Re: Quality, reputation, and improving both (was Re: text copied form LC generated PDF, WTF?)

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 2/20/20 7:34 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
Thank you, Mark.  Receiving the corrupted stack might be interesting, 


A doubtful prospect at best.


Do you have a recipe I can follow for this?


Absolutely no recipe. These things just sneak up on me, and by the time 
I can notice them I've already relaunched the IDE. That's what's most 
frustrating. If I had a recipe there would be something to fix.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Quality, reputation, and improving both (was Re: text copied form LC generated PDF, WTF?)

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Thank you, Mark.  Receiving the corrupted stack might be interesting, 
but what would certainly be most interesting would be to re-create that 
here.


Do you have a recipe I can follow for this?

Do you see the same behavior if plugins are disabled?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems


Mark Wieder wrote:

On 2/20/20 11:56 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

On the forums we see a another, with surprising frequency:  when the 
behavior of a script is not understood, the poster will sometimes 
surmise that the cause is somehow file format corruption. Many cases 
turn out to be just syntax errors, and IIRC few or none of those have 
turned out to be file format corruption.


So here's one for you: As I've mentioned before, I don't use 9.6dpx for 
anything serious. I've been working with LC9.6dp2 lately to see if my 
stacks still work with the latest builds and I've been coming up with 
interesting results.


At least twice now I've been editing scripts with two tabs open in the 
script editor. After dutifully saving my changes I close the IDE and 
relaunch to ensure a clean slate. I see that my stack crashes horribly 
because the script I was editing has been saved into the wrong object 
(the other script I was editing). Luckily backups saved me.


I have two different corrupted stacks after editing them (one of the 
corrupted stacks is your 4wdevolution stack - happy to send it your way 
if desired). Again backups saved the day. Made the same changes to the 
stack and it works fine.


One of my stacks that behaved properly in LC9.5.1 consistently crashed 
my distro's desktop manager in LC9.6dp2 (any edition), having to be 
restarted. I just spent two days trying to figure out if I was doing 
something wrong or something changed in LC itself, and it turns out to 
be a combination. The cef browser code has changed enough that just 
instantiating a browser widget is enough to cause havoc, so I now 
sidestep some previously-working code and hope that still works when we 
get dp3.


Yes, I realize that these are dp releases and shouldn't be considered 
stable, but it's gotten to the point where I don't know whether problems 
I come across are bugs in my code, bugs in the latest LC build, or 
upcoming changes to The Way Things Work.


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Re: Quality, reputation, and improving both (was Re: text copied form LC generated PDF, WTF?)

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 2/20/20 11:56 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

On the forums we see a another, with surprising frequency:  when the 
behavior of a script is not understood, the poster will sometimes 
surmise that the cause is somehow file format corruption. Many cases 
turn out to be just syntax errors, and IIRC few or none of those have 
turned out to be file format corruption.


So here's one for you: As I've mentioned before, I don't use 9.6dpx for 
anything serious. I've been working with LC9.6dp2 lately to see if my 
stacks still work with the latest builds and I've been coming up with 
interesting results.


At least twice now I've been editing scripts with two tabs open in the 
script editor. After dutifully saving my changes I close the IDE and 
relaunch to ensure a clean slate. I see that my stack crashes horribly 
because the script I was editing has been saved into the wrong object 
(the other script I was editing). Luckily backups saved me.


I have two different corrupted stacks after editing them (one of the 
corrupted stacks is your 4wdevolution stack - happy to send it your way 
if desired). Again backups saved the day. Made the same changes to the 
stack and it works fine.


One of my stacks that behaved properly in LC9.5.1 consistently crashed 
my distro's desktop manager in LC9.6dp2 (any edition), having to be 
restarted. I just spent two days trying to figure out if I was doing 
something wrong or something changed in LC itself, and it turns out to 
be a combination. The cef browser code has changed enough that just 
instantiating a browser widget is enough to cause havoc, so I now 
sidestep some previously-working code and hope that still works when we 
get dp3.


