Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Richmond Mathewson wrote:

> So, I wonder why there is not a way of putting one's iPad app onot the
> web in a way (and I don't mean via Cydia)
> that will allow people to download it onto their tablets
> independently, as one can do on an Android device?

Because China.  And maybe Singapore, and a few others.

Android has an inappropriate reputation for malware, mostly due to 
unscrupulous activities of some vendors in those regions.


True, given is vastly larger market size, there are more malware 
*attempts* on Android than iOS.


But in terms of actual exploits the numbers are very close:  most 
devices exploited have been altered from the default settings Google and 
Apple ship with.


Some carriers in Asia aren't shipping true Android phones.  What they're 
shipping are "Android-compatible", but they are not using the OS images 
provided by Google.  Android is open source so that's allowable, but to 
use the Android trademark they need to be a member of the Android 
Alliance, which requires following Google's security guidelines.  In 
countries like China, where intellectual property enforcement is more or 
less nonexistent, some even claim to be authentic "Android" devices.


Many of these have their own app stores, and they have the built-in 
protection against side-loading turned off so allow those custom apps 
stores to work easily.


While Google provides at least seven layers of security for apps 
distributed through Google Play, most of those are beyond the reach of 
side-loaded apps through these hastily tossed-together third-party app 
stores.


So on the rarer day when you see a tech journalist talking about actual 
exploits rather than number of mere attempts, if you read past the 
headlines you'll find that most of those exploits are occurring in Asian 
and other markets on non-authentic Android-compatible devices, where 
Google's security mechanisms have been bypassed.


In an ideal world, we'd recognize that everything connected to the 
Internet is vulnerable to one degree or another, and cybersecurity 
basics would be a required course in public school.  Beyond the reach of 
any OS vendor lie a nearly infinite variety of ways people can endanger 
their privacy, data security, or even physical safety through a mix of 
ignorance and a nearly complete lack of guidance from gadget vendors 
(ever see a smart car dealer discuss how to avoid having your car 
hijacked while you're driving it?).


But we don't live in an ideal world, and the average person apparently 
has little interest in investing the time needed to use 
Internet-connected devices safely (observe the widespread use of 
Facebook by people announcing their going on vacation, thus signaling to 
burglars which houses to target).


So for now vendors at least try to compensate for the public's apparent 
disinterest in their own safety.


Those who care deeply about using devices they have complete control 
over have plenty to choose from.  Linux has become the de facto standard 
for most forms of computing, and its license explicitly allows use for 
any purpose whatsoever without restriction of any kind, all the way down 
to guaranteeing source code availability.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

A very interesting read - thanks Curry :)

I guess I was very much focused on the specific clauses on downloading 
executable code - which is no longer just an Apple thing - Google's is now very 
similar (i.e. Stricter than it used to be) and I suspect the other app stores 
on android will follow suit.

I do think those clauses are about security (otherwise they seem to much of a 
blunt instrument) and from that point of view they can be considered reasonable 
(especially when the scale of the ecosystems is considered) - if incredibly 
irksome for us!

Of course other aspects of Apple's policies (and the fact it is their AppStore 
or nothing) are a different matter entirely - as you eloquently point out.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 11 Aug 2017, at 21:43, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Mark:
> 
> > I think Johnathan made the best point here - if you want into the
> > iOS world and the AppStore Apple provide you have to abide by their
> > rules. However, if you don't care about the AppStore, then just
> > jailbreak your phone and run free - no-one is stopping you.
> 
> > It is entirely your choice :)
> 
> No, it's not merely a personal matter by any stretch of the imagination. This 
> is a social and tech reality that affects all of us, our technological 
> environment. You are framing this as primarily a security matter to save the 
> masses, with a handy personal jail break or xCode opt-out that solves the 
> matter for any individual who feels differently. (No thanks on JB, nor do I 
> generally recommend that to others. Nor is my interest mainly personal, but 
> rather as a consultant and developer. I doubt most true end users feel comfy 
> with xCode, assuming they even have a Mac.) Sorry, I tend to be a frame 
> breaker! It's missing out on the bigger picture of Apple's system, and 
> similarly the impact of tech trends, not only from Apple but other major 
> players.
> 
> Much more complex, and it affects us far beyond our own choices. While 
> someone here is waxing poetic about the security benefits, at one time or 
> another someone has likely iPhoned that person's own data around insecurely 
> in ways that would alarm you! Perhaps it has happened to you too without your 
> knowledge. I've seen it too many times, very widespread. Often by people 
> working for a reputable company or providing a vital professional service, 
> but clueless or careless. Neither is the data completely secure even with 
> companies that are more careful - the masses don't realize that. At the same 
> time people are desensitized to sharing more data than ever. That makes them 
> - and through them, sometimes you - very vulnerable.
> 
> Security goes way beyond malware. Security is an integral part of Apple's 
> system, but it's not a system primarily for the sake of security. Fairly easy 
> to have safe apps outside of a particular app store. One way would be setting 
> up other download repositories that are checked. Another is using networked 
> antivirus systems, which are already popular and advanced.
> 
> Going beyond security - breaking that frame again - it's much bigger. 
> Richmond already had some good points, so maybe I don't need to add any, but 
> for example: Actual publishing standards and choices are not all about 
> security, quality, decency, and good style as advertised. Marketing versus 
> reality. What viewpoints, topics, or potentially beneficial technologies 
> might be suppressed? That would not be a big deal when there are multiple 
> venues, but when there is one
> 
> The whole society is also affected by tech trends, and the circle goes 
> around, consumer behavior and choices, how professionals use and sometimes 
> misuse the tech (I'm seeing that too, it can be within the law but extremely 
> harmful for consumers), data expectations and proliferation, 
> over-availability or under-availability of information, control, ideology, 
> intrusive or invasive trends, healthy awareness and ability versus dangerous 
> dumbing down and complacency, more comprehensive security versus a sense of 
> security or partial security, the effects of dependency on a single venue and 
> its viewpoint and its quirks - in the end, everyone is touched.
> 
> Perceiving how technology trends impact society, and in turn come back to 
> impact each of us, is very valuable and all too easy to overlook as we rush 
> to keep up with those trends and create new ones. Definitely worth a look for 
> those who don't want to avoid one type of risk only to fall into another! 
> Stay safe. Hope everyone is doing well -- I haven't been able to pop up much 
> here in the list lately.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Curry Kenworthy
> 
> Custom Software Development
> http://curryk.com/consulting/
> 
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Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 08/11/2017 01:44 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:


