Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Wait we might be onto something here! Make programming reference materials out 
of edible paper, like the stuff they wrap japanese candy in. Then as you read 
each page, you eat it! 

Bob S


> On Aug 6, 2018, at 15:18 , Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 2018-08-06 21:49, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> Mark Waddingham wrote:
>>> I think it might be quite unique amongst x-talks in another way too...
>>> How much of any of the others were written in themselves?
>> Not many.  Toolbook, Gain Momentum, and SuperCard are the only ones I
>> can think of beyond LC that had enough confidence in their tooling to
>> use it to make their tooling.
> 
> I couldn't remember whether SuperCard's IDE was written in SuperCard or not, 
> interesting to know. I must confess I've never really had any experience with 
> Toolbook or Gain Momentum... Although I think I digested Toolbook's reference 
> guide / dictionary at some point (by reading, not by actually eating and 
> digesting!).
> 
> In any case, looks like we have a bit more work to do before we can truly 
> claim we are unique amongst x-talks on that particular vector...
> 
> Warmest Regards,
> 
> Mark.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps


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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Huh. That's about the time I stopped using in it. I kept upgrading Supercard 
for years telling myself I would get back into it, but never really did. I was 
fully immersed in Foxpro at that point because my employer used SBT, which was 
written in Foxpro. 

Bob S


> On Aug 6, 2018, at 11:26 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> It isn't.  SuperCard is available exclusively for macOS.  There was an effort 
> in the mid-90s to port to Windows, but funding dried up before it was 
> completed so no useful version ever saw the light of day.
> 
> Toolbook is also single-platform, Windows-only.


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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Jerry Jensen via use-livecode]

> On Aug 6, 2018, at 3:18 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Although I think I digested Toolbook's reference guide / dictionary at some 
> point (by reading, not by actually eating and digesting!).

An artist friend of mine attempted to _eat_ the Guiness Book of World Records. 
It proved to be infeasible. The attempt was recorded on an early Sony porta-pak 
and transferred (with difficulty) to youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qceil955Rcw
Do not try this at home!
.Jerry


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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2018-08-06 21:49, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

Mark Waddingham wrote:


I think it might be quite unique amongst x-talks in another way too...

How much of any of the others were written in themselves?


Not many.  Toolbook, Gain Momentum, and SuperCard are the only ones I
can think of beyond LC that had enough confidence in their tooling to
use it to make their tooling.


I couldn't remember whether SuperCard's IDE was written in SuperCard or 
not, interesting to know. I must confess I've never really had any 
experience with Toolbook or Gain Momentum... Although I think I digested 
Toolbook's reference guide / dictionary at some point (by reading, not 
by actually eating and digesting!).


In any case, looks like we have a bit more work to do before we can 
truly claim we are unique amongst x-talks on that particular vector...


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Mark Waddingham wrote:

> I think it might be quite unique amongst x-talks in another way too...
>
> How much of any of the others were written in themselves?

Not many.  Toolbook, Gain Momentum, and SuperCard are the only ones I 
can think of beyond LC that had enough confidence in their tooling to 
use it to make their tooling.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

I think it might be quite unique amongst x-talks in another way too...

How much of any of the others were written in themselves?

Mark.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 6 Aug 2018, at 13:26, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> It isn't.  SuperCard is available exclusively for macOS.  There was an effort 
> in the mid-90s to port to Windows, but funding dried up before it was 
> completed so no useful version ever saw the light of day.
> 
> Toolbook is also single-platform, Windows-only.
> 
> But most of the others were cross-platform to varying degrees:  OMO and Plus 
> were Mac and Windows, Gain Momentum was Unix and Windows, SenseTalk ran on 
> Mac, Windows, and Unix.
> 
> LC is unique in its expansion to mobile, though.  And today, even looking 
> beyond xTalks, I don't see any other scripting tool with integrated GUI 
> elements available for as many platforms.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> 
> Richmond Mathewson wrote:
>> How "multi" is SuperCard?
>>> On 6/8/2018 6:47 pm, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Except for Supercard.
>>> 
>>> 
 On Aug 5, 2018, at 13:40 , Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode >>> at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
 
 LiveCode is multiplatform and this single fact
 set it apart from all previous x-talk languages.
> 
> 
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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Oh, Yes, ToolBook . .

