>> That would require complicity from the businesses, which if reputable
> >>> would be a stretch, no? For example, if I had an app that linked to
> course
> >>> selections on University websites, are they going to suggest that these
> >>> could be portals to pedophile shopping sites by entering a secret pass
> >>> phrase? By the sounds of it, please correct me if I am wrong, no
> iStore app
> >>> can link to a website for content regardless of the status of the
> >>> organization that stands behind the site? H, I still have a lot to
> >>> learn in this space.
> >>>
> >>> Are 

Re: Considering work with livecode server

[ELS Prothero via use-livecode]

Thank you, Andre, for you wisdom. What I take from your comments is if I want 
to develop dynamic interactive web based apps with Livecode, I should get up to 
speed on JavaScript and will need to either use Livecode to generate html5, 
compiled with webAssembly, or find another platform to develop the software.

Perhaps this topic is an idea for a short book (hint, hint).

Best,
Bill

William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

> On Jan 20, 2021, at 8:03 AM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> WebAssembly (aka WASM) is not a silver bullet. It is not something like
> "you compile to WebAssembly and then PROFIT".
> 
> WebAssembly and ASM.js (which is what the current HTML5 LC Runtime uses)
> are very similar. The advantages of WASM is that it is a lot smaller –
> since it is bytecode and not strings in source code – than ASM.js, also, it
> can be streamed so you can start loading it in the VM before it finishes
> transferring. Given the same source code in WASM and ASM.js, the WASM one
> will transfer and load faster, but that is it. One of the main objectives
> of WASM was to reduce latency between the beginning of the load action and
> having something running.
> 
> WASM backends have been integrated in many languages – mostly notable LLVM
> – which means that is somewhat doable to compile C/C++ code to WASM. That
> doesn't mean that all libraries work. WASM has no graphics part. It deals
> with memory and integers (floats?). It doesn't even have a string type. It
> is basically a small assembly language to be targeted by compilers.
> 
> Apps made with WASM do not work with just 100% WASM. You always need JS.
> JavaScript is the glue that links DOM, events, and WASM. What you usually
> do is have a bunch of JS and then speed up some parts of that code with
> WASM. WASM can't touch the DOM, WASM can't handle input events. JS and WASM
> are built to complement each other.
> 
> Most languages targeting WebAssembly deployments have their own "JS
> Standard library toolkit" so that when you compile, you end up with a
> combination of WASM and JS files (maybe even HTML).
> 
> The benefit for LC would be a smaller runtime and faster loading, both are
> great.
> 
> Just don't believe it is something magical like we were promised in the 90s
> with Java Applets that you'd compile your Java App and it would magically
> load on the Web. That is not how this works.
> 
> If you want to learn more about WebAssembly go to the learning area of MDN
> WebDocs:
> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/WebAssembly/Concepts#what_is_webassembly
> 
> 
> 
>> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 at 15:53, Andre Garzia  wrote:
>> 
>> So,
>> 
>> Displaying bundled content only (or mostly) allows Apple's static analysis
>> tools to take a look at your app. They can also identify outgoing
>> connections, so they know if you are opening remote pages. If all you do is
>> display local content, and there is no outgoing connections, then security
>> analysis of your app is easier (also, it works offline from the start which
>> is good). This is not an infalible system, but it works for the average
>> case.
>> 
>> As for having an app, that displays external webpages which allow you to
>> buy stuff might be a violation of Apple TOS. That is why you don't buy
>> Kindle books on the Kindle app on iOS. Amazon doesn't want to give Apple a
>> cut. An app that advertises itself as a browser has more leeway with this
>> than others. For example it is OK for Mozilla to ship "Firefox" (not really
>> Firefox, more like mozSafari) in iOS even though you can open web pages and
>> buy stuff with it. It is not OK for you to create an app that opens your
>> webstore and sells stuff.
>> 
>> I'll write another message about WebAssembly...
>> 
>> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 at 12:22, Mark Smith via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Thanks Kee, but I am a bit puzzled by the restriction.
>>> 
>>> That would require complicity from the businesses, which if reputable
>>> would be a stretch, no? For example, if I had an app that linked to course
>>> selections on University websites, are they going to suggest that these
>>> could be portals to pedophile shopping sites by entering a secret pass
>>> phrase? By the sounds of it, please correct me if I am wrong, no iStore app
>>> can link to a website for content regardless of the status of the
>>> organization that stands behind the site? H, I still have a lot to
>>> learn in this space.
>>> 
>>> Are there any links available to guidelines that describe these
>>> limitations?
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> Mark
>>> 
 On Jan 20, 2021, at 4:25 AM, kee nethery via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
 
 An app to web content is a mystery app. Your restaurant review app that
>>> pulls from the web could easily be transformed into a pedophile shopping
>>> app by entering a secret pass phrase and then changing the data on the web
>>> site. (as an extreme example)
>>> 
>>> 

Re: Considering work with livecode server

[Andre Garzia via use-livecode]

WebAssembly (aka WASM) is not a silver bullet. It is not something like
"you compile to WebAssembly and then PROFIT".