At the risk of starting a platform war.




No platform war on my part. I hate operating systems. Linux comes 
closest to what I want because I can configure it, it (mostly) doesn't 
keep dumbing down the interface and (mostly) doesn't try to tell me what 
I can have or try to be more in touch with what I want than I am.


searches I just don't use Chrome.) Android Now is close to psychic, 
volunteering information I want without my asking. I walked out of a 
theater one night and Android offered a map showing me where I'd parked. 
I didn't have to ask, it was just there. You can turn off these things 
but I find them useful. If you don't want Google to know where you are, 
turn off location services.


The scary part of that, of course, is that (Google in this case, but 
feel free to insert whatever mobile OS or government agency you want) 
knows exactly where you are.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[Roger Eller via use-livecode]

I recently heard that Apple is planning a revolutionary smartwatch which
has calling functions built-in.  Seriously, no need to carry a phone!

Now Google it and see how many of these have existed for several years.
Revolutionary idea stealin' bunch!  lol

~Roger

On Aug 11, 2017 4:44 PM, "J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

On 8/11/17 10:51 AM, Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode wrote:

> I'd be tempted to switch to an android (I actually had the original
> gphone), but the privacy, hacks, and whathaveyou stop me.
>

At the risk of starting a platform war...



I love my Mac but I don't like iOS. It's too dumbed down to be useful.
Android has many advantages over iOS, the main one being that it has an
accessible file system like the Mac Finder (which I see iOS is about to
implement finally.) Not to mention launcher widgets, which I can't live
without, dozens of different launcher app options, and the ability to
customize almost anything the phone can do. It has menus and tooltips so
you don't have to memorize obscure gestures. Android Assistant is more
intelligent than Siri. Google provides unlimited photo storage without data
caps and uses intelligent algorithms to find photos without the need for
content tagging.

There are multiple apps for any purpose so you aren't required to use a
single authorized browser, email client, or anything else. I have three
browsers on my phone and four keyboards for different purposes. I had to
laugh when Apple finally allowed third-party keyboards. It's a start. (Try
SwiftKey, its prediction algorithms are the smartest anywhere and it is now
available for iOS.)

While Android malware is somewhat more prevalent than iOS, the actual risks
are exaggerated. Google has taken aggressive steps to reduce occurances,
which is only a tiny fraction of one percent anyway. There are nine layers
of security checks for every app you install. If you stick to the
authorized app stores you won't have trouble since almost all malware comes
from third-party downloads. Android also scans your apps in the background
even if you didn't download from their store, and recently added a manual
scan so you can check on demand. I've had 8 Android devices over the years
and never had any malware.

Privacy: Google gives you more control than Apple. You can delete all or
part of the data it stores at any time. You can control what it collects.
The trade-off, in my view, is worth the data collection. (One advantage of
multiple browsers is when I don't want Google to track my searches I just
don't use Chrome.) Android Now is close to psychic, volunteering
information I want without my asking. I walked out of a theater one night
and Android offered a map showing me where I'd parked. I didn't have to
ask, it was just there. You can turn off these things but I find them
useful. If you don't want Google to know where you are, turn off location
services.

I see Google as the pioneer that Apple used to be, and in fact, Apple has
started adopting popular Android features and claiming them as their own
(Windows 1.0 anyone?) Most of the upcoming iOS 11 features Apple is
bragging about incorporate Android features, most of which have been around
for years:

Notification system, document scanning, Finder-like file system, drag and
drop files to local storage or cloud services, language translations,
System UI Tuner ("customizable control center",) advanced camera control
apps, Android Beam ("AirDrop"), app drawer, customizable Do Not Disturb,
peer-to-peer Android Pay/Wallet ("Apple Pay",) Swapps ("persistent Dock".)
Apple says Siri now learns from you and syncs across devices. Android has
always done that.

Etc.




