Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
> ... it is always a good idea when developing for public consumption to > develop for the (reasonably) lowest common denominator. This works with the public. Not so much with a massive set of corporate enterprises where IT departments (all of them) will choose to test and roll out upgrades/updates not long (maybe a month) after its release. This is decided upon because of 2 main factors - 1. security measures implemented in the updates based on real world attacks; 2. The next minor update is hot on its heels. Apple release bêtas so that IT depts can do the main test ahead of time and then on gm they do a final check then release. (Actually, à lot of them wait for Apple to release a x.x.01 before release so that all the initial bugs are removed :p) As a supplier to these companies we have to sign off that we are not putting their devices and systems at risk by using out of date security measures and sdk’s. And so we must be capable of using the very latest Sdks and wares. But, fortunately, as Panos said, these newer oss and IDEs are covered by current releases (9.5.1 and 9.6dp2) although not mentioned in the release notes. And that is what was scaring me and potentially newbies off from making use of it. If it says it’s not supported I can’t risk installing it and end up not being able to revert easily or otherwise stop working. It’s just frustrating that these fixes have been sitting on the server waiting for release for a couple of months and not just pushed out in even a dp or rc form. It would enable us to Have time to test them thoroughly ahead of gm release. And even start putting them to use. Sean Cole Pi Digital > On 13 Mar 2020, at 15:44, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode > wrote: > > Just to diverge a bit (as I am wont to do), when new browsers and features > began to be prolific, a lot of web devs would initially develop sites using > the new features. What resulted however is that they excluded vast numbers of > visitors who could not view their web sites, or had reduced capabilities. > > By reasonable, I mean for example, making sure an app will run in Windows 7 > or whatever version of iOS the Apple Store accepts. Unreasonable would be > trying to support iOS 7 of Windows XP or Vista. > > If using the latest SDK and Livecode version doesn't accomplish this, I would > consider maintaining an SDK and LC version that does, and avoid using > features in your apps that environment cannot support. > > My 2¢ > > Bob S > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
Just to diverge a bit (as I am wont to do), when new browsers and features began to be prolific, a lot of web devs would initially develop sites using the new features. What resulted however is that they excluded vast numbers of visitors who could not view their web sites, or had reduced capabilities. What evolved from that period of painful learning is that it is always a good idea when developing for public consumption to develop for the (reasonably) lowest common denominator. By reasonable, I mean for example, making sure an app will run in Windows 7 or whatever version of iOS the Apple Store accepts. Unreasonable would be trying to support iOS 7 of Windows XP or Vista. If using the latest SDK and Livecode version doesn't accomplish this, I would consider maintaining an SDK and LC version that does, and avoid using features in your apps that environment cannot support. My 2¢ Bob S ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
Hi Panos Thank you for your lengthy descriptive explanation. It’s appreciated. Perhaps this should be written in the Release Notes - you know, for clarification. So that a newbie or even an oldie knows what to expect. If the RN says it’s not supported then they/we will be ‘scared off from using it. ‘It’ being either LC or the new OSs/Xcode’s/Eclipses/Whatever’s. Especially as you put so much effort into writing it. Still, your fix has been sat on github for 2months held ‘at the mercy’ of waiting for other bugs to be fixed and features added/completed. In 3 or months time Apple will ‘announce’ another major version of iOS MacOS and so on. And, at this rate it will be another 12 months (start your stopwatch) before ‘support’ is added. And so the cycle continues. It could have been sorted and fed out 6mths ago without a doubt. It has to be remembered that LC is not the only software we have running on our systems, each with their own set of ‘requirements’. So of course we will have need for the latest os and Xcode. And then the need for multiple Xcode and terminal commands to avoid conflicts. So clarity is definitely needed and appreciated. Hopefully by painting a picture of the other side of the fence helps in understanding ‘why’ getting it out of the door quicker is very much needed. All the best Sean Cole Pi Digital > On 13 Mar 2020, at 07:46, panagiotis merakos via use-livecode > wrote: > > Hello all, > > Just a clarification, as this has been a source of confusion for a long > time. > > The current LC 9.x versions do support MacOS Catalina. Also, with the > latest LiveCode versions (9.5.1 and 9.6 DP-2 - and possibly earlier > versions too) you can still deploy apps for iOS 13.x - and these apps will > continue to run even on iOS 14 and 15 in the future. > > You do NOT need the latest Xcode for building apps, if you want your apps > to run in the latest iOS version. > > There are 2 different places where the iOS version comes to play: > > (1) The iOS version of the device you want your app to run > > (2) The iOS SDK version which is included in each Xcode > > For (1) - you do not need the latest Xcode. Building apps with older Xcode > versions will work just fine if your device runs the most recent iOS > version. In fact, when a new LC version is released, and it includes > support for building with the latest Xcode - it still includes support for > building with older Xcode versions, if your Mac runs an older MacOS version. > > So one might ask, why do we need to use the latest iOS SDK version (to > build the app), so why is the LC team each time struggling to include > support for the latest Xcode (which includes the latest iOS SDK version)? > > The answer is we do NOT always need to use the latest iOS SDK version. But > when do we *actually* might need it? Well, in the following cases: > > (a) If you want to submit your app to the AppStore and Apple *requires* > your app to have been built against a minimum iOS SDK version. When this is > the case, we always release a LC version that supports the required > Xcode/iOS_SDK version before the deadline posed by Apple > > (b) If your app can support a specific new feature that will be available > only when built against a specific iOS SDK (imagine iOS SDKs as libraries - > a newer one can contain new functions/features, so if you want to use these > new functions you have to use this specific iOS SDK to built the app). An > example is the TouchID/FaceID support. > > However, note that iOS SDKs with new features are released in the *major* > Xcode versions, and the minor releases are usually just bugfixes in Xcode > itself, for which you really do not care, as you do not actually use the > Xcode IDE to built the iOS app. > > So really in the vast majority of the cases we only need to support major > Xcode releases, something which does happen, without major delays. So, > since you can currently build apps against the iOS 13.1 SDK (i.e. using > Xcode 11.1), there is really no need to add support for Xcode 11.2 or 11.3. > > Similarly, when Xcode 12.x was released, we needed to add support for Xcode > 12 (or 12.1), but not really for Xcode 12.2, 12.3 etc > > The main reason we continue to add support for minor Xcode releases is that: > > - we do not want to ask people keeping multiple (older) versions of Xcode > in their machines. > - a lot of people have enabled auto-updates, so their Xcode version will be > updated automatically > - someone downloading Xcode for the first time will probably download the > latest version > > So for these reasons we are trying - but not always successfully - to > support the latest minor Xcode updates. > > Hope this helps, > Panos > -- > >> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 07:18, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode < >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: >> >> Sean Cole wrote: >> >>> I've added updates to this bug relating to the script editor issues >>> and crashes >>> >>>
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
Hello all, Just a clarification, as this has been a source of confusion for a long time. The current LC 9.x versions do support MacOS Catalina. Also, with the latest LiveCode versions (9.5.1 and 9.6 DP-2 - and possibly earlier versions too) you can still deploy apps for iOS 13.x - and these apps will continue to run even on iOS 14 and 15 in the future. You do NOT need the latest Xcode for building apps, if you want your apps to run in the latest iOS version. There are 2 different places where the iOS version comes to play: (1) The iOS version of the device you want your app to run (2) The iOS SDK version which is included in each Xcode For (1) - you do not need the latest Xcode. Building apps with older Xcode versions will work just fine if your device runs the most recent iOS version. In fact, when a new LC version is released, and it includes support for building with the latest Xcode - it still includes support for building with older Xcode versions, if your Mac runs an older MacOS version. So one might ask, why do we need to use the latest iOS SDK version (to build the app), so why is the LC team each time struggling to include support for the latest Xcode (which includes the latest iOS SDK version)? The answer is we do NOT always need to use the latest iOS SDK version. But when do we *actually* might need it? Well, in the following cases: (a) If you want to submit your app to the AppStore and Apple *requires* your app to have been built against a minimum iOS SDK version. When this is the case, we always release a LC version that supports the required Xcode/iOS_SDK version before the deadline posed by Apple (b) If your app can support a specific new feature that will be available only when built against a specific iOS SDK (imagine iOS SDKs as libraries - a newer one can contain new functions/features, so if you want to use these new functions you have to use this specific iOS SDK to built the app). An example is the TouchID/FaceID support. However, note that iOS SDKs with new features are released in the *major* Xcode versions, and the minor releases are usually just bugfixes in Xcode itself, for which you really do not care, as you do not actually use the Xcode IDE to built the iOS app. So really in the vast majority of the cases we only need to support major Xcode releases, something which does happen, without major delays. So, since you can currently build apps against the iOS 13.1 SDK (i.e. using Xcode 11.1), there is really no need to add support for Xcode 11.2 or 11.3. Similarly, when Xcode 12.x was released, we needed to add support for Xcode 12 (or 12.1), but not really for Xcode 12.2, 12.3 etc The main reason we continue to add support for minor Xcode releases is that: - we do not want to ask people keeping multiple (older) versions of Xcode in their machines. - a lot of people have enabled auto-updates, so their Xcode version will be updated automatically - someone downloading Xcode for the first time will probably download the latest version So for these reasons we are trying - but not always successfully - to support the latest minor Xcode updates. Hope this helps, Panos -- On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 07:18, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode < use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Sean Cole wrote: > > > I've added updates to this bug relating to the script editor issues > > and crashes > > > > https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22389 > > Thank you, Sean. I'm signed onto the report, and will add any notes I > can if I see this on my Mac. > > -- > Richard Gaskin > Fourth World Systems > Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web > > ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com > > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
Sean Cole wrote: > I've added updates to this bug relating to the script editor issues > and crashes > > https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22389 Thank you, Sean. I'm signed onto the report, and will add any notes I can if I see this on my Mac. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
On 3/12/20 9:12 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: I was able to reproduce the issue (continually) so I did another screen recording. It's either the auto-type suggestion thing or it's the error bullet it puts on the numbers (which would then tie up with the breakpoint and other SE errors). Interesting! Sean- That's awesome! A repeatable recipe. I notice that the error indicator moves between lines 3356 and 3357, as it should, as you type, finally ending up at line 3358 at the hang. So with that in mind... Did you press return after typing "then" or did the hang happen as soon as you typed that word? Does the hang only happen if you have the Breakpoints tab selected? How about if you selected the Errors tab instead? You're using 9.5.1 Indy and I see you have the Autocomplete option enabled... do you have the Control Structure Completion option enabled as well? -- Mark Wieder ahsoftw...@gmail.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
I was able to reproduce the issue (continually) so I did another screen recording. It's either the auto-type suggestion thing or it's the error bullet it puts on the numbers (which would then tie up with the breakpoint and other SE errors). Interesting! Sean On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 03:47, Sean Cole (Pi) wrote: > I've added updates to this bug relating to the script editor issues and > crashes > > https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22389 > > ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
