Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 07/21/2017 11:14 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:
Just started 8.1.6 rc 2 *AGAIN*, both on my Mac (10.7.5) and my Linux 
(Xubuntu 16.04) and
in both cases got a WHITE backdrop even though I had set the Preferences 
to NO backdrop.


Yes - that won't be fixed until the imminent rc3 release.
I deleted 8.1.6rc2 to make sure I don't accidentally launch it.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Just started 8.1.6 rc 2 *AGAIN*, both on my Mac (10.7.5) and my Linux 
(Xubuntu 16.04) and
in both cases got a WHITE backdrop even though I had set the Preferences 
to NO backdrop.


Richmond.
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 07/20/2017 11:33 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:
Well that's fine; as you should be aware, all in-groups like to talk to 
each other in such a way as to

exclude non-members so that they can feel vastly superior.


I decry the discrimination against Finno-Ugric!

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com



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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Well that's fine; as you should be aware, all in-groups like to talk to 
each other in such a way as to

exclude non-members so that they can feel vastly superior.

Richmond.

On 7/20/17 9:26 pm, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

Commonly understood by all in the group. Not all mankind! :-)

Bob S



On Jul 20, 2017, at 10:22 , Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Fine: then let's all switch over to Latin.

Richmond.


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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Commonly understood by all in the group. Not all mankind! :-)

Bob S


> On Jul 20, 2017, at 10:22 , Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Fine: then let's all switch over to Latin.
> 
> Richmond.


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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Fine: then let's all switch over to Latin.

Richmond.

On 7/20/17 5:57 pm, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

I too find it much more productive when communicating with a group to do so in 
a language common to all. :-)

Bob S



On Jul 19, 2017, at 04:28 , Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode 
 wrote:

I am sorry, but my French is not so good. Google translate gave me the 
following translation to English:

* Everyone to his taste but this, o, ent it is not a choice!
I would like a digestive.

But still wondering what you wanted to say.
(The German translation was even more confusing)




Matthias Rebbe


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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

I too find it much more productive when communicating with a group to do so in 
a language common to all. :-)

Bob S


> On Jul 19, 2017, at 04:28 , Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I am sorry, but my French is not so good. Google translate gave me the 
> following translation to English:
> 
> * Everyone to his taste but this, o, ent it is not a choice!
> I would like a digestive.
> 
> But still wondering what you wanted to say.
> (The German translation was even more confusing)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matthias Rebbe


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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6=29517=156125#p156125

On 7/19/17 10:39 pm, Ali Lloyd via use-livecode wrote:

That is a rather good suggestion!




Richmond.

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Ali Lloyd via use-livecode]

That is a rather good suggestion!

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 8:10 PM Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I understand your point completely!
>
> HOWEVER, why not make it slightly easier to make the backdrop to disappear?
>
> Erm . . . how about a button on the far right of the revMenubar stack?
>
> Richmond.
>
> On 7/19/17 10:06 pm, Ali Lloyd via use-livecode wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 5:58 PM Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> >> How about *offering* to put up the backdrop for the tutorial, rather
> than
> >> imposing it?
> >>
> > Well, we were acting in direct response to a whole lot of feedback from
> new
> > users who didn't seem to like the idea of seeing 'through' LiveCode to
> > their desktops.
> >
> > If we get corresponding feedback that they *don't* like having the
> backdrop
> > (we didn't get such feedback at the first user testing) then we would for
> > sure make it an option. But honestly, the fewer questions a user is asked
> > about their default preferences the better. Imagine having to answer on
> > startup whether you want the palettes to disappear when you open the
> script
> > editor, and whether you want an HTTP proxy, and what colour you want your
> > selection handles to be, and whether you would like to see default
> handlers
> > in the handler list, and whether you would like to see property labels
> > instead of property names in the property inspector.
> >
> > Surely the most sensible route here is to decide on defaults and see if
> > people for whom those defaults are relevant have any objections? I'm not
> > sure it is necessary to be offended on behalf of hypothetical new users
> :-)
> > ___
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 07/18/2017 10:59 PM, Ali Lloyd via use-livecode wrote:

Do your keyboard shortcuts work Mark? You could use Ctrl+M to pop open the
message box, and set the backdrop to none, then toggle it on and off via
the View menu, then hopefully it should be gone from your preferences.


Interesting. That didn't work for me, but the following did:

launch LC9
get a completely gray screen
alt-tab my way to LiveCode
now the menubar and other palettes are in front of the backdrop
disable the backdrop to set the preference

so everything's there, it's just that the backdrop is in front of all 
other windows and it's not passing (keyboard) events through.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

"Assault" . . . Woof.

"The screen seizure indicates a mindset catering to the simplistic, 
unsophisticated, and non-programming user"


Well . . .

I'm not sure why favouring a backdrop blocking out a desktop indicates 
that one is 'simplistic' . . .


Until I went to the US in 1993 I had never seen a GUI except for a 
really awful attempt at one on a BBC Micro;
but I was perfectly capable of doing distinctly non-simplistic stuff 
with FORTRAN, PASCAL, BASIC and so on.


Recently I started a group of kids on a summer programming course with 
BBC BASIC on a load of

BBC Micro computers: very effective and lots of fun was had all round.

There are front-ends for Linux available that do NOT splatter the screen 
with icons and other screen 'furniture' (docks and so on)
for people who prefer things that way: I don't suppose they are either 
simplistic or unsophisticated.


Personally I don't like using a backdrop with LiveCode, but I can see 
its use to the extent that my Devawriter Pro has an in-built

backdrop for those who want one.

"non-programming user"

My Mum uses a laptop running Xubuntu 14.04 where her desktop is gaily 
peppered with icons and a dock; while she is
neither simplistic nor unsophisticated she is most definitely a 
non-programming user.


For a lawyer you seem remarkably . . . [well, there we are, I'll leave 
you to fill in the dots].




NOW . . . to be sensible . . .

Let us imagine when starting up LiveCode for the first time we are 
presented with a menu window that allows us to choose whether we think 
that we are:


1. A newbie who is seeing the thing for the first time.

2. A haory old programmer who does not need his/her/its handheld.

And at that point we can get all Prince-of-Denmarky with our backdrop.

Richmond.

On 7/19/17 10:16 pm, Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode wrote:

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:06 PM, Ali Lloyd via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:



Surely the most sensible route here is to decide on defaults and see if
people for whom those defaults are relevant have any objections? I'm not
sure it is necessary to be offended on behalf of hypothetical new users :-)


To be absolutely, crystal clear, as a non-hypothetical former new user:
  there is very little chance that I would have become a user after an
assault like that.