-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 8/11/17 10:51 AM, Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode wrote:

I'd be tempted to switch to an android (I actually had the original
gphone), but the privacy, hacks, and whathaveyou stop me.


At the risk of starting a platform war...



I love my Mac but I don't like iOS. It's too dumbed down to be useful. 
Android has many advantages over iOS, the main one being that it has an 
accessible file system like the Mac Finder (which I see iOS is about to 
implement finally.) Not to mention launcher widgets, which I can't live 
without, dozens of different launcher app options, and the ability to 
customize almost anything the phone can do. It has menus and tooltips so 
you don't have to memorize obscure gestures. Android Assistant is more 
intelligent than Siri. Google provides unlimited photo storage without 
data caps and uses intelligent algorithms to find photos without the 
need for content tagging.


There are multiple apps for any purpose so you aren't required to use a 
single authorized browser, email client, or anything else. I have three 
browsers on my phone and four keyboards for different purposes. I had to 
laugh when Apple finally allowed third-party keyboards. It's a start. 
(Try SwiftKey, its prediction algorithms are the smartest anywhere and 
it is now available for iOS.)


While Android malware is somewhat more prevalent than iOS, the actual 
risks are exaggerated. Google has taken aggressive steps to reduce 
occurances, which is only a tiny fraction of one percent anyway. There 
are nine layers of security checks for every app you install. If you 
stick to the authorized app stores you won't have trouble since almost 
all malware comes from third-party downloads. Android also scans your 
apps in the background even if you didn't download from their store, and 
recently added a manual scan so you can check on demand. I've had 8 
Android devices over the years and never had any malware.


Privacy: Google gives you more control than Apple. You can delete all or 
part of the data it stores at any time. You can control what it 
collects. The trade-off, in my view, is worth the data collection. (One 
advantage of multiple browsers is when I don't want Google to track my 
searches I just don't use Chrome.) Android Now is close to psychic, 
volunteering information I want without my asking. I walked out of a 
theater one night and Android offered a map showing me where I'd parked. 
I didn't have to ask, it was just there. You can turn off these things 
but I find them useful. If you don't want Google to know where you are, 
turn off location services.


I see Google as the pioneer that Apple used to be, and in fact, Apple 
has started adopting popular Android features and claiming them as their 
own (Windows 1.0 anyone?) Most of the upcoming iOS 11 features Apple is 
bragging about incorporate Android features, most of which have been 
around for years:


Notification system, document scanning, Finder-like file system, drag 
and drop files to local storage or cloud services, language 
translations, System UI Tuner ("customizable control center",) advanced 
camera control apps, Android Beam ("AirDrop"), app drawer, customizable 
Do Not Disturb, peer-to-peer Android Pay/Wallet ("Apple Pay",) Swapps 
("persistent Dock".) Apple says Siri now learns from you and syncs 
across devices. Android has always done that.


Etc.



--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode]

Mark:

> I think Johnathan made the best point here - if you want into the
> iOS world and the AppStore Apple provide you have to abide by their
> rules. However, if you don't care about the AppStore, then just
> jailbreak your phone and run free - no-one is stopping you.

> It is entirely your choice :)

No, it's not merely a personal matter by any stretch of the imagination. 
This is a social and tech reality that affects all of us, our 
technological environment. You are framing this as primarily a security 
matter to save the masses, with a handy personal jail break or xCode 
opt-out that solves the matter for any individual who feels differently. 
(No thanks on JB, nor do I generally recommend that to others. Nor is my 
interest mainly personal, but rather as a consultant and developer. I 
doubt most true end users feel comfy with xCode, assuming they even have 
a Mac.) Sorry, I tend to be a frame breaker! It's missing out on the 
bigger picture of Apple's system, and similarly the impact of tech 
trends, not only from Apple but other major players.


Much more complex, and it affects us far beyond our own choices. While 
someone here is waxing poetic about the security benefits, at one time 
or another someone has likely iPhoned that person's own data around 
insecurely in ways that would alarm you! Perhaps it has happened to you 
too without your knowledge. I've seen it too many times, very 
widespread. Often by people working for a reputable company or providing 
a vital professional service, but clueless or careless. Neither is the 
data completely secure even with companies that are more careful - the 
masses don't realize that. At the same time people are desensitized to 
sharing more data than ever. That makes them - and through them, 
sometimes you - very vulnerable.


Security goes way beyond malware. Security is an integral part of 
Apple's system, but it's not a system primarily for the sake of 
security. Fairly easy to have safe apps outside of a particular app 
store. One way would be setting up other download repositories that are 
checked. Another is using networked antivirus systems, which are already 
popular and advanced.


Going beyond security - breaking that frame again - it's much bigger. 
Richmond already had some good points, so maybe I don't need to add any, 
but for example: Actual publishing standards and choices are not all 
about security, quality, decency, and good style as advertised. 
Marketing versus reality. What viewpoints, topics, or potentially 
beneficial technologies might be suppressed? That would not be a big 
deal when there are multiple venues, but when there is one


The whole society is also affected by tech trends, and the circle goes 
around, consumer behavior and choices, how professionals use and 
sometimes misuse the tech (I'm seeing that too, it can be within the law 
but extremely harmful for consumers), data expectations and 
proliferation, over-availability or under-availability of information, 
control, ideology, intrusive or invasive trends, healthy awareness and 
ability versus dangerous dumbing down and complacency, more 
comprehensive security versus a sense of security or partial security, 
the effects of dependency on a single venue and its viewpoint and its 
quirks - in the end, everyone is touched.


