Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Peter Alcibiades via use-livecode]

Thanks for the link, which was very interesting.  There is a quite deep
insight there about what made Hypercard so inviting, and why LC is so
accessible.  Its not just drag and drop, its working directly with the thing
one is making.  Of course you still end up typing a lot of text, but these
systems are a small part of the way to what the people interviewed are
talking about.

I recall a moment many years ago now when the difference between the
ordinary user's understanding and the coder's suddenly became apparent.  In
the early days of the Web we did a demo for a senior manager of a new
interface.  He had never used a computer - as was quite common back in those
days.  He heard about it with some puzzlement and then asked us to print it
out.  We looked at each other and you could see everyone wondering how on
earth they were going to explain that this just wasn't possible...  That
whatever we handed over on set of A4s was not going to be what we were
talking about.



--
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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 10/05/2017 09:32 AM, Heather Laine via use-livecode wrote:


I think probably the time has come to end this admittedly entertaining thread.


Thanks, Heather.
Time to put this one to bed.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

The moon is a myth. ;-)

Bob S


> On Oct 5, 2017, at 14:29 , Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 10/05/2017 09:26 AM, Rick Harrison via use-livecode wrote:
>> Hi Roger,
>> They failed to mention LiveCode though, which was disappointing.
>> If anyone writes a software package with LiveCode so that we
>> can duplicate the laser reflector experiment, let me know! ;-)
> 
> Yeah. That would be bitchin'.
> ...long as we don't blow up the moon.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftw...@gmail.com


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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 10/05/2017 09:26 AM, Rick Harrison via use-livecode wrote:

Hi Roger,

They failed to mention LiveCode though, which was disappointing.
If anyone writes a software package with LiveCode so that we
can duplicate the laser reflector experiment, let me know! ;-)


Yeah. That would be bitchin'.
...long as we don't blow up the moon.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Heather Laine via use-livecode]

You called Jerry? 

I think probably the time has come to end this admittedly entertaining thread. 
I think I need to add "conspiracy theories" to the banned topic list for this 
list, which may I remind you all includes Politics, Religion and Cheese.

Move along please folks, lets take it back to LiveCode :)

Regards,

Heather

Heather Laine
Customer Services Manager
LiveCode Ltd
www.livecode.com



> On 4 Oct 2017, at 00:55, Jerry Jensen via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> It would really enhance my LiveCode email group experience if I could STOP 
> reading about the fake moon landing and vaccines.
> 
> Besides, the moon is made of green CHEESE !!
> 
> .Jerry
> 
>> On Oct 3, 2017, at 2:21 PM, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I am well up on the argument of secrecy and that article -  falls down in
>> the first few paragraphs with the vaccines - you probably haven't heard of
>> the whistleblowers - Gus Grissom comes to mind
>> 
>> http://info.cmsri.org/the-driven-researcher-blog/link-between-vaccines-and-african-american-boys-hidden-by-cdc-says-whistleblower
>> http://avoiceforchoice.org/cdcwhistleblower/
>> 
>> But ignorance here cost lives the Moon Hoax doesn't.
>> 
>> I'll give you the short reason why it was faked then give you a few links
>> you have probably not seen and a few questions - i've seen all the
>> "evidence"  most of it is, we've seen the moon rock, or we saw the pictures
>> on TV and that's it even Mythbusters used the simplest strawman argument.
>> 
>> 
>> Here are the Astronauts in the post "landing"  press conference
>> 
>> They are so elated looking at each other to see if tghey are puttijng a
>> foot wrong - wait for
>> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RcKLAo62Ro
>> 
>> This is a classic 52 seconds
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyjppxh2-C0
>> 
>> Armstrong is asked if he ever saw stars from the surface of the moon...
>> Collins answers" I dont remember seeing any". Collins was never on the
>> surface of the moonhe was allegedly "orbiting" the moon, it was not his
>> question to answer.
>> 
>> It was basically done because America lost face with SputnK - the Cold war
>> was going on - I don't doubt Kennedy believed they could do it when he made
>> that speech.
>> 
>> They could'nt so a "FEW" top people got together - remember this is for
>> your country - all the astronauts were military men. You farm it out to
>> many companies - so everythingh is on a need to know. You give $40 billion
>> dollars - we can't do it but we can fake it for $2 billion thank you very
>> much.
>> 
>> Most of the workers at NASAgenuinely believed it - I sure did and I wasn't
>> involved in helping out.
>> 
>> Now here is the BEST 9 minute video which shows you NASA people *admitting*
>> they don't know how they did it in 1969.
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpPMoIv1lxI=22s
>> 
>> 
>> I have more questions and other anomalies not in here but that's for
>> another day.
>> 
>> 
>> This video from 3:22 onwards shows that they have also faked certain
>> Shuttle exercises. Here the shuttle is "in space" with a man's face in view
>> for about 5 seconds is priceless - Gerry Anderson would be proud
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9i8tMzxIn0=1=254s=FL0uijsHtSIJz8eE6CrUECIw
>> 
>> Don't get me wrong they have sent shuttles up in Space (but never higher
>> than 400 Miles) , but some of the stuff they say they did with it are
>> models - tell me I'm wrong but watch the video first
>> 
>> 
>> If you want my take on the secrecy issue I might expand - "A man convinced
>> against his will is of the same opinion still".
>> 
>> Regards Lagi
>> 
>> 
>> p.s
>> 
>> If nothing else just listen to the 13 seconds here at 5:43
>> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpPMoIv1lxI=22s
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 3 October 2017 at 21:17, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Nice article, but his example of the Snowden revelations actually proves
>>> my point.
>>> 
>>> Bob S
>>> 
>>> 
 On Oct 3, 2017, at 12:20 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
 
 Bob Sneidar wrote:
 
> Well then the REAL miracle to the moon launch is how Nasa either
> deceived the thousands of people who worked on the project, and keeps
> them deceived to this day, or else were able to keep all those
> thousands of people from talking or writing a book.
 