I've added updates to this bug relating to the script editor issues and crashes https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22389 ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
I see now. I confess that I stopped reading the subject itself after a while when the thread took off on a tangent. You make a valid point. LC actually did what you describe when 64-bit started to be required on OS X. They released a rapid update and made the deadline but it was close. I heard they really had to scramble, but they knew how important it was. Apparently Apple doesn't give much advance notice to third-party IDE developers. If you're working in Xcode these changes are less intrusive. I haven't yet installed Catalina, but I submitted an app to the App Store last week built with Xcode 11.1 and LC 9.6dp2, and it ran on iOS 13. It was not rejected for that reason (though I did screw up on something else.) Unless something has changed since then, I think you can proceed. LC has always met the final deadlines for these things and I'm sure they'll do it again. But I agree that a longer lead time would ease everyone's mind. Is Xcode 11.3 or iOS 13.3 required soon? I thought we still had a month or more left. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On March 12, 2020 8:54:11 PM Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: The clue is in the subject heading, Jacque. At least, I thought it was plain enough. The script editor and HTML issues I mentioned were just ‘mind wind’ in the process of bemoaning the speed of uptake to current OS and Xcode support. Here’s the big issue. Essential updates that all users are dependent on, like OS support, are held off from release while other minor updates are worked on and refined. I would venture to suggest that a new policy for these heavy releases to come quicker in a x.x.x release while the other combination/collection of fixes and features be sent out in an x.x release. This would then make sure critical errors/features (which I would say OS support fits into) are addressed and released quicker while not being held off at the mercy of other fixes waiting in the wings. Using this method would make it easier on the hub too. Anyone working on non critical updates can develop to the sub major release (ie. 9.7) while other more critical fixes can be applied to minor (not minor in urgency) releases (ie. 9.6.24). These can then have just one or three fixes that then get fed upstream into the 9.7 develop branch to be then checked against any other features being added to it. Does that make sense? Sean Cole Pi Digital ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
The clue is in the subject heading, Jacque. At least, I thought it was plain enough. The script editor and HTML issues I mentioned were just ‘mind wind’ in the process of bemoaning the speed of uptake to current OS and Xcode support. Here’s the big issue. Essential updates that all users are dependent on, like OS support, are held off from release while other minor updates are worked on and refined. I would venture to suggest that a new policy for these heavy releases to come quicker in a x.x.x release while the other combination/collection of fixes and features be sent out in an x.x release. This would then make sure critical errors/features (which I would say OS support fits into) are addressed and released quicker while not being held off at the mercy of other fixes waiting in the wings. Using this method would make it easier on the hub too. Anyone working on non critical updates can develop to the sub major release (ie. 9.7) while other more critical fixes can be applied to minor (not minor in urgency) releases (ie. 9.6.24). These can then have just one or three fixes that then get fed upstream into the 9.7 develop branch to be then checked against any other features being added to it. Does that make sense? Sean Cole Pi Digital ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
This one was okay. :) You sound a little more relaxed. I frequently have the same frustrations as you do, but knowing a little about the team helps moderate my posts. I think this long thread could have been shorter if you had just said what roadblocks in particular are preventing you from completing the work. I do understand you're having issues with the script editor, but what features exactly do you need that don't exist? (I hope I didn't miss something.) When I felt completely blocked because I couldn't find a way to scroll to metadata in a field, several people jumped in to help me and Mark Waddingham even provided a complete handler. I would have lost the job without that. I'm grateful. So maybe we can help you too. Throw out a challenge. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On March 12, 2020 6:54:28 PM Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: Hi all Thank you for all your kind words. Sorry, you said ‘no’ sarcasm. Oops. My bad. I had posted this originally to the dev-livecode list but I thought (accurately) I wouldn’t get a reponse from that. I’m sooo sorry (oops, I did it again) that this is viewed potentially by newbies. Although hiding the truth (‘forever’) is not a good policy either. Maybe one of them will notice that it doesn’t support the latest OSs/Xcode/Android. [Sharp inhale] Suppose they find out! Oh no!! I’ve been looking around but I can’t find a rant-livecode forum or the use-livecodeAtYourPeril forum or even a tryToUse-LiveCodeButEndUpUsingHeapsOfJavascriptAndPHPWorkaroundsInstead forum. Or even the dontUse-LiveCodeBecauseItsCrashedAgain forum. I’ve been thinking for a while whilst reading the various support and ‘spanking’ messages what I might write. But I worked out that the only ‘nice’ thing would be to say nothing (as my dear grandma always said I should). But at some point something has to be said. I currently have a client breathing heavily behind me because I can’t supply what they need. And by now I should be able to. My competitors, they’re new suppliers, are able to. I would be trying to fix the LC issues with HTML deployment myself if I wasn’t so bogged down with the workarounds on top of workarounds that are so messing with my head. I’ve been working 18hr days for months. So forgive me for asking a legitimate question (ok, in mild rant form) on a forum which is the ONLY place I can vent to others who USE-LIVECODE!! Name me one other place where Only veteran users can go and vent with like minded pro users of LC and I’m there! I someone created one I guarantee it would get tonnes more use than this one albeit unseen by the LC team. Which brings me to the final point (‘phew’ I hear you say!). Someone asked what I thought I would get from posting it here. Well, as someone else pointed out, the likes of the CTO do poke there heads this way every now and then. Interestingly today, maybe by coincidence, the amount of git-pulls have been massive in comparison to the last three months. Hopefully this means they are indeed gearing up to release a fixed 9.6GM or RC for us to work with on Friday (their preferred release day historically). I’d like to think (for my own satisfaction only) that my OP pushed towards it but would be just as ‘happy’(ish) if they were already about to. Either way, my original point of posting was to get a heads up and vent a teeny-tiny amount of my current frustration at this current time which is just a part of the never ending circle of futility I find myself in. Now, ‘that’ up there is what you call a rant :) I felt ill before typing this but feel much better now. Thank you all again. I’ve re-read this to be sure I wasn’t abusive or saying anything unfair or unqualified. Sarcastic, yes, but not of the hurtful kind. I’m trying to make light of it despite the mild-affronts and my warm neck. There was no Attack on LC. It was a question of Why the wait and How do I explain to my soon to be lost client and pay packet to my mortgage lenders. I hope you all now understand. Sean Cole Pi ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
