Re: LiveCode Server 8.1 - installing

[Graham Samuel]

Thanks Mark, but I didn’t have to do this- good, because typically I would have 
no idea what password to use. I just went back over Stephen Barncard’s advice 
(thanks so much, Stephen!) about .htaccess (I was already there in fact) and 
most particularly about permissions (I was emphatically NOT there). So my 
samples are working now and any other problems are to do with mistakes I’ve 
made and not to do with the issue of installing LC Server. I am not sure if the 
current LC documentation warns you about the pesky permission problem, but it 
should.

Thanks also to Richard Gaskin for his very helpful and thoughtful mail. It 
would indeed be good if we could meet again. My pad in the South of France is 
still functioning, as you guessed! We need a bit more rain to get the grass 
back in order… but I digress.


Graham


> On 14 Sep 2016, at 22:59, Mark Talluto  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Sep 14, 2016, at 8:57 AM, Graham Samuel  wrote:
>> 
>> Obviously I have made a massive error, but what is it? I just want to be 
>> able to run some .lc programs on the server - it doesn’t seem much to ask.
> 
> LC 8.1 has different dependencies than previous versions of LC. The first 
> thing I would do is make sure you have GLib installed. Open terminal, sign 
> into your server and type the following: 
> 
> apt-get install libglib2.0-0
> 
> You may need to get sudo access thus:
> 
> sudo apt-get install libglib2.0-0
> (enter password when asked)
> 
> Something else that is new in 8.1 is the ability to get error messages 
> regarding missing dependencies. Not sure if you are seeing those.
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Mark Talluto
> livecloud.io
> canelasoftware.com
> 

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Re: LiveCode Server 8.1 - installing

[Mark Talluto]

> On Sep 14, 2016, at 8:57 AM, Graham Samuel  wrote:
> 
> Obviously I have made a massive error, but what is it? I just want to be able 
> to run some .lc programs on the server - it doesn’t seem much to ask.

LC 8.1 has different dependencies than previous versions of LC. The first thing 
I would do is make sure you have GLib installed. Open terminal, sign into your 
server and type the following: 

apt-get install libglib2.0-0

You may need to get sudo access thus:

sudo apt-get install libglib2.0-0
(enter password when asked)

Something else that is new in 8.1 is the ability to get error messages 
regarding missing dependencies. Not sure if you are seeing those.

I hope this helps.

Best regards,

Mark Talluto
livecloud.io
canelasoftware.com




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Re: LiveCode Server 8.1 - installing

[Matthias Rebbe]

> Am 14.09.2016 um 22:32 schrieb Richard Gaskin :
> 
> For things that stay on a server we manage ourselves, what would be an 
> advantage of using the proprietary editions of LC Server?
> 

You could use 3rd party password encrypted stacks with LC server commercial for 
example, like the stacks the key generator Zygodact from Jacque creates.

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Re: LiveCode Server 8.1 - installing

[Richard Gaskin]

Matthias Rebbe wrote:

> There is a little difference between the LC server versions installed
> by default at On-Rev and HostM.
>
> On-Rev has LC server commercial installed.
>
> HostM by default has just installed the most current release version
> of community server.
>
> But if a user can proof the purchase of LC Server commercial, then
> HostM even installs the commercial version of LiveCode Server account
> wide for the user .
>
> There is no need for HostM users to install their own instances of LC
> commercial into each domain folder. That is very comfortable.

Good to know, Matthias.  Thanks.

I'd always considered the proprietary editions of LC Server too 
specialized for most uses, limited to situations where I might be 
delivering a server-side system as a product in itself in which I'd want 
to include proprietary code to a customer to install on their server.


For things that stay on a server we manage ourselves, what would be an 
advantage of using the proprietary editions of LC Server?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: LiveCode Server 8.1 - installing

[Richard Gaskin]

Graham Samuel wrote:

> Hi Richard
>
> I don’t have any desire to frighten the DreamHost horses! However my
> query was a very simple one, simply to answer Peter’s question.  DH
> support has already come back to me - apparently I’m using Ubuntu
> 12.04.5 LTS on my site

If memory serves they switched to Ubuntu with that version (had been 
using Debian), and I'd wager they'll be replacing it with 14.04 soon 
since 12.04 reaches EOL next April.