Perceiving how technology trends impact society, and in turn come back 
to impact each of us, is very valuable and all too easy to overlook as 
we rush to keep up with those trends and create new ones. Definitely 
worth a look for those who don't want to avoid one type of risk only to 
fall into another! Stay safe. Hope everyone is doing well -- I haven't 
been able to pop up much here in the list lately.


Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
http://curryk.com/consulting/

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Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[Roger Eller via use-livecode]

You too, Richmond!   I agree with you that it's more about Apple greed than
making a safe, malware-free environment.  Stay safe from the Kool-ade.  :)

Kind regards,
~Roger



Roger Eller
Graphics Systems Analyst

803 North Maple Street P: 864.967.1625
Simpsonville, SC 29681 C: 864.908.0337
SealedAir.com  roger.e.el...@sealedair.com




On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 2:03 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Wow, Roger!
>
> You have "out devil's advocated me".
>
> Hope you have a great weekend.
>
> Richmond.
>
>
> On 8/11/17 8:38 pm, Roger Eller via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 2017-08-11 19:22, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:
>>>
>>> So, I wonder why there is not a way of putting one's iPad app onot the
 web in a way (and I don't mean via Cydia)
 that will allow people to download it onto their tablets
 independently, as one can do on an Android device?

 There is - you build your app signed with your provisioning profile. You
>>> upload it. Someone else downloads it, and resigns it with there's.
>>>
>>> I'm sure there must be a utility out there which makes this 'easy' - it
>>> certainly seems simple enough to me - okay so not a nice 'store' type
>>> interface on your phone; you need to attach it to a computer. However,
>>> that
>>> is just a small wall to step over.
>>>
>>> Of course, it is contigent on having a Apple developer account but I'm
>>> pretty sure these days you don't need to pay the $99 unless you want to
>>> submit an app
>>>
>>> Um, and a Mac.  Some iOS device owners have PCs, and therefore no access
>> to
>> Xcode.
>>
>>
>> Warmest Regards,
>>>
>>> Mark.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
>>> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
>>>
>>
>>
>> ~Roger
>> ___
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>> subscription preferences:
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>
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Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Wow, Roger!

You have "out devil's advocated me".

Hope you have a great weekend.

Richmond.

On 8/11/17 8:38 pm, Roger Eller via use-livecode wrote:

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:


On 2017-08-11 19:22, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:


So, I wonder why there is not a way of putting one's iPad app onot the
web in a way (and I don't mean via Cydia)
that will allow people to download it onto their tablets
independently, as one can do on an Android device?


There is - you build your app signed with your provisioning profile. You
upload it. Someone else downloads it, and resigns it with there's.

I'm sure there must be a utility out there which makes this 'easy' - it
certainly seems simple enough to me - okay so not a nice 'store' type
interface on your phone; you need to attach it to a computer. However, that
is just a small wall to step over.

Of course, it is contigent on having a Apple developer account but I'm
pretty sure these days you don't need to pay the $99 unless you want to
submit an app


Um, and a Mac.  Some iOS device owners have PCs, and therefore no access to
Xcode.



Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps



~Roger
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Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[Roger Eller via use-livecode]

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 2017-08-11 19:22, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> So, I wonder why there is not a way of putting one's iPad app onot the
>> web in a way (and I don't mean via Cydia)
>> that will allow people to download it onto their tablets
>> independently, as one can do on an Android device?
>>
>
> There is - you build your app signed with your provisioning profile. You
> upload it. Someone else downloads it, and resigns it with there's.
>
> I'm sure there must be a utility out there which makes this 'easy' - it
> certainly seems simple enough to me - okay so not a nice 'store' type
> interface on your phone; you need to attach it to a computer. However, that
> is just a small wall to step over.
>
> Of course, it is contigent on having a Apple developer account but I'm
> pretty sure these days you don't need to pay the $99 unless you want to
> submit an app
>

Um, and a Mac.  Some iOS device owners have PCs, and therefore no access to
Xcode.


>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Mark.
>
> --
> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps



~Roger
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Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode]

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 9:54 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Well, I always drive below the speed limit and I always wear a seatbelt
> (and have always done so whether or not it was
> a legal requirement in the country I happened to be living in at the time).
>

I won't leave the driveway without a seat belt, but if you drive below the
posted speed around here, you better check your medical insurance first . .
.

With our new law, our Highway Patrol is actually citing people now for
driving below the posted speed in the left lane . . .

>
> This is not quite the same as keeping goats and hens in the back of your
> car (which was not illegal last time I looked).
>
> While keeping goats and hens in the car may prove extremely smelly it


Both would be quite heavy objects to be flying around in a collision . .
 --
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-08-11 19:22, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

So, I wonder why there is not a way of putting one's iPad app onot the
web in a way (and I don't mean via Cydia)
that will allow people to download it onto their tablets
independently, as one can do on an Android device?


