Re: LiveCode interface to SCORM /LIT

[William Prothero]

Martin:
It would be great if you joined the team. There hasn’t been much/any action 
since the Google hangouts meetup. The direction seemed to be to begin with an 
LTI interface to Moodle, just to get things rolling. That was based on the idea 
that LTI serviced the 3 most widely used LMS’s: Moodle, Blackboard, and Canvas. 
After some experience with that, the team could branch out. Each LMS appears to 
have its own idiosyncrasies, so there would have to be allowance for the 
differences.

The basic functionality would be:
1. user authentication and login, which would connect the app to the LMS
2. reporting of student actions
3. reporting of activity grade, if the app does the grading.

The main organizer of the group was William Jamieson and his last email to the 
group seemed to indicate that his project is pretty different in scope from 
what was described above, so he had a much lower stake in the outcome. I asked 
him for more information about his project so we could find common ground, but 
haven’t heard anything yet.

For educators, this could be a really exciting project and an entryway for an 
entirely new livecode audience. My personal contribution can’t be on the 
implementation of the protocols though. It would be a major effort and out of 
my field. However, the strategies and interfaces to the teacher/programmer and 
testing would be something I could contribute to.

One caveat is that my experience is based on what I know about the use of LMS’s 
by higher education. I retired before LMS’s got so popular and only SCORM 
existed at the time. Also there are other platforms that serve learning 
materials oriented toward K-12. For example, I was fairly impressed with some 
of the capabilities of Google’s education platform. It has great resources for 
Chromebooks and I haven’t explored whether there is any possible interface for 
external apps. My son is an elementary teacher and the low cost of Chromebooks 
makes that platform very attractive for elementary school teaching. I include 
this only to make my relative ignorance of other realms of education clear.

I know little about training for commercial and military customers. I do know 
that SCORM was developed for a fairly simple learning model and is a 
requirement for many of the military’s learning software purchases. Also, the 
education market is very different from when Hypercard was first introduced, so 
the enthusiastic adoption of Hypercard by college teachers who wanted to 
distribute learning materials to their students, may not be as easy to rebuild.

From my perspective as a retired college prof who has done a lot of educational 
technology (but not interfaced to LMS), the higher ed market is a ripe one. 
Livecode, with its power and ease of creating educational materials, could find 
a receptive audience for content creators with a bit of technical courage. 

But, what is needed, IMHO, is a suite of development tools targeted at that 
audience. It could be a major entry point for teachers and content developers 
and if it was easy to use, provide a new audience of livecode users. It would 
have to have sample stacks that did the basic operations, like log in to an 
LMS, report some subset of student actions, and report a grade for an activity. 
LTI was developed to provide a richer suite of information about student 
learning, rather than simply sending a grade. Educators found SCORM to be too 
limiting.

Here’s some of my perspective on online learning: When beginning as new 
technology implementers, they seem to start out following a textbook model, 
with presenting a bunch of content that students read, then they give a quiz. 
After they do this (since students aren’t all that impressed), they try to 
spiff up the reading part with better graphics, perhaps animations, and then 
they give a quiz. Then (again, learning and engagement doesn’t seem to improve) 
they try to spiff up the quiz by having the student click on various parts of a 
graphic, or do something more than answer a multiple choice question. I think 
these approaches can be a valuable element to help students get some basic 
knowledge and to test themselves on whether they have learned the material (I 
believe that learning needs to go much deeper). However, they don’t begin to 
use the rich capabilities of the technology. Livecode is in an excellent 
position to support simulations and more sophisticated learning products.

Some of the most effective apps are simulations where students enter 
parameters, observe the results, and report their findings and conclusions. 
Writing is an important element of that. Here is a link to a publication of 
mine where I implemented scientific exploration, science paper writing, and 
peer review in a large oceanography class:
http://es.earthednet.org/downloads/pubs/PROTHERO.pdf 

I feel that the writing process is essential. It is where students digest and 
organize their 

Re: LiveCode interface to SCORM /LIT

[Martin Koob]

Hi Bill

Thanks for all the information about LTI etc.   I am open to whatever it the
best option for compatibility.  I had only read about Tin-Can xAPI.I am
developing an app for higher education and some potential customers said it
had to be based on SCORM to integrate with their LMS.  When I looked at how
SCORM worked I realized it would not work at all with the type of
application I am developing.   Further searches lead to me finding Tin-Can
and I realized that was the way for me to go.   