 Arithmetically unlikely:
 
 https://phys.org/news/2016-01-equation-large-scale-
>>> conspiracies-quickly-reveal.html
 
 --
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> use-livecode mailing list
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>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription 

Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Rick Harrison via use-livecode]

Hi Roger,

They failed to mention LiveCode though, which was disappointing.
If anyone writes a software package with LiveCode so that we
can duplicate the laser reflector experiment, let me know! ;-)

Thanks for sharing!

Rick

> On Oct 5, 2017, at 6:31 AM, Roger Eller via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Sitcom version of the laser reflector experiment (on "The Big Bang
> Theory").  :-)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL1OATdBoY8
> 


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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Roger Eller via use-livecode]

Sitcom version of the laser reflector experiment (on "The Big Bang
Theory").  :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL1OATdBoY8


On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 7:18 PM, Rick Harrison via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi Lagi,
>
> The Apollo Astronauts left “Laser Reflectors” on the moon so that
> we could very accurately measure the distance between the Earth
> and the Moon.
>
> If you get the right equipment you too can do this experiment.
> The reflectors are still there on the moon right where they left them.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Laser_Ranging_
> experiment#/media/File:ALSEP_AS14-67-9386.jpg  wiki/Lunar_Laser_Ranging_experiment#/media/File:ALSEP_AS14-67-9386.jpg>
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Rick
>
> P.S. Maybe Astronauts in the far future will be able to write programs on
> the fly with future LiveCode!
>
>
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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Actually, since we weren't able to get there, we had to give them to the aliens 
who were running the CIA at the time, and they dropped them off. That way we 
can maintain the deception pretty convincingly. 

Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2017, at 16:18 , Rick Harrison via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Lagi,
> 
> The Apollo Astronauts left “Laser Reflectors” on the moon so that
> we could very accurately measure the distance between the Earth
> and the Moon.
> 
> If you get the right equipment you too can do this experiment.
> The reflectors are still there on the moon right where they left them.

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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Rick Harrison via use-livecode]

Hi Lagi,

The Apollo Astronauts left “Laser Reflectors” on the moon so that
we could very accurately measure the distance between the Earth
and the Moon.

If you get the right equipment you too can do this experiment.
The reflectors are still there on the moon right where they left them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Laser_Ranging_experiment#/media/File:ALSEP_AS14-67-9386.jpg
 


Enjoy,

Rick

P.S. Maybe Astronauts in the far future will be able to write programs on the 
fly with future LiveCode!



> On Oct 3, 2017, at 5:21 PM, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I am well up on the argument of secrecy and that article -  falls down in
> the first few paragraphs with the vaccines - you probably haven't heard of
> the whistleblowers - Gus Grissom comes to mind
> 
> http://info.cmsri.org/the-driven-researcher-blog/link-between-vaccines-and-african-american-boys-hidden-by-cdc-says-whistleblower
> http://avoiceforchoice.org/cdcwhistleblower/
> 
> But ignorance here cost lives the Moon Hoax doesn't.
> 
> I'll give you the short reason why it was faked then give you a few links
> you have probably not seen and a few questions - i've seen all the
> "evidence"  most of it is, we've seen the moon rock, or we saw the pictures
> on TV and that's it even Mythbusters used the simplest strawman argument.
> 
> 
> Here are the Astronauts in the post "landing"  press conference
> 
> They are so elated looking at each other to see if tghey are puttijng a
> foot wrong - wait for
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RcKLAo62Ro
> 
> This is a classic 52 seconds
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyjppxh2-C0
> 
> Armstrong is asked if he ever saw stars from the surface of the moon...
> Collins answers" I dont remember seeing any". Collins was never on the
> surface of the moonhe was allegedly "orbiting" the moon, it was not his
> question to answer.
> 
> It was basically done because America lost face with SputnK - the Cold war
> was going on - I don't doubt Kennedy believed they could do it when he made
> that speech.
> 
> They could'nt so a "FEW" top people got together - remember this is for
> your country - all the astronauts were military men. You farm it out to
> many companies - so everythingh is on a need to know. You give $40 billion
> dollars - we can't do it but we can fake it for $2 billion thank you very
> much.
> 
> Most of the workers at NASAgenuinely believed it - I sure did and I wasn't
> involved in helping out.
> 
> Now here is the BEST 9 minute video which shows you NASA people *admitting*
> they don't know how they did it in 1969.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpPMoIv1lxI=22s
> 
> 
> I have more questions and other anomalies not in here but that's for
> another day.
> 
> 
> This video from 3:22 onwards shows that they have also faked certain
> Shuttle exercises. Here the shuttle is "in space" with a man's face in view
> for about 5 seconds is priceless - Gerry Anderson would be proud
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9i8tMzxIn0=1=254s=FL0uijsHtSIJz8eE6CrUECIw
> 
> Don't get me wrong they have sent shuttles up in Space (but never higher
> than 400 Miles) , but some of the stuff they say they did with it are
> models - tell me I'm wrong but watch the video first
> 
> 
> If you want my take on the secrecy issue I might expand - "A man convinced
> against his will is of the same opinion still".
> 
> Regards Lagi
> 
> 
> p.s
> 
> If nothing else just listen to the 13 seconds here at 5:43
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpPMoIv1lxI=22s
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 3 October 2017 at 21:17, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Nice article, but his example of the Snowden revelations actually proves
>> my point.
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 3, 2017, at 12:20 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Bob Sneidar wrote:
>>> 
 Well then the REAL miracle to the moon launch is how Nasa either
 deceived the thousands of people who worked on the project, and keeps
 them deceived to this day, or else were able to keep all those
 thousands of people from talking or writing a book.
>>> 
>>> Arithmetically unlikely:
>>> 
>>> https://phys.org/news/2016-01-equation-large-scale-
>> conspiracies-quickly-reveal.html
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Richard Gaskin
>>> Fourth World Systems
>>> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> use-livecode mailing list
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>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Knowledge is not the only thing one can hold opinions about: anything 
subjective such as ethics or