WebAssembly and ASM.js (which is what the current HTML5 LC Runtime uses)
are very similar. The advantages of WASM is that it is a lot smaller –
since it is bytecode and not strings in source code – than ASM.js, also, it
can be streamed so you can start loading it in the VM before it finishes
transferring. Given the same source code in WASM and ASM.js, the WASM one
will transfer and load faster, but that is it. One of the main objectives
of WASM was to reduce latency between the beginning of the load action and
having something running.

WASM backends have been integrated in many languages – mostly notable LLVM
– which means that is somewhat doable to compile C/C++ code to WASM. That
doesn't mean that all libraries work. WASM has no graphics part. It deals
with memory and integers (floats?). It doesn't even have a string type. It
is basically a small assembly language to be targeted by compilers.

Apps made with WASM do not work with just 100% WASM. You always need JS.
JavaScript is the glue that links DOM, events, and WASM. What you usually
do is have a bunch of JS and then speed up some parts of that code with
WASM. WASM can't touch the DOM, WASM can't handle input events. JS and WASM
are built to complement each other.

Most languages targeting WebAssembly deployments have their own "JS
Standard library toolkit" so that when you compile, you end up with a
combination of WASM and JS files (maybe even HTML).

The benefit for LC would be a smaller runtime and faster loading, both are
great.

Just don't believe it is something magical like we were promised in the 90s
with Java Applets that you'd compile your Java App and it would magically
load on the Web. That is not how this works.

If you want to learn more about WebAssembly go to the learning area of MDN
WebDocs:
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/WebAssembly/Concepts#what_is_webassembly



On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 at 15:53, Andre Garzia  wrote:

> So,
>
> Displaying bundled content only (or mostly) allows Apple's static analysis
> tools to take a look at your app. They can also identify outgoing
> connections, so they know if you are opening remote pages. If all you do is
> display local content, and there is no outgoing connections, then security
> analysis of your app is easier (also, it works offline from the start which
> is good). This is not an infalible system, but it works for the average
> case.
>
> As for having an app, that displays external webpages which allow you to
> buy stuff might be a violation of Apple TOS. That is why you don't buy
> Kindle books on the Kindle app on iOS. Amazon doesn't want to give Apple a
> cut. An app that advertises itself as a browser has more leeway with this
> than others. For example it is OK for Mozilla to ship "Firefox" (not really
> Firefox, more like mozSafari) in iOS even though you can open web pages and
> buy stuff with it. It is not OK for you to create an app that opens your
> webstore and sells stuff.
>
> I'll write another message about WebAssembly...
>
> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 at 12:22, Mark Smith via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Kee, but I am a bit puzzled by the restriction.
>>
>> That would require complicity from the businesses, which if reputable
>> would be a stretch, no? For example, if I had an app that linked to course
>> selections on University websites, are they going to suggest that these
>> could be portals to pedophile shopping sites by entering a secret pass
>> phrase? By the sounds of it, please correct me if I am wrong, no iStore app
>> can link to a website for content regardless of the status of the
>> organization that stands behind the site? H, I still have a lot to
>> learn in this space.
>>
>> Are there any links available to guidelines that describe these
>> limitations?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Mark
>>
>> > On Jan 20, 2021, at 4:25 AM, kee nethery via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > An app to web content is a mystery app. Your restaurant review app that
>> pulls from the web could easily be transformed into a pedophile shopping
>> app by entering a secret pass phrase and then changing the data on the web
>> site. (as an extreme example)
>>
>> ___
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>
>
> --
> https://www.andregarzia.com 
> Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia
>


-- 
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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[Andre Garzia via use-livecode]

So,

Displaying bundled content only (or mostly) allows Apple's static analysis
tools to take a look at your app. They can also identify outgoing
connections, so they know if you are opening remote pages. If all you do is
display local content, and there is no outgoing connections, then security
analysis of your app is easier (also, it works offline from the start which
is good). This is not an infalible system, but it works for the average
case.

As for having an app, that displays external webpages which allow you to
buy stuff might be a violation of Apple TOS. That is why you don't buy
Kindle books on the Kindle app on iOS. Amazon doesn't want to give Apple a
cut. An app that advertises itself as a browser has more leeway with this
than others. For example it is OK for Mozilla to ship "Firefox" (not really
Firefox, more like mozSafari) in iOS even though you can open web pages and
buy stuff with it. It is not OK for you to create an app that opens your
webstore and sells stuff.