Pi Digital wrote: > I had posted this originally to the dev-livecode list but I thought > (accurately) I wouldn’t get a reponse from that. Yep, the dev list has been more or less retired since LC went open source. I'm not sure why it's still even up, except that a few people wanted it when they last asked if it should remain. So it's running, but few read it. This list is a good choice. > I currently have a client breathing heavily behind me because I can’t > supply what they need. And by now I should be able to. My competitors, > they’re new suppliers, are able to. Happens all the time. I've formed relationships with others employing complimentary skills and tooling for that purpose, bringing their specialties on board for things outside of my core services. And sometimes the project as a whole is sufficiently outside of what I do that I just refer the client to another qualified professional. No one does everything. Relationships bridge the gaps the cross-training or interest haven't yet filled. It's a big world, and software is eating it. Lots of opportunity for nearly any specialty or mix of specialties. > I would be trying to fix the LC issues with HTML deployment myself > if I wasn’t so bogged down with the workarounds on top of workarounds > that are so messing with my head. When LC's HTML export was first announced, I read up on Emscripten and how it works. Impressive for certain things, but when the result is running a scripting language inside of a canvas object interpreted by another scripting language, I figured I'd stick with brushing up my JS. I know at least one developer who has been using it profitably for a very specialized service. I'm glad for him. But my own needs are in a different field, with a different market, and working closer to the browser engine is a better fit for my own work. Similarly, I used to use LC for systems administration, until I learned bash. I can get the work done with LC, but I can get it done more quickly with the language designed specifically for that niche. LC's sweet spot is xplat desktop GUIs, where it's unbeatable. It's a good contender for mobile apps, and as a server tool*. Personally, I don't even think about HTML export, even though I helped fund the project to see whee it might go. And even though I spend some time in JS and bash, much of that work has at least some LC mixed in along the way. There's always some GUI tool, or some text processing for which awk feels awkward. Lots of choices, combined and recombined as needed. LC is nice, but it's not every language. There are hundreds, with more each year, because each is contributing a unique mix of strengths the others don't have. Back in the day I used to even write object store systems in LC (think MondgoDB scaled down for shared-hosting CGI). Not bad, and on two projects I still use it, but for new work I'm more inclined spin up a VPS and install Mongo or Couch. Same with server management. I started down the DIY road with an LC-based system and some clever (if I do say so myself ) use of the bash "expect" program. Fun and all, but ultimately a lot of work to handle every edge case or new capability. And all the while Ansible is sitting there waiting to be used by those who need a daemonless option, or go old-school with a few bash scripts. You know how much I enjoy and value LiveCode. But I don't use it for everything. I use it where it's the best choice for the task at hand. * RE server use: This is one area where I feel LiveCode's potential has yet to be fully realized by the world. Consider Ruby or Python: fine languages, but rarely used as CGIs before Rails and Django. Now Ruby on Rails has grown to such an audience that it's almost single-handedly justified returning to CGI in many shops. LiveCode performs roughly on par with both of them, but with chunk expressions - most of what we need to do on servers is text manipulation, and for that LC rocks! Our community is blessed with Ralf Bitter's tremendously excellent revIgniter framework. Modeled on WebIgniter, it's an excellent toolkit for a great many tasks. But the PHP world has more than one framework. Same with Python. I'd like to believe that as we build out great server apps with LC, out of this activity will emerge new and useful libraries, tools, and frameworks that can help the rest of the world come to appreciate the benefits of scripting in LiveCode. Same with streaming desktop apps, so easy in LC, so valuable to users, so underutilized... -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
No offence taken at all, Matthias. I felt you hit ‘the nail’ on the head, not me. ;) I do regret bringing up my last ‘incident’ at all. It’s a bit of a splinter that just won’t go away for me and hard not to be reminded of far to often when I face the near same issues of failure I did back then. But thank you (not sarcasm this time) for looking out for me. Sean Cole Pi Digital Productions Ltd eMail Ts & Cs > On 12 Mar 2020, at 23:18, matthias rebbe via use-livecode > wrote: > > > >>> Am 13.03.2020 um 00:09 schrieb hh via use-livecode >>> : >>> >>> Matthias wrote: >>> I did NOT refer to any personal problems. So please do not impute >>> such an intention to me. >> >> Sorry Matthias, I obviously misinterpreted "your problems last year". >> Hopefully Sean Cole didn't also misinterpret this. >> > I hope so too. > > As you might know i am native German who had English only in school (30 years > ago). Although i am trying my best to express my thoughts correctly without > being misunderstood, it sometimes might sound other than it was intended. > > > >> ___ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription >> preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
