Re: Problem with converting time

2017-03-20 Thread pink via use-livecode
My experience is that HostM's time is set to GMT

when I run:
put 1489755600 into tVar 
convert tVar into dateitems 
put tVar

I get: 2017,3,17,13,0,0,6



-
---
Greg (pink) Miller
mad, pink and dangerous to code
--
View this message in context: 
http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Problem-with-converting-time-tp4713116p4713208.html
Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: Problem with converting time

2017-03-19 Thread Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode
Hmm, this is odd if you are located in North Carolina…it means your server is 
off shore, out in the Atlantic, because it is running 3 hours ahead of you. 
but, unless HostM has now floatilla ISP data center ships, or secret bunkers on 
the sea floor, something is amiss.

Ditto everything Richard already said Thanks Richard! Your prolific penchant 
for mentoring/documentation is really appreciagted!  I saved all that to my 
reference here…

put 1489755600 into tVar
convert tVar into dateitems
   -- on the mac tVar contains 2017,3,17,9,0,0,6  # North Carolina
   -- on the server tVar contains 2017,3,17,12,0,0,6 # Huh!  three hour ahead ?

Am I daft? this seem impossible as this indicates 9 am in NC = 12 noon on the 
server.

I had issues a long time ago, because the ISP would spin up an instance of 
Linux using a disk image--  some generic OS image. They never bothered to reset 
the time zone for the OS…many ISP tech's  assume the user is savvy -- "Well, 
it's your server, set it up the way you like it.") and will want to do that 
themselves.   

But naïve users don’t give it a second thought and I got these weird results 
until I checked, like Richard suggested, the time and zone on the server itself 
and reset them. There was a time when I thought it would be cool to set the 
time zone of the OS in California to the same time zone as Hawaii (local) but 
later this turned about to be a bad strategy because, really, like Richard 
said, you want everything to be "the same moment" around the global, which of 
course means, the time in each location, for that moment will be different.   
Any other way…  "therein lies madness"  

I had to master the simple "art" of understanding GMT and local conversions.  
So if your host is in Texas, make sure the TZ/Time on the "box" is correct for 
its real, physical locationin Dallas or where ever… and then if you want the 
web page to "pretend" the server is in NC, you would add time to the output. 
(or subtract time from your inputs in your scripts.) 

interesting related resource : https://www.epochconverter.com/

https://www.epochconverter.com/clock

BR


 



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Re: Problem with converting time

2017-03-17 Thread J. Landman Gay via use-livecode

On 03/17/2017 03:52 PM, Michael Doub via use-livecode wrote:


getaData[x]["time"]


Wherever the array is getting its time data, that's where local time is 
happening.


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Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Problem with converting time

2017-03-17 Thread Mark Wieder via use-livecode

On 03/17/2017 03:52 PM, Michael Doub via use-livecode wrote:

Sorry Mark and Richard.   Here is the real code snipit that includes a
hack that seems to work:

getaData[x]["time"]
if not(theenvironmentisamongtheitems"development,standalone
application") then
subtract(4*60*60) fromit
end if
convertit todateitems


Weird copypasta stuff with spaces there.



Mark, in your situation, you and the server are in the same timezone so
I would not expect to see a problem.   I have no idea where my server
is, but it must not be in my timezone.  I am guessing on the west coast
since taking off 4 hours seems to fix the problem.


That just sounds wrong. If anything, it should be the other way around.



It still does not make any sense why a timezone comes into play at all.


Timezone enters into the picture because if you ask the time, and then 
convert it to a readable format, you wouldn't expect to see UTC time 
unless you happened to live in that time zone. You're asking the server 
"what time is it where you live?" and asking the mac the same thing. The 
answers may or may not differ. If you want to be able to compare 
timestamps then "the internet date" will give you UTC time for both.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com


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Re: Problem with converting time

2017-03-17 Thread Richard Gaskin via use-livecode

Mike Doub wrote:

> I am in Chapel Hill,  NC.   I am using Hostm and I really don't
> know,   I would have expected the time to be less if on the west
> coast of the US.

We don't yet know the location of the server, but even better you can 
find out what time zone it's set to by logging in via SSH and running:


date +%Z

If you're running the convert command on the server I think you'll find 
the converted output differs from your local conversion by the number of 
time zones between you and the server.


I took the time to write this, maybe worth reading and trying the 
exercise I included near the end:

http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2017-March/235470.html

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Problem with converting time

2017-03-17 Thread Michael Doub via use-livecode
Sorry Mark and Richard.   Here is the real code snipit that includes a 
hack that seems to work:


getaData[x]["time"]
if not(theenvironmentisamongtheitems"development,standalone 
application") then

subtract(4*60*60) fromit
end if
convertit todateitems

Mark, in your situation, you and the server are in the same timezone so 
I would not expect to see a problem.   I have no idea where my server 
is, but it must not be in my timezone.  I am guessing on the west coast 
since taking off 4 hours seems to fix the problem.