The assault itself is an information signal, whether correctly perceived or
not, about how the project development mindset views it's own importance,
users, and how users should submit to its preferences.

Seize my interface, and I'm pretty much instantly hostile.  At that point,
you're not trying to attract a curious potential user, but an angry one,
and that will color  the response.

The screen seizure indicates a mindset catering to the simplistic,
unsophisticated, and non-programming user--at the expense of hostility to
those who have experience, ttc.



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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode]

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:06 PM, Ali Lloyd via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>
> Surely the most sensible route here is to decide on defaults and see if
> people for whom those defaults are relevant have any objections? I'm not
> sure it is necessary to be offended on behalf of hypothetical new users :-)
>

To be absolutely, crystal clear, as a non-hypothetical former new user:
 there is very little chance that I would have become a user after an
assault like that.

The assault itself is an information signal, whether correctly perceived or
not, about how the project development mindset views it's own importance,
users, and how users should submit to its preferences.

Seize my interface, and I'm pretty much instantly hostile.  At that point,
you're not trying to attract a curious potential user, but an angry one,
and that will color  the response.

The screen seizure indicates a mindset catering to the simplistic,
unsophisticated, and non-programming user--at the expense of hostility to
those who have experience, ttc.

-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

I understand your point completely!

HOWEVER, why not make it slightly easier to make the backdrop to disappear?

Erm . . . how about a button on the far right of the revMenubar stack?

Richmond.

On 7/19/17 10:06 pm, Ali Lloyd via use-livecode wrote:

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 5:58 PM Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:


How about *offering* to put up the backdrop for the tutorial, rather than
imposing it?


Well, we were acting in direct response to a whole lot of feedback from new
users who didn't seem to like the idea of seeing 'through' LiveCode to
their desktops.

If we get corresponding feedback that they *don't* like having the backdrop
(we didn't get such feedback at the first user testing) then we would for
sure make it an option. But honestly, the fewer questions a user is asked
about their default preferences the better. Imagine having to answer on
startup whether you want the palettes to disappear when you open the script
editor, and whether you want an HTTP proxy, and what colour you want your
selection handles to be, and whether you would like to see default handlers
in the handler list, and whether you would like to see property labels
instead of property names in the property inspector.

Surely the most sensible route here is to decide on defaults and see if
people for whom those defaults are relevant have any objections? I'm not
sure it is necessary to be offended on behalf of hypothetical new users :-)
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Ali Lloyd via use-livecode]

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 5:58 PM Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> How about *offering* to put up the backdrop for the tutorial, rather than
> imposing it?
>

Well, we were acting in direct response to a whole lot of feedback from new
users who didn't seem to like the idea of seeing 'through' LiveCode to
their desktops.

If we get corresponding feedback that they *don't* like having the backdrop
(we didn't get such feedback at the first user testing) then we would for
sure make it an option. But honestly, the fewer questions a user is asked
about their default preferences the better. Imagine having to answer on
startup whether you want the palettes to disappear when you open the script
editor, and whether you want an HTTP proxy, and what colour you want your
selection handles to be, and whether you would like to see default handlers
in the handler list, and whether you would like to see property labels
instead of property names in the property inspector.

Surely the most sensible route here is to decide on defaults and see if
people for whom those defaults are relevant have any objections? I'm not
sure it is necessary to be offended on behalf of hypothetical new users :-)
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Roger Eller via use-livecode]

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 1:04 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 7/19/17 7:15 pm, Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 8:55 PM, Monte Goulding via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>>   Looking at the PR it was meant to only set the backdrop if users were
>>> still in the first run mode of the start center.
>>>
>>
>> Uhm . . . why would anyone think that that would be a *good* thing?   I
>> react to my screen being seized as a hostile act.
>>
>> I didn't even realize that it was livecode that had attached me; initially
>> I assumed an OS glitch.
>>
>> When I saw that my desktop came back when I switched applications, and was
>> seized again when livecode resumed, I tried preferences, and didn't see
>> anything.
>>
>> Eventually. I tried view, and found a "backdrop" setting set, and turned
>> that off.
>>
>> I had never heard of backdrop before, and would have had no idea to try to
>> deal with it in the message box.
>>
>
> That's funny; that backdrop goes back to at least the Free revMedia thing.
>
>
MetaCard had the backdrop.  I used it on IRIX, and it was wonderful to
isolate the coding environment from the other stuff.  In fact, other very
expensive high-end graphics software we used did exactly the same thing.
The graphics system set a neutral gray backdrop to enable the user to make
subtle color edits to photographs of food.  The idea was that the
neutrality of the gray backdrop would not interfere with your
interpretation of color, as the surrounding colors do actually affect your
visual perception.  So, yeah.  I have a background in graphics which
incidentally makes me like the backdrop.

~Roger
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Jerry Jensen via use-livecode]

+1

> On Jul 19, 2017, at 9:15 AM, Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Uhm . . . why would anyone think that that would be a *good* thing?   I
> react to my screen being seized as a hostile act.


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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode]

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 10:04 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 7/19/17 7:15 pm, Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode wrote:
>
>>
>> I had never heard of backdrop before, and would have had no idea to try to
>> deal with it in the message box.
>>
>
> That's funny; that backdrop goes back to at least the Free revMedia thing
>

*shrug*

There's *lots* in livecode that I've never investigated, even in the
pulldowns.

I *can* say that if the version 5 preview/introductory had acted like this,
there is *very* little chance that I would be using livecode today (or even
later that afternoon . . .)


-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

"Virgin" on the ridiculous . . .

sorry, that one was just too good to resist.

Richmond.

On 7/19/17 7:50 pm, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:

On 07/19/2017 04:49 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:


I'm honestly struggling to understand the problem here


Do this on linux:
(might be a good idea to have a terminal window running already)
(especially on a second monitor)

install rc2
launch a virgin installation of rc2
see the backdrop take over the screen
quit the IDE

launch LC (any version) again



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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 19:04, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

On 7/19/17 7:15 pm, Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode wrote:
I had never heard of backdrop before, and would have had no idea to 
try to

deal with it in the message box.


That's funny; that backdrop goes back to at least the Free revMedia 
thing.


The backdrop has been there as a feature for as long as I can remember.