There is - you build your app signed with your provisioning profile. You 
upload it. Someone else downloads it, and resigns it with there's.


I'm sure there must be a utility out there which makes this 'easy' - it 
certainly seems simple enough to me - okay so not a nice 'store' type 
interface on your phone; you need to attach it to a computer. However, 
that is just a small wall to step over.


Of course, it is contigent on having a Apple developer account but I'm 
pretty sure these days you don't need to pay the $99 unless you want to 
submit an app


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
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LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-08-11 18:49, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote:

Richmond, this may be rare but I'm 100% in agreement with you! My
device, my management. I don't have the right to do something illegal
or endanger others, but otherwise, I call the shots.


Indeed - you are free to do whatever you want with your device.

You can JailBreak it for a start - you won't be able to use the Apple 
AppStore, because if they were to allow that it punches a large whole in 
the 'security blanket' (however thin it might be) that the locked-down 
device + 'controlled' AppStore environment Apple provide.



For virus and malware in particular, yes. But that type of safety
could be achieved in other specific ways. This system is primarily
about control - a lot of it is financial, some perhaps even
ideological. Safety is also a big component of the system, but not the
defining one.


What other specific ways? The best defense against virii and malware is 
to minimize the surface area of vulnerabilities - there is simply no 
better way. The less 'holes' which can be exploited, the less exploits 
that can exist.


I think Johnathan made the best point here - if you want into the iOS 
world and the AppStore Apple provide you have to abide by their rules. 
However, if you don't care about the AppStore, then just jailbreak your 
phone and run free - no-one is stopping you.


It is entirely your choice :)

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
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LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

On 8/11/17 8:18 pm, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2017-08-11 18:54, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

Now putting a LiveCode standalone onto an iPad that does thing that
Apple doesn't like isn't always the same thing as putting things onto
an iPad that is unsafe.


I've already pointed out that you can put whatever you want onto 
*your* iPad or *your* iPhone - you just need an Apple Developer 
account, a provisioning profile and away you go. There are also 
numerous ways to share such apps with your friends and colleagues, or 
indeed anyone you like (beta test codes etc. - or just sending them 
the built app bundle which they can then resign to install themselves 
through Xcode onto their own devices).


For organisations, it is also bypass the *consumer* AppStore - by 
having an organisation wide AppStore. Again, these come with no review 
or restrictions.


The restrictions are about what your app is allowed to do when you 
submit to the *Consumer* Apple App Store - i.e. when you are making 
your app potentially available to millions of people.


So, I wonder why there is not a way of putting one's iPad app onot the 
web in a way (and I don't mean via Cydia)
that will allow people to download it onto their tablets independently, 
as one can do on an Android device?


Therefore allowing those "millions" of people (i.e. the 25 who are 
interested in "Fred Flintstone's" app) the abi;lity to choose for 
themselves.


Richmond.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.




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Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-08-11 18:54, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:

Now putting a LiveCode standalone onto an iPad that does thing that
Apple doesn't like isn't always the same thing as putting things onto
an iPad that is unsafe.


I've already pointed out that you can put whatever you want onto *your* 
iPad or *your* iPhone - you just need an Apple Developer account, a 
provisioning profile and away you go. There are also numerous ways to 
share such apps with your friends and colleagues, or indeed anyone you 
like (beta test codes etc. - or just sending them the built app bundle 
which they can then resign to install themselves through Xcode onto 
their own devices).


For organisations, it is also bypass the *consumer* AppStore - by having 
an organisation wide AppStore. Again, these come with no review or 
restrictions.


The restrictions are about what your app is allowed to do when you 
submit to the *Consumer* Apple App Store - i.e. when you are making your 
app potentially available to millions of people.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
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LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode]

If we buy an iPad, we are buying both the device and the services that go with 
it. To use a service, like iTunes, we are agreeing to operate by their rules.

It seems acceptable for Apple to impose restrictions on use of their device and 
their services simply because people have the choice to agree to those terms or 
not. We are not forced to buy it.