I had to work with ToolBook in 1998 when I was at the UAE University in 
Al Ain, UAE, making EFL "stuff".


Far, far less easy-going than HyperCard.

Sheikh Yer-Bomboms, the chancellor of the University (a man who was 
pointed on merit:
the merit of being one of the sons of Sheikh Zayed al-Nahyan), suddenly 
decided in 1998 that we'd chuck out all
the Macs running system 8 we'd just spent 4 months setting up and 
authoring EFL-ware for with HyperCard

and replace them with IBM-compats running Windows NT.

So, when I wasn't teaching women/girls whose faces I couldn't see, I was 
sitting between a Macintosh and a PC trying to

reimplement all the HyperCard offerings in ToolBook.

This was a major "fag" as a lot of what I had got going in HyperCard (3D 
models of filing cabinets popping open their

draws to reveal Quicktime movies) just did not seem possible with ToolBook.

Arriving in St. Andrews, in Scotland, in 2000, hired to author EFL-ware 
for several Mac labs (which I never did as they
redirected my efforts & we had a fight involving the teachers' Union and 
so on), I discovered Metacard, and less than 2 weeks later found

Runtime Revolution 1.1.1.

At the risk of sounding extremely corny, after 2 sweaty years with 
Toolbook, RunRev was almost like returning home.


From what I have seen recently, ToolBook seems to have "degenerated" 
from a "proper" programming IDE into some sort

of "PowerPoint on Steroids" for business types.

Richmond.

On 6/8/2018 9:26 pm, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
It isn't.  SuperCard is available exclusively for macOS.  There was an 
effort in the mid-90s to port to Windows, but funding dried up before 
it was completed so no useful version ever saw the light of day.


Toolbook is also single-platform, Windows-only.

But most of the others were cross-platform to varying degrees: OMO and 
Plus were Mac and Windows, Gain Momentum was Unix and Windows, 
SenseTalk ran on Mac, Windows, and Unix.


LC is unique in its expansion to mobile, though.  And today, even 
looking beyond xTalks, I don't see any other scripting tool with 
integrated GUI elements available for as many platforms.




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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

It isn't.  SuperCard is available exclusively for macOS.  There was an 
effort in the mid-90s to port to Windows, but funding dried up before it 
was completed so no useful version ever saw the light of day.


Toolbook is also single-platform, Windows-only.

But most of the others were cross-platform to varying degrees:  OMO and 
Plus were Mac and Windows, Gain Momentum was Unix and Windows, SenseTalk 
ran on Mac, Windows, and Unix.


LC is unique in its expansion to mobile, though.  And today, even 
looking beyond xTalks, I don't see any other scripting tool with 
integrated GUI elements available for as many platforms.


--
 Richard Gaskin

Richmond Mathewson wrote:

How "multi" is SuperCard?

On 6/8/2018 6:47 pm, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

Except for Supercard.



On Aug 5, 2018, at 13:40 , Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode  wrote:

LiveCode is multiplatform and this single fact
set it apart from all previous x-talk languages.



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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 08/06/2018 10:26 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

3. The state of the art suggests we're a long way from anything close to 
the Singularity:


Google Translate’s AI starts talking about the end of the world
 



:)



LOL. I was wondering how long before someone posted that.
And in spite of Google's "fixing" the AI translator (fun while it 
lasted) if you translate "be do be do be do be do be do be do be do" 
from Maori to English you still get "why not why do not you do it?".


Or translate "Ich bi befo" from Maori to English and get "I'm like a 
butterfly"


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

How "multi" is SuperCard?

Richmond.

On 6/8/2018 6:47 pm, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

Except for Supercard.

