Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Most plug and play firewalls do (and firewalling is what we are talking about 
here). I am not an Android or even an iOS developer, but isn't that up to the 
OS and not the app?

Bob S


> On Jul 21, 2017, at 13:57 , J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 7/20/17 7:02 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> As a side note, the earlier suggestion that every app that's granted 
>> permission to make outgoing requests also has privileges to open ports for 
>> incoming connections kinda freaks me out.
> 
> That's a broader interpretation than I intended. I believe (but am not sure) 
> that Android only allows solicited responses and blocks unsolicited internet 
> traffic. But I'd recommend doing some research because I'm no authority on 
> this stuff.
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com


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Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 7/20/17 7:02 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
As a side note, the earlier suggestion that every app that's granted 
permission to make outgoing requests also has privileges to open ports 
for incoming connections kinda freaks me out.


That's a broader interpretation than I intended. I believe (but am not 
sure) that Android only allows solicited responses and blocks 
unsolicited internet traffic. But I'd recommend doing some research 
because I'm no authority on this stuff.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Heh heh. No one saw the point to trying to run Windows on a Mac, or a Mac on an 
Intel chipset either. Until someone saw the point. :-)

Bob S


> On Jul 20, 2017, at 16:14 , Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> A bit OT but entertaining, apparently one can use an iPhone as a server:
> 
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6804650/ios-devices-as-web-server
> 
> I see no point to this, but, you know, people just do things :)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


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Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Ralph DiMola wrote:

> I use a "stun" server to get the ata(sip client) ip behind NAT. There
> are public stun servers or you can install an open source one on your
> one server.

Good reading, thanks.

But there's that word again, "server".

The forum user's request is for pure P2P communication between phones. 
He's willing to use a third device as a server for sharing IP addresses, 
but for reasons I haven't yet discerned prefers not to use a server for 
actual comms, wants those phone-to-phone.



As a side note, the earlier suggestion that every app that's granted 
permission to make outgoing requests also has privileges to open ports 
for incoming connections kinda freaks me out.  Any suggestions for good 
software on non-rooted phones for monitoring app network activity?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode]

A bit OT but entertaining, apparently one can use an iPhone as a server:

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6804650/ios-devices-as-web-server

I see no point to this, but, you know, people just do things :)

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 20, 2017, at 4:33 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode 
> <use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I use a "stun" server to get the ata(sip client) ip behind NAT. There are
> public stun servers or you can install an open source one on your one
> server.
> 
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdim...@evergreeninfo.net
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
> Of Stephen Barncard via use-livecode
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 4:13 PM
> To: How to use LiveCode
> Cc: Stephen Barncard
> Subject: Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?
> 
> I'm pretty sure SIP servers just  makes introductions to two clients running
> on devices and gets out of the way. A way to keep your IP out of it.
> Also they use UDP packets - MUCH less latency - and does error correction
> (reconstruction?) without re-requesting as HTTP based clients do.
> 
> the 'stuff' to do this has recently been added to the named browsers.
> All the code is there.
> 
> --
> Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
> mixstream.org
> 
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Stephen Barncard wrote:
>> 
>>> Richard:
>>> 
>>> I've been working with with VOIP applications and there are some 
>>> systems that have free methods for finding each other.
>>> 
>>> Check out the Linphone SIP service  (and Linphone itself is pretty
>>> cool)
>> 
>> Thanks.  Isn't Linphone client-server, as opposed to direct P2P?
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Richard Gaskin
>> Fourth World Systems
>> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web  
>> 
>> ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>> 
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RE: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Ralph DiMola via use-livecode]

I use a "stun" server to get the ata(sip client) ip behind NAT. There are
public stun servers or you can install an open source one on your one
server.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Stephen Barncard via use-livecode
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 4:13 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Stephen Barncard
Subject: Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

I'm pretty sure SIP servers just  makes introductions to two clients running
on devices and gets out of the way. A way to keep your IP out of it.
Also they use UDP packets - MUCH less latency - and does error correction
(reconstruction?) without re-requesting as HTTP based clients do.

the 'stuff' to do this has recently been added to the named browsers.
 All the code is there.