That won't affect your stuff, though. DH has a good track record of 
upgrading infrastructure without disrupting service.



> If you run LC on DH often, can you explain to a deeply ignorant
> person such as myself -

Anyone who can set himself up in as fine a living situation as you have 
can't be too ignorant. :) I've not forgotten the invitation you kindly 
extended to me and my wife to visit when we all met at the Malta 
conference - and indeed these sorts of issues are much easier to work 
out in person!  Ideally I should go there, or you should take vacation 
in southern California soon - we could work this out in minutes, and 
spend the rest of the afternoon enjoying either a California or French 
wine. :)



But in lieu of that for now, what's see what we can do here:

> is it really necessary for DH to carry as many copies of LC Server
> as there are users? Can’t LC Server be somewhere near the root of
> the tree so to speak, so that everyone who wants to reference it
> can do so?

That's a conversation I'd love to have with them some day, and one of 
the reasons I like to meet DH team members whenever I have a chance 
(that, and they're generally good company).


But right now it's not a problem:  it's common on a shared hosting 
service to have more than a hundred accounts on a single machine, and 
chances are that today yours is the only account on your server using 
LiveCode Server.


Of course we hope to change that over time.  And as more of us make 
great sites using it perhaps we will.


And when enough other customers are using it, we'll be in a good 
position to strike up a conversation with their marketing team about the 
value of offering LiveCode Server pre-installed.


But for now most hosting companies tend to offer only a few languages 
pre-installed, usually those beginning with "P" (Perl, PHP, Python), and 
sometimes Ruby.


Most other engines that can be used as CGIs will need to be added by the 
user to their own account, as we do with LiveCode.



> If not, then my next question is “why did just replacing the whole
> 'LiveCode Server' folder within my domain (it was in the cgi-bin
> folder) not work as it had before?" Do I really have to start
> tweaking command lines?

My hunch would be that perhaps your original post followed Stephen's 
guide and added a .htaccess file inside your "LiveCode Server" folder, 
so dropping in your new folder replaced everything that LC provides in 
that folder but not the .htaccess file you'd added before.


From Stephen's notes:

   this one inside the cgi-bin directory

   Options ExecCGI
   SetHandler cgi-script



If the executable bit is set on the LiveCode engine itself, it may be 
that adding that .htaccess file back into the "LiveCode Server" folder 
is all you need.



> If you want to know what the error is, I can’t invoke LC Server at
> all, for example invoking ‘example.lc’ etc from a browser, and as far
> as I can see, when I invoke an LC script via the FastSpring store,
> the corresponding .lc file isn’t executed. Before my mis-upgrade, the
> execution did take place. I get
>
>> -- ERROR --
>> com.brightmarket.core.license.LicenseException
>> Remote license generator failed: 
http://www.mysite.com/MRScriptForFastSpringMac.lc, HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found


Try:

1. Double-checking that the LC Server engine file is set to executable;

2. Make sure you have the .htaccess file noted above in your cgi-bin 
folder per Stephen's instructions.


If that fails, then:

3. Make a very simple test file in your web root and try calling it from 
your browser, something like:




If that works but your shopping cart doesn't, it would seem the issue 
lies somewhere between your script and the cart.


But if that test script doesn't work we can get it to work. Just let me 
know.  Or drop by. :)



> [Rant: My position by the way is that I am so old that I can remember
> programming computers that didn’t even know how to boot themselves,
> and command lines would have been a luxury, a la Monty Python… but
> now I just want to get on with it and leave what’s under the hood
> under the hood. Of course I’m willing to learn, but I see that I have
> failed to understand some structural stuff about how hosting
> companies organise their servers and what the fundamentals of *nix
> are… and somehow this is taken for granted by most of the people who
> want to explain stuff. I have noticed this tendency even from the
> mother ship when LCB is 

Re: LiveCode Server 8.1 - installing

[Matthias Rebbe]

Matthias Rebbe
Bramkampsieke 13
32312 Lübbecke
Tel +49 5741 31
+49 160 5504462
Fax: +49 5741 310002
eMail: matth...@m-r-d.de 

BR5 Konverter - BR5 -> MP3 
> 
> Both services provide LiveCode Server pre-installed and ready for use with 
> your scripts.  Of the two, last time I checked hostm.com's pricing was more 
> favorable.