aesthetics . . .

Richmond.

On 10/4/17 8:45 pm, Phil Davis via use-livecode wrote:
Except people will always want what they want. As I understand it, 
that drives disagreements far more than the absence/presence of 
knowledge. (James 4:1 )


Sorry, I couldn't resist... I just HAD to respond to your 
tongue-in-cheek comment...

Guess that makes me the poster child of what I just said. :-)

Phil Davis


On 10/4/17 10:10 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
To which I will add as a side note, once we know everything, there 
will be no more opinions or opposing views. :-)


Bob S


On Oct 4, 2017, at 09:12 , Jim Lambert via use-livecode 
 wrote:



Richmond wrote:

once a system constructed by humans reaches a certain level of 
complexity
those humans are unable to predict how it will behave in certain 
circumstances.
And sometimes we’re unable to explain WHY a system behaved as it 
did, which is increasingly common with certain AI and cognitive 
computing systems.


Jim Lambert

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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Well, in that case I sincerely hope we never know everything.

Although, how, without our finite brains/minds we would manage that 
escapes me entirely.


Richmond.

On 10/4/17 8:10 pm, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

To which I will add as a side note, once we know everything, there will be no 
more opinions or opposing views. :-)

Bob S



On Oct 4, 2017, at 09:12 , Jim Lambert via use-livecode 
 wrote:


Richmond wrote:

once a system constructed by humans reaches a certain level of complexity
those humans are unable to predict how it will behave in certain circumstances.

And sometimes we’re unable to explain WHY a system behaved as it did, which is 
increasingly common with certain AI and cognitive computing systems.

Jim Lambert

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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Phil Davis via use-livecode]

Except people will always want what they want. As I understand it, that 
drives disagreements far more than the absence/presence of knowledge. 
(James 4:1 )


Sorry, I couldn't resist... I just HAD to respond to your 
tongue-in-cheek comment...

Guess that makes me the poster child of what I just said. :-)

Phil Davis


On 10/4/17 10:10 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

To which I will add as a side note, once we know everything, there will be no 
more opinions or opposing views. :-)

Bob S



On Oct 4, 2017, at 09:12 , Jim Lambert via use-livecode 
 wrote:


Richmond wrote:

once a system constructed by humans reaches a certain level of complexity
those humans are unable to predict how it will behave in certain circumstances.

And sometimes we’re unable to explain WHY a system behaved as it did, which is 
increasingly common with certain AI and cognitive computing systems.

Jim Lambert

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--
Phil Davis

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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

To which I will add as a side note, once we know everything, there will be no 
more opinions or opposing views. :-)

Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2017, at 09:12 , Jim Lambert via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>> Richmond wrote:
>> 
>> once a system constructed by humans reaches a certain level of complexity
>> those humans are unable to predict how it will behave in certain 
>> circumstances.
> 
> And sometimes we’re unable to explain WHY a system behaved as it did, which 
> is increasingly common with certain AI and cognitive computing systems.
> 
> Jim Lambert

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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Jim Lambert via use-livecode]

> Richmond wrote:
> 
> once a system constructed by humans reaches a certain level of complexity
> those humans are unable to predict how it will behave in certain 
> circumstances.

And sometimes we’re unable to explain WHY a system behaved as it did, which is 
increasingly common with certain AI and cognitive computing systems.

Jim Lambert

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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Why do I have a feeling that once a system constructed by humans reaches 
a certain level of complexity
those humans are unable to predict how it will behave in certain 
circumstances.


We humans have, largely got ourself in trouble by starting to think we 
can explain everything,

and I have a vision of a God laughing his/her socks off at our hubris.