Hi all Thank you for all your kind words. Sorry, you said ‘no’ sarcasm. Oops. My bad. I had posted this originally to the dev-livecode list but I thought (accurately) I wouldn’t get a reponse from that. I’m sooo sorry (oops, I did it again) that this is viewed potentially by newbies. Although hiding the truth (‘forever’) is not a good policy either. Maybe one of them will notice that it doesn’t support the latest OSs/Xcode/Android. [Sharp inhale] Suppose they find out! Oh no!! I’ve been looking around but I can’t find a rant-livecode forum or the use-livecodeAtYourPeril forum or even a tryToUse-LiveCodeButEndUpUsingHeapsOfJavascriptAndPHPWorkaroundsInstead forum. Or even the dontUse-LiveCodeBecauseItsCrashedAgain forum. I’ve been thinking for a while whilst reading the various support and ‘spanking’ messages what I might write. But I worked out that the only ‘nice’ thing would be to say nothing (as my dear grandma always said I should). But at some point something has to be said. I currently have a client breathing heavily behind me because I can’t supply what they need. And by now I should be able to. My competitors, they’re new suppliers, are able to. I would be trying to fix the LC issues with HTML deployment myself if I wasn’t so bogged down with the workarounds on top of workarounds that are so messing with my head. I’ve been working 18hr days for months. So forgive me for asking a legitimate question (ok, in mild rant form) on a forum which is the ONLY place I can vent to others who USE-LIVECODE!! Name me one other place where Only veteran users can go and vent with like minded pro users of LC and I’m there! I someone created one I guarantee it would get tonnes more use than this one albeit unseen by the LC team. Which brings me to the final point (‘phew’ I hear you say!). Someone asked what I thought I would get from posting it here. Well, as someone else pointed out, the likes of the CTO do poke there heads this way every now and then. Interestingly today, maybe by coincidence, the amount of git-pulls have been massive in comparison to the last three months. Hopefully this means they are indeed gearing up to release a fixed 9.6GM or RC for us to work with on Friday (their preferred release day historically). I’d like to think (for my own satisfaction only) that my OP pushed towards it but would be just as ‘happy’(ish) if they were already about to. Either way, my original point of posting was to get a heads up and vent a teeny-tiny amount of my current frustration at this current time which is just a part of the never ending circle of futility I find myself in. Now, ‘that’ up there is what you call a rant :) I felt ill before typing this but feel much better now. Thank you all again. I’ve re-read this to be sure I wasn’t abusive or saying anything unfair or unqualified. Sarcastic, yes, but not of the hurtful kind. I’m trying to make light of it despite the mild-affronts and my warm neck. There was no Attack on LC. It was a question of Why the wait and How do I explain to my soon to be lost client and pay packet to my mortgage lenders. I hope you all now understand. Sean Cole Pi ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
Not just dropped APIs. It starts already with Apple deciding if the functionality of an iOS App is worth to be approved for the Appstore or not. I had created 3 apps for a customer which were not accepted by Apple by the "lack" of functionality. At least that was the reason they told us, although we could proof that there were other similar apps in the store with less functionality. Some of them were even approved later than our apps were submitted. The good thing was that i get paid anyway because the complete design and functionality was described by the customer in specification sheets. So i was not responsible for the rejection of the apps. It´s always a risk to develop iOS apps. You´ll never know if they get accepted or not. An other risk is that every new iOS release might break your existing app in the iOS app store. > > Perhaps a good approach is to include in any contract for software products > or development the disclaimer that if the customer requests support for a 3rd > party API, that functionality and support for that API is restricted to the > terms of the 3rd party. Not sure how to word that legally. > That´s a good idea. So the developer is not responsible if there are changes to the 3rd party API and thereby the functionality of the program is disturbed or impaired. > Bob S ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
> Am 13.03.2020 um 00:09 schrieb hh via use-livecode > : > >> Matthias wrote: >> I did NOT refer to any personal problems. So please do not impute >> such an intention to me. > > Sorry Matthias, I obviously misinterpreted "your problems last year". > Hopefully Sean Cole didn't also misinterpret this. > I hope so too. As you might know i am native German who had English only in school (30 years ago). Although i am trying my best to express my thoughts correctly without being misunderstood, it sometimes might sound other than it was intended. > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
I hesitate to opine, but there's so much here. I think anytime a product is dependent on a Google API, long term support is uncertain. For example, recently Google dropped support for Google Docs. The copier companies have written plugins to their copiers SPECIFICALLY to work with Google Docs. So Toshiba, Konica, Canon, Ricoh... all sold commercial products to support an API that CUSTOMERS ASKED FOR, and now it's gone. Poof. Bang. Their recourse? Nil. Nada. See, Google very wisely advised everyone that they reserved the right to discontinue any or all of their API services at their own discretion, so no one has any recourse. Not the end user, not the hardware vendor. This begs the question, what recourse can any of us expect when we support a 3rd party API from ANYONE, including one of our own? Apple and Google can change their terms of service or APIs anytime they want, and can pull the rug out from under our commercial products and we are helpless. Oracle can push out a critical update to their SQL server that sqlYoga can't handle, and Trevor can say, "Yeah, no not going to update that product because I've discontinued supporting it." I'd be forced to completely refactor what is now a fairly complex app. This is the nature of software development in this pervasively connected world of ours. Perhaps a good approach is to include in any contract for software products or development the disclaimer that if the customer requests support for a 3rd party API, that functionality and support for that API is restricted to the terms of the 3rd party. Not sure how to word that legally. Bob S > On Mar 12, 2020, at 15:31 , matthias rebbe via use-livecode > wrote: > > Herman, the problems i referred to were the problems he had with a library > that did not work anymore after Google changed something and he was in urgent > need of a fix, which was not possible because Monte were at sleep at the time > of Sean´s posting and therefore he lost an important customer. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
> Matthias wrote: > I did NOT refer to any personal problems. So please do not impute > such an intention to me. Sorry Matthias, I obviously misinterpreted "your problems last year". Hopefully Sean Cole didn't also misinterpret this. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
> Am 12.03.2020 um 23:15 schrieb hh via use-livecode
> :
>
>
> What I woud like to see is that Sean Cole(pi digital) can write here his
> opinion without being attacked just for writing that: No content-based
> attack, but using the most nasty kind of attack, using (supposed) personal
> problems ("your problems last year").