Bottom line is I want to be able to integrate with the LMS's used by
colleges and universities so If LTI is the best way to do that I will jump
on the bandwagon.   

I just noticed a post about a meeting on Oct 6th to discuss this:
 
*LiveCode to Education Industry API- Community project*

http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=107=28034=147152#p147152

I noticed it too late to attend but I want to learn more about what happened
there.

Martin Koob



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Re: LiveCode interface to SCORM /LIT

[William Prothero]

By the way, I just fully read the link I posted in my previous message and it 
is a long, but very complete discussion of the various interfaces to learning 
system, targeted just right at our audience.

Check it out if you are interested in this topic. 
Bill
http://www.laceproject.eu/learning-analytics-review/files/2016/08/LACE-review07_xapi-caliper.pdf
 

 
>


> On Sep 23, 2016, at 12:53 PM, William Prothero  
> wrote:
> 
> Folks:
> Here’s some more info I found on interfaces to LMS. I queried the director (a 
> friend) of the Office of Instructional Improvement at the University of 
> California, Santa Barbara and got this response:
> 
> "Hey, good to hear from you.  Sorry for the delayed response, but yesterday 
> was the first day of classes for fall.  I also had to do a bit of research. 
> In terms of interoperability with LMS’s  the best option, I think, is for the 
> Livecode guys to focus on the LTI 2 standards and APIs for defining an LTI 2 
> content publisher and LTI 2 content consumer.  That is the interoperability 
> piece.  xAPI is a set of API’s for collecting and storing user interaction 
> data for later analysis, e.g. learning analytics.  It is a standard proposed 
> by ADL.  It is kind of competing in that space with Caliper with is being 
> developed by IMS global, and which is intended to work with the LTI 2 
> standard which IMS Global is also developing. I would think that it would be 
> better to stick with the whole IMS Global suite of interoperability standards 
> and analytics collection standards than trying to knit LTI 2 and xAPI, but 
> that’s just me.  The UC system has been very involved with development of 
> both standards working with IMS Global for the past three years.  Hope that 
> helps.”
> 
> A useful Link:
> http://www.laceproject.eu/learning-analytics-review/files/2016/08/LACE-review07_xapi-caliper.pdf
>  
> 
> 
> Best,
> Bill
> 
>> On Sep 22, 2016, at 7:19 AM, Martin Koob  wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks for the link to LTI. I am interested in a technology that could
>> integrate my LiveCode app into LMS's. 
>> 
>> I think that Tin-Can API or the ExperienceAPI (xAPI) were also developed as
>> a successor to SCORM to address its shortcomings.  
>> https://experienceapi.com/history/
>> 
>> They list a number of adopters including BlackBoard and Moodle
>> 
>> http://experienceapi.com/adopters/
>> 
>> Have you heard of this?  Would this api accomplish what you are trying to
>> do?
>> 
>> Martin
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
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>> http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/LiveCode-interface-to-SCORM-LIT-tp4708670p4708773.html
>> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: LiveCode interface to SCORM /LIT

[William Prothero]

Folks:
Here’s some more info I found on interfaces to LMS. I queried the director (a 
friend) of the Office of Instructional Improvement at the University of 
California, Santa Barbara and got this response:

"Hey, good to hear from you.  Sorry for the delayed response, but yesterday was 
the first day of classes for fall.  I also had to do a bit of research. In 
terms of interoperability with LMS’s  the best option, I think, is for the 
Livecode guys to focus on the LTI 2 standards and APIs for defining an LTI 2 
content publisher and LTI 2 content consumer.  That is the interoperability 
piece.  xAPI is a set of API’s for collecting and storing user interaction data 
for later analysis, e.g. learning analytics.  It is a standard proposed by ADL. 
 It is kind of competing in that space with Caliper with is being developed by 
IMS global, and which is intended to work with the LTI 2 standard which IMS 
Global is also developing. I would think that it would be better to stick with 
the whole IMS Global suite of interoperability standards and analytics 
collection standards than trying to knit LTI 2 and xAPI, but that’s just me.  
The UC system has been very involved with development of both standards working 
with IMS Global for the past three years.  Hope that helps.”