One of the kids I was teaching programming in the Summer pointed at a 
metal box connected to a monitor, a keyboard

and a mouse and asked, "What happens inside that?"

To which I replied, "Magic."

This answer was a bit too honest for the poor boy to cope with as he has 
been brought up as a naive realist.


Richmond.

On 10/4/17 2:42 am, Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode wrote:

Ralph wrote:

This is possible because all current consumer OSs
have the same problems outlined in the article.

Deep truth, but... Are you sure that hardware is not to blame
for many of these unexplained bugs?

Intermittent hardware failures, due to faulty soldering or
overheating (etc...) are uncommon but possible...

  Al
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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

"magical unicorns crapped the world into existence."

But they did: where have you been recently?

Just as LiveCode 8.1.6 just spontaneously appeared without

Homo Africanus (HyperCard), Home Erectus (Metacard) and
a lot of subsequent depilation.

Richmond.

On 10/3/17 10:06 pm, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

Well then the REAL miracle to the moon launch is how Nasa either deceived the 
thousands of people who worked on the project, and keeps them deceived to this 
day, or else were able to keep all those thousands of people from talking or 
writing a book.

You see, conspiracies must by nature be extremely limited in participation and scope, 
otherwise it becomes compromised pretty quickly. Even the CIA doesn't expect to keep 
secrets forever. But if you don't think about all the individual people that have to 
spend their entire lives keeping a lie secret, and instead imagine this single minded 
boogie man called "the government" then you don't have to be bothered about 
that glaring miscalculation.

Believing that all those workers were "in on it" or else massively deceived 
during the whole process is so much more incredibly fantastic, that I would really rather 
believe that magical unicorns crapped the world into existence.
  


Bob S



On Oct 3, 2017, at 07:31 , Lagi Pittas via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Anyway I'm with Richard Feynman so  "I don't care what other people think"
I'm 99.99% certain we didn't go yo the moon- you can only be 100% sure
that you exist. I only came to this conclusion in the 90's even though the
evidence was overwhelming then, but it keeps piling up. This is coming from
someone who remembers EXACTLY where he was and what he was eating and
drinking when Neil Armstrong was getting his lines wrong. It was Milk  and
a Blue Riband biscuit. It took me a LOOOooong time to acknowledge I had
been lied to but sometimes you have to admit it.


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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

"because dead programmers don't write good code."

More to the point, Astronauts (c.f. end-users) usually don't know how to 
write code at all.


Richmond.

On 10/3/17 9:59 pm, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

No, I am sure we put men on the moon. But we didn't stay there and there are no plans to 
actually colonize it. And the resources just to do that were "astronomical" 
(pardon the pun). There was of cource some redundancy, but some things cannot be 
repaired, as we learned with Apollo 13. Oh we patched it up enough to get them back, but 
they almost didn't make it even then, and all they had to do really was slingshot around 
the moon and get back.

Imagine now you are hurtling towards your next stop, Mars, and something 
serious goes bad. How do you repair it? If you can't, how do you turn around? 
You cannot exactly make a right turn at the speeds you are going, and there are 
no planetary bodies to slingshot around. You have to burn an inordinate amount 
of fuel to stop, then turn around, then burn an extraordinary amount of fuel to 
get back, and the Earth isn't standing still during all this. Did you bring the 
fuel to do that?

The hardware alone for that kind of space travel would make the moon launch 
look like a paper airplane. And the software for such a trip had better damn 
well be bug proof, because dead programmers don't write good code.

Bob S



On Oct 3, 2017, at 07:31 , Lagi Pittas via use-livecode 
 wrote:

And since you brought it up  what are are you saying? We have gone  to the
Moon or Not, or that programming and engineering is too complex to do
create the particular software system that Bret Victor envisages?


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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Alejandro Tejada wrote:

> Richard Gaskin wrote:
>> They're still undocumented, designed for IDE use
>> and subject to change.
>
> Ok, that explains why Google could not find
> any information about this.
>
> Maybe this info could help developers that are having
> trouble with their mobile apps. Could we save our log
> files and sent them automatically to the app developer
> in a mobile app? That could be really helpful.
> Really helpful.

Logging in general can be useful.

Logging every handler that gets triggered throughout a session less so.

Big logs, performance impairment, only useful if the log gets to the 
developer (and even then sifting through it can be a bear).


Lean usage logs can be good, though.

I tend to use messageMessages logging only when I have a problem I can't 
diagnose through other means.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode]

Richard Gaskin wrote:
> They're still undocumented, designed for IDE use
> and subject to change.

Ok, that explains why Google could not find
any information about this.

Maybe this info could help developers that are having
trouble with their mobile apps. Could we save our log
files and sent them automatically to the app developer
in a mobile app? That could be really helpful.
Really helpful.

Al
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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Alejandro Tejada wrote:

> Richard Gaskin wrote:
>> I've found logging useful.  Turn on the messageMessages
>> and write all messageHandled messages to a file with the
>> executionContexts - verbose, but when information is lacking
>> better to have too much than too little.
>
> Great to know! Thanks for this information.
> Where could I find more details about messageHandled
> and messageMessage? Google found nothing
> about these LiveCode messages.

They're still undocumented, designed for IDE use and subject to change.