> While content-based attacks would have been OK for me.
>
Herman, the problems i referred to were the problems he had with a library
that did not work anymore after Google changed something and he was in urgent
need of a fix, which was not possible because Monte were at sleep at the time
of Sean´s posting and therefore he lost an important customer.
I did NOT refer to any personal problems. So please do not impute such an
intention to me.
> If this is not possible, I'll better leave this list.
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
> preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
___
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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
> Richard G. wrote at Mike K.:
> The rest of us are having conversations with none other than the lead
> engineer, right here on this list this morning.
Yes the CTO was in the last two weeks probably more often here than in the
last two years before that two weeks. But he's now more often searching
for excuses than for real help, because there is no real progress with LCS
(except removing 9.5 bugs), LCB and HTML5.
> Help me understand: what would you like to see?
What I woud like to see is that Sean Cole(pi digital) can write here his
opinion without being attacked just for writing that: No content-based
attack, but using the most nasty kind of attack, using (supposed) personal
problems ("your problems last year").
While content-based attacks would have been OK for me.
If this is not possible, I'll better leave this list.
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Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
it really has been, by multiple people, over multiple years. i'm not going to repeat myself, or them. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
Mike Kerner wrote: > there is a difference between complaining and flameing > badgering over the status of qr's shouldn't be necessary. badgering > over comms shouldn't be necessary. Agreed, but there have been two posts with abstractions about "communications" and neither has expressed what exactly it is they're looking for. The rest of us are having conversations with none other than the lead engineer, right here on this list this morning. Help me understand: what would you like to see? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
i'm kind-of annoyed. i have spent enough of my company's funds and my personal time doing lc sessions for beginners. the two years before the lc global sessions, we had a similar level of communication from hq as we do now. there is a difference between complaining and flameing badgering over the status of qr's shouldn't be necessary. badgering over comms shouldn't be necessary. badgering over roadmaps shouldn't be necessary why am i putting out rfq's, trying to find alternatives to lc? and yes, the internet doesn't forget. perhaps lc should take that to heart. we should all take that to heart with our customers. On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 3:36 PM prothero--- via use-livecode < use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Well said, Jacqueline! > Bill > > William A. Prothero > Santa Barbara, CA. 93105 > http://earthlearningsolutions.org/ > > > On Mar 12, 2020, at 11:58 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > On 3/12/20 12:39 PM, hh via use-livecode wrote: > >> The uselist is not a LC-praising list. As long as we have the freedom > of speech > >> everybody can say whether he is contented with LC or not. And nothing > written does > >> change anything*with LC*, also not your positive-only (and excellent) > posts ... > > > > Tone is important. There is difference whether the post is a discussion > of a problem, or a rant against the team and the company. Discussions are > useful and productive. A rant that attacks the dedicated people who are > doing their best for us can cause some of us to become defensive. > > > > For myself, it feels like an attack on my friends. I know these people, > how hard they work, and how much they want LC to succeed. I also know that > they are deluged with work, they need to choose their priorities carefully, > and they care very much. To date, they have met every requirement that the > shifting sands at Apple and Google have thrown at them. They need to drop > everything else to meet those deadlines, but they do it. Of course, that > puts them behind on other things. > > > > These list posts go into a permanent archive where they can discourage > others from trying LC well into the future; I see no point in making LC > look bad to any interested parties. A frank discussion is fine, readers > absolutely do need to know where traps may lie and what the current status > of the product is. But sarcasm and scathing condemnation is neither > acceptable nor productive. > > > > Basically: be kind. Think how you'd feel if what you are about to write > was directed at you. > > > > -- > > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com > > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > > > > ___ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
Well said, Jacqueline! Bill William A. Prothero Santa Barbara, CA. 93105 http://earthlearningsolutions.org/ > On Mar 12, 2020, at 11:58 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode > wrote: > > On 3/12/20 12:39 PM, hh via use-livecode wrote: >> The uselist is not a LC-praising list. As long as we have the freedom of >> speech >> everybody can say whether he is contented with LC or not. And nothing >> written does >> change anything*with LC*, also not your positive-only (and excellent) posts >> ... > > Tone is important. There is difference whether the post is a discussion of a > problem, or a rant against the team and the company. Discussions are useful > and productive. A rant that attacks the dedicated people who are doing their > best for us can cause some of us to become defensive. > > For myself, it feels like an attack on my friends. I know these people, how > hard they work, and how much they want LC to succeed. I also know that they > are deluged with work, they need to choose their priorities carefully, and > they care very much. To date, they have met every requirement that the > shifting sands at Apple and Google have thrown at them. They need to drop > everything else to meet those deadlines, but they do it. Of course, that puts > them behind on other things. > > These list posts go into a permanent archive where they can discourage others > from trying LC well into the future; I see no point in making LC look bad to > any interested parties. A frank discussion is fine, readers absolutely do > need to know where traps may lie and what the current status of the product > is. But sarcasm and scathing condemnation is neither acceptable nor > productive. > > Basically: be kind. Think how you'd feel if what you are about to write was > directed at you. > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