A useful Link:
http://www.laceproject.eu/learning-analytics-review/files/2016/08/LACE-review07_xapi-caliper.pdf
 


Best,
Bill

> On Sep 22, 2016, at 7:19 AM, Martin Koob  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the link to LTI. I am interested in a technology that could
> integrate my LiveCode app into LMS's. 
> 
> I think that Tin-Can API or the ExperienceAPI (xAPI) were also developed as
> a successor to SCORM to address its shortcomings.  
> https://experienceapi.com/history/
> 
> They list a number of adopters including BlackBoard and Moodle
> 
> http://experienceapi.com/adopters/
> 
> Have you heard of this?  Would this api accomplish what you are trying to
> do?
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/LiveCode-interface-to-SCORM-LIT-tp4708670p4708773.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
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Re: LiveCode interface to SCORM /LIT

[William Prothero]

Martin:
Just a thought. Since Todd Fabacher is in a group working on LTI (he called it 
LIT, but I think he meant LTI), and he will make the code open source, I think, 
for me anyway, it’s best to wait for the result of their efforts. LTI has a 
pretty wide capability. SCORM came about and was made popular by the US Defense 
dept. making it required for folks wanting to sell them training modules for 
their purposes. But, for higher ed, SCORM enforces an out-dated learning model 
that would not be adequate for more modern teaching pedagogies.

Best,
Bill
> On Sep 22, 2016, at 7:19 AM, Martin Koob  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the link to LTI. I am interested in a technology that could
> integrate my LiveCode app into LMS's. 
> 
> I think that Tin-Can API or the ExperienceAPI (xAPI) were also developed as
> a successor to SCORM to address its shortcomings.  
> https://experienceapi.com/history/
> 
> They list a number of adopters including BlackBoard and Moodle
> 
> http://experienceapi.com/adopters/
> 
> Have you heard of this?  Would this api accomplish what you are trying to
> do?
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/LiveCode-interface-to-SCORM-LIT-tp4708670p4708773.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
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Re: LiveCode interface to SCORM /LIT

[William Prothero]

Martin:
Just a thought. Since Todd Fabacher is in a group working on LTI (he called it 
LIT, but I think he meant LTI), and he will make the code open source, I think, 
for me anyway, it’s best to wait for the result of their efforts. LTI has a 
pretty wide capability. SCORM came about and was made popular by the US Defense 
dept. making it required for folks wanting to sell them training modules for 
their purposes. But, for higher ed, SCORM enforces an out-dated learning model 
that would not be adequate for more modern teaching pedagogies.

Best,
Bill


> On Sep 22, 2016, at 7:19 AM, Martin Koob  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the link to LTI. I am interested in a technology that could
> integrate my LiveCode app into LMS's. 
> 
> I think that Tin-Can API or the ExperienceAPI (xAPI) were also developed as
> a successor to SCORM to address its shortcomings.  
> https://experienceapi.com/history/
> 
> They list a number of adopters including BlackBoard and Moodle
> 
> http://experienceapi.com/adopters/
> 
> Have you heard of this?  Would this api accomplish what you are trying to
> do?
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/LiveCode-interface-to-SCORM-LIT-tp4708670p4708773.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
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Re: LiveCode interface to SCORM /LIT

[Earthednet-wp]

Martin,
I hadn't heard about xAPI. I've really just dabbled in this subject. I know 
that my campus uses a highly customized version of Moodle, so it would be 
compatible with xAPI. Our local community college is changing over to Canvas 
after using Moodle, and before that, Blackboard. An organization I'm involved 
with that distributes higher Ed learning resources 
(http://serc.carleton.edu/index.html) uses a protocol called "Common 
Cartridge". 

The api needs to allow for stand-alone app integration, for my purposes. When I 
look at the docs for these api's, my eyes roll back in my head and I realize it 
would be a major project for me to implement this interface for my work. I give 
my projects away for free, so putting that kind of investment into the LMS api 
doesn't make sense for me. However, that said, I am interested and would be 
interested in using and/or testing, and following progress with those who might 
develop a livecode framework.

One thing I do know is that SCORM is inadequate for higher Ed. It forces a 
specific learning model that is outdated.

I will see if I can get some information from our Moodle IT guys at UCSB.