Yes, I realize that these are dp releases and shouldn't be considered 
stable, but it's gotten to the point where I don't know whether problems 
I come across are bugs in my code, bugs in the latest LC build, or 
upcoming changes to The Way Things Work.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Quality, reputation, and improving both (was Re: text copied form LC generated PDF, WTF?)

[dunbarx--- via use-livecode]

Crashers are of course serious, but the good news is that you're only 
seeing it in one project.  Feel free to email me directly if you're in a 
position to allow me to review the errant code, and I'll see what we can 
do to both find a workaround to keep your progress moving along well, 
and submit a report for the underlying cause once we find it.
Richard.
This happens all over the place, and seems to occur only after the stack has 
been fiddled with for a while. I cannot imagine that anything can be gleaned 
from the code base, which is 9000 lines of straight LC, with only a smattering 
of printing, printing to PDF, creating text files and reading and writing to 
them.
In fact, none of those "outside LC" gadgets have ever caused a crash. The 
bugaboo is inside somewhere; I do not believe it is something I wrote.
I have seen this in my other projects. They are not free of this issue. They 
just are not worked as hard,
Can I say "bugaboo" which is not a bug, but rather something that just bugs me?
I save often, and thereby save myself a lot of trouble.
Craig


-Original Message-
From: Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
To: use-livecode 
Cc: Richard Gaskin 
Sent: Thu, Feb 20, 2020 2:57 pm
Subject: Quality, reputation, and improving both (was Re: text copied form LC 
generated PDF, WTF?)

dunbarx wrote:

 > Several threads on the forum have bemoaned what is labeled an
 > overarching bug issue in LC.
...
 > I am really only concerned that LC not get a reputation for being
 > unstable.

Most of us share that concern.  To assess the issue soberly compels us 
to examine the nature and sources of reputation.

Reputation is only partly a reflection of actual technical fitness. The 
rest is a mix of factors that lie far outside of computer science, into 
the realms of psychology, sociology, and political science.

This thread is a good example:  What might have seemed at first like a 
bug in LC turned out to be a limitation inherent in the nature of PDF 
itself.

On the forums we see a another, with surprising frequency:  when the 
behavior of a script is not understood, the poster will sometimes 
surmise that the cause is somehow file format corruption. Many cases 
turn out to be just syntax errors, and IIRC few or none of those have 
turned out to be file format corruption.

We see a similar pattern with the documentation: many posts point to a 
need for additional information being added to the docs, with 
recommendations for learning basics linking to any of a wide range of 
resources spread out across the web, but on further examination we find 
that the fairly comprehensive 655-page User Guide included with the 
install hadn't yet been consulted at all.


None of this is to suggest that LiveCode is the world's first 
million-line code base that's completely bug-free.

But neither is it a roach motel when we consider the scope and 
complexity of the system with common metrics like bugs/kloc.


In the vast gulf between needlessly contentious allegations of 
"apologists" at one extreme and "Henny Pennys" on the other is a middle 
ground where meaningful product improvement can actually happen:

- Let questions be questions:  When an unexpected outcome is observed, 
we can keep an open mind about possible causes until the issue is 
diagnosed.  If we keep telling new users in advance that every 
unexpected outcome is a bug in LC they'll eventually believe it, even in 
the many cases where that isn't true.

- Let learning happen right in the box: We are blessed with a great many 
contributions from community members all across the web.  But to be 
clear, many of these predate the expanded documentation effort the team 
undertook several versions ago.  Moreover, those written after LC 
adopted an open source workflow missed the opportunity for greater 
readership, keeping them in a relatively small corner of the 
possibly-discoverable web rather than submitting them to the core docs 
every user is directed to right in the Help menu.  The docs are good, 
and can always be made even better.  We can help. Of course we want to 
see as much LC info everywhere, but core basics might just as well be in 
the box, and we do a good service to the learner to let them know when 
they already are.