It still does not make any sense why a timezone comes into play at all.

Here is the silly little app:   Http://tarwheels.net/weather   It has 
been really cold  here the last few days and I was not able to cycle, so 
this was a fun diversion.  Seems to work, but it has not had much 
testing.  And as you can see I know next to nothing about making things 
look nice in html.


-= Mike


On 3/17/17 4:42 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:

On 03/17/2017 01:20 PM, Michael Doub via use-livecode wrote:

Sorry guys, I must not have been clear in my statement of the problem.
Here is the code:

put 1489755600 into tVar
convert tVar into dateitems
 -- on the mac tVar contains 2017,3,17,9,0,0,6
 -- on the server tVar contains 2017,3,17,12,0,0,6

The local time should not be involved since you are converting a fixed
value.  What is happening?


Sorry - I can't replicate that.
With the desktop and server engines running on the same machine,

put 1489755600 into tVar
convert tVar into dateitems

gives me
IDE message box: 2017,3,17,6,0,0,6
server:  2017,3,17,6,0,0,6

Note that "convert into" is not supported.
It might be better to post the code you're actually using.



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Re: Problem with converting time

2017-03-17 Thread Mike Doub via use-livecode
I am in Chapel Hill,  NC.   I am using Hostm and I really don't know,   I would 
have expected the time to be less if on the west coast of the US.  

Mike


  Original Message  
From: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Sent: March 17, 2017 5:30 PM
To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Reply-to: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Cc: ambassa...@fourthworld.com
Subject: Re: Problem with converting time

Michael Doub wrote:
> Sorry guys, I must not have been clear in my statement of the
> problem.
> Here is the code:
>
> put 1489755600 into tVar
> convert tVar into dateitems
>   -- on the mac tVar contains 2017,3,17,9,0,0,6
>   -- on the server tVar contains 2017,3,17,12,0,0,6
>
> The local time should not be involved since you are converting a
> fixed value.  What is happening?

Humor me: what city is your server in, and what city are you in?

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  
  ambassa...@fourthworld.com    http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Problem with converting time

2017-03-17 Thread Richard Gaskin via use-livecode

Michael Doub wrote:
> Sorry guys, I must not have been clear in my statement of the
> problem.
> Here is the code:
>
> put 1489755600 into tVar
> convert tVar into dateitems
>   -- on the mac tVar contains 2017,3,17,9,0,0,6
>   -- on the server tVar contains 2017,3,17,12,0,0,6
>
> The local time should not be involved since you are converting a
> fixed value.  What is happening?

Humor me: what city is your server in, and what city are you in?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Problem with converting time

2017-03-17 Thread Mark Wieder via use-livecode

On 03/17/2017 01:20 PM, Michael Doub via use-livecode wrote:

Sorry guys, I must not have been clear in my statement of the problem.
Here is the code:

put 1489755600 into tVar
convert tVar into dateitems
 -- on the mac tVar contains 2017,3,17,9,0,0,6
 -- on the server tVar contains 2017,3,17,12,0,0,6

The local time should not be involved since you are converting a fixed
value.  What is happening?


Sorry - I can't replicate that.
With the desktop and server engines running on the same machine,

put 1489755600 into tVar
convert tVar into dateitems

gives me
IDE message box: 2017,3,17,6,0,0,6
server:  2017,3,17,6,0,0,6

Note that "convert into" is not supported.
It might be better to post the code you're actually using.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com



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Re: Problem with converting time

2017-03-17 Thread Michael Doub via use-livecode
Sorry guys, I must not have been clear in my statement of the problem.  
Here is the code:


put 1489755600 into tVar
convert tVar into dateitems
 -- on the mac tVar contains 2017,3,17,9,0,0,6
 -- on the server tVar contains 2017,3,17,12,0,0,6

The local time should not be involved since you are converting a fixed 
value.  What is happening?


-= Mike


On 3/17/17 12:44 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

Michael Doub wrote:

> time = 1489755600
> Mac:  dateitems = 2017,3,17,9,0,0,6
> server:   dateitems = 2017,3,17,12,0,0,6
>
> Code:   get time
> convertit to dateitems
>
> Richard here is another example:
> time = 1489752000
> mac:dateitems = 2017,3,17,8,0,0,6
> server: dateitems = 2017,3,17,12,0,0,6
>
> I just wanted to double check that I was showing you good comparison
> since I am copying from multiple windows of debug output.
>
> I don't understand how the local time comes into play when converting
> a constant number of seconds.  The resulting date should be a
> constant as well.
>
> What am I missing?