On 3/12/20 12:39 PM, hh via use-livecode wrote: The uselist is not a LC-praising list. As long as we have the freedom of speech everybody can say whether he is contented with LC or not. And nothing written does change anything*with LC*, also not your positive-only (and excellent) posts ... Tone is important. There is difference whether the post is a discussion of a problem, or a rant against the team and the company. Discussions are useful and productive. A rant that attacks the dedicated people who are doing their best for us can cause some of us to become defensive. For myself, it feels like an attack on my friends. I know these people, how hard they work, and how much they want LC to succeed. I also know that they are deluged with work, they need to choose their priorities carefully, and they care very much. To date, they have met every requirement that the shifting sands at Apple and Google have thrown at them. They need to drop everything else to meet those deadlines, but they do it. Of course, that puts them behind on other things. These list posts go into a permanent archive where they can discourage others from trying LC well into the future; I see no point in making LC look bad to any interested parties. A frank discussion is fine, readers absolutely do need to know where traps may lie and what the current status of the product is. But sarcasm and scathing condemnation is neither acceptable nor productive. Basically: be kind. Think how you'd feel if what you are about to write was directed at you. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
As to my contentedness with LC, let me say that without LC, my options would be Javascript, Python or a host of other script based languages, or else some variant of C. That is to say I would be out of options because I simply am too lazy and otherwise occupied with my real job to justify the time it would take to get "good" at any of these options. So from that perspective I am not only contented with LC, I am giddy! But then I am not producing commercial mobile apps either, and for the business I work for, anything useful I produce is icing on the cake! I am under no time constraints, or constraints of any kind! Having seen the myriad of threads on mobile app development and the pains involved, I can sympathize with anyone attempting it. The hoops RunRev has to go through to keep up is staggering to me, but let's step back for a moment and look at what mobile support for LC really is. Apart from LC (or any other non-java mobile app environment) what you would have to do is use the environment provided by Apple or Google. If you did, you would have to learn Javascript, and in the bargain you would STILL be subject to the restrictions and changes inherent to those environments. But WITH LC, you don't need to learn Javascript at all! You can use a familiar and incredibly easy to learn language in a pretty amazing GUI, and then (if all your ducks are in a row) generate a first class Mobile App. A better way to look at it might be this. Suppose Apple and Google requirements had remained static since LC first began supporting mobile apps. Would any of the obvious pains LC devs are suffering still be issues? If for the most part the answer is no, then you can see the pains are not being caused by RunRev. My 2¢ Bob S > On Mar 12, 2020, at 11:08 , hh via use-livecode > wrote: > >>> hh wrote: >>> The uselist is not a LC-praising list. As long as we have the freedom of >>> speech everybody can say whether he is contented with LC or not. >> >> Bob S. wrote: >> I was not aware we had such freedoms on this list! For instance, if I begin >> to speak of fermented dairy products, I will certainly be censured! >> And well I should be!!! > > I wonder why you want to speak of fermented dairy products in order to express > whether you are contented with LC or not. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
LC = Less Cheese ;-) Rick > On Mar 12, 2020, at 2:16 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode > wrote: > > It went on for so many days Heather eventually stepped in and kindly asked us > to please stop the cheese conversation so those interested in LiveCode could > have more LC and less cheese filling their In Boxes. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
hh wrote: >> Bob S. wrote: >> I was not aware we had such freedoms on this list! For instance, if I >> begin to speak of fermented dairy products, I will certainly be >> censured! >> And well I should be!!! > > I wonder why you want to speak of fermented dairy products in order to > express whether you are contented with LC or not. It's a very old community in-joke: A good many years ago (more than a decade?) a thread that became contentious morphed into a very long discussion of cheese preferences, which soon became even more contentious (I leaned more about the passionate cheese preferences of my colleagues than I'd ever imagined). It went on for so many days Heather eventually stepped in and kindly asked us to please stop the cheese conversation so those interested in LiveCode could have more LC and less cheese filling their In Boxes. In the years since, "cheese" has become a comical shorthand for any longish thread not related to using or improving LC, and the only expressly verboten topic on this list. :) -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
Bob Sneidar wrote: > I was not aware we had such freedoms on this list! For instance, if I > begin to speak of fermented dairy products, I will certainly be > censured! And well I should be!!! > > Also, and seriously, Freedom of Speech is something that is unique to > a handful of cultures. It is by no means global. Freedom of Speech is indeed a wonderful thing, but does not apply here: this list is a privately-owned communications channel that doesn't receive any funding from the US federal government. Yet despite no legal requirement to do so, the spirit of that freedom seems well embraced by the owners of this list, with unusually light moderation. And like all good freedoms this one is enjoyed equally, so even folks who have good experiences with LiveCode or seek ways issues can become actionable are allowed to speak their mind as well. Just no cheese, please. Every community has its boundaries of good taste. :) -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