- Let pre-release builds realize their value:  use them, whenever 
practical.  Putting off trying a new version until after Stable is the 
one choice that guarantees any issues affecting your specific work won't 
be fixed in that version.  We know from our own experiences and decades 
of industry literature that the earlier in the process bugs are 
identified, the less impact they have, and thus the total systemic cost 
to address them is much lower.


These are just suggestions, and certainly not any attempt at 
establishing any sort of "rules".  I have no authority to require anyone 
to do anything, nor would I even try, as I understand that from time to 
time t

Quality, reputation, and improving both (was Re: text copied form LC generated PDF, WTF?)

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

dunbarx wrote:

> Several threads on the forum have bemoaned what is labeled an
> overarching bug issue in LC.
...
> I am really only concerned that LC not get a reputation for being
> unstable.

Most of us share that concern.  To assess the issue soberly compels us 
to examine the nature and sources of reputation.


Reputation is only partly a reflection of actual technical fitness. The 
rest is a mix of factors that lie far outside of computer science, into 
the realms of psychology, sociology, and political science.


This thread is a good example:  What might have seemed at first like a 
bug in LC turned out to be a limitation inherent in the nature of PDF 
itself.


On the forums we see a another, with surprising frequency:  when the 
behavior of a script is not understood, the poster will sometimes 
surmise that the cause is somehow file format corruption. Many cases 
turn out to be just syntax errors, and IIRC few or none of those have 
turned out to be file format corruption.


We see a similar pattern with the documentation: many posts point to a 
need for additional information being added to the docs, with 
recommendations for learning basics linking to any of a wide range of 
resources spread out across the web, but on further examination we find 
that the fairly comprehensive 655-page User Guide included with the 
install hadn't yet been consulted at all.



None of this is to suggest that LiveCode is the world's first 
million-line code base that's completely bug-free.


But neither is it a roach motel when we consider the scope and 
complexity of the system with common metrics like bugs/kloc.



In the vast gulf between needlessly contentious allegations of 
"apologists" at one extreme and "Henny Pennys" on the other is a middle 
ground where meaningful product improvement can actually happen:


- Let questions be questions:  When an unexpected outcome is observed, 
we can keep an open mind about possible causes until the issue is 
diagnosed.  If we keep telling new users in advance that every 
unexpected outcome is a bug in LC they'll eventually believe it, even in 
the many cases where that isn't true.


- Let learning happen right in the box: We are blessed with a great many 
contributions from community members all across the web.  But to be 
clear, many of these predate the expanded documentation effort the team 
undertook several versions ago.  Moreover, those written after LC 
adopted an open source workflow missed the opportunity for greater 
readership, keeping them in a relatively small corner of the 
possibly-discoverable web rather than submitting them to the core docs 
every user is directed to right in the Help menu.  The docs are good, 
and can always be made even better.  We can help. Of course we want to 
see as much LC info everywhere, but core basics might just as well be in 
the box, and we do a good service to the learner to let them know when 
they already are.


- Let pre-release builds realize their value:  use them, whenever 
practical.  Putting off trying a new version until after Stable is the 
one choice that guarantees any issues affecting your specific work won't 
be fixed in that version.  We know from our own experiences and decades 
of industry literature that the earlier in the process bugs are 
identified, the less impact they have, and thus the total systemic cost 
to address them is much lower.



These are just suggestions, and certainly not any attempt at 
establishing any sort of "rules".  I have no authority to require anyone 
to do anything, nor would I even try, as I understand that from time to 
time there can be good reason to ignore each of these, and any other 
common practices observable in healthy software communities.


But most of us have been around the block enough times to recognize the 
value of such ordinary practices.  And all of us want LC to improve - 
both in terms of actual product quality, and its *perceived* quality, 
its reputation.


LiveCode is moving its way up the TIOBE Index of programming language 
popularity, slowly but steadily. For all the reasons Geoff Moore 
outlined in Crossing the Chasm and many more, expanding LC's audience 
benefits all of us: more tools, more libraries, more eyeballs, more hands.