I'm pretty sure it was in MetaCard before it was ported to non UNIX 
platforms (back then you *could* actually set a background window with 
an appropriate hint that worked with the X11 Window Managers as they 
didn't tend to work in concert with 'desktops' which use that hint to 
make the Desktop window you see on all modern distros - if you use that 
class of window now, your backdrop window disappears behind the Desktop 
- which isn't quite what is wanted, generally ;)).


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 07/19/2017 09:55 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

However, in context of my post - I was more talking about 'not being 
able to see the problem with the idea of putting the backdrop on by 
default for first-run users to ensure that the tutorials are as easy to 
follow as possible and thus ensure they get the best experience' which 
seemed to the 'problem' at that point...


OK - got it.
I think A/B testing is a worthwhile goal, and I think first-run backdrop 
initialization may well turn out to be a good idea (with a *very* 
visible button to disable/enable it on the welcome screen).


But please don't do this sort of feature testing in rc builds.
Whatever happened to dp releases anyway?

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com


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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Roger Eller via use-livecode]

Thanks, Panos!  That worked.  I changed the arrangement of my Mac screens,
so I guess it was stranded.

~Roger


On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 10:42 AM, panagiotis merakos via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> @Roger:
>
> Could it be the case that the Preferences stack does open, but somehow it
> goes offscreen?
>
> - Open Prefs
> - If you don't see the window, type in the msg box:
>
> set the loc of stack revpreferencesGUI to the screenloc
>
> Best,
>
> Panos
>
> --
>
> On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Roger Eller via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Every version I have, 6.x, 7.x, 8.x, all black, Mac or Windows.  Odd
> thing
> > though, on OS X 10.11.6, versions 8.1.4 and 8.1.5 will not open
> > Preferences.
> >
> > ~Roger
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Dunno: I get grey.
> > >
> > > Richmond.
> > >
> > > On 7/19/17 2:58 pm, Roger Eller via use-livecode wrote:
> > >
> > >> When I toggle the backdrop ON, why is it black, rather than something
> > like
> > >> "lightgray" which is more like the Tools and menu portion of the IDE?
> > >> Black as the default feels like a mistake?
> > >>
> > >> ~Roger
> > >>
> > >>
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

On 7/19/17 7:15 pm, Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode wrote:

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 8:55 PM, Monte Goulding via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:


  Looking at the PR it was meant to only set the backdrop if users were
still in the first run mode of the start center.


Uhm . . . why would anyone think that that would be a *good* thing?   I
react to my screen being seized as a hostile act.

I didn't even realize that it was livecode that had attached me; initially
I assumed an OS glitch.

When I saw that my desktop came back when I switched applications, and was
seized again when livecode resumed, I tried preferences, and didn't see
anything.

Eventually. I tried view, and found a "backdrop" setting set, and turned
that off.

I had never heard of backdrop before, and would have had no idea to try to
deal with it in the message box.


That's funny; that backdrop goes back to at least the Free revMedia thing.

Richmond.


Also, *every* time rc2 launches, it r4ets this preference.

I find the notion that new users need the computer taken away from them
rather condescending . . .





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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode]

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 9:55 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> However, in context of my post - I was more talking about 'not being able
> to see the problem with the idea of putting the backdrop on by default for
> first-run users to ensure that the tutorials are as easy to follow as
> possible and thus ensure they get the best experience' which seemed to the
> 'problem' at that point...


How about *offering* to put up the backdrop for the tutorial, rather than
imposing it?

My immediate reaction to discovering a program thought itself sIt's mo
important that it should block out the rest has always been rather
hostile--to the level I quit the program and don't go back.

 It's my screen, with the things I'm doing, set the way I want.  It's not
for a new potential program to decide I'm wrong.
-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 18:50, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:

On 07/19/2017 04:49 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:


I'm honestly struggling to understand the problem here


Do this on linux:
(might be a good idea to have a terminal window running already)
(especially on a second monitor)

install rc2
launch a virgin installation of rc2
see the backdrop take over the screen
quit the IDE

launch LC (any version) again


Right - yes - we identified that was a problem (one we didn't intend) - 
and that was commented on many many posts ago :)


However, in context of my post - I was more talking about 'not being 
able to see the problem with the idea of putting the backdrop on by 
default for first-run users to ensure that the tutorials are as easy to 
follow as possible and thus ensure they get the best experience' which 
seemed to the 'problem' at that point...


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
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LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 07/19/2017 04:49 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:


I'm honestly struggling to understand the problem here


Do this on linux:
(might be a good idea to have a terminal window running already)
(especially on a second monitor)

install rc2
launch a virgin installation of rc2
see the backdrop take over the screen
quit the IDE

launch LC (any version) again

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode]

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 8:55 PM, Monte Goulding via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>  Looking at the PR it was meant to only set the backdrop if users were
> still in the first run mode of the start center.


Uhm . . . why would anyone think that that would be a *good* thing?   I
react to my screen being seized as a hostile act.

I didn't even realize that it was livecode that had attached me; initially
I assumed an OS glitch.

When I saw that my desktop came back when I switched applications, and was
seized again when livecode resumed, I tried preferences, and didn't see
anything.

Eventually. I tried view, and found a "backdrop" setting set, and turned
that off.

I had never heard of backdrop before, and would have had no idea to try to
deal with it in the message box.

Also, *every* time rc2 launches, it r4ets this preference.

I find the notion that new users need the computer taken away from them
rather condescending . . .


-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Proof of concept:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/suhwepaw39tqlp8/Backdropper.livecode.zip?dl=0

Richmond.

On 7/19/17 2:55 pm, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2017-07-19 13:19, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

I've just run 8.1.6 past "my kiddos" (even though their summer classes
have finished it is amazing
what happens when I write "ice cream" on Facebook) and about
half of them liked the backdrop, but none of them like the backdrop
"as a boring colour".

This is where we get all Shakespearian and start wombling on about "on
which to stay one's eye".

I tried them with a backdrop consisting of a textured colour (dark
green tweed sort of thing)
and they liked that a lot.


Thanks for the feedback :)

I've passed it to be included with the results of the most recent user 
testing session we have done.



You owe me 15 choc-ices.


Think of it as a contribution to supporting the LiveCode project ;)

Warmest Regards,

Mark.



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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 16:26, Roger Eller via use-livecode wrote:
Every version I have, 6.x, 7.x, 8.x, all black, Mac or Windows.  Odd 
thing
though, on OS X 10.11.6, versions 8.1.4 and 8.1.5 will not open 
Preferences.


Have you opened 8.1.6-rc-2?