There is a little difference between the LC server versions installed by 
default at On-Rev and HostM.
On-Rev has LC server commercial installed. 

HostM by default has just installed the most current release version of 
community server. 
But if a user can proof the purchase of LC Server commercial, then HostM even 
installs the commercial version of LiveCode Server account wide for the user . 
There is no need for HostM users to install their own instances of LC 
commercial into each domain folder. That is very comfortable.

Regards,

Matthias


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Re: LiveCode Server 8.1 - installing

[Graham Samuel]

Hi Richard

I don’t have any desire to frighten the DreamHost horses! However my query was 
a very simple one, simply to answer Peter’s question.  DH support has already 
come back to me - apparently I’m using Ubuntu 12.04.5 LTS on my site

If you run LC on DH often, can you explain to a deeply ignorant person such as 
myself - is it really necessary for DH to carry as many copies of LC Server as 
there are users? Can’t LC Server be somewhere near the root of the tree so to 
speak, so that everyone who wants to reference it can do so? If not, then my 
next question is “why did just replacing the whole 'LiveCode Server' folder 
within my domain (it was in the cgi-bin folder) not work as it had before?" Do 
I really have to start tweaking command lines? 

If you want to know what the error is, I can’t invoke LC Server at all, for 
example invoking ‘example.lc’ etc from a browser, and as far as I can see, when 
I invoke an LC script via the FastSpring store, the corresponding .lc file 
isn’t executed. Before my mis-upgrade, the execution did take place. I get

> -- ERROR --
> com.brightmarket.core.license.LicenseException
> Remote license generator failed: 
> http://www.mysite.com/MRScriptForFastSpringMac.lc, HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found

[Rant: My position by the way is that I am so old that I can remember 
programming computers that didn’t even know how to boot themselves, and command 
lines would have been a luxury, a la Monty Python… but now I just want to get 
on with it and leave what’s under the hood under the hood. Of course I’m 
willing to learn, but I see that I have failed to understand some structural 
stuff about how hosting companies organise their servers and what the 
fundamentals of *nix are… and somehow this is taken for granted by most of the 
people who want to explain stuff. I have noticed this tendency even from the 
mother ship when LCB is being discussed. Guess I’m just to old. end Rant]

Anyway I will try to put together a more coherent set of questions.

Still confused

Graham

> On 14 Sep 2016, at 19:23, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> Graham Samuel wrote:
> 
> > A quick check on the DreamHost Knowledge Base doesn’t answer the
> > question, so I’ve had  to generate a ticket in their support system.
> 
> You may consider closing that support request with Dreamhost.  There are 
> enough of us using LC Server on DH that I'd like to avoid the potential of 
> creating a reputation for LiveCode as representing an unusual cost for them 
> to support.  I really like the team at DH (I've met some of them at the SoCal 
> Linux Expo, and they were enormously helpful last year in helping us sort out 
> LC's transition to 64-bit), so I try to be mindul of our impact on their time 
> (hosting is a notoriously low-margin business).
> 
> DH's setup is fine.  I run LC on it often, as many of us do.  It's set up 
> well to handle any executable that supports stdin and stdout as a CGI, 
> including LC Server, so there's little they can do that won't eat up a lot of 
> their time trying to learn the specifics of LC.
> 
> Please let us help you instead.  Many of us know DH well, and all of us know 
> LC very well.  We can help you with LiveCode-specific questions more 
> efficiently than they can.
> 
> 
> > A lot of LC people use DreamHost, and as I say it was kind of working
> > until I foolishly binned my 7 series version in favour of 8.1.
> 
> What is the error you're getting now that you didn't get before?
> 
> If the LC Lesson you found for setting up LC Server involved updating the 
> Apache config file, you were looking at the one for a dedicated server or 
> VPS.  What you want is the one that uses .htaccess, the override mechanism 
> for Apache config supported on most shared hosting services like DG:
> 
> 
> It may be helpful to review the notes that Stephen put together for setting 
> up LC Server specifically on DH:
> 
> 
> @Stephen: If you don't mind I can copy your notes to this thread in the 
> forums where we've been collecting notes on host-specific setup instructions 
> so they don't get lost in the ephemera of email list archives:
> 
> 
> 
> > What scares me is having to do command-line stuff on an OS I know
> > absolutely nothing about. The instructions and installation notes
> > I’ve read so far don’t work for someone with that particular phobia.
> 
> I somewhat agree.  Just as we need to be able to use a desktop environment 
> well to be able to design software for it effectively, it's very helpful to 
> be able to work fluidly via Terminal with a server in order to deploy systems 
> there.
> 
> It's all learnable, and if you like learning it's kinda fun, but like any 
> learning it does take time.
> 
> We can explore ways to build skills and 