I'll write another message about WebAssembly...

On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 at 12:22, Mark Smith via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Thanks Kee, but I am a bit puzzled by the restriction.
>
> That would require complicity from the businesses, which if reputable
> would be a stretch, no? For example, if I had an app that linked to course
> selections on University websites, are they going to suggest that these
> could be portals to pedophile shopping sites by entering a secret pass
> phrase? By the sounds of it, please correct me if I am wrong, no iStore app
> can link to a website for content regardless of the status of the
> organization that stands behind the site? H, I still have a lot to
> learn in this space.
>
> Are there any links available to guidelines that describe these
> limitations?
>
> Thanks
> Mark
>
> > On Jan 20, 2021, at 4:25 AM, kee nethery via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > An app to web content is a mystery app. Your restaurant review app that
> pulls from the web could easily be transformed into a pedophile shopping
> app by entering a secret pass phrase and then changing the data on the web
> site. (as an extreme example)
>
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via use-livecode]

> Thanks Kee, but I am a bit puzzled by the restriction.
> 
> That would require complicity from the businesses, which if reputable would 
> be a stretch, no? For example, if I had an app that linked to course 
> selections on University websites, are they going to suggest that these could 
> be portals to pedophile shopping sites by entering a secret pass phrase? By 
> the sounds of it, please correct me if I am wrong, no iStore app can link to 
> a website for content regardless of the status of the organization that 
> stands behind the site? H, I still have a lot to learn in this space. 
> 
> Are there any links available to guidelines that describe these limitations?

The guidelines don’t matter much because you’re at the mercy of whatever tester 
get’s your build to approve: it seems to be very subjective by reviewer. What I 
have found is that you can have some website stuff, but you need some mobile 
app specific features as well (push notifications, location services, etc.). It 
has also been my experience that “leading” with the web content isn’t as 
successful as opening with some static content. YMMV

Last week I got a brand new app approved (for TestFlight, not fully released 
yet but is the same approval process) for a University that contains a web 
viewer. This is only 1 of half a dozen cards in the app, and goes directly to a 
mobile landing page for a particular department. You are free to click around 
and visit the site, but you can’t manually enter a URL into a field and visit 
that site you are “stuck” with whatever links we provide. Since this isn’t the 
main focus, and is fairly contained, I had no worries about this being an issue 
(and it wasn’t). If you message me off-list with your AppleID, I’d be happy to 
add to TestFlight so you can see what I’m talking about.

But I have had apps with services that were “coming soon” so to start there was 
some bare bones content and a few browser widgets going to specific pages on a 
business website: this got rejected due to Apple’s 4.2 Minimum Functionality 
clause. After rushing to add a feature or two, and make sure those cards were 
the first to appear rather than the browser widget, got the barebones project 
approved. (A year later, the client still hasn’t paid to finish the project so 
it’s still sitting in the App Store at v0.4.03)

—Andrew Bell
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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[Mark Smith via use-livecode]

Thanks Kee, but I am a bit puzzled by the restriction.

That would require complicity from the businesses, which if reputable would be 
a stretch, no? For example, if I had an app that linked to course selections on 
University websites, are they going to suggest that these could be portals to 
pedophile shopping sites by entering a secret pass phrase? By the sounds of it, 
please correct me if I am wrong, no iStore app can link to a website for 
content regardless of the status of the organization that stands behind the 
site? H, I still have a lot to learn in this space. 

Are there any links available to guidelines that describe these limitations?

Thanks
Mark

> On Jan 20, 2021, at 4:25 AM, kee nethery via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> An app to web content is a mystery app. Your restaurant review app that pulls 
> from the web could easily be transformed into a pedophile shopping app by 
> entering a secret pass phrase and then changing the data on the web site. (as 
> an extreme example)

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RE: Considering work with livecode server

[Paul Richards via use-livecode]

This looks to be marked against  9.7.0 DP1.  You can track it's progress on 
GitHub.  

https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7330  



-Original Message-
From: use-livecode  On Behalf Of William 
Prothero via use-livecode
Sent: 20 January 2021 03:27
To: JJS via use-livecode 
Cc: William Prothero 
Subject: Re: Considering work with livecode server

Hmmm…. I see:
"Add WebAssembly build target in HTML5 deployment”, in the"team is working on 
right now” category. I guess, given all the delays and getting HTML5 up, I 
won’t hold my breath. But, I’ll certainly be watching for it. Gaads, another 
subscription to purchase. But getting real livecode dynamic features on the web 
would be a game-changer for me. 