Bob S



On Aug 5, 2018, at 13:40 , Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode 
 wrote:

LiveCode is multiplatform and this single fact
set it apart from all previous x-talk languages.


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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Mark Waddingham wrote:

> However the reason google search can do that is because some
> programmer at google has added a hook which knows that when that
> pattern is searched for it should call a program that has been
> explicitly written which looks up the current exchange rate and
> then renders the result in a nicely formatted string which appears
> at the top of the search results.

Amen.

Before anyone gets too worshipful about AI, it may be useful to consider:

1. "AI" is being bandied about for any software that has more than three 
nested "if"s. ;)  I'm exaggerating of course, but really, software is 
just software; some is more complex than others, some useful, some mere 
flourish, and none of it models human cognitive processes particularly well.



2. One motivation for normalizing the term "AI" is to minimize liability 
exposure for wealthy corporations who deploy complex software without 
adequate testing. "It has a mind of its own" is not an allowable defense 
with any other product, and continued deification of software under the 
"AI" label risks losing sight of that.



3. The state of the art suggests we're a long way from anything close to 
the Singularity:


Google Translate’s AI starts talking about the end of the world


:)

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

But that too is an illusion. The mysterious servers are not really "learning". 
They are taking input and then processing it according to rules that a group of 
software developer somewhere defined. That's why the "A" in "AI" means 
"Artificial". I think (and therefore I am) we need to keep this focus, 
otherwise a lot of time and energy will be spent trying to make an inanimate 
object into a living creature that actually *can* learn. What is REALLY needed 
these days is finding a way to teach children how to learn, something modern 
school systems seem to have neglected. 

Bob S


> On Aug 5, 2018, at 15:35 , Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mark,
> 
>> H - I think that is missing the point about what the
>> current 'AI' technologies that exist actually do (as far as
>> I can see anyway - I'd be more than happy to be
>> proved wrong!)...
> 
> Well, the point is that all current AI technologies requires
> an internet connection to work and AI software that run
> in servers is learning thousands of new interactions
> everyday from millions active users.


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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

These are great points. This is why I say that computers don't *actually* do 
anything. All they do is arrange information in a way that humans can 
understand and act upon. That human may be a software developer who then feeds 
that information to a manufacturing device to build a widget. Or it may be 
information provided to the accountant so that a printer can actually pring the 
paychecks. 

All these are incredibly useful things, but the computer is not "doing" any 
work in terms of moving mass. And what it looks like they are doing, say flying 
an airplane or drawing a spreadsheet, is really an illusion created by a long 
string of software developers to transform information we understand into a 
binary form, make some calculations, then convery the binary information back 
to another form of information. 

Bob S


> On Aug 5, 2018, at 14:35 , Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> H - I think that is missing the point about what the current 'AI' 
> technologies that exist actually do (as far as I can see anyway - I'd be more 
> than happy to be proved wrong!)...
> 
> They are merely mappings from one form input to another form of input - they 
> themselves don't do any action - the actions still have to be implemented 
> somehow.
> 
> Alexa for example by itself does diddly-squat beyond map voice to a lower 
> level actionable command (with an element of context, certainly which makes 
> it slightly interesting) - it's the skills that people 'like us' implement 
> which actually do the thing Alexa interprets that we want to be done.
> 
> Same with google assistant, siri, wolfram alpha, even google search - I can 
> type 'what is 100 usd in gbp' and it gives me the answer.
> 
> However the reason google search can do that is because some programmer at 
> google has added a hook which knows that when that pattern is searched for it 
> should call a program that has been explicitly written which looks up the 
> current exchange rate and then renders the result in a nicely formatted 
> string which appears at the top of the search results.
> 
> Warmest Regards,
> 
> Mark.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Except for Supercard. 

Bob S


> On Aug 5, 2018, at 13:40 , Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> LiveCode is multiplatform and this single fact
> set it apart from all previous x-talk languages.


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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode]

Mark Wieder wrote:
> Dang. And I was *so* waiting around for LC11.