Prior to 8.1.6-rc-2 the default set in the IDE (if it has not been 
previously set, or set when 'reset preferences' is clicked) is black.


In 8.1.6-rc-2 it changes the default to light grey - which is probably 
causing the distinction.


I suspect Panos has your answer (hopefully!) for why your prefs window 
is AWOL in all your versions...


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
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LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[panagiotis merakos via use-livecode]

@Roger:

Could it be the case that the Preferences stack does open, but somehow it
goes offscreen?

- Open Prefs
- If you don't see the window, type in the msg box:

set the loc of stack revpreferencesGUI to the screenloc

Best,

Panos

--

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Roger Eller via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Every version I have, 6.x, 7.x, 8.x, all black, Mac or Windows.  Odd thing
> though, on OS X 10.11.6, versions 8.1.4 and 8.1.5 will not open
> Preferences.
>
> ~Roger
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Dunno: I get grey.
> >
> > Richmond.
> >
> > On 7/19/17 2:58 pm, Roger Eller via use-livecode wrote:
> >
> >> When I toggle the backdrop ON, why is it black, rather than something
> like
> >> "lightgray" which is more like the Tools and menu portion of the IDE?
> >> Black as the default feels like a mistake?
> >>
> >> ~Roger
> >>
> >>
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Roger Eller via use-livecode]

Every version I have, 6.x, 7.x, 8.x, all black, Mac or Windows.  Odd thing
though, on OS X 10.11.6, versions 8.1.4 and 8.1.5 will not open Preferences.

~Roger


On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Dunno: I get grey.
>
> Richmond.
>
> On 7/19/17 2:58 pm, Roger Eller via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> When I toggle the backdrop ON, why is it black, rather than something like
>> "lightgray" which is more like the Tools and menu portion of the IDE?
>> Black as the default feels like a mistake?
>>
>> ~Roger
>>
>>
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Dunno: I get grey.

Richmond.

On 7/19/17 2:58 pm, Roger Eller via use-livecode wrote:

When I toggle the backdrop ON, why is it black, rather than something like
"lightgray" which is more like the Tools and menu portion of the IDE?
Black as the default feels like a mistake?

~Roger
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 13:58, Roger Eller via use-livecode wrote:
When I toggle the backdrop ON, why is it black, rather than something 
like

"lightgray" which is more like the Tools and menu portion of the IDE?
Black as the default feels like a mistake?


The backdrop color can be configured as a preference... It just so 
happens that the default there is black:


http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=20128

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
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LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Roger Eller via use-livecode]

When I toggle the backdrop ON, why is it black, rather than something like
"lightgray" which is more like the Tools and menu portion of the IDE?
Black as the default feels like a mistake?

~Roger
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 13:19, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

I've just run 8.1.6 past "my kiddos" (even though their summer classes
have finished it is amazing
what happens when I write "ice cream" on Facebook) and about
half of them liked the backdrop, but none of them like the backdrop
"as a boring colour".

This is where we get all Shakespearian and start wombling on about "on
which to stay one's eye".

I tried them with a backdrop consisting of a textured colour (dark
green tweed sort of thing)
and they liked that a lot.


Thanks for the feedback :)

I've passed it to be included with the results of the most recent user 
testing session we have done.



You owe me 15 choc-ices.


Think of it as a contribution to supporting the LiveCode project ;)

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 13:40, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

How many of those brand new users are going to start teaching
themselves LiveCode at home, and how many are going
to go through a guided course in LiveCode in some kind of classroom 
setting?


Most are going to be going through it from home or office on their own, 
after they have discovered us through the web, traversed our web pages 
and downloaded. (Unless, of course, there is a hidden world of 
'underground' LiveCode classrooms no-one at here is aware of and which 
would explain the 1000's of NEW downloads we get on a weekly basis).



The biggish, bold font in the scriptEditor is useful (for me) in that
I can sit in the middle of a room with computers lining the walls
and talk to indvidual kids about their scripting without shifting my
b** too much.


Right - so you already configure LiveCode on the machines your students 
use to teach in the style you are accustomed - I also suspect you turn 
first run mode off (or have done, even if you didn't realise you did).


I think it is reasonable to expect teachers to have to configure the 
environment of the tools they are teaching to their pupils - it seems 
like standard practice in any teaching environment to me (at least in 
the first instance before you've explained the configurability of the 
tool to said pupils in a lesson at some point, assuming that you do).


You are talking about this being 'enforced'. It is not. It is currently 
(in 8.1.6-rc-2) the default setting in *first run* mode only (which is 
configurable as a preference, like script editor font etc.). It can be 
turned off - because all that is happening is that the 'show backdrop' 
option is being turned ON if it has not been set, if 'First Run' is also 
ON.


I'm honestly struggling to understand the problem here (beyond the *BUG* 
that meant the backdrop is actually being turned on when not in First 
Run mode - which it should not be and I've already said will be resolved 
in RC-3).


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
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LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

On 7/19/17 2:32 pm, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2017-07-19 13:25, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

"the question is this:"

How many new users of LiveCode are actually "brand new" in the sense
that they have NO computer programming
experience at all?


A significant enough percentage to make it worthwhile a vector to 
consider.


How many of those brand new users are going to start teaching themselves 
LiveCode at home, and how many are going

to go through a guided course in LiveCode in some kind of classroom setting?

In the latter case I jalouse decisions about whether to use a backdrop 
and so on would be taken by the instructor rather than left to the 
pupils/students.


For instance, on ALL the computers in my school I have the textSize in 
the scriptEditor jacked up to 18 using Charcoal.ttf on Macs and Ubuntu 
Bold.ttf on

Xubuntu, and with the "classic" colourisation.

The biggish, bold font in the scriptEditor is useful (for me) in that I 
can sit in the middle of a room with computers lining the walls
and talk to indvidual kids about their scripting without shifting my b** 
too much.


Richmond.



How many brand new users are going to be "freaked out" when the
desktop "they know and love" vanishes without a particularly obvious
way to make it reappear without quitting LiveCode?


That is a very good question, and one which will hopefully answer 
itself from testing it out.


The important point here is perhaps that 'discovery' of how to 
configure these things might need to be improved (e.g. hints / 
explanations etc.) should it turn out to be a problem.



Is this 'reappearance' of an enforced backdrop (Yes, Sports fans, it
came up way back) a 'fudge' to keep people who are rooting for a
unified tiddley-pom
(what's it called?) of your collective back?


No it is not a replacement for anything which might happen in the future.