--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Stephen Barncard wrote:
>
> > Richard:
> >
> > I've been working with with VOIP applications and there are some 
> > systems that have free methods for finding each other.
> >
> > Check out the Linphone SIP service  (and Linphone itself is pretty
> > cool)
>
> Thanks.  Isn't Linphone client-server, as opposed to direct P2P?
>
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web  
> 
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
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Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 7/20/17 1:44 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

J. Landman Gay wrote:

 > On 7/20/17 11:59 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
 >> On the desktop, most OSes at least provide some means of requiring
 >> explicit admin permission to allow an app to open a TCP port for
 >> listening.
 >>
 >> What restrictions are imposed by iOS and Android for similar
 >> security?
 >
 > On Android, the user must agree to Internet and all other permissions
 > stated in the manifest before download begins if the app is in the
 > Play Store. In newer versions of Android the user has the ability to
 > turn off any permission at any time from within the OS settings.

So that one setting applies to both client and server roles, the ability 
to send requests to servers and also to expose the device to probing 
from the open Internet?




First off, I was wrong about how Android verifies permissions. It lists 
all permissions assigned to the app in a dialog prior to installation, 
so you can cancel or at least be aware of what you might want to turn 
off later. The source of the apk is immaterial, the permissions 
notification is part of the install process.


That said, the internet permission applies to any type of internet 
communication. If it's turned off, the app can neither send nor receive 
internet data; it's my understanding that the OS blocks the connection 
from either side.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Stephen Barncard via use-livecode]

I'm pretty sure SIP servers just  makes introductions to two clients
running on devices and gets out of the way. A way to keep your IP out of it.
Also they use UDP packets - MUCH less latency - and does error correction
(reconstruction?) without re-requesting as HTTP based clients do.

the 'stuff' to do this has recently been added to the named browsers.
 All the code is there.

--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Stephen Barncard wrote:
>
> > Richard:
> >
> > I've been working with with VOIP applications and there are some
> > systems that have free methods for finding each other.
> >
> > Check out the Linphone SIP service  (and Linphone itself is pretty
> > cool)
>
> Thanks.  Isn't Linphone client-server, as opposed to direct P2P?
>
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
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Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Stephen Barncard wrote:

> Richard:
>
> I've been working with with VOIP applications and there are some
> systems that have free methods for finding each other.
>
> Check out the Linphone SIP service  (and Linphone itself is pretty
> cool)

Thanks.  Isn't Linphone client-server, as opposed to direct P2P?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Stephen Barncard via use-livecode]

Richard:

I've been working with with VOIP applications and there are some systems
that have free methods for finding each other.

Check out the Linphone SIP service  (and Linphone itself is pretty cool)

Open Source of course. They use the new stuff in the Opera, Firefox and
Chrome browsers using the Opus codec.

sqb

--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Ralph DiMola wrote:
>
> > Richard wrote:
> >> On the desktop, most OSes at least provide some means of requiring
> >> explicit admin permission to allow an app to open a TCP port for
> >> listening.
> >>
> >> What restrictions are imposed by iOS and Android for similar
> >> security?
> >
> > The only restriction I know of is on iOS. iOS does not allow
> > unencrypted http connections unless you tic the "Disable ATS"
> > in the standalone settings. I know this applies to URLS using
> > the browser control and "put/get url" in scripts but don't know
> > if it also applies to sockets.
> >
> > If the mobile app was to be the server side of sockets how would
> > you connect to it? What would be the URL?
>
> Thanks for the input, Ralph.
>
> I've been pondering P2P-vs-client-server for years, and this morning was
> prompted to learn the implications of attempting P2P on mobile from this
> forum thread:
> 
>
> The user there is proposing a dynamic DNS solution, where each mobile
> device posts its current IP address through a domain-based intermediary.
>
> As popular as DynDNS services are for certain applications, they only
> solve part of the problem.
>
> The biggest challenges (on the desktop at least) involve the complexity
> required of the user to configure port-forwarding in their router's NAS,
> and the (hopefully) complete inability to do that in any business
> environment.  Coupled with an ever-greater awareness of security risks at
> the OS level, deploying TCP listeners in consumer apps seems dodgy at best.
>
> Indeed, many P2P services, like one of the world's most popular, Skype,
> make use of client-server as a fallback. Last I heard most of Skype's
> traffic was using that fallback.
>
> So while I'm disinclined to recommend P2P for anything outside of subnets
> on the desktop, I have to admit ignorance of the implications of attempting
> it on mobile OSes.
>
> I would imagine security would be even stronger, but perhaps mobile OS
> vendors provide clever ways to mitigate the risks.
>
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> ___
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> subscription preferences:
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Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