The messageMessages is a global property which governs whether 
messageHandled and messageNotHandled messages are sent.  False by 
default, setting it to true causes the engine to send those messages.


A messageHandled message is sent when any message is handled. Check its 
params to see what comes with it - not much, but enough to trigger logging.


I've never used messageNotHandled, but presumably it's sent when a 
message is fired and nothing in the message path handles it.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Jerry Jensen via use-livecode]

It would really enhance my LiveCode email group experience if I could STOP 
reading about the fake moon landing and vaccines.

Besides, the moon is made of green CHEESE !!

.Jerry

> On Oct 3, 2017, at 2:21 PM, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I am well up on the argument of secrecy and that article -  falls down in
> the first few paragraphs with the vaccines - you probably haven't heard of
> the whistleblowers - Gus Grissom comes to mind
> 
> http://info.cmsri.org/the-driven-researcher-blog/link-between-vaccines-and-african-american-boys-hidden-by-cdc-says-whistleblower
> http://avoiceforchoice.org/cdcwhistleblower/
> 
> But ignorance here cost lives the Moon Hoax doesn't.
> 
> I'll give you the short reason why it was faked then give you a few links
> you have probably not seen and a few questions - i've seen all the
> "evidence"  most of it is, we've seen the moon rock, or we saw the pictures
> on TV and that's it even Mythbusters used the simplest strawman argument.
> 
> 
> Here are the Astronauts in the post "landing"  press conference
> 
> They are so elated looking at each other to see if tghey are puttijng a
> foot wrong - wait for
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RcKLAo62Ro
> 
> This is a classic 52 seconds
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyjppxh2-C0
> 
> Armstrong is asked if he ever saw stars from the surface of the moon...
> Collins answers" I dont remember seeing any". Collins was never on the
> surface of the moonhe was allegedly "orbiting" the moon, it was not his
> question to answer.
> 
> It was basically done because America lost face with SputnK - the Cold war
> was going on - I don't doubt Kennedy believed they could do it when he made
> that speech.
> 
> They could'nt so a "FEW" top people got together - remember this is for
> your country - all the astronauts were military men. You farm it out to
> many companies - so everythingh is on a need to know. You give $40 billion
> dollars - we can't do it but we can fake it for $2 billion thank you very
> much.
> 
> Most of the workers at NASAgenuinely believed it - I sure did and I wasn't
> involved in helping out.
> 
> Now here is the BEST 9 minute video which shows you NASA people *admitting*
> they don't know how they did it in 1969.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpPMoIv1lxI=22s
> 
> 
> I have more questions and other anomalies not in here but that's for
> another day.
> 
> 
> This video from 3:22 onwards shows that they have also faked certain
> Shuttle exercises. Here the shuttle is "in space" with a man's face in view
> for about 5 seconds is priceless - Gerry Anderson would be proud
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9i8tMzxIn0=1=254s=FL0uijsHtSIJz8eE6CrUECIw
> 
> Don't get me wrong they have sent shuttles up in Space (but never higher
> than 400 Miles) , but some of the stuff they say they did with it are
> models - tell me I'm wrong but watch the video first
> 
> 
> If you want my take on the secrecy issue I might expand - "A man convinced
> against his will is of the same opinion still".
> 
> Regards Lagi
> 
> 
> p.s
> 
> If nothing else just listen to the 13 seconds here at 5:43
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpPMoIv1lxI=22s
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 3 October 2017 at 21:17, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Nice article, but his example of the Snowden revelations actually proves
>> my point.
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 3, 2017, at 12:20 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Bob Sneidar wrote:
>>> 
 Well then the REAL miracle to the moon launch is how Nasa either
 deceived the thousands of people who worked on the project, and keeps
 them deceived to this day, or else were able to keep all those
 thousands of people from talking or writing a book.
>>> 
>>> Arithmetically unlikely:
>>> 
>>> https://phys.org/news/2016-01-equation-large-scale-
>> conspiracies-quickly-reveal.html
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Richard Gaskin
>>> Fourth World Systems
>>> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode]

Hi Richard,

Richard Gaskin wrote:
> I've found logging useful.  Turn on the messageMessages
> and write all messageHandled messages to a file with the
> executionContexts - verbose, but when information is lacking
> better to have too much than too little.

Great to know! Thanks for this information.
Where could I find more details about messageHandled
and messageMessage? Google found nothing
about these LiveCode messages.

Al
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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

The simplest of strawman arguements. :-)

Bob S


> On Oct 3, 2017, at 14:21 , Lagi Pittas via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> If you want my take on the secrecy issue I might expand - "A man convinced
> against his will is of the same opinion still".
> 
> Regards Lagi


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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Lagi Pittas via use-livecode]

Hi,

I am well up on the argument of secrecy and that article -  falls down in
the first few paragraphs with the vaccines - you probably haven't heard of
the whistleblowers - Gus Grissom comes to mind

http://info.cmsri.org/the-driven-researcher-blog/link-between-vaccines-and-african-american-boys-hidden-by-cdc-says-whistleblower
http://avoiceforchoice.org/cdcwhistleblower/

But ignorance here cost lives the Moon Hoax doesn't.