Best,
Bill

> On Jan 19, 2021, at 12:50 PM, William de Smet via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> WebAssembly is on the roadmap.
> https://livecode.com/resources/roadmap/
> 
> 
> 
>> Op 19 jan. 2021 om 20:43 heeft William Prothero via use-livecode 
>>  het volgende geschreven:
>> 
>> Dan:
>> I just did a bit of Googling and wow! It sounds like a capability to compile 
>> to WebAssembly would put LiveCode in the big time. I wonder if there is any 
>> interest from the dev team. Sounds much more useful than HTML5.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Bill
>> 
>>> On Jan 19, 2021, at 11:13 AM, Dan Brown  wrote:
>>> 
>>> When livecode supports WebAssembly as a build target you'll be able to do 
>>> what you've asked
>>> 
>>> On Tue, 19 Jan 2021, 20:46 William Prothero via use-livecode, 
>>> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> Thanks, all, for your comments. It would sure be nice if there was some 
>>> equivalent to shockwave, back in the days. Of course, downloadable plug-ins 
>>> like shockwave and flash apparently have too many security issues and are 
>>> not allowed anymore. 
>>> 
>>> HTML5 eventually? I assume HTML5 apps would run in a browser.
>>> 
>>> Thanks again,
>>> Bill
>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 19, 2021, at 8:57 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
>>>>> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> If only!
>>>> 
>>>> Bob S
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 19, 2021, at 5:56 AM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
>>>>> >>>> <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com><mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>>>>>  <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> A website from 1995
>>>> needs to be just as valid to the browser as one from 2021.
>>>> 
>>>> ___
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>>>> subscription preferences:
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>>>> <http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode>
>>> 
>>> William A. Prothero
>>> https://earthlearningsolutions.org <https://earthlearningsolutions.org/>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> use-livecode mailing list
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>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>>> subscription preferences:
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>>> <http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode>
>> 
>> William A. Prothero
>> https://earthlearningsolutions.org
>> 
>> ___
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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

kee nethery wrote:

> On Jan 19, 2021, at 7:58 AM, Mark Smith wrote:
>>
>> Hi Andre, how are “apps to bundled content” different from “apps that
>> are portals to web content" (Jacque’s description)? Or put another
>> way, if someone wanted to design a tourist app that highlighted
>> interesting local tourist destinations near them with a link you can
>> click on to purchase tickets or book reservations etc, would that
>> violate Apple’s guidelines? Asking for a friend :)
>
> Pick me! I know this one!
>
> An app to bundled content means that they can review everything that
> is going to get displayed to a user and approve or deny based upon the
> content they review.
>
> An app to web content is a mystery app. Your restaurant review app
> that pulls from the web could easily be transformed into a pedophile
> shopping app by entering a secret pass phrase and then changing the
> data on the web site. (as an extreme example)

Any data can be replaced with porn or other contraband.

Any app can transform itself at a later date into something other than 
what was reviewed.


Neither can be prevented.

Both are remedied with banning.

This is not unique to LiveCode; it applies to all apps.

So don't do that, in any language.

I've seen no restrictions on specific binary formats. Stack files, 
spreadsheets, interactive books -- all variants of the same thing.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

William Prothero wrote:

> It would sure be nice if there was some equivalent to shockwave...

For all practical purposes we do:

The Shockwave plugin was an executable engine you could download and 
install once, and then play a wide range of scripted interactive media 
with it.


A LiveCode standalone is an executable engine you can download and 
install once, and then play a wide range of scripted interactive media 
with it.


The differences are that Shockwave was confined to the limitations of a 
browser window. And that it no longer exists.


LiveCode lives outside the confines of a browser window, allowing full 
desktop integration (cache control, document associations, etc.). And 
LiveCode exists. :)


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[kee nethery via use-livecode]

> On Jan 19, 2021, at 7:58 AM, Mark Smith via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Andre, how are “apps to bundled content” different from “apps that are 
> portals to web content" (Jacque’s description)? Or put another way, if 
> someone wanted to design a tourist app that highlighted interesting local 
> tourist destinations near them with a link you can click on to purchase 
> tickets or book reservations etc, would that violate Apple’s guidelines? 
> Asking for a friend :)
> 
> Cheers,
> Mark

Pick me! I know this one!

An app to bundled content means that they can review everything that is going 
to get displayed to a user and approve or deny based upon the content they 
review.

An app to web content is a mystery app. Your restaurant review app that pulls 
from the web could easily be transformed into a pedophile shopping app by 
entering a secret pass phrase and then changing the data on the web site. (as 
an extreme example)

Kee Nethery
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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[William Prothero via use-livecode]

Hmmm…. I see:
"Add WebAssembly build target in HTML5 deployment”, in the"team is working on 
right now” category. I guess, given all the delays and getting HTML5 up, I 
won’t hold my breath. But, I’ll certainly be watching for it. Gaads, another 
subscription to purchase. But getting real livecode dynamic features on the web 
would be a game-changer for me. 