Basically, I don't complain about a closed ecosystem since I elected to partake 
of that system, especially since we have alternatives.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 11, 2017, at 12:54 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Well, I always drive below the speed limit and I always wear a seatbelt (and 
> have always done so whether or not it was
> a legal requirement in the country I happened to be living in at the time).
> 
> This is not quite the same as keeping goats and hens in the back of your car 
> (which was not illegal last time I looked).
> 
> While keeping goats and hens in the car may prove extremely smelly it cannot 
> be said to be unsafe
> (unless one wants to drive the car with a nanny goat sitting on one's lap).
> 
> Now putting a LiveCode standalone onto an iPad that does thing that Apple 
> doesn't like isn't always the same thing as putting things onto an iPad that 
> is unsafe.
> 
> I'm absolutely sure that an awful lot of the creative potential of tablets is 
> being lost because of unnecessary restrictions.
> 
>> On 8/11/17 6:44 pm, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:
>>> On 2017-08-11 16:44, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:
>>> I cannot quite see how people are prepared to go on buying Apple iPads when
>>> there are such draconian restrictions as to what one can run on them.
>>> 
>>> While the Android "thing" may not be much better, at last one can
>>> side-load almost anything one wants.
>> 
>> One can on iOS too - if you want to Jailbreak your device. Or, indeed, if 
>> you have a Apple dev account (which I believe are now free until you want to 
>> submit an app - someone please correct me if I'm wrong) you can put on it 
>> whatever you like.
>> 
>>> There is a whole world of difference between a set of actions one
>>> cannot do because of the
>>> physical limitations of a thing and a set of actions one is not
>>> allowed to do because a bunch of people
>>> in California want to carry on mucking you around even after they ahve
>>> successfully manipulated you into buying their
>>> over-priced product.
>> 
>> That might be true - but as much as these restrictions *might* be because 
>> the vendors 'want complete control of their walled garden to scalp us for 
>> cash', I honestly do think it is much more about ensuring these devices are 
>> *safe* for people to use in regards to all the very critical information we 
>> tend to hold on our devices.
> 
> I don't see that, so much as the possibility that Apple and Google are 
> scalping developers for cash;
> and even that does not make much sense as they could still "scalp" if the 
> restrictions were not so tight.
> 
> I don't think the developers of these machines or their operating systems are 
> worried that much about
> the end-users' safety; surely they are more interested in keeping their 
> shareholders happy.
> 
>> 
>> It is important to remember that the majority of people who use mobile 
>> phones, tablets and computers use them like they do their car or washing 
>> machine. They have little interest in how the thing works, just that it does 
>> what they need to - does it well and does it safely.
> 
> Yes, I am sure you are right. But, by imposing these restrictions they do not 
> give the end-user a choice; and a world in which choice seems to be 
> increasingly restricted is not good.
> 
> It would seem that the use of over-regulation and over-restriction is a way 
> of dodging the very heavy moral responsibility of teaching people to
> make sensible decisions.
>> 
>> Sure some people complain about seat-belts and speed limits but the reality 
>> is that those *legally enforceable requirements* make the roads a great deal 
>> safer for everyone.
>> 
>> Warmest Regards,
> 
> Not half as warm as over here in Bulgaria; hit 43 Centigrade today!
>> 
>> Mark.
>> 
> 
> Best, Richmond.
> 
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Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Well, I always drive below the speed limit and I always wear a seatbelt 
(and have always done so whether or not it was

a legal requirement in the country I happened to be living in at the time).

This is not quite the same as keeping goats and hens in the back of your 
car (which was not illegal last time I looked).


While keeping goats and hens in the car may prove extremely smelly it 
cannot be said to be unsafe

(unless one wants to drive the car with a nanny goat sitting on one's lap).

Now putting a LiveCode standalone onto an iPad that does thing that 
Apple doesn't like isn't always the same thing as putting things onto an 
iPad that is unsafe.


I'm absolutely sure that an awful lot of the creative potential of 
tablets is being lost because of unnecessary restrictions.


On 8/11/17 6:44 pm, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2017-08-11 16:44, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:
I cannot quite see how people are prepared to go on buying Apple 
iPads when

there are such draconian restrictions as to what one can run on them.

While the Android "thing" may not be much better, at last one can
side-load almost anything one wants.


One can on iOS too - if you want to Jailbreak your device. Or, indeed, 
if you have a Apple dev account (which I believe are now free until 
you want to submit an app - someone please correct me if I'm wrong) 
you can put on it whatever you like.



There is a whole world of difference between a set of actions one
cannot do because of the
physical limitations of a thing and a set of actions one is not
allowed to do because a bunch of people
in California want to carry on mucking you around even after they ahve
successfully manipulated you into buying their
over-priced product.


That might be true - but as much as these restrictions *might* be 
because the vendors 'want complete control of their walled garden to 
scalp us for cash', I honestly do think it is much more about ensuring 
these devices are *safe* for people to use in regards to all the very 
critical information we tend to hold on our devices.


I don't see that, so much as the possibility that Apple and Google are 
scalping developers for cash;
and even that does not make much sense as they could still "scalp" if 
the restrictions were not so tight.


I don't think the developers of these machines or their operating 
systems are worried that much about
the end-users' safety; surely they are more interested in keeping their 
shareholders happy.




It is important to remember that the majority of people who use mobile 
phones, tablets and computers use them like they do their car or 
washing machine. They have little interest in how the thing works, 
just that it does what they need to - does it well and does it safely.


Yes, I am sure you are right. But, by imposing these restrictions they 
do not give the end-user a choice; and a world in which choice seems to 
be increasingly restricted is not good.


It would seem that the use of over-regulation and over-restriction is a 
way of dodging the very heavy moral responsibility of teaching people to

make sensible decisions.


Sure some people complain about seat-belts and speed limits but the 
reality is that those *legally enforceable requirements* make the 
roads a great deal safer for everyone.


Warmest Regards,


Not half as warm as over here in Bulgaria; hit 43 Centigrade today!


Mark.



Best, Richmond.

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Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode]

Richmond:

> I cannot quite see how people are prepared to go on buying
> Apple iPads when there are such draconian restrictions as to
> what one can run on them.

> While the Android "thing" may not be much better, at last one
> can side-load almost anything one wants.

> But, Like Richard Stallman, I suffer from the "horrible" belief
> that once one has bought something it belongs to you and you
> should not be told what you can and cannot do with it.