Re: LiveCode Server 8.1 - installing

[Richard Gaskin]

Graham Samuel wrote:

> A quick check on the DreamHost Knowledge Base doesn’t answer the
> question, so I’ve had  to generate a ticket in their support system.

You may consider closing that support request with Dreamhost.  There are 
enough of us using LC Server on DH that I'd like to avoid the potential 
of creating a reputation for LiveCode as representing an unusual cost 
for them to support.  I really like the team at DH (I've met some of 
them at the SoCal Linux Expo, and they were enormously helpful last year 
in helping us sort out LC's transition to 64-bit), so I try to be mindul 
of our impact on their time (hosting is a notoriously low-margin business).


DH's setup is fine.  I run LC on it often, as many of us do.  It's set 
up well to handle any executable that supports stdin and stdout as a 
CGI, including LC Server, so there's little they can do that won't eat 
up a lot of their time trying to learn the specifics of LC.


Please let us help you instead.  Many of us know DH well, and all of us 
know LC very well.  We can help you with LiveCode-specific questions 
more efficiently than they can.



> A lot of LC people use DreamHost, and as I say it was kind of working
> until I foolishly binned my 7 series version in favour of 8.1.

What is the error you're getting now that you didn't get before?

If the LC Lesson you found for setting up LC Server involved updating 
the Apache config file, you were looking at the one for a dedicated 
server or VPS.  What you want is the one that uses .htaccess, the 
override mechanism for Apache config supported on most shared hosting 
services like DG:



It may be helpful to review the notes that Stephen put together for 
setting up LC Server specifically on DH:



@Stephen: If you don't mind I can copy your notes to this thread in the 
forums where we've been collecting notes on host-specific setup 
instructions so they don't get lost in the ephemera of email list archives:




> What scares me is having to do command-line stuff on an OS I know
> absolutely nothing about. The instructions and installation notes
> I’ve read so far don’t work for someone with that particular phobia.

I somewhat agree.  Just as we need to be able to use a desktop 
environment well to be able to design software for it effectively, it's 
very helpful to be able to work fluidly via Terminal with a server in 
order to deploy systems there.


It's all learnable, and if you like learning it's kinda fun, but like 
any learning it does take time.


We can explore ways to build skills and confidence with Terminal here if 
you like - there's not all that much you need to know to work on a 
shared host like your DH account. In under a day you can become 
confident, in a week you're a pro. :)


But alternatively, you might also consider taking advantage of the range 
of options we have with server systems today.


Just as most other development platforms are available with different 
levels of support across the cloud, LiveCode has more options we well.


Using a shared hosting service is a sort of IaaS (Infrastructure as a 
Servce), where they provide the machine and maintain the OS and the 
connectivity, and within your account you're pretty much on your own.


But as we see with services like what Heroku provides for Python, PHP, 
etc., we have two PaaS (Platform as a Service) options in our LiveCode 
world:  on-rev.com and hostm.com


I have no direct experience with on-rev.com, but it was built by the 
core team and AFAIK still managed by LiveCode Ltd.


I've had correspondences with hostm.com, and while I haven't used their 
service myself yet I've read many comments here from those who seem very 
pleased with it.  My own exchanges with them have been prompt, candid, 
and courteous.  I was very impressed to find a third-party hosting 
service as committed to helping LiveCode grow as they are.


Both services provide LiveCode Server pre-installed and ready for use 
with your scripts.  Of the two, last time I checked hostm.com's pricing 
was more favorable.