Indeed, as things from the future don't exist *now*, it can't be a 
replacement or fudge or any other way you might want to express it.


It is working with what we have right now and trying things out to see 
if they make what we have right now, better (for appropriate 
definitions of 'better' - in this case, does it make LiveCode 'better' 
for starting out from scratch).


Warmest Regards,

Mark.




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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

In English:

Each to his own taste, but this is not a choice.
I want a short, alcoholic French drink to settle my stomach.

In Lallans (Scots):

Ilka mon mun dree his ain wierd, but its nae his ain juist nou,
an Ahm ettlin fae sic tae settle masen.

I do not stretch very far with German, I'm afraid.

On 7/19/17 2:28 pm, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote:

I am sorry, but my French is not so good. Google translate gave me the 
following translation to English:

* Everyone to his taste but this, o, ent it is not a choice!
I would like a digestive.

But still wondering what you wanted to say.
(The German translation was even more confusing)




Matthias Rebbe
+49 5741 31
‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌


Am 19.07.2017 um 12:54 schrieb Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
>:

*Chacun à son gôut mais à ce ,o,ent c'est pas un choix!

Je voudrais un digestif.

Richmond.
*
On 7/19/17 1:17 pm, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote:

Me too. Especially when my desktop is once again messy. And that happens quite 
often.

The backdrop function in LC even made me write a little tool which does 
something similar and layers over the whole desktop to hide the mess. Very 
useful when i demonstrate something to others on my computer.

Matthias


Matthias Rebbe
+49 5741 31
‌matthiasrebbe.eu  >‌


Am 19.07.2017 um 11:10 schrieb Roger Eller via use-livecode  >>:

Personally, I have always liked, and often used a light gray backdrop to
minimize distractions from the OS.  It makes LiveCode feel more like a
unified environment.

~Roger

On Jul 19, 2017 4:55 AM, "Mark Waddingham via use-livecode" <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com  
>> wrote:


On 2017-07-19 08:56, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:


Even that is a "load of old Bollo"; I'm sure that a lot of people
trying out LiveCode for the first time
are going to go "gae quair" when they see their desktop vanish.


Possibly - but until you test such a thing, a statement either way is just
conjecture... Hence why we are testing it!

Admittedly, this was perhaps a slightly riskier test then something like
the handler menu; although had it actually *only* affected people who were
still in 'first run' mode... No-one on this list would have probably
noticed, thus it would not have occasioned any comment.

There will be an RC-3 which fixes that problem at least - whether or not
the auto-backdrop will be kept (in first run mode) will be largely down to
what the analysis of results of the testing say.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
>
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Matthias Rebbe
+49 5741 31
‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 13:25, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

"the question is this:"

How many new users of LiveCode are actually "brand new" in the sense
that they have NO computer programming
experience at all?


A significant enough percentage to make it worthwhile a vector to 
consider.



How many brand new users are going to be "freaked out" when the
desktop "they know and love" vanishes without a particularly obvious
way to make it reappear without quitting LiveCode?


That is a very good question, and one which will hopefully answer itself 
from testing it out.


The important point here is perhaps that 'discovery' of how to configure 
these things might need to be improved (e.g. hints / explanations etc.) 
should it turn out to be a problem.



Is this 'reappearance' of an enforced backdrop (Yes, Sports fans, it
came up way back) a 'fudge' to keep people who are rooting for a
unified tiddley-pom
(what's it called?) of your collective back?


No it is not a replacement for anything which might happen in the 
future.


Indeed, as things from the future don't exist *now*, it can't be a 
replacement or fudge or any other way you might want to express it.


It is working with what we have right now and trying things out to see 
if they make what we have right now, better (for appropriate definitions 
of 'better' - in this case, does it make LiveCode 'better' for starting 
out from scratch).


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode]

I am sorry, but my French is not so good. Google translate gave me the 
following translation to English:

* Everyone to his taste but this, o, ent it is not a choice!
I would like a digestive.

But still wondering what you wanted to say.
(The German translation was even more confusing)




Matthias Rebbe
+49 5741 31
‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌

> Am 19.07.2017 um 12:54 schrieb Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
> >:
> 
> *Chacun à son gôut mais à ce ,o,ent c'est pas un choix!
> 
> Je voudrais un digestif.
> 
> Richmond.
> *
> On 7/19/17 1:17 pm, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote:
>> Me too. Especially when my desktop is once again messy. And that happens 
>> quite often.
>> 
>> The backdrop function in LC even made me write a little tool which does 
>> something similar and layers over the whole desktop to hide the mess. Very 
>> useful when i demonstrate something to others on my computer.
>> 
>> Matthias
>> 
>> 
>> Matthias Rebbe
>> +49 5741 31
>> ‌matthiasrebbe.eu  > >‌
>> 
>>> Am 19.07.2017 um 11:10 schrieb Roger Eller via use-livecode 
>>>  
>>> >> >>:
>>> 
>>> Personally, I have always liked, and often used a light gray backdrop to
>>> minimize distractions from the OS.  It makes LiveCode feel more like a
>>> unified environment.
>>> 
>>> ~Roger
>>> 
>>> On Jul 19, 2017 4:55 AM, "Mark Waddingham via use-livecode" <
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com  
>>> >> >> wrote:
>>> 
 On 2017-07-19 08:56, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:
 
> Even that is a "load of old Bollo"; I'm sure that a lot of people
> trying out LiveCode for the first time
> are going to go "gae quair" when they see their desktop vanish.
> 
 Possibly - but until you test such a thing, a statement either way is just
 conjecture... Hence why we are testing it!
 
 Admittedly, this was perhaps a slightly riskier test then something like
 the handler menu; although had it actually *only* affected people who were
 still in 'first run' mode... No-one on this list would have probably
 noticed, thus it would not have occasioned any comment.
 
 There will be an RC-3 which fixes that problem at least - whether or not
 the auto-backdrop will be kept (in first run mode) will be largely down to
 what the analysis of results of the testing say.
 
 Warmest Regards,
 
 Mark.
 
 --
 Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com 
 > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
 >
 LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
 
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 >
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 subscription preferences:
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>>> ___
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+49 5741 31
‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

"the question is this:"

How many new users of LiveCode are actually "brand new" in the sense 
that they have NO computer programming

experience at all?

And a few supplementary questions:

How many brand new users are going to be "freaked out" when the desktop 
"they know and love" vanishes without a particularly obvious

way to make it reappear without quitting LiveCode?