Best,
Bill

> On Jan 19, 2021, at 12:50 PM, William de Smet via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> WebAssembly is on the roadmap.
> https://livecode.com/resources/roadmap/
> 
> 
> 
>> Op 19 jan. 2021 om 20:43 heeft William Prothero via use-livecode 
>>  het volgende geschreven:
>> 
>> Dan:
>> I just did a bit of Googling and wow! It sounds like a capability to compile 
>> to WebAssembly would put LiveCode in the big time. I wonder if there is any 
>> interest from the dev team. Sounds much more useful than HTML5.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Bill
>> 
>>> On Jan 19, 2021, at 11:13 AM, Dan Brown  wrote:
>>> 
>>> When livecode supports WebAssembly as a build target you'll be able to do 
>>> what you've asked
>>> 
>>> On Tue, 19 Jan 2021, 20:46 William Prothero via use-livecode, 
>>> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> Thanks, all, for your comments. It would sure be nice if there was some 
>>> equivalent to shockwave, back in the days. Of course, downloadable plug-ins 
>>> like shockwave and flash apparently have too many security issues and are 
>>> not allowed anymore. 
>>> 
>>> HTML5 eventually? I assume HTML5 apps would run in a browser.
>>> 
>>> Thanks again,
>>> Bill
>>> 
> On Jan 19, 2021, at 8:57 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> 
> wrote:
 
 If only!
 
 Bob S
 
 
> On Jan 19, 2021, at 5:56 AM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
>    >> wrote:
 
 A website from 1995
 needs to be just as valid to the browser as one from 2021.
 
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>>> 
>>> William A. Prothero
>>> https://earthlearningsolutions.org 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
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>>> subscription preferences:
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>>> 
>> 
>> William A. Prothero
>> https://earthlearningsolutions.org
>> 
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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[William de Smet via use-livecode]

WebAssembly is on the roadmap.
https://livecode.com/resources/roadmap/



> Op 19 jan. 2021 om 20:43 heeft William Prothero via use-livecode 
>  het volgende geschreven:
> 
> Dan:
> I just did a bit of Googling and wow! It sounds like a capability to compile 
> to WebAssembly would put LiveCode in the big time. I wonder if there is any 
> interest from the dev team. Sounds much more useful than HTML5.
> 
> Best,
> Bill
> 
>> On Jan 19, 2021, at 11:13 AM, Dan Brown  wrote:
>> 
>> When livecode supports WebAssembly as a build target you'll be able to do 
>> what you've asked
>> 
>> On Tue, 19 Jan 2021, 20:46 William Prothero via use-livecode, 
>> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
>> Thanks, all, for your comments. It would sure be nice if there was some 
>> equivalent to shockwave, back in the days. Of course, downloadable plug-ins 
>> like shockwave and flash apparently have too many security issues and are 
>> not allowed anymore. 
>> 
>> HTML5 eventually? I assume HTML5 apps would run in a browser.
>> 
>> Thanks again,
>> Bill
>> 
 On Jan 19, 2021, at 8:57 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
 mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> 
 wrote:
>>> 
>>> If only!
>>> 
>>> Bob S
>>> 
>>> 
 On Jan 19, 2021, at 5:56 AM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
 >>> >> wrote:
>>> 
>>> A website from 1995
>>> needs to be just as valid to the browser as one from 2021.
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com 
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>>> subscription preferences:
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>>> 
>> 
>> William A. Prothero
>> https://earthlearningsolutions.org 
>> 
>> 
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>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
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> 
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> https://earthlearningsolutions.org
> 
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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[William Prothero via use-livecode]

Dan:
I just did a bit of Googling and wow! It sounds like a capability to compile to 
WebAssembly would put LiveCode in the big time. I wonder if there is any 
interest from the dev team. Sounds much more useful than HTML5.

Best,
Bill

> On Jan 19, 2021, at 11:13 AM, Dan Brown  wrote:
> 
> When livecode supports WebAssembly as a build target you'll be able to do 
> what you've asked
> 
> On Tue, 19 Jan 2021, 20:46 William Prothero via use-livecode, 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
> Thanks, all, for your comments. It would sure be nice if there was some 
> equivalent to shockwave, back in the days. Of course, downloadable plug-ins 
> like shockwave and flash apparently have too many security issues and are not 
> allowed anymore. 
> 
> HTML5 eventually? I assume HTML5 apps would run in a browser.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Bill
> 
> > On Jan 19, 2021, at 8:57 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
> > mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > If only!
> > 
> > Bob S
> > 
> > 
> > On Jan 19, 2021, at 5:56 AM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
> >  >  > >> wrote:
> > 
> > A website from 1995
> > needs to be just as valid to the browser as one from 2021.
> > 
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com 
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode 
> > 
> 
> William A. Prothero
> https://earthlearningsolutions.org 
> 
> 
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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[Dan Brown via use-livecode]