I'll give you the short reason why it was faked then give you a few links
you have probably not seen and a few questions - i've seen all the
"evidence"  most of it is, we've seen the moon rock, or we saw the pictures
on TV and that's it even Mythbusters used the simplest strawman argument.


Here are the Astronauts in the post "landing"  press conference

They are so elated looking at each other to see if tghey are puttijng a
foot wrong - wait for

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RcKLAo62Ro

This is a classic 52 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyjppxh2-C0

Armstrong is asked if he ever saw stars from the surface of the moon...
Collins answers" I dont remember seeing any". Collins was never on the
surface of the moonhe was allegedly "orbiting" the moon, it was not his
question to answer.

It was basically done because America lost face with SputnK - the Cold war
was going on - I don't doubt Kennedy believed they could do it when he made
that speech.

They could'nt so a "FEW" top people got together - remember this is for
your country - all the astronauts were military men. You farm it out to
many companies - so everythingh is on a need to know. You give $40 billion
dollars - we can't do it but we can fake it for $2 billion thank you very
much.

Most of the workers at NASAgenuinely believed it - I sure did and I wasn't
involved in helping out.

Now here is the BEST 9 minute video which shows you NASA people *admitting*
they don't know how they did it in 1969.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpPMoIv1lxI=22s


I have more questions and other anomalies not in here but that's for
another day.


This video from 3:22 onwards shows that they have also faked certain
Shuttle exercises. Here the shuttle is "in space" with a man's face in view
for about 5 seconds is priceless - Gerry Anderson would be proud
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9i8tMzxIn0=1=254s=FL0uijsHtSIJz8eE6CrUECIw

Don't get me wrong they have sent shuttles up in Space (but never higher
than 400 Miles) , but some of the stuff they say they did with it are
models - tell me I'm wrong but watch the video first


If you want my take on the secrecy issue I might expand - "A man convinced
against his will is of the same opinion still".

Regards Lagi


p.s

If nothing else just listen to the 13 seconds here at 5:43

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpPMoIv1lxI=22s











On 3 October 2017 at 21:17, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Nice article, but his example of the Snowden revelations actually proves
> my point.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Oct 3, 2017, at 12:20 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Bob Sneidar wrote:
> >
> > > Well then the REAL miracle to the moon launch is how Nasa either
> > > deceived the thousands of people who worked on the project, and keeps
> > > them deceived to this day, or else were able to keep all those
> > > thousands of people from talking or writing a book.
> >
> > Arithmetically unlikely:
> >
> > https://phys.org/news/2016-01-equation-large-scale-
> conspiracies-quickly-reveal.html
> >
> > --
> > Richard Gaskin
> > Fourth World Systems
> > Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>
>
> ___
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Yes, it very much supports your point.

What tickled me about it was his attempt to quantify the challenge of 
keeping a large-scale conspiracy under wraps.


Personally, I wouldn't have chosen the Snowden story as the baseline; 
too much still unknown and relatively little corroborated.  Iran-Contra 
seems a better case, given the wealth of documentation complete enough 
to have led to multiple convictions.


Bringing this back OT. maybe there's an app that needs to be made:

Enter the date the conspiracy is said to have taken place, an estimate 
of the maximum number of people likely to know about it, and then it 
would crunch the numbers to estimate the likelihood that the described 
event actually managed to remain a secret all this time.


:)

--
 Richard Gaskin


Bob Sneidar wrote:
> Nice article, but his example of the Snowden revelations actually
> proves my point.
>
> Bob S
>
>
>> On Oct 3, 2017, at 12:20 , Richard Gaskin wrote:
>>
>> Bob Sneidar wrote:
>>
>> > Well then the REAL miracle to the moon launch is how Nasa either
>> > deceived the thousands of people who worked on the project, and
>> > keeps them deceived to this day, or else were able to keep all
>> > those thousands of people from talking or writing a book.
>>
>> Arithmetically unlikely:
>>
>> 
https://phys.org/news/2016-01-equation-large-scale-conspiracies-quickly-reveal.html

>>
>> --



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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Nice article, but his example of the Snowden revelations actually proves my 
point. 

Bob S


> On Oct 3, 2017, at 12:20 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Bob Sneidar wrote:
> 
> > Well then the REAL miracle to the moon launch is how Nasa either
> > deceived the thousands of people who worked on the project, and keeps
> > them deceived to this day, or else were able to keep all those
> > thousands of people from talking or writing a book.
> 
> Arithmetically unlikely:
> 
> https://phys.org/news/2016-01-equation-large-scale-conspiracies-quickly-reveal.html
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web


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RE: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Ralph DiMola via use-livecode]

>For many years, we have seen in this mail list (and previous mail list) how
developers are completely baffled by applications that run fine in most
computers, but fail >consistently in a very few machines. Check the
archives. You will find many instances of this scenario. How it is that
possible at all?

This is possible because all current consumer OSs have the same problems
outlined in the article.