There isn't a single language on the TIOBE Index that's bug-free, and 
yes, that includes LiveCode.


We the community have at least as much power and influence over LiveCode 
adoption as anything the core team can do, by virtue of our numbers and 
reach.  With any programming tool, the number of end-users who 
ultimately benefit is orders of magnitude larger than the number of 
developers using it.


Let's produce great work, and build upon those practices proven across 
the industry to expand both real and perceived quality.




Along those lines, I'll extend an offer here:

> For my part, I only notice that LC 9x crashes intermittently, though
> regularly. I must add that I am working mainly on a single project
> 

Re: text copied form LC generated PDF, WTF?

[Klaus major-k via use-livecode]

Hi Mark,

> Am 20.02.2020 um 14:55 schrieb Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> On 2020-02-18 18:40, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:
>> Hi friends,
>> I know that copying text form a PDF file may result in unexspected results,
>> but this is really ridicoulous!?
>> I created a PDF from LC (selected "Save as PDF" in the macOS Print dialog)
>> and when I copy some text and past it into TextEdit, this is what i get:
>> 
>> Where on earth are my numbers and where is my text?
>> Any insights very appreciated!
> 
> As requested by Klaus on the forum thread 
> (http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=9=33683=15) this isn't a 
> bug.
> TL;DR version - extracting text from PDFs is hard, and viewers all do it 
> differently with different levels of 'correctness'.
> The fonts used and the layout can affect what they can produce.
> In this case, the stack in question was being printed with the default system 
> theme fonts (on macOS this is .SFNSText it would seem) - and for whatever 
> reason that font generates glyphs for numbers in the PDF which PDF viewers 
> don't seem to be able to map back to actual digits.
> Upshot - make sure the controls you are printing have an explicit font 
> setting to a 'normal' font if you want to be able to copy text from any PDF 
> you might generate as a result :)

thank you very much for this valuable hint! :-D

> Warmest Regards,
> 
> Mark.

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
kl...@major-k.de


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Re: text copied form LC generated PDF, WTF?

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2020-02-18 18:40, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:

Hi friends,

I know that copying text form a PDF file may result in unexspected 
results,

but this is really ridicoulous!?

I created a PDF from LC (selected "Save as PDF" in the macOS Print 
dialog)
and when I copy some text and past it into TextEdit, this is what i 
get:


Where on earth are my numbers and where is my text?

Any insights very appreciated!


As requested by Klaus on the forum thread 
(http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=9=33683=15) this 
isn't a bug.


TL;DR version - extracting text from PDFs is hard, and viewers all do it 
differently with different levels of 'correctness'.


The fonts used and the layout can affect what they can produce.

In this case, the stack in question was being printed with the default 
system theme fonts (on macOS this is .SFNSText it would seem) - and for 
whatever reason that font generates glyphs for numbers in the PDF which 
PDF viewers don't seem to be able to map back to actual digits.


Upshot - make sure the controls you are printing have an explicit font 
setting to a 'normal' font if you want to be able to copy text from any 
PDF you might generate as a result :)


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: text copied form LC generated PDF, WTF?

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Or a bad infection for that matter. 

> On Feb 18, 2020, at 15:39 , Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> It's much more likely for someone to get a bad impression from unlucky 
> hands-on experience with the thing itself...

Bob S


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Re: text copied form LC generated PDF, WTF?

[Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode]

Craig:

> WTF has lost most of its bite due to simple continued usage

Then, to indulge your premise, which I agree is the trend in a great 
many social and media circles (but not all) consider this:


So WTF is the continued point of using WTF? If it no longer has enough 
shock value to raise any eyebrows, then it can hardly be the most 
appropriate choice of expression for any real-life surprise, concern, or 
scorn. Might as well say, oh golly gee. Oh me oh my.


As I mentioned before, logically "why not use something a little more 
risque and exciting than a plain-old unprovocative WTF? :) "


(But if it makes anyone uncomfortable that I'm using WTF repeatedly 
while discussing its previous use here, I apologize. But the point is - 
that also would tend to call the premise into question.)