When livecode supports WebAssembly as a build target you'll be able to do
what you've asked

On Tue, 19 Jan 2021, 20:46 William Prothero via use-livecode, <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Thanks, all, for your comments. It would sure be nice if there was some
> equivalent to shockwave, back in the days. Of course, downloadable plug-ins
> like shockwave and flash apparently have too many security issues and are
> not allowed anymore.
>
> HTML5 eventually? I assume HTML5 apps would run in a browser.
>
> Thanks again,
> Bill
>
> > On Jan 19, 2021, at 8:57 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > If only!
> >
> > Bob S
> >
> >
> > On Jan 19, 2021, at 5:56 AM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > A website from 1995
> > needs to be just as valid to the browser as one from 2021.
> >
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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>
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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[William Prothero via use-livecode]

Thanks, all, for your comments. It would sure be nice if there was some 
equivalent to shockwave, back in the days. Of course, downloadable plug-ins 
like shockwave and flash apparently have too many security issues and are not 
allowed anymore. 

HTML5 eventually? I assume HTML5 apps would run in a browser.

Thanks again,
Bill

> On Jan 19, 2021, at 8:57 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> If only!
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
> On Jan 19, 2021, at 5:56 AM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
> 
> A website from 1995
> needs to be just as valid to the browser as one from 2021.
> 
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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

If only!

Bob S


On Jan 19, 2021, at 5:56 AM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

A website from 1995
needs to be just as valid to the browser as one from 2021.

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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[Mark Smith via use-livecode]

Hi Andre, how are “apps to bundled content” different from “apps that are 
portals to web content" (Jacque’s description)? Or put another way, if someone 
wanted to design a tourist app that highlighted interesting local tourist 
destinations near them with a link you can click on to purchase tickets or book 
reservations etc, would that violate Apple’s guidelines? Asking for a friend :)

Cheers,
Mark

> On Jan 19, 2021, at 1:49 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> But apps that are browsers to bundled content are OK. That is how you get
> Apache Cordova and Phonegap to work.
> 
> On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 02:06, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 1/18/21 2:20 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote:
>> 
>>> Building a single web-based app that avoids the world of all the mobile
>> apps and desktop idiosyncrasies is attractive.
>> 
>> I thought mobile stores (Apple, etc) explicitly disallowed apps that
>> were essentially just web browsers to external content.
>> 
>> Am I wrong about this?
>> 
>> --
>>  Mark Wieder
>>  ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>> 
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> 
> 
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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Andre Garzia wrote:

> But apps that are browsers to bundled content are OK. That is how you
> get Apache Cordova and Phonegap to work.
>
> On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 02:06, Mark Wieder wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/18/21 2:20 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Building a single web-based app that avoids the world of all
>> the mobile apps and desktop idiosyncrasies is attractive.
>>
>> I thought mobile stores (Apple, etc) explicitly disallowed apps that
>> were essentially just web browsers to external content.

Roger that, Andre. Apple's emphasis has to do with the user experience, 
rather than the technical means by which that experience is derived.


What they want to avoid is an app that could just as easily have been a 
web site.  It's one of the few areas in which Apple (or any of the Big 
Five) support the Open Web.


Indeed, even in their most draconian moment, the 
infamous-and-ultimately-backpedaled debacle with iOS SDK v4,0 Section 
3.3.1 mess of 2010, they explicitly blessed JavaScript frameworks as a 
tech stack for deploying native iOS apps.


In this case here, I believe Bill was looking to bypass self-appointed 
gatekeepers altogether, using "web app" to refer to the Open Web, beyond 
the control of FAANG.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[Andre Garzia via use-livecode]

Bill,

Let me second what Richard said, you'd be better served by building desktop
stack apps than by building web apps. There is no silver bullet for doing
web work, there is no magical technology that makes it as easy as LC. The
Web is a design by committee with various multi-billion companies doing
power plays around it. To be effective on the web, you need to learn HTML,
CSS, and JS. You don't need to be an expert, but you need to learn up to
some intermediate level to do the kind of interactions you are talking
about. The web has quirks and some anachronisms in it but that is because
it can't afford to break compatibility with itself. A website from 1995
needs to be just as valid to the browser as one from 2021. What this means
is that there are still people programming the web as if it still is 1995,
so the quality of material you find online varies a lot. I'm happy that I
know it well but when I need some app on my day to day work, I will more
often turn to LC than building a web solution.

You can build richer experiences more easily by using LC and shipping a
loader standalone than by using LC server without knowing JS.