And if you want to stay with DH, they're a fine option too.  Follow 
Stephen's guide, be willing to learn a little about managing permissions 
in Terminal (though you can probably do what you need in a good FTP tool 
as well, like the free and open FileZilla), and we can get you up and 
running there.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: LiveCode Server 8.1 - installing

[Graham Samuel]

HI Peter

Thanks for the lightning reply!

A quick check on the DreamHost Knowledge Base doesn’t answer the question, so 
I’ve had  to generate a ticket in their support system. A lot of LC people use 
DreamHost, and as I say it was kind of working until I foolishly binned my 7 
series version in favour of 8.1.

What scares me is having to do command-line stuff on an OS I know absolutely 
nothing about. The instructions and installation notes I’ve read so far don’t 
work for someone with that particular phobia.

Cheers

Graham

> On 14 Sep 2016, at 18:08, Peter TB Brett  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 14/09/2016 16:57, Graham Samuel wrote:
>> I admit to knowing nothing at all about Linux. I am using Jacque’s Zygodact 
>> product running as a CGI as part of a website which is hosted by DreamHost - 
>> this is to sell a product via FastSpring. Matthias Rebbe has very generously 
>> explained how to do this (I mean how to set up the selling of a download 
>> product via FastSpring using Zygodact to get the license codes). I 
>> **almost** got it working (it actually did work for one out of two products) 
>> when I noticed that the version of LiveCode Server I was using was one of 
>> the LC7 series, so I decided to update it.
>> 
>> Now nothing works, and the instructions on the LiveCode site don’t seem to 
>> apply to me at all - they seem to imply that I have full control of Apache 
>> on DreamHost, but I don’t. All I’ve got is my own modest web presence, a CGI 
>> folder and so on. I tried simply replacing the old LC Server folder with the 
>> new one, but that seems to have no effect at all. I can’t run a test program 
>> (test.lc or whatever) from a browser, and the tests which were working on 
>> the FastSpring site - which call LC programs on the server - now don’t work 
>> at all.
>> 
>> Obviously I have made a massive error, but what is it? I just want to be 
>> able to run some .lc programs on the server - it doesn’t seem much to ask.
>> 
>> In over my head and seeking any advice.
>> 
> 
> Hi Graham,
> 
> What version of Linux is your server running?  LiveCode 8.1 server is 
> expected to run on:
> 
> - CentOS 7
> - Debian 7 (wheezy)
> - Debian 8 (jessie)
> - Ubuntu 14.04
> - Ubuntu 16.04
> - Fedora 23
> - Fedora 24
> 
>   Peter
> 
> -- 
> Dr Peter Brett 
> LiveCode Technical Project Manager
> 
> lcb-mode for Emacs: https://github.com/peter-b/lcb-mode
> 
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Re: LiveCode Server 8.1 - installing

[Peter TB Brett]

On 14/09/2016 16:57, Graham Samuel wrote:

I admit to knowing nothing at all about Linux. I am using Jacque’s Zygodact 
product running as a CGI as part of a website which is hosted by DreamHost - 
this is to sell a product via FastSpring. Matthias Rebbe has very generously 
explained how to do this (I mean how to set up the selling of a download 
product via FastSpring using Zygodact to get the license codes). I **almost** 
got it working (it actually did work for one out of two products) when I 
noticed that the version of LiveCode Server I was using was one of the LC7 
series, so I decided to update it.

Now nothing works, and the instructions on the LiveCode site don’t seem to 
apply to me at all - they seem to imply that I have full control of Apache on 
DreamHost, but I don’t. All I’ve got is my own modest web presence, a CGI 
folder and so on. I tried simply replacing the old LC Server folder with the 
new one, but that seems to have no effect at all. I can’t run a test program 
(test.lc or whatever) from a browser, and the tests which were working on the 
FastSpring site - which call LC programs on the server - now don’t work at all.

Obviously I have made a massive error, but what is it? I just want to be able 
to run some .lc programs on the server - it doesn’t seem much to ask.

In over my head and seeking any advice.



Hi Graham,

What version of Linux is your server running?  LiveCode 8.1 server is 
expected to run on:


- CentOS 7
- Debian 7 (wheezy)
- Debian 8 (jessie)
- Ubuntu 14.04
- Ubuntu 16.04
- Fedora 23
- Fedora 24

   Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Technical Project Manager

lcb-mode for Emacs: https://github.com/peter-b/lcb-mode

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