Social trends and norms are usually not logical, but as coders we should be.

> I am really only concerned that LC not get a reputation for
> being unstable. That would turn off new users long before they
> ever actually experienced such a thing.

In contrast to scoundrels such as myself who have long worked to protect 
LC from a reputation for being unstable, by the alternative and 
nefarious means of working hard to encourage its stability. :D


It's much more likely for someone to get a bad impression from unlucky 
hands-on experience with the thing itself, than to stumble across these 
discussions while surfing. And if so, they'd be as likely to see me 
praising LC as, in this case, using the "bad language" of (not WTF, but) 
explaining how I've come to accept the sandy foundation and use new 
tactics to gain the upper hand again.


BTW, stability was actually not the main category of bugs I was talking 
about. Perhaps I could have said the Age of LC Bugs or Engine Bugs. I 
actually thought IDE Bugs sounded less negative. Ah well. Sorry for the 
bad language, WT(xxx) was I thinking! :)


Anyway, that's all the talk I can afford (otherwise at the expense of 
work) so back to lurking and working. I enjoyed taking this "interval" 
here to discuss and will do so again when time/energy permits. Hope to 
read more of Dar Scott (a very logical man) and Richmond (always 
provocative, never boring) too. Curry interval over, back to the usual 
programming here. Take care, all!


Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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Re: text copied form LC generated PDF, WTF?

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Not sure but the resulting text looks like this has been OCRd. We had a similar 
issue with this at a customer and I noticed that OCR seems to work best on 
greyscale 300dpi. It just depends on the engine. 

Bob S


> On Feb 18, 2020, at 10:45 , Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> That looks like a perfectly valid WTF file.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Curry Kenworthy
> 
> Custom Software Development
> "Better Methods, Better Results"
> LiveCode Training and Consulting
> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
> 
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Re: text copied form LC generated PDF, WTF?

[dunbarx--- via use-livecode]

@Curry, mainly.
The easy one. WTF has lost most of its bite due to simple continued usage. As 
Lenny Bruce noted 60 years ago, if you use a bad word often enough, it loses 
its badness.
The hard one. Several threads on the forum have bemoaned what is labeled an 
overarching bug issue in LC. There have been calls for a complete halt to 
development until most of the existing ones are squashed. For my part, I only 
notice that LC 9x crashes intermittently, though regularly. I must add that I 
am working mainly on a single project when this happens, and am conditioned to 
save often. The other projects I have currently do not exhibit this at all, 
though that may be simply due to the fact that I am involved in them much less 
intensely.
I suppose it is less worrisome that this is a problem in only a single project, 
than if it happened here and there, everywhere. At least I tell myself that.
I am really only concerned that LC not get a reputation for being unstable. 
That would turn off new users long before they ever actually experienced such a 
thing.
Craig


-Original Message-
From: Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
To: use-livecode 
Cc: Curry Kenworthy 
Sent: Tue, Feb 18, 2020 5:29 pm
Subject: Re: text copied form LC generated PDF, WTF?


 > Not to forget SpreadLib. ;)

Since you mention it, SpreadLib is not forgotten at all! Proud that 
SpreadLib was first, and is best, of its type. SpreadOut, especially, 
has come a long way since last public release. Looking forward very much 
to that update.

Most addons have progressed with features and fixes privately, and are 
waiting for official release, but releases take some time in themselves, 
and client deadlines always have to come first. We have some clients 
here that could vouch for both parts of that statement. :)

(I'm physically handicapped with some taxing health limitations, thus my 
active time is finite, determined by actual daily energy/strength and 
endurance, without anywhere near as much choice or freedom over my 
remaining time as most people take for granted. So clients get heavy 
priority, but addons are never forgotten and the work continues. Nor is 
this list ever forgotten, although I can't afford to be very vocal here 
beyond the occasional quick joke or brief comment. Mostly I'm a reader! 
Not by choice.)