Best,
Bill

 

William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

> On Sep 22, 2016, at 7:19 AM, Martin Koob  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the link to LTI. I am interested in a technology that could
> integrate my LiveCode app into LMS's. 
> 
> I think that Tin-Can API or the ExperienceAPI (xAPI) were also developed as
> a successor to SCORM to address its shortcomings.  
> https://experienceapi.com/history/
> 
> They list a number of adopters including BlackBoard and Moodle
> 
> http://experienceapi.com/adopters/
> 
> Have you heard of this?  Would this api accomplish what you are trying to
> do?
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/LiveCode-interface-to-SCORM-LIT-tp4708670p4708773.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
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Re: LiveCode interface to SCORM /LIT

[Martin Koob]

Thanks for the link to LTI. I am interested in a technology that could
integrate my LiveCode app into LMS's. 

I think that Tin-Can API or the ExperienceAPI (xAPI) were also developed as
a successor to SCORM to address its shortcomings.  
https://experienceapi.com/history/

They list a number of adopters including BlackBoard and Moodle

http://experienceapi.com/adopters/

Have you heard of this?  Would this api accomplish what you are trying to
do?

Martin






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Re: LiveCode interface to SCORM /LIT

[William Prothero]

Martin:
It’s actually LTI here is a link:
http://www.imsglobal.org/activity/learning-tools-interoperability 


There is another protocol that is getting support in the US called “Common 
Cartridge”. Link:
https://www.imsglobal.org/cc/ccfaqs.html#37 


Common cartridge seems to have been built in response to the shortcomings of 
SCORM. SCORM is most useful for training, while Common Cartridge and LTI are 
more oriented toward higher ed, with more features necessary for assessment of 
student learning.

If an investment is to be made in developing software to interface with an LMS, 
I hope they can interface with a variety of popular platforms, like Moodle, 
Blackboard, Canvas, and others I haven’t come across.

Best,
Bill

> On Sep 20, 2016, at 9:52 AM, Martin Koob  wrote:
> 
> Oh, One more question.
> 
> What is LIT?  
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Martin Koob
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
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Re: LiveCode interface to SCORM /LIT

[Martin Koob]

Oh, One more question.

What is LIT?  

Thanks.

Martin Koob



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Re: LiveCode interface to SCORM /LIT

[Martin Koob]

I am interested integrating my app with an LMS but felt there were too many
limitations with SCORM.   I then found the Tin Can API.   

http://tincanapi.com/scorm-vs-the-tin-can-api/

Could this be another approach to integrating LiveCode and an LMS?

Martin Koob



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Re: LiveCode interface to SCORM /LIT

[Earthednet-wp]

Todd,
There's another LMS interface gaining some use, called "Common Cartridge". It 
addresses shortcomings that SCORM has for assessment of learning and will 
probably displace SCORM in higher Ed.
https://www.imsglobal.org/cc/ccfaqs.html#37

Best,
Bill

William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

> On Sep 19, 2016, at 10:47 PM, Earthednet-wp  wrote:
> 
> Todd,
> Fabulous! It will be a great resource for higher Ed developers. I'll see what 
> I can do to test it at UCSB when it is available.
> Best,
> Bill
> 
> William Prothero
> http://es.earthednet.org
> 
>> On Sep 19, 2016, at 10:02 PM, Todd Fabacher  wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Educators,
>> 
>> Will Jamieson, and the DP teem are deep into creating an online and App
>> integrated LMS in LiveCode. We are at the stage of creating  a SCORM and
>> LIT interface to our App. I see that several people have posted on the
>> subject and was wondering if anyone has finished, made any progress or have
>> suggestions that would help us out.
>> 
>> We would appreciate any help in getting in using LiveCode with SCORM /LIT.
>> One potential client is focused on full LIT compatibility. We of course
>> will make the SCORM /LIT code Open Source for all educators.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Todd, Will and DP Education Team
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Re: LiveCode interface to SCORM /LIT

[Earthednet-wp]

Todd,
Fabulous! It will be a great resource for higher Ed developers. I'll see what I 
can do to test it at UCSB when it is available.
Best,
Bill

William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

> On Sep 19, 2016, at 10:02 PM, Todd Fabacher  wrote:
> 
> Hello Educators,
> 
> Will Jamieson, and the DP teem are deep into creating an online and App
> integrated LMS in LiveCode. We are at the stage of creating  a SCORM and
> LIT interface to our App. I see that several people have posted on the
> subject and was wondering if anyone has finished, made any progress or have
> suggestions that would help us out.
> 
> We would appreciate any help in getting in using LiveCode with SCORM /LIT.
> One potential client is focused on full LIT compatibility. We of course
> will make the SCORM /LIT code Open Source for all educators.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Todd, Will and DP Education Team
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