I don't usually pontificate on this list but...
As humans we constantly overreach without thinking. As Jeff Goldblum
said in Jurassic Park said "Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether
they could they didn't stop to think if they should."
This is the story with all consumer OSs. Just because these rudimentary OSs
in the 90s could somewhat be a tool for the average Joe no one stopped to
think if they should. We have allowed PC OSs/mobile devices and most
pointedly the Internet to become the lynch-pins of modern society, also
because of the "Jeff Goldblum" theorem. Look at Puerto Rico if want proof.
Just because they could build cell towers in PR... As Claude Rains said in
Casablanca "I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling in going on in here"
A cat 4 hit PR in 1932 and when I heard that 1,360 out of 1,600 of PR's
Cells towers were either damaged or blown over by cat 4 Irma and folks were
panicking with no internet/access to credit card processing and the FakeBook
I said to myself "I'm shocked that a cat 4 hit PR". I feel sorry for the
human suffering and the government let this happen but I'm not surprised.
Wait till a CME(Carrington event 1859) or EMP(rocket man) wipes out the
electrical grid and internet for a billion or so people for a year... I'll
be sitting with my gravity fed water well water and rifle across my lap
saying "I'm shocked that"


Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net


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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Bob Sneidar wrote:

> Well then the REAL miracle to the moon launch is how Nasa either
> deceived the thousands of people who worked on the project, and keeps
> them deceived to this day, or else were able to keep all those
> thousands of people from talking or writing a book.

Arithmetically unlikely:

https://phys.org/news/2016-01-equation-large-scale-conspiracies-quickly-reveal.html

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Well then the REAL miracle to the moon launch is how Nasa either deceived the 
thousands of people who worked on the project, and keeps them deceived to this 
day, or else were able to keep all those thousands of people from talking or 
writing a book. 

You see, conspiracies must by nature be extremely limited in participation and 
scope, otherwise it becomes compromised pretty quickly. Even the CIA doesn't 
expect to keep secrets forever. But if you don't think about all the individual 
people that have to spend their entire lives keeping a lie secret, and instead 
imagine this single minded boogie man called "the government" then you don't 
have to be bothered about that glaring miscalculation. 

Believing that all those workers were "in on it" or else massively deceived 
during the whole process is so much more incredibly fantastic, that I would 
really rather believe that magical unicorns crapped the world into existence. 

Bob S


> On Oct 3, 2017, at 07:31 , Lagi Pittas via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Anyway I'm with Richard Feynman so  "I don't care what other people think"
> I'm 99.99% certain we didn't go yo the moon- you can only be 100% sure
> that you exist. I only came to this conclusion in the 90's even though the
> evidence was overwhelming then, but it keeps piling up. This is coming from
> someone who remembers EXACTLY where he was and what he was eating and
> drinking when Neil Armstrong was getting his lines wrong. It was Milk  and
> a Blue Riband biscuit. It took me a LOOOooong time to acknowledge I had
> been lied to but sometimes you have to admit it.


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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

No, I am sure we put men on the moon. But we didn't stay there and there are no 
plans to actually colonize it. And the resources just to do that were 
"astronomical" (pardon the pun). There was of cource some redundancy, but some 
things cannot be repaired, as we learned with Apollo 13. Oh we patched it up 
enough to get them back, but they almost didn't make it even then, and all they 
had to do really was slingshot around the moon and get back. 

Imagine now you are hurtling towards your next stop, Mars, and something 
serious goes bad. How do you repair it? If you can't, how do you turn around? 
You cannot exactly make a right turn at the speeds you are going, and there are 
no planetary bodies to slingshot around. You have to burn an inordinate amount 
of fuel to stop, then turn around, then burn an extraordinary amount of fuel to 
get back, and the Earth isn't standing still during all this. Did you bring the 
fuel to do that? 

The hardware alone for that kind of space travel would make the moon launch 
look like a paper airplane. And the software for such a trip had better damn 
well be bug proof, because dead programmers don't write good code. 

Bob S


> On Oct 3, 2017, at 07:31 , Lagi Pittas via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> And since you brought it up  what are are you saying? We have gone  to the
> Moon or Not, or that programming and engineering is too complex to do
> create the particular software system that Bret Victor envisages?


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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Alejandro Tejada wrote:
> Does exists a programming tool that provides the developer
> with a complete (but optional) battery of tests that run while
> opening the application or on user request after the application
> is opened?

I've found logging useful.  Turn on the messageMessages and write all 
messageHandled messages to a file with the executionContexts - verbose, 
but when information is lacking better to have too much than too little.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Lagi Pittas via use-livecode]

Hi Bob

That's why I said the Function part would be good - basically a LIVE
interactive debugger - the coding to do all the rest in a REAL programming
language rather than an animation studio or a testbed is way out of my
league - But given time and money anything is possible  Except ..

And since you brought it up  what are are you saying? We have gone  to the
Moon or Not, or that programming and engineering is too complex to do
create the particular software system that Bret Victor envisages?

Anyway I'm with Richard Feynman so  "I don't care what other people think"
I'm 99.99% certain we didn't go yo the moon- you can only be 100% sure
that you exist. I only came to this conclusion in the 90's even though the
evidence was overwhelming then, but it keeps piling up. This is coming from
someone who remembers EXACTLY where he was and what he was eating and
drinking when Neil Armstrong was getting his lines wrong. It was Milk  and
a Blue Riband biscuit. It took me a LOOOooong time to acknowledge I had
been lied to but sometimes you have to admit it.