Richmond, this may be rare but I'm 100% in agreement with you! My 
device, my management. I don't have the right to do something illegal or 
endanger others, but otherwise, I call the shots.


Safer? Ha! I can assure everyone that at least in the U.S., your own 
confidential information is fairly likely to be transmitted insecurely 
even by professions, regardless of which phone or computer they are 
using. I've seen it again and again - social security numbers, sensitive 
records, photo ID, banking and financial, the works. Dumbing things 
down, the resulting ignorance and complacency hasn't helped. I'm not 
even getting into other long-term implications of recent technology trends.


For virus and malware in particular, yes. But that type of safety could 
be achieved in other specific ways. This system is primarily about 
control - a lot of it is financial, some perhaps even ideological. 
Safety is also a big component of the system, but not the defining one.


Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
http://curryk.com/consulting/


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Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode]

It seems that this is another reason to use LC's HTML5 deployment.

Since external javascript is permitted, one could do the "sideloading" by 
accessing a website created with LC.

It would just be an LC HTML5 app displayed inside of a browser widget.

Of course, it would be easy to abuse this by adding in function calls to LC on 
the mobile device, so we would need to be careful.

In Augmented Earth, reports can have ads added to them. The report, with the 
ad, is displayed through a browser widget. This will allow advertisers to place 
high-quality ads, which they will love.

However, nothing in the app would give them access to extra system calls. It is 
still sandboxed, but only by choice.

So, that great power thing still applies - and thanks to the great Stan Lee for 
that meme!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 11, 2017, at 12:20 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> In this case, the restrictions are to prevent malware from entering the app 
> stores, which hardly sounds Draconian to me. Even so, there have been a 
> handful of apps that made it through the vetting process and affected dozens 
> or hundreds of users. It's rare but it has happened.
> 
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> 
> 
>> On August 11, 2017 9:46:37 AM Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I cannot quite see how people are prepared to go on buying Apple iPads when
>> there are such draconian restrictions as to what one can run on them.
>> 
>> While the Android "thing" may not be much better, at last one can
>> side-load almost anything one wants.
>> 
>> But, Like Richard Stallman, I suffer from the "horrible" belief that
>> once one has bought something
>> it belongs to you and you should not be told what you can and cannot do
>> with it.
>> 
>> OK, OK, I'm back off to the kitchen to carry on slicing vegetables with
>> a roll of toliet paper.
>> 
>> There is a whole world of difference between a set of actions one cannot
>> do because of the
>> physical limitations of a thing and a set of actions one is not allowed
>> to do because a bunch of people
>> in California want to carry on mucking you around even after they ahve
>> successfully manipulated you into buying their
>> over-priced product.
>> 
>> Currently trying to get my ASUS Intel Tablet  which runs Android to do a
>> few things I want it to, but Google [wouldn't Douglas Adams
>> have a fit of the dry boak?] do want me to do with it.
>> 
>> Richmond.
>> 
>>> On 8/11/17 5:35 pm, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode wrote:
>>> If we could have our own LC App Store, where people could play an app with 
>>> a player app on different platforms, it would be quite excellent.
>>> 
>>> At the very least, I think Apple would object.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Aug 11, 2017, at 10:09 AM, Roger Eller via use-livecode 
  wrote:
 
 Several companies HAVE their own app stores.  Samsung is one that comes to
 mind.  http://joyofandroid.com/android-app-store-alternatives/
 
 ~Roger
 
 
 On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 10:00 AM, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode <
 use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
 
> If Apple and Google allowed player apps that play external code, companies
> could essentially set up their own app stores, bypassing google play and
> iTunes.
> I cannot imagine either company would appreciate that.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 11, 2017, at 9:52 AM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> Mark,
>> 
>> Thanks for weighing in. I would like to read into those licenses that I
>> could update my core LCS, but I know in my soul that if I do that it's
> just
>> a shoe waiting to drop that could affect not only my license but the
> entire
>> LC community. I also feel that when I create an extra button(with stub
> code)
>> because a "data" update offers more options that I am staying within the
>> guidelines and the spirit of the App/Play store rules. I see this as
> simple
>> decision. I call it the "Johnny, did you eat a cookie?" scenario. Johnny
>> says "no" because he did not eat "A" cookie but ate 3 cookies. I am not
> a 2
>> year old and know what these rules were intended to prevent.
>> 
>> By the way, I was once rejected because my data update "answer" dialog
> was
>> worded as "An app update is available". I explained that it was a data
>> update and not code and changed the verbiage of the dialog. I then passed
>> the review. Moral: The review team can look VERY close at any app during
>> review.
>> 
>> As it was said in Goodfellows... At least, that's how I feel.
>> 
>> Ralph DiMola
>> IT Director
>> Evergreen 

Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

In this case, the restrictions are to prevent malware from entering the app 
stores, which hardly sounds Draconian to me. Even so, there have been a 
handful of apps that made it through the vetting process and affected 
dozens or hundreds of users. It's rare but it has happened.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



On August 11, 2017 9:46:37 AM Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
 wrote:



I cannot quite see how people are prepared to go on buying Apple iPads when
there are such draconian restrictions as to what one can run on them.

While the Android "thing" may not be much better, at last one can
side-load almost anything one wants.