We already have revSpeak, so I could wait a few years
for the command revListen  :-D

http://docs.runrev.com/Command/revSpeak

Al
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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 08/05/2018 01:48 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

How are all these artifical intelligence assistants, and various drivers 
needed for the various forms of input you suggest built?


I don't think there are any magic beans around you can plant to have 
them appear...


Dang. And I was *so* waiting around for LC11.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode]

Hi Mark,

> H - I think that is missing the point about what the
> current 'AI' technologies that exist actually do (as far as
> I can see anyway - I'd be more than happy to be
> proved wrong!)...

Well, the point is that all current AI technologies requires
an internet connection to work and AI software that run
in servers is learning thousands of new interactions
everyday from millions active users.

If a thousand small tasks and user interactions prove to be
useful (based in user feedback) and successful (based in
repeated use) for many, many users, then the operating
system will offer these tasks, make them available to you
and all users. Millions of new users.
Step by step, task by task a picture of a more and more
useful AI assistant will emerge thanks to the feedback
and guidance from millions active users.

> They are merely mappings from one form input to another form of input -
> they themselves don't do any action - the actions still have to be
> implemented somehow.

Yes, in a central server. In this moment there are millions creating
these tasks (probably unaware that they are programming too)

> Alexa for example by itself does diddly-squat beyond map voice to a
> lower level actionable command (with an element of context, certainly
> which makes it slightly interesting) - it's the skills that people 'like
us'
> implement which actually do the thing Alexa interprets that we want
> to be done.

Yes, this is programming. Millions active users are doing this
for free in this moment.

> Same with google assistant, siri, wolfram alpha, even google search -
> I can type 'what is 100 usd in gbp' and it gives me the answer.
> However the reason google search can do that is because
> some programmer at google has added a hook which knows
> that when that pattern is searched for it should call a program
> that has been explicitly written which looks up the current
> exchange rate and then renders the result in a nicely formatted
> string which appears at the top of the search results.

The keys to create more useful AI assistants are positive
user feedback and repeated use. Time will tell
which company wins this time.

Al
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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Oh, Dear, Mark, I think you've just fallen into my trap . . .

If you've lost sight of something, you . . .

Sorry about that; just too hard to resist.

---

" "enabling millions of novices to build simple applications" "

--

Although, to be fair that's not the problem.

What might be the problem is what we might call "reach".

Every single Macintosh came with HyperCard installed.

Nothing comes with LiveCode installed.

AND LiveCode's uptake is very slim indeed.

I have just started learning Python: NOT because I don't think LiveCode 
rocks the socks off almost every other programming language/IDE,


but because of pure economics.

I would like someone to explain why people all seem to want their kids 
to learn C++, C# or Python when

they all look like riffs on the PASCAL I studied 33 years ago at University.

And PYTHON comes installed on Macintosh and most Linux distros.

Richmond.

On 5/8/2018 11:46 pm, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2018-08-05 21:49, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

Who said LiveCode lost sight of that?

Oh, it was me.


Lost sight of what?

Mark.



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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

H - I think that is missing the point about what the current 'AI' 
technologies that exist actually do (as far as I can see anyway - I'd be more 
than happy to be proved wrong!)...

They are merely mappings from one form input to another form of input - they 
themselves don't do any action - the actions still have to be implemented 
somehow.

Alexa for example by itself does diddly-squat beyond map voice to a lower level 
actionable command (with an element of context, certainly which makes it 
slightly interesting) - it's the skills that people 'like us' implement which 
actually do the thing Alexa interprets that we want to be done.

Same with google assistant, siri, wolfram alpha, even google search - I can 
type 'what is 100 usd in gbp' and it gives me the answer.