Is this 'reappearance' of an enforced backdrop (Yes, Sports fans, it 
came up way back) a 'fudge' to keep people who are rooting for a unified 
tiddley-pom

(what's it called?) of your collective back?

Richmond.

On 7/19/17 2:14 pm, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2017-07-19 12:50, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

Lumpy custard!


Just like your grandmother used to make?* ;)


Other people who have commented on this are all "on this list";
otherwise they would have been unable to comment.


Indeed - my point was simply that due to a bug which we obviously did 
not notice before release, the default backdrop ON option was not 
limited to those who were experiencing the 'first run' of the product. 
Thus meaning, that it affected existing users (which was not our intent).



What kind of 'analysis' would that constitute?


So, at the user testing session, copious notes are taken, and 
discussed afterwards. We also ask people involved to write up their 
experience and give us feedback on specific points (and generally), 
these are also discussed. This then allows us to have some idea how 
'good' an idea is - i.e. whether it is worth its cost balanced against 
its effectiveness.


In this case, the question is this:

For brand new users of LiveCode, who have never seen it before (and 
quite possibly never used a programming environment before) does 
having a backdrop in place initially help them in their first steps 
with the product, particularly from the point of view of doing the 
first run tutorials.


This is of course a slightly wooly and subjective question. However, 
it is probably a good idea if over 50% of people we try it out on 
(from various different groups - with different backgrounds) think it 
has actually 'helped'.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

P.S. As a child, I used to frequently comment on the consistency of my 
grandmother's custard... Her general response was "You grandfather 
likes it thick, boy!"




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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

I've just run 8.1.6 past "my kiddos" (even though their summer classes 
have finished it is amazing

what happens when I write "ice cream" on Facebook) and about
half of them liked the backdrop, but none of them like the backdrop "as 
a boring colour".


This is where we get all Shakespearian and start wombling on about "on 
which to stay one's eye".


I tried them with a backdrop consisting of a textured colour (dark green 
tweed sort of thing)

and they liked that a lot.

You owe me 15 choc-ices.

Richmond.

On 7/19/17 2:14 pm, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2017-07-19 12:50, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

Lumpy custard!


Just like your grandmother used to make?* ;)


Other people who have commented on this are all "on this list";
otherwise they would have been unable to comment.


Indeed - my point was simply that due to a bug which we obviously did 
not notice before release, the default backdrop ON option was not 
limited to those who were experiencing the 'first run' of the product. 
Thus meaning, that it affected existing users (which was not our intent).



What kind of 'analysis' would that constitute?


So, at the user testing session, copious notes are taken, and 
discussed afterwards. We also ask people involved to write up their 
experience and give us feedback on specific points (and generally), 
these are also discussed. This then allows us to have some idea how 
'good' an idea is - i.e. whether it is worth its cost balanced against 
its effectiveness.


In this case, the question is this:

For brand new users of LiveCode, who have never seen it before (and 
quite possibly never used a programming environment before) does 
having a backdrop in place initially help them in their first steps 
with the product, particularly from the point of view of doing the 
first run tutorials.


This is of course a slightly wooly and subjective question. However, 
it is probably a good idea if over 50% of people we try it out on 
(from various different groups - with different backgrounds) think it 
has actually 'helped'.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

P.S. As a child, I used to frequently comment on the consistency of my 
grandmother's custard... Her general response was "You grandfather 
likes it thick, boy!"




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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 12:50, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

Lumpy custard!


Just like your grandmother used to make?* ;)


Other people who have commented on this are all "on this list";
otherwise they would have been unable to comment.


Indeed - my point was simply that due to a bug which we obviously did 
not notice before release, the default backdrop ON option was not 
limited to those who were experiencing the 'first run' of the product. 
Thus meaning, that it affected existing users (which was not our 
intent).



What kind of 'analysis' would that constitute?


So, at the user testing session, copious notes are taken, and discussed 
afterwards. We also ask people involved to write up their experience and 
give us feedback on specific points (and generally), these are also 
discussed. This then allows us to have some idea how 'good' an idea is - 
i.e. whether it is worth its cost balanced against its effectiveness.


In this case, the question is this:

For brand new users of LiveCode, who have never seen it before (and 
quite possibly never used a programming environment before) does having 
a backdrop in place initially help them in their first steps with the 
product, particularly from the point of view of doing the first run 
tutorials.


This is of course a slightly wooly and subjective question. However, it 
is probably a good idea if over 50% of people we try it out on (from 
various different groups - with different backgrounds) think it has 
actually 'helped'.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

P.S. As a child, I used to frequently comment on the consistency of my 
grandmother's custard... Her general response was "You grandfather likes 
it thick, boy!"


--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps


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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Roger Eller via use-livecode]

As Mark Waddingham expressed, it was only a test.  At least it wasn't
tested in a GM release.  All the fuss about it making LC unusable is a
stretch.

Matthias gave me an idea, so I made a small stack containing the image
which is applied to my desktop as a background, and I saved that to my
plugins folder.  EASY way to clean the desktop of icon mess!!!

This would be a great standard menu item: "Use my desktop image as
backdrop".

~Roger


On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 6:54 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> *Chacun à son gôut mais à ce ,o,ent c'est pas un choix!
>
> Je voudrais un digestif.
>
> Richmond.
> *
> On 7/19/17 1:17 pm, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> Me too. Especially when my desktop is once again messy. And that happens
>> quite often.
>>
>> The backdrop function in LC even made me write a little tool which does
>> something similar and layers over the whole desktop to hide the mess. Very
>> useful when i demonstrate something to others on my computer.
>>
>> Matthias
>>
>>
>> Matthias Rebbe
>> +49 5741 31
>> ‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌
>>
>> Am 19.07.2017 um 11:10 schrieb Roger Eller via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com >:
>>>
>>> Personally, I have always liked, and often used a light gray backdrop to
>>> minimize distractions from the OS.  It makes LiveCode feel more like a
>>> unified environment.
>>>
>>> ~Roger
>>>
>>>
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

*Chacun à son gôut mais à ce ,o,ent c'est pas un choix!

Je voudrais un digestif.

Richmond.
*
On 7/19/17 1:17 pm, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote:

Me too. Especially when my desktop is once again messy. And that happens quite 
often.

The backdrop function in LC even made me write a little tool which does 
something similar and layers over the whole desktop to hide the mess. Very 
useful when i demonstrate something to others on my computer.

Matthias


Matthias Rebbe
+49 5741 31
‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌


Am 19.07.2017 um 11:10 schrieb Roger Eller via use-livecode 
>:

Personally, I have always liked, and often used a light gray backdrop to
minimize distractions from the OS.  It makes LiveCode feel more like a
unified environment.