Kind regards
a

On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 13:49, Andre Garzia  wrote:

> But apps that are browsers to bundled content are OK. That is how you get
> Apache Cordova and Phonegap to work.
>
> On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 02:06, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> On 1/18/21 2:20 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote:
>>
>> > Building a single web-based app that avoids the world of all the mobile
>> apps and desktop idiosyncrasies is attractive.
>>
>> I thought mobile stores (Apple, etc) explicitly disallowed apps that
>> were essentially just web browsers to external content.
>>
>> Am I wrong about this?
>>
>> --
>>   Mark Wieder
>>   ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>>
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>> subscription preferences:
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>>
>
>
> --
> https://www.andregarzia.com 
> Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia
>


-- 
https://www.andregarzia.com 
Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia
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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[Andre Garzia via use-livecode]

But apps that are browsers to bundled content are OK. That is how you get
Apache Cordova and Phonegap to work.

On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 02:06, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 1/18/21 2:20 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote:
>
> > Building a single web-based app that avoids the world of all the mobile
> apps and desktop idiosyncrasies is attractive.
>
> I thought mobile stores (Apple, etc) explicitly disallowed apps that
> were essentially just web browsers to external content.
>
> Am I wrong about this?
>
> --
>   Mark Wieder
>   ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>
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> subscription preferences:
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>


-- 
https://www.andregarzia.com 
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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

That's right. Apps that are just portals to web content are forbidden.
--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On January 18, 2021 8:07:08 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
 wrote:



On 1/18/21 2:20 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote:

Building a single web-based app that avoids the world of all the mobile 
apps and desktop idiosyncrasies is attractive.


I thought mobile stores (Apple, etc) explicitly disallowed apps that
were essentially just web browsers to external content.

Am I wrong about this?

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 1/18/21 2:20 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote:


Building a single web-based app that avoids the world of all the mobile apps 
and desktop idiosyncrasies is attractive.


I thought mobile stores (Apple, etc) explicitly disallowed apps that 
were essentially just web browsers to external content.


Am I wrong about this?

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

William Prothero wrote:

> Richard,
> I did understand that the server was pretty much like php, but I
> didn’t know how much beyond that it could go in terms of dynamic
> interaction with screen objects.

LC Server does have the ability to export graphics, but being at the far 
end of an HTTP connection it's not quite what you're looking for.


As for client-side option:

> The reason I wanted to look into it’s use in a browser is that for
> education, lower level grades use a lot of browser based materials
> because they don’t require kids to download apps and the most
> disadvantaged of kids can mostly use a browser. Also, teachers are
> pretty much max’d out and want to keep things the way students are
> accustomed. Building a single web-based app that avoids the world of
> all the mobile apps and desktop idiosyncrasies is attractive.

Yeah, it's a funny thing I see as you do, but can't quite wrap my head 
around:


On mobile devices, it's all "No, it can't be in a browser, it MUST be a 
native app!"


But then with a larger screen it's somehow "No, it can't be a native 
app, it MUST be in a browser!"


:)

These days I tend to consider browser first, looking at native apps 
(desktop or mobile both) only when there's some solid reason not to use 
a browser.


But there are many reasons, and for most of the last several years just 
about everything I make is a slim standalone that pulls stuff down from 
web servers, so for the small cost of a one-time install the user always 
has the latest and greatest without ever having to think about it again.



> My experience is that building the app in Livecode is the easy/fun
> part and getting it on the wide variety of platforms (Apple, windows,
> Chromebooks, iPads, the Android variations, etc, etc) is the time-
> consuming/mind-numbing challenge. I have build iOS apps and hate to
> spend my time fighting the deployment issues.

If you need platform coverage that broad your options are narrow.  The 
design requirements for such a range of screen sizes require a deep 
re-think for most UI layouts, something that CSS is designed to handle 
but little else is.



> My comments are from the perspective of a guy who is retired, enjoys
> building useful education tools, and gives away my creations for free
> to pay back the National Science Foundation for all the support I got
> while working. So, I’m trying to maximize my satisfaction from this
> hobby.
>
> I came to Livecode from Director and Shockwave. I love Livecode, but
> wish it could do the same in a browser that it does so well with
> desktop and apps.

If you're not bound to market expectations you may be able to call the 
shots. Do what you want, and if people's preoccupations prevent them 
from enjoying it their loss. :)


Browsers are DEEPLY, VASTLY different from native apps.  Born for 
trading research papers with everything else we enjoy grafted on after 
the fact, browsers handle content with a built-in reflow logic that no 
authoring environment for desktop can or even should be expected to 
match, any more than we bite into an apple expecting it to taste like an 
orange.


A small subset of things can port nicely, and my preferred way of 
working is authoring with custom LC tools and generating web-ready HTML 
from those.