LC's "infinite bugs" increasing in tempo since LC7 and frequent breaking 
changes have outpaced me at times, providing an ever-shifting foundation 
for building upon. Breaking things is usually easier and faster than 
cleaning up. In fact, I've devoted an amazing amount of my entire career 
to finding, documenting, and developing high-quality workarounds for 
these IDE and engine bugs - and it seems that we're just getting started.

But here's the good news - I'm adjusting strategies and tactics to that 
reality, having finally accepted it as the norm to expect now and 
perhaps forever. So I'm also developing new tools to gain the upper hand 
again in this Age of IDE Bugs, and therefore confident that I will 
indeed have the last laugh on this subject of my delayed progress (ha 
ha) and get addon updates back on a much more regular schedule, among 
other things that are likely to cause a big splash - perhaps even shake 
up the industry a bit! :D

Another high priority for update release this year is WordReport - quite 
a lot of inquiries lately, which are pushing it toward the top of my 
list. Yep, it's coming, and it's going to reach new heights. Thanks to 
all for your feedback and support! Exciting things are on the way.

--

About the subject of copying and pasting to/from LC, here's a current 
bug that's easy to workaround, but also easy to forget to workaround - 
and can cause mayhem:

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22172

--

BTW, it's a tad difficult to completely ignore "WTF" posts, and my post 
here was a joke on two levels, the first of which Klaus immediately 
acknowledged.

But the second level had a more serious undercurrent, and it's why I 
posted a reply in the first place: is WTF considered completely 
squeaky-clean and shock-free nowadays? Has it, along with its component 
words, been completely sanitized for all ages and audiences? And if so, 
then logically: why unfailingly abbreviate, without ever using the 
component words every now and then for variety, and also why not use 
something a little more risque and exciting than a plain-old 
unprovocative WTF? :)

Thus the WTF file format, since it is so often mentioned here lately.

Take care and enjoy coding, everyone

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

WordLib: Take charge of MS Word and OpenOffice documents
SpreadLib: "Excel-lent" spreadsheet import/export for LC
http://livecodeaddons.com/

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Re: text copied form LC generated PDF, WTF?

[Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode]

> Not to forget SpreadLib. ;)

Since you mention it, SpreadLib is not forgotten at all! Proud that 
SpreadLib was first, and is best, of its type. SpreadOut, especially, 
has come a long way since last public release. Looking forward very much 
to that update.


Most addons have progressed with features and fixes privately, and are 
waiting for official release, but releases take some time in themselves, 
and client deadlines always have to come first. We have some clients 
here that could vouch for both parts of that statement. :)


(I'm physically handicapped with some taxing health limitations, thus my 
active time is finite, determined by actual daily energy/strength and 
endurance, without anywhere near as much choice or freedom over my 
remaining time as most people take for granted. So clients get heavy 
priority, but addons are never forgotten and the work continues. Nor is 
this list ever forgotten, although I can't afford to be very vocal here 
beyond the occasional quick joke or brief comment. Mostly I'm a reader! 
Not by choice.)


LC's "infinite bugs" increasing in tempo since LC7 and frequent breaking 
changes have outpaced me at times, providing an ever-shifting foundation 
for building upon. Breaking things is usually easier and faster than 
cleaning up. In fact, I've devoted an amazing amount of my entire career 
to finding, documenting, and developing high-quality workarounds for 
these IDE and engine bugs - and it seems that we're just getting started.


But here's the good news - I'm adjusting strategies and tactics to that 
reality, having finally accepted it as the norm to expect now and 
perhaps forever. So I'm also developing new tools to gain the upper hand 
again in this Age of IDE Bugs, and therefore confident that I will 
indeed have the last laugh on this subject of my delayed progress (ha 
ha) and get addon updates back on a much more regular schedule, among 
other things that are likely to cause a big splash - perhaps even shake 
up the industry a bit! :D


Another high priority for update release this year is WordReport - quite 
a lot of inquiries lately, which are pushing it toward the top of my 
list. Yep, it's coming, and it's going to reach new heights. Thanks to 
all for your feedback and support! Exciting things are on the way.