But, Like Richard Stallman, I suffer from the "horrible" belief that
once one has bought something
it belongs to you and you should not be told what you can and cannot do
with it.

OK, OK, I'm back off to the kitchen to carry on slicing vegetables with
a roll of toliet paper.

There is a whole world of difference between a set of actions one cannot
do because of the
physical limitations of a thing and a set of actions one is not allowed
to do because a bunch of people
in California want to carry on mucking you around even after they ahve
successfully manipulated you into buying their
over-priced product.

Currently trying to get my ASUS Intel Tablet  which runs Android to do a
few things I want it to, but Google [wouldn't Douglas Adams
have a fit of the dry boak?] do want me to do with it.

Richmond.

On 8/11/17 5:35 pm, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode wrote:
If we could have our own LC App Store, where people could play an app with 
a player app on different platforms, it would be quite excellent.


At the very least, I think Apple would object.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 11, 2017, at 10:09 AM, Roger Eller via use-livecode 
 wrote:


Several companies HAVE their own app stores.  Samsung is one that comes to
mind.  http://joyofandroid.com/android-app-store-alternatives/

~Roger


On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 10:00 AM, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:


If Apple and Google allowed player apps that play external code, companies
could essentially set up their own app stores, bypassing google play and
iTunes.
I cannot imagine either company would appreciate that.

Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 11, 2017, at 9:52 AM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <

use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

Mark,

Thanks for weighing in. I would like to read into those licenses that I
could update my core LCS, but I know in my soul that if I do that it's

just

a shoe waiting to drop that could affect not only my license but the

entire

LC community. I also feel that when I create an extra button(with stub

code)

because a "data" update offers more options that I am staying within the
guidelines and the spirit of the App/Play store rules. I see this as

simple

decision. I call it the "Johnny, did you eat a cookie?" scenario. Johnny
says "no" because he did not eat "A" cookie but ate 3 cookies. I am not

a 2

year old and know what these rules were intended to prevent.

By the way, I was once rejected because my data update "answer" dialog

was

worded as "An app update is available". I explained that it was a data
update and not code and changed the verbiage of the dialog. I then passed
the review. Moral: The review team can look VERY close at any app during
review.

As it was said in Goodfellows... At least, that's how I feel.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On

Behalf

Of Mark Waddingham via use-livecode
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2017 7:24 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Mark Waddingham
Subject: Re: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation


On 2017-08-11 12:20, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode wrote:
I know the reviewers at app stores are not always careful, but
something like an LC player would surely get their notice.

Review, from my understanding, is heavily automated (it has to be - if

you

think of the scale of the App Stores these days). However, there is

always a

means to get in contact with a human about specific issues (which can

take a

while to get escalated with someone who can actually do something - but

at

least it is possible).


They do allow us to import JS, but JS is way more sandboxed than LC.

Yes - this is true - however, as I noticed this morning Apple no longer

have

their advisory about allowing arbitrary JS to be downloaded and run

within a

WebView. This is simply because you can could build a host app which

gives

access to every single OS API on iOS and make all of them callable from

JS

(even if the JS bundled with the app does not use any of it).

So, the point is the language is not the point - what the 

Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode]

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 8:44 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>
> It is important to remember that the majority of people who use mobile
> phones, tablets and computers use them like they do their car or washing
> machine. They have little interest in how the thing works, just that it
> does what they need to - does it well and does it safely.
>

This.

Word processor, spreadsheet, browser, email, and a few games probably
covers 99% of users.

On a phone, many want their facetwit applications, too.

My interest in a smart phone ends at navigation, camera, and caller ID.
Oh, and enough voice control to place calls.

I'd be tempted to switch to an android (I actually had the original
gphone), but the privacy, hacks, and whathaveyou stop me.

Security and privacy *are* what I'm buying when I pay extra for an iOS
device.



-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: [OT] Draconian computer company policies, was: Mobile LC Apps Downloading Stacks After installation

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-08-11 16:44, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:
I cannot quite see how people are prepared to go on buying Apple iPads 
when

there are such draconian restrictions as to what one can run on them.

While the Android "thing" may not be much better, at last one can
side-load almost anything one wants.


One can on iOS too - if you want to Jailbreak your device. Or, indeed, 
if you have a Apple dev account (which I believe are now free until you 
want to submit an app - someone please correct me if I'm wrong) you can 
put on it whatever you like.



There is a whole world of difference between a set of actions one
cannot do because of the
physical limitations of a thing and a set of actions one is not
allowed to do because a bunch of people
in California want to carry on mucking you around even after they ahve
successfully manipulated you into buying their
over-priced product.


That might be true - but as much as these restrictions *might* be 
because the vendors 'want complete control of their walled garden to 
scalp us for cash', I honestly do think it is much more about ensuring 
these devices are *safe* for people to use in regards to all the very 
critical information we tend to hold on our devices.


It is important to remember that the majority of people who use mobile 
phones, tablets and computers use them like they do their car or washing 
machine. They have little interest in how the thing works, just that it 
does what they need to - does it well and does it safely.


Sure some people complain about seat-belts and speed limits but the 
reality is that those *legally enforceable requirements* make the roads 
a great deal safer for everyone.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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