If the only interaction you need is hiding/showing things and maybe a 
few other things, it would be fairly straightforward to write library in 
LC and a matching library in JavaScript, so you can author away to your 
heart's content by just setting properties, and the interaction behavior 
carries over nicely from your desktop authoring to the browser viewing.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[Rick Harrison via use-livecode]

Hi Bill,

If you just want to put together good-looking quick and dirty webpages
that don’t need database interaction, you might want to use Apple’s
Keynote software.  You can put together a presentation with links
from one page to another, and just export the whole thing as HTML.
It works really great for what it is.  Try it out!

Good luck!

Rick

> On Jan 18, 2021, at 5:20 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Richard,
> I did understand that the server was pretty much like php, but I didn’t know 
> how much beyond that it could go in terms of dynamic interaction with screen 
> objects.
> 
> The reason I wanted to look into it’s use in a browser is that for education, 
> lower level grades use a lot of browser based materials because they don’t 
> require kids to download apps and the most disadvantaged of kids can mostly 
> use a browser. Also, teachers are pretty much max’d out and want to keep 
> things the way students are accustomed. Building a single web-based app that 
> avoids the world of all the mobile apps and desktop idiosyncrasies is 
> attractive. My experience is that building the app in Livecode is the 
> easy/fun part and getting it on the wide variety of platforms (Apple, 
> windows, Chromebooks, iPads, the Android variations, etc, etc) is the 
> time-consuming/mind-numbing challenge. I have build iOS apps and hate to 
> spend my time fighting the deployment issues.
> 
> My comments are from the perspective of a guy who is retired, enjoys building 
> useful education tools, and gives away my creations for free to pay back the 
> National Science Foundation for all the support I got while working. So, I’m 
> trying to maximize my satisfaction from this hobby.
> 
> I came to Livecode from Director and Shockwave. I love Livecode, but wish it 
> could do the same in a browser that it does so well with desktop and apps.
> 
> Everybody: Be Well, Be Safe, it’s been a crazy year in the US, and in the 
> world too.
> 
> Bill
> 
> William Prothero
> https://earthlearningsolutions.org


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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[William Prothero via use-livecode]

Richard,
I did understand that the server was pretty much like php, but I didn’t know 
how much beyond that it could go in terms of dynamic interaction with screen 
objects.

The reason I wanted to look into it’s use in a browser is that for education, 
lower level grades use a lot of browser based materials because they don’t 
require kids to download apps and the most disadvantaged of kids can mostly use 
a browser. Also, teachers are pretty much max’d out and want to keep things the 
way students are accustomed. Building a single web-based app that avoids the 
world of all the mobile apps and desktop idiosyncrasies is attractive. My 
experience is that building the app in Livecode is the easy/fun part and 
getting it on the wide variety of platforms (Apple, windows, Chromebooks, 
iPads, the Android variations, etc, etc) is the time-consuming/mind-numbing 
challenge. I have build iOS apps and hate to spend my time fighting the 
deployment issues.

My comments are from the perspective of a guy who is retired, enjoys building 
useful education tools, and gives away my creations for free to pay back the 
National Science Foundation for all the support I got while working. So, I’m 
trying to maximize my satisfaction from this hobby.

I came to Livecode from Director and Shockwave. I love Livecode, but wish it 
could do the same in a browser that it does so well with desktop and apps.

Everybody: Be Well, Be Safe, it’s been a crazy year in the US, and in the world 
too.

Bill

William Prothero
https://earthlearningsolutions.org
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Re: Considering work with livecode server

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Bill Prothero wrote:

> I’m considering doing some work with LiveCode server.
...
> Can I position and drag graphic images around. For example, I’m
> thinking of the capability to create an image with various parts
> that I can click to hide and position based on mouse drags or
> clicks or whatever I want.

LC Server runs on a server, specifically as a CGI under Apache.  Its 
role is similar to PHP and other server-side languages in allowing a 
developer to add custom functionality to Apache.


It has no direct role in anything client-side, whether a browser or an 
LC app.  Client software sends requests to the server, and the server 
sends them back to the client.  The two are very separate, connected 
only through HTTP.


If you're looking for that sort of client-side interaction, and IF you 
ABSOLUTELY MUST confine the experience to the browser app, your only 
viable option is the browser-native technology stack, JavaScript/HTML/CSS.


LiveCode's HTML export aims to deliver a replacement for browser-native 
options, but by its nature it's well suited only fora very small number 
of projects.


If you're looking for the benefits of lightweight delivery over HTTP, 
and have no requirement that you ABSOLUTELY MUST limit what you're doing 
to be delivered specifically inside of a browser window, the most 
powerful option we have is also the simplest:  just download a stack 
within a lean standalone.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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