--

About the subject of copying and pasting to/from LC, here's a current 
bug that's easy to workaround, but also easy to forget to workaround - 
and can cause mayhem:


https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22172

--

BTW, it's a tad difficult to completely ignore "WTF" posts, and my post 
here was a joke on two levels, the first of which Klaus immediately 
acknowledged.


But the second level had a more serious undercurrent, and it's why I 
posted a reply in the first place: is WTF considered completely 
squeaky-clean and shock-free nowadays? Has it, along with its component 
words, been completely sanitized for all ages and audiences? And if so, 
then logically: why unfailingly abbreviate, without ever using the 
component words every now and then for variety, and also why not use 
something a little more risque and exciting than a plain-old 
unprovocative WTF? :)


Thus the WTF file format, since it is so often mentioned here lately.

Take care and enjoy coding, everyone

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

WordLib: Take charge of MS Word and OpenOffice documents
SpreadLib: "Excel-lent" spreadsheet import/export for LC
http://livecodeaddons.com/

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Re: text copied form LC generated PDF, WTF?

[Klaus major-k via use-livecode]

> Am 18.02.2020 um 19:40 schrieb Klaus major-k via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> Hi friends,
> 
> I know that copying text form a PDF file may result in unexspected results, 
> but this is really ridicoulous!?
> 
> I created a PDF from LC (selected "Save as PDF" in the macOS Print dialog)
> and when I copy some text and past it into TextEdit, this is what i get: 
> 
> Where on earth are my numbers and where is my text?

additional info:
I exclusively use the build-in means of macOS 10.14.6 with LC Indy 9.5.1:
1. System wide Printing to PDF resp. "Open in Preview"
2. Preview to open and diplay the PDF, I copied the text here
3. TextEdit to paste the copied text from 2

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
kl...@major-k.de


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Re: text copied form LC generated PDF, WTF?

[matthias rebbe via use-livecode]

> Am 18.02.2020 um 19:53 schrieb Klaus major-k via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> 
>> Am 18.02.2020 um 19:45 schrieb Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>> :
>> 
>> That looks like a perfectly valid WTF file.
> 
> very funny, almost as funny as "FieldTrip: fully paid, but still in beta 
> after 7 (SEVEN) years"! 8-)
> Yes, I know I am just too impatient...
> 
Not to forget SpreadLib. ;)



>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> Curry Kenworthy
> 
> --
> Klaus Major
> https://www.major-k.de
> kl...@major-k.de
> 
> 
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Re: text copied form LC generated PDF, WTF?

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 2/18/20 10:40 AM, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:


Any insights very appreciated!


Wieder came through with no problem.
What more could you possibly ask for?

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: text copied form LC generated PDF, WTF?

[Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode]

Touche! :)

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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Re: text copied form LC generated PDF, WTF?

[Klaus major-k via use-livecode]

> Am 18.02.2020 um 19:45 schrieb Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> That looks like a perfectly valid WTF file.

very funny, almost as funny as "FieldTrip: fully paid, but still in beta after 
7 (SEVEN) years"! 8-)
Yes, I know I am just too impatient...

> Best wishes,
> 
> Curry Kenworthy

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
kl...@major-k.de


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Re: text copied form LC generated PDF, WTF?

[Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode]

That looks like a perfectly valid WTF file.

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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text copied form LC generated PDF, WTF?

[Klaus major-k via use-livecode]

Hi friends,

I know that copying text form a PDF file may result in unexspected results, 
but this is really ridicoulous!?

I created a PDF from LC (selected "Save as PDF" in the macOS Print dialog)
and when I copy some text and past it into TextEdit, this is what i get: 

Where on earth are my numbers and where is my text?

Any insights very appreciated!


Best

Klaus
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
kl...@major-k.de


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