J. Landman Gay wrote:

> On 7/20/17 11:59 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> On the desktop, most OSes at least provide some means of requiring
>> explicit admin permission to allow an app to open a TCP port for
>> listening.
>>
>> What restrictions are imposed by iOS and Android for similar
>> security?
>
> On Android, the user must agree to Internet and all other permissions
> stated in the manifest before download begins if the app is in the
> Play Store. In newer versions of Android the user has the ability to
> turn off any permission at any time from within the OS settings.

So that one setting applies to both client and server roles, the ability 
to send requests to servers and also to expose the device to probing 
from the open Internet?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Ralph DiMola wrote:

> Richard wrote:
>> On the desktop, most OSes at least provide some means of requiring
>> explicit admin permission to allow an app to open a TCP port for
>> listening.
>>
>> What restrictions are imposed by iOS and Android for similar
>> security?
>
> The only restriction I know of is on iOS. iOS does not allow
> unencrypted http connections unless you tic the "Disable ATS"
> in the standalone settings. I know this applies to URLS using
> the browser control and "put/get url" in scripts but don't know
> if it also applies to sockets.
>
> If the mobile app was to be the server side of sockets how would
> you connect to it? What would be the URL?

Thanks for the input, Ralph.

I've been pondering P2P-vs-client-server for years, and this morning was 
prompted to learn the implications of attempting P2P on mobile from this 
forum thread:



The user there is proposing a dynamic DNS solution, where each mobile 
device posts its current IP address through a domain-based intermediary.


As popular as DynDNS services are for certain applications, they only 
solve part of the problem.


The biggest challenges (on the desktop at least) involve the complexity 
required of the user to configure port-forwarding in their router's NAS, 
and the (hopefully) complete inability to do that in any business 
environment.  Coupled with an ever-greater awareness of security risks 
at the OS level, deploying TCP listeners in consumer apps seems dodgy at 
best.


Indeed, many P2P services, like one of the world's most popular, Skype, 
make use of client-server as a fallback. Last I heard most of Skype's 
traffic was using that fallback.


So while I'm disinclined to recommend P2P for anything outside of 
subnets on the desktop, I have to admit ignorance of the implications of 
attempting it on mobile OSes.


I would imagine security would be even stronger, but perhaps mobile OS 
vendors provide clever ways to mitigate the risks.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 7/20/17 11:59 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
On the desktop, most OSes at least provide some means of requiring 
explicit admin permission to allow an app to open a TCP port for listening.


What restrictions are imposed by iOS and Android for similar security?


On Android, the user must agree to Internet and all other permissions 
stated in the manifest before download begins if the app is in the Play 
Store. In newer versions of Android the user has the ability to turn off 
any permission at any time from within the OS settings.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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RE: Restrictions on mobile servers?

[Ralph DiMola via use-livecode]

The only restriction I know of is on iOS. iOS does not allow unencrypted
http connections unless you tic the "Disable ATS" in the standalone
settings. I know this applies to URLS using the browser control and "put/get
url" in scripts but don't know if it also applies to sockets.

If the mobile app was to be the server side of sockets how would you connect
to it? What would be the URL?
 
Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net

-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 1:00 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Richard Gaskin
Subject: Restrictions on mobile servers?

On the desktop, most OSes at least provide some means of requiring explicit
admin permission to allow an app to open a TCP port for listening.

What restrictions are imposed by iOS and Android for similar security?

In the Android settings for LC's Standalone Builder, does the "Internet" 
permission cover both client and server roles?

That seems a bit broad to me, but in my brief searching this morning I
haven't yet turned up how each mobile OS restricts apps from allowing
connections from the open Internet.

Any guidance on this would be appreciate.

TIA -

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  
  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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