I say the above knowing many will call me an idiot and such but the people
on this board are "Smarter than the average Bear" and would hope that they
assume that when I say this, it is  not by looking at one side, but looking
at all sides even giving the benefit of the doubt in some cases. But giving
the benefit of the doubt on more than 10 or 15 anomalies stretches
Cognitive Dissonance to the limit.

If this is not the place for a discussion how about we take it to the off
topic area in the forum - if nothing else it might bring in the "crazies"
to find Livecode when searching for info about Apollo;-)

 - but i would prefer discourse - I am still open minded. --
.001%


Lagi

On 2 October 2017 at 15:51, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> This article is exactly why I contend that man can never travel to other
> planets never mind solar systems, and colonize them. The complexity of
> something so vast as to be able to get us there would be failing all the
> time, and we would have to be able to anticipate those failures, and take
> repair parts several times more tham we predict we might need "just to be
> safe". Then you get out there, some code that runs the life support starts
> shutting it down, and the guy who wrote the code is back on planet earth
> too far away to communicate with. No one on earth would ever know how they
> all died.
>
> No my friends and fellow man, we are made of the earth, for the earth.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Sep 30, 2017, at 10:31 , Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Long read, but worth the effort:
> >
> > https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/09/
> saving-the-world-from-code/540393/
> >
> > --
> > Mark Wieder
> > ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> >
> > ___
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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

This article is exactly why I contend that man can never travel to other 
planets never mind solar systems, and colonize them. The complexity of 
something so vast as to be able to get us there would be failing all the time, 
and we would have to be able to anticipate those failures, and take repair 
parts several times more tham we predict we might need "just to be safe". Then 
you get out there, some code that runs the life support starts shutting it 
down, and the guy who wrote the code is back on planet earth too far away to 
communicate with. No one on earth would ever know how they all died. 

No my friends and fellow man, we are made of the earth, for the earth. 

Bob S


> On Sep 30, 2017, at 10:31 , Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Long read, but worth the effort:
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/09/saving-the-world-from-code/540393/
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> 
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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Lagi Pittas via use-livecode]

I posted a link to Bret Victor in may (and forgot the link like Mark).
I thought there would be more feedback but the only one was a request by
Richmond for the link.

I didn't expand on this - but my reasoning is that we are partly there and
as Herman suggests using LCB certain of the "algorithm design" methods
could be scripted, (by better men than me .. Mark, Ali, Monte - i'm looking
at you).

Chris Granger an ex Microsoftie was inspired by the talk  and created a
kickstarter for LIGHTTABLE which was to be something like Bret Victor's
concepts. The aim was $200,000 he got $360,000. The initial version was
based on the Closure language but they then added Python and JS because of
popularity. He then Open sourced it at version 0.6 and I think it is
basically dead - Nice work if you can get it.

There is pent up demand for something like it - Apples Playground for swift
goes much of the  way but Swift ain't Livecode.

Just the implementation of the Binary search Functionality would be a
brilliant first step for debugging logic in our functions or procedures -
the animation could come afterwards but HHs suggestion could be food for
thought.

Regards L:agi



OOPS!!
https://vimeo.com/36579366

On 25 May 2017 at 12:33, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode>> wrote:

>* Can you post the URL to that video, please?
*>>* Richmond.
*>>* On 5/25/17 1:13 pm, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode wrote:
*>>>* Hi
** You might want to watch this 1 hour ish video by Bret Victor as you are
*>>* compiling.
*>>* I've seen a good few of his talks over the years and read a lot of his
*>>* stuff.
** If you think it's too long just got to either 2:30 or 10:30 (that one is
*>>* mind blowing) but I'd suggest you listen to the whole lecture.
*>>* This is the Ultimate IDE but his ideas about programming also cover what
*>>* Mark W.  was saying about not being able to remember the order of
*>>* parameters. That was in a different talk or on his website - i'll try and
*>>* dig it out.
** Comments?
** Regards Lagi*


On 30 September 2017 at 20:31, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 09/30/2017 11:58 AM, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:
>
>>
>>   Good read.Thanks!
>>
>
> Oops. I forgot to post a link to Bret Victor's talk:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxWM4t68cR4
>
> --
>  Mark Wieder
>  ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>
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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[hh via use-livecode]

> Mark Wieder wrote:
> Oops. I forgot to post a link to Bret Victor's talk:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxWM4t68cR4

Thanks for this valuable link. Very impressing thoughts
there.

The most interesting for me:
His first three demos are very close to LCB (as LCB is
close to javascript with the handlers he used).
So most of what he does with the sliders in the text
editor can we already have with "live-updates" from the
property inspector ...

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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 09/30/2017 11:58 AM, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:
  
  


  Good read.Thanks!


Oops. I forgot to post a link to Bret Victor's talk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxWM4t68cR4

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

 
 

 Good read.Thanks!
 

 
 

 
 
>  
> On Sep 30, 2017 at 12:31 PM,   (mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com)>  wrote:
>  
>  
>  
>  Long read, but worth the effort: 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/09/saving-the-world-from-code/540393/
>  -- Mark Wieder ahsoftw...@gmail.com 
> ___ use-livecode mailing list 
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> and manage your subscription preferences: 
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>
>  
 
 
 
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