> > hh wrote: > > The uselist is not a LC-praising list. As long as we have the freedom of > > speech everybody can say whether he is contented with LC or not. > > Bob S. wrote: > I was not aware we had such freedoms on this list! For instance, if I begin > to speak of fermented dairy products, I will certainly be censured! > And well I should be!!! I wonder why you want to speak of fermented dairy products in order to express whether you are contented with LC or not. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
I was not aware we had such freedoms on this list! For instance, if I begin to speak of fermented dairy products, I will certainly be censured! And well I should be!!! Also, and seriously, Freedom of Speech is something that is unique to a handful of cultures. It is by no means global. Bob S > The uselist is not a LC-praising list. As long as we have the freedom of > speech > everybody can say whether he is contented with LC or not. And nothing written > does > change anything *with LC*, also not your positive-only (and excellent) posts > ... > ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
+10 > On Mar 12, 2020, at 09:41 , matthias rebbe via use-livecode > wrote: > > Posting here about a real problem/bug makes sense, because others might jump > in and confirm the same experience or might help to solve the problem > As always, a good recipe, if possible, makes it even easier to reproduce it. > I very often try to reproduce problems reported here in the list to find out > if it´s a general problem/bug in LC or just a problem that occurs only at the > system of the reporter. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
> > hh wrote: > > Some people are very angry about deficiencies of LC, what I can understand > > from > > their view, and *we should hear what they have to say*. > > Matthias wrote: > Why. Posting here won´t change anything. The uselist is not a LC-praising list. As long as we have the freedom of speech everybody can say whether he is contented with LC or not. And nothing written does change anything *with LC*, also not your positive-only (and excellent) posts ... > > hh wrote: > > [And, by the way, macOS 10.15 is repeating some beginner mistakes from the > > early > > MacOS X versions. Obviously a lot of beginners are currently at work there.] > > Matthias wrote: > Because people want always something new. It must be always the newest. > Because of > that the lifecycles of products and software are getting shorter and shorter > and > therefore there is less time for development and testing. But they changed methods of working things to non-working or half-way working methods (for example in Mail.app). Beginner mistakes ... ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
> Am 12.03.2020 um 17:08 schrieb hh via use-livecode > : > > Some people are very angry about deficiencies of LC, what I can understand > from > their view, and *we should hear what they have to say*. > Why. Posting here won´t change anything. > Especially when they get angry about the whitewashing of bugs by some list > members. > Currently i am not aware of that. I must have missed such discussions on this list. But i am sure there were such discussions otherwise you wouldn´t write it. When a bug is confirmed in the bugbase, no one can whitewash it. When it´s confirmed then it´s confirmed. Posting here about a real problem/bug makes sense, because others might jump in and confirm the same experience or might help to solve the problem As always, a good recipe, if possible, makes it even easier to reproduce it. I very often try to reproduce problems reported here in the list to find out if it´s a general problem/bug in LC or just a problem that occurs only at the system of the reporter. But just moaning here in the list about deficiencies does not make sense to me. What should that do? No one can help. > What's wrong that's wrong, no matter who tries to whitewash bugs or even > tries to > keep quiet about (remaining) bugs. The latter is, compared to the promises of > the > LC main page, more harmful for the reputation of LC than telling the truth. > > And what's good with LC that's good. We too tell the truth with that. > > [And, by the way, macOS 10.15 is repeating some beginner mistakes from the > early > MacOS X versions. Obviously a lot of beginners are currently at work there.] Because people want always something new. It must be always the newest. Because of that the lifecycles of products and software are getting shorter and shorter and therefore there is less time for development and testing. > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
Some people are very angry about deficiencies of LC, what I can understand from their view, and *we should hear what they have to say*. Especially when they get angry about the whitewashing of bugs by some list members. What's wrong that's wrong, no matter who tries to whitewash bugs or even tries to keep quiet about (remaining) bugs. The latter is, compared to the promises of the LC main page, more harmful for the reputation of LC than telling the truth. And what's good with LC that's good. We too tell the truth with that. [And, by the way, macOS 10.15 is repeating some beginner mistakes from the early MacOS X versions. Obviously a lot of beginners are currently at work there.] ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LC & Catalina; macOS 10.15.x; Xcode 11.3.x; iOS 13.3.x support ???
> Am 12.03.2020 um 01:08 schrieb Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode > : > > Tired and ill. My business is constantly lagging behind my competitors > because we're always on the backfoot waiting for LC to frikin' work! I'm > going to end up losing all my new customers again since the last LC epic > fail. Why do they keep doing this to me? They do it not just to you. ;) Please don´t take it personally, but repeating your discontent here in the list about LC, the development cycle and how LC Ltd. is doing things does not help at all. If you are unsatisfied, then why not writing directly to LC Ltd. What do you expect with your posts? Your posts could even scare potential new paying customers. Remember, the internet does not forget... I understand your personal situation, especially after your problems last year, but such posts do not help. Just my 2 cents. All the best, Matthias ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