However the reason google search can do that is because some programmer at 
google has added a hook which knows that when that pattern is searched for it 
should call a program that has been explicitly written which looks up the 
current exchange rate and then renders the result in a nicely formatted string 
which appears at the top of the search results.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 5 Aug 2018, at 16:08, Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mark,
> 
>> Lost sight of what?
> 
> If I understand Richmond correctly, he is talking that for
> many developers the name HyperCard is synonymy
> with "vastly easier and more accessible programming"
> and that RunRev could have taken advantage of this
> for positioning LiveCode among other development
> platforms... BUT I disagree, because Livecode is
> multiplatform and for everyone else, except Mac users,
> HyperCard do not run in their computers.
> 
>> How are all these artifical intelligence assistants,
>> and various drivers needed for the various forms of
>> input you suggest built?
> 
>> I don't think there are any magic beans around you
>> can plant to have them appear...
> 
> After Google, Microsoft, Apple and Linux implement these
> features in their operating systems, then every program could
> use them. Google could be first, then Apple, later Microsoft
> and finally Linux... but I could be wrong in this sequence.
> 
> Al
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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode]

Hi Mark,

> Lost sight of what?

If I understand Richmond correctly, he is talking that for
many developers the name HyperCard is synonymy
with "vastly easier and more accessible programming"
and that RunRev could have taken advantage of this
for positioning LiveCode among other development
platforms... BUT I disagree, because Livecode is
multiplatform and for everyone else, except Mac users,
HyperCard do not run in their computers.

> How are all these artifical intelligence assistants,
> and various drivers needed for the various forms of
> input you suggest built?

> I don't think there are any magic beans around you
> can plant to have them appear...

After Google, Microsoft, Apple and Linux implement these
features in their operating systems, then every program could
use them. Google could be first, then Apple, later Microsoft
and finally Linux... but I could be wrong in this sequence.

Al
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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2018-08-05 22:40, Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode wrote:

In my humble opinion, the future of programming
would be driven by artificial intelligence assistants
and multiple ways of working and interfacing with
the computer using voice, gaze interaction, gesture,
motion, pointer, keyboard, etc...


How are all these artifical intelligence assistants, and various drivers 
needed for the various forms of input you suggest built?


I don't think there are any magic beans around you can plant to have 
them appear...


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
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LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2018-08-05 21:49, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

Who said LiveCode lost sight of that?

Oh, it was me.


Lost sight of what?

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode]

Richmond wrote:
> Who said LiveCode lost sight of that?
> Oh, it was me.

Actually, I understand why RunRev do not want to
sell LiveCode as a HyperCard replacement.

LiveCode is multiplatform and this single fact
set it apart from all previous x-talk languages.

In my humble opinion, the future of programming
would be driven by artificial intelligence assistants
and multiple ways of working and interfacing with
the computer using voice, gaze interaction, gesture,
motion, pointer, keyboard, etc...

Al


On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 3:16 PM, Alejandro Tejada 
wrote:
>
> "Programming could be much much easier most of the time.
> This unnecessary difficulty wastes the effort of professional
> programmers, but worse, prevents many people from programming
> at all. The problem is a nasty hairball of culture and technology
> and money that is not easily untangled"
>
> https://alarmingdevelopment.org/?p=1173
>
> Jonathan Edwards, the author of this article, remembers
> HyperCard for "enabling millions of novices to build
> simple applications"
>
> Al
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Re: [OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Who said LiveCode lost sight of that?

Oh, it was me.

Richmond.

On 5/8/2018 10:16 pm, Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode wrote:

"Programming could be much much easier most of the time.
This unnecessary difficulty wastes the effort of professional
programmers, but worse, prevents many people from programming
at all. The problem is a nasty hairball of culture and technology
and money that is not easily untangled"

https://alarmingdevelopment.org/?p=1173

Jonathan Edwards, the author of this article, remembers
HyperCard for "enabling millions of novices to build
simple applications"

Al
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[OT] The problem with programming and how to fix it

[Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode]

"Programming could be much much easier most of the time.
This unnecessary difficulty wastes the effort of professional
programmers, but worse, prevents many people from programming
at all. The problem is a nasty hairball of culture and technology
and money that is not easily untangled"

https://alarmingdevelopment.org/?p=1173

Jonathan Edwards, the author of this article, remembers
HyperCard for "enabling millions of novices to build
simple applications"

Al
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