~Roger

On Jul 19, 2017 4:55 AM, "Mark Waddingham via use-livecode" <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


On 2017-07-19 08:56, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:


Even that is a "load of old Bollo"; I'm sure that a lot of people
trying out LiveCode for the first time
are going to go "gae quair" when they see their desktop vanish.


Possibly - but until you test such a thing, a statement either way is just
conjecture... Hence why we are testing it!

Admittedly, this was perhaps a slightly riskier test then something like
the handler menu; although had it actually *only* affected people who were
still in 'first run' mode... No-one on this list would have probably
noticed, thus it would not have occasioned any comment.

There will be an RC-3 which fixes that problem at least - whether or not
the auto-backdrop will be kept (in first run mode) will be largely down to
what the analysis of results of the testing say.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com  ~ 
http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

On 7/19/17 11:55 am, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2017-07-19 08:56, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

Even that is a "load of old Bollo"; I'm sure that a lot of people
trying out LiveCode for the first time
are going to go "gae quair" when they see their desktop vanish.


Possibly - but until you test such a thing, a statement either way is 
just conjecture... Hence why we are testing it!


Admittedly, this was perhaps a slightly riskier test then something 
like the handler menu; although had it actually *only* affected people 
who were still in 'first run' mode... No-one on this list would have 
probably noticed, thus it would not have occasioned any comment.


Lumpy custard!

Other people who have commented on this are all "on this list"; 
otherwise they would have been unable to comment.


I noticed the backdrop because "there it was" when, having installed 
8.1.6 RC 2, I started it up (Mac OS).


I have just installed that on Linux (64-bit) and got the backdrop at 
startup as well.


I did say a "few rude words", but did not bother to comment on it until 
others raised the issue as it

did not fuss me unduly . . .



There will be an RC-3 which fixes that problem at least - whether or 
not the auto-backdrop will be kept (in first run mode) will be largely 
down to what the analysis of results of the testing say.


What kind of 'analysis' would that constitute?

Richmond.



Warmest Regards,

Mark.




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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode]

Me too. Especially when my desktop is once again messy. And that happens quite 
often.

The backdrop function in LC even made me write a little tool which does 
something similar and layers over the whole desktop to hide the mess. Very 
useful when i demonstrate something to others on my computer. 

Matthias


Matthias Rebbe
+49 5741 31
‌matthiasrebbe.eu ‌

> Am 19.07.2017 um 11:10 schrieb Roger Eller via use-livecode 
> >:
> 
> Personally, I have always liked, and often used a light gray backdrop to
> minimize distractions from the OS.  It makes LiveCode feel more like a
> unified environment.
> 
> ~Roger
> 
> On Jul 19, 2017 4:55 AM, "Mark Waddingham via use-livecode" <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:
> 
>> On 2017-07-19 08:56, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:
>> 
>>> Even that is a "load of old Bollo"; I'm sure that a lot of people
>>> trying out LiveCode for the first time
>>> are going to go "gae quair" when they see their desktop vanish.
>>> 
>> 
>> Possibly - but until you test such a thing, a statement either way is just
>> conjecture... Hence why we are testing it!
>> 
>> Admittedly, this was perhaps a slightly riskier test then something like
>> the handler menu; although had it actually *only* affected people who were
>> still in 'first run' mode... No-one on this list would have probably
>> noticed, thus it would not have occasioned any comment.
>> 
>> There will be an RC-3 which fixes that problem at least - whether or not
>> the auto-backdrop will be kept (in first run mode) will be largely down to
>> what the analysis of results of the testing say.
>> 
>> Warmest Regards,
>> 
>> Mark.
>> 
>> --
>> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com  ~ 
>> http://www.livecode.com/ 
>> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
>> 
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Roger Eller via use-livecode]

Personally, I have always liked, and often used a light gray backdrop to
minimize distractions from the OS.  It makes LiveCode feel more like a
unified environment.

~Roger

On Jul 19, 2017 4:55 AM, "Mark Waddingham via use-livecode" <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 2017-07-19 08:56, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> Even that is a "load of old Bollo"; I'm sure that a lot of people
>> trying out LiveCode for the first time
>> are going to go "gae quair" when they see their desktop vanish.
>>
>
> Possibly - but until you test such a thing, a statement either way is just
> conjecture... Hence why we are testing it!
>
> Admittedly, this was perhaps a slightly riskier test then something like
> the handler menu; although had it actually *only* affected people who were
> still in 'first run' mode... No-one on this list would have probably
> noticed, thus it would not have occasioned any comment.
>
> There will be an RC-3 which fixes that problem at least - whether or not
> the auto-backdrop will be kept (in first run mode) will be largely down to
> what the analysis of results of the testing say.
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Mark.
>
> --
> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
>
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-19 08:56, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

Even that is a "load of old Bollo"; I'm sure that a lot of people
trying out LiveCode for the first time
are going to go "gae quair" when they see their desktop vanish.


Possibly - but until you test such a thing, a statement either way is 
just conjecture... Hence why we are testing it!


Admittedly, this was perhaps a slightly riskier test then something like 
the handler menu; although had it actually *only* affected people who 
were still in 'first run' mode... No-one on this list would have 
probably noticed, thus it would not have occasioned any comment.


There will be an RC-3 which fixes that problem at least - whether or not 
the auto-backdrop will be kept (in first run mode) will be largely down 
to what the analysis of results of the testing say.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
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LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[hh via use-livecode]

The backdrop is a problem for the linux platform since I'm with LiveCode (4 
years now). If you ever click on linux into the backdrop you are lost.
That's why this was my first Raspi stack: a 'work-around' for that.
(Raspi stacks collection #1)
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

"only set the backdrop if users were still in the first run mode of the 
start center."


Even that is a "load of old Bollo"; I'm sure that a lot of people trying 
out LiveCode for the first time

are going to go "gae quair" when they see their desktop vanish.

I really wonder if anyone, anywhere ever uses the backdrop?

Richmond.


On 7/19/17 6:55 am, Monte Goulding via use-livecode wrote:

On 19 Jul 2017, at 1:42 pm, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Yep. LiveCode (any version) is now completely unusable for me.

Completely unusable might be overstating things a touch don’t you think? There is 
a menu to remove the backdrop (View > Backdrop). Looking at the PR it was meant 
to only set the backdrop if users were still in the first run mode of the start 
center. We will need to investigate why it has impacted others.

Cheers

Monte
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

I got that as well ; not good.

Richmond.

On 7/19/17 2:37 am, Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode wrote:

I haven't seen this type of user abuse since StarOffice 4 . . .

Opening 8.1.6-rc2 turns on a backdrop. (Mac Sierra)

Even worse, it sets a default so that launching RC1 has that backdrop.

It took me a while to figure out what the evil sheet over my desktop was .
. .

(staroffice 4 bit into that "take over the whole screen, and *we* are the
windowing authority.  I stayed with 3 until 5 came out . . .)



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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Ali Lloyd via use-livecode]

Do your keyboard shortcuts work Mark? You could use Ctrl+M to pop open the
message box, and set the backdrop to none, then toggle it on and off via
the View menu, then hopefully it should be gone from your preferences.

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 6:25 AM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Don't know if it helps, but I didn't see this behavior. I frequently turn
> on the backdrop when screen sharing and turn it off later. I wonder if the
> problem only occurs if there is no preference set yet?
>
> Mac OS X El Capitan.
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
>
>
> On July 18, 2017 11:12:23 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode
>  wrote:
>
> > On 07/18/2017 08:55 PM, Monte Goulding via use-livecode wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 19 Jul 2017, at 1:42 pm, Mark Wieder via use-livecode
> >>>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Yep. LiveCode (any version) is now completely unusable for me.
> >>
> >> Completely unusable might be overstating things a touch don’t you think?
> >> There is a menu to remove the backdrop (View > Backdrop). Looking at
> the PR
> >> it was meant to only set the backdrop if users were still in the first
> run
> >> mode of the start center. We will need to investigate why it has
> impacted
> >> others.
> >
> > Nothing but a backdrop. Takes over the screen. Everything else is hidden
> > behind the gray featureless backdrop. I had to alt-tab to a terminal
> > window (what if I didn't have one already running?) in order to kill -9
> > livecode.
> >
> > And that means that there's no way to access the menu to undo the
> > damage. I had to remove my preferences files (which incidentally grew by
> > a couple of orders of magnitude) and recreate them.
> >
> > No. I don't think that's overstating things *a touch*
> >
> > --
> >   Mark Wieder
> >   ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> >
> > ___
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

Don't know if it helps, but I didn't see this behavior. I frequently turn 
on the backdrop when screen sharing and turn it off later. I wonder if the 
problem only occurs if there is no preference set yet?


Mac OS X El Capitan.
--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



On July 18, 2017 11:12:23 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
 wrote:



On 07/18/2017 08:55 PM, Monte Goulding via use-livecode wrote:


On 19 Jul 2017, at 1:42 pm, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
 wrote:


Yep. LiveCode (any version) is now completely unusable for me.


Completely unusable might be overstating things a touch don’t you think? 
There is a menu to remove the backdrop (View > Backdrop). Looking at the PR 
it was meant to only set the backdrop if users were still in the first run 
mode of the start center. We will need to investigate why it has impacted 
others.


Nothing but a backdrop. Takes over the screen. Everything else is hidden
behind the gray featureless backdrop. I had to alt-tab to a terminal
window (what if I didn't have one already running?) in order to kill -9
livecode.

And that means that there's no way to access the menu to undo the
damage. I had to remove my preferences files (which incidentally grew by
a couple of orders of magnitude) and recreate them.

No. I don't think that's overstating things *a touch*

--
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Monte Goulding via use-livecode]

> On 19 Jul 2017, at 2:10 pm, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Nothing but a backdrop. Takes over the screen. Everything else is hidden 
> behind the gray featureless backdrop. I had to alt-tab to a terminal window 
> (what if I didn't have one already running?) in order to kill -9 livecode.
> 
> And that means that there's no way to access the menu to undo the damage. I 
> had to remove my preferences files (which incidentally grew by a couple of 
> orders of magnitude) and recreate them.
> 
> No. I don't think that's overstating things *a touch*


So you had no access to either the view menu to change the setting or the file 
menu to exit normally? That is odd and it appears you reported it a while ago 
http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17323 


Well a fix for one or the other is going to be a blocker for this release

Cheers

Monte
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 07/18/2017 08:55 PM, Monte Goulding via use-livecode wrote:



On 19 Jul 2017, at 1:42 pm, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Yep. LiveCode (any version) is now completely unusable for me.


Completely unusable might be overstating things a touch don’t you think? There is 
a menu to remove the backdrop (View > Backdrop). Looking at the PR it was meant 
to only set the backdrop if users were still in the first run mode of the start 
center. We will need to investigate why it has impacted others.


Nothing but a backdrop. Takes over the screen. Everything else is hidden 
behind the gray featureless backdrop. I had to alt-tab to a terminal 
window (what if I didn't have one already running?) in order to kill -9 
livecode.


And that means that there's no way to access the menu to undo the 
damage. I had to remove my preferences files (which incidentally grew by 
a couple of orders of magnitude) and recreate them.


No. I don't think that's overstating things *a touch*

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Monte Goulding via use-livecode]

> On 19 Jul 2017, at 1:42 pm, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Yep. LiveCode (any version) is now completely unusable for me.

Completely unusable might be overstating things a touch don’t you think? There 
is a menu to remove the backdrop (View > Backdrop). Looking at the PR it was 
meant to only set the backdrop if users were still in the first run mode of the 
start center. We will need to investigate why it has impacted others.

Cheers

Monte
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Re: Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 07/18/2017 04:37 PM, Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode wrote:

I haven't seen this type of user abuse since StarOffice 4 . . .

Opening 8.1.6-rc2 turns on a backdrop. (Mac Sierra)

Even worse, it sets a default so that launching RC1 has that backdrop.

It took me a while to figure out what the evil sheet over my desktop was .
. .

(staroffice 4 bit into that "take over the whole screen, and *we* are the
windowing authority.  I stayed with 3 until 5 came out . . .)



Yep. LiveCode (any version) is now completely unusable for me.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Bug 20117: new rc2 sets a backdrop, and preferences for same

[Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode]

I haven't seen this type of user abuse since StarOffice 4 . . .

Opening 8.1.6-rc2 turns on a backdrop. (Mac Sierra)

Even worse, it sets a default so that launching RC1 has that backdrop.

It took me a while to figure out what the evil sheet over my desktop was .
. .

(staroffice 4 bit into that "take over the whole screen, and *we* are the
windowing authority.  I stayed with 3 until 5 came out . . .)

-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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