The beauty of "the seconds" is that the value you get is in GMT, 
regardless of where the machine is at the moment that value of 
obtained.  It does the offset according to the locale settings on the 
local machine.


"The seconds" and "the internet date" are the only two forms that take 
local time zone settings into account.


The benefit with this approach is that either can be used in 
applications where usage may span time zones but you need to maintain 
time stamps that will work across any time zones.



For example, suppose I'm in Los Angeles and I share a server app with 
one user in New York, another in Brisbane, and another in Edinburgh.


GMT offsets for each are:

Edinburgh: 0
New York: -4h
Los Angeles: -7h
Brisbane: +10h (they're across the International Dateline)

The "internet date" format reflects this explicitly, noting the GMT 
offset at the end of the string it returns:


  Fri, 17 Mar 2017 09:09:03 -0700

But "the seconds" of course is just an integer, so while the GMT 
offset has also been accounted for it's less evident.


If all four of us get "the seconds" at the same moment, the value we 
get will be the same, in GMT time.


But since only one of us is actually in the GMT time zone, how does it 
know?  That's where the local system settings come into play.


When *obtaining* either "the seconds" or "the internet date", local 
time zone is used to create a value that can be understood globally.


When *converting* either "the seconds" or "the internet date", LC uses 
time conversion routines dependent on the system locale settings of 
the machine where the conversion is taking place.


With "the internet date" the time zone is explicitly included, so it 
adjusts from that GMT offset to bring it into alignment with the GMT 
offset in the local OS.


With "the seconds", the value is already adjusted to be GMT, so 
conversion adjusts it again for the local settings to deliver an 
accurate representation of that moment in local time.



In the example above, all four users would get the same value from 
querying "the seconds" at the same moment, no matter where they are in 
the world.


And when my software needs to display the date and/or time in 
human-readable form, the "convert" command takes local settings into 
account to deliver an accurate representation that makes sense in 
local time.


So if I modify a record right now, in my system it'll show March 17 at 
9:18 AM.  But when my Brisbane use sees the modification date that 
I've stored using "the seconds", he'll see March 18 at 2:18 AM, which 
is the same global moment.



In short:

The key to getting accurate reflections of time is to store either 
"the seconds" or "the internet date" on the server (or really, 
anywhere timestamps may be shared across time zones), and then do any 
conversions needed for human readability locally.


If you do a conversion from either of those two formats on the server 
to any other format, the result will be correct for the server's 
locale, but unless you're nearby probably not correct for you.



Quick Exercise:

It took me a while (and some experimentation) to appreciate that "the 
seconds" reflects GMT just as "the internet date" does, something I 
learned from Sarah Reichelt back in the day.


One quick way to verify this is to check while changing your local 
machine's Date and Time settings:


Set to Los Angeles: 1489768020
5 seconds later,
Set to Montreal:1489768025
10 seconds after that,
Set to London:  1489768035

Except for the few seconds it took me to click on my Locale map in my 
Control Panel, the numbers are effectively all the same.


Once I became confident with that, I've used it for everything on 
servers ever since (except logging - I like the built-in readability 
of "internet date" in logs).





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Re: Problem with converting time

2017-03-17 Thread Richard Gaskin via use-livecode

Michael Doub wrote:

> time = 1489755600
> Mac:  dateitems = 2017,3,17,9,0,0,6
> server:   dateitems = 2017,3,17,12,0,0,6
>
> Code:   get time
> convertit to dateitems
>
> Richard here is another example:
> time = 1489752000
> mac:dateitems = 2017,3,17,8,0,0,6
> server: dateitems = 2017,3,17,12,0,0,6
>
> I just wanted to double check that I was showing you good comparison
> since I am copying from multiple windows of debug output.
>
> I don't understand how the local time comes into play when converting
> a constant number of seconds.  The resulting date should be a
> constant as well.
>
> What am I missing?

The beauty of "the seconds" is that the value you get is in GMT, 
regardless of where the machine is at the moment that value of obtained. 
 It does the offset according to the locale settings on the local machine.


"The seconds" and "the internet date" are the only two forms that take 
local time zone settings into account.


The benefit with this approach is that either can be used in 
applications where usage may span time zones but you need to maintain 
time stamps that will work across any time zones.



For example, suppose I'm in Los Angeles and I share a server app with 
one user in New York, another in Brisbane, and another in Edinburgh.


GMT offsets for each are:

Edinburgh: 0
New York: -4h
Los Angeles: -7h
Brisbane: +10h (they're across the International Dateline)

The "internet date" format reflects this explicitly, noting the GMT 
offset at the end of the string it returns:


  Fri, 17 Mar 2017 09:09:03 -0700

But "the seconds" of course is just an integer, so while the GMT offset 
has also been accounted for it's less evident.


If all four of us get "the seconds" at the same moment, the value we get 
will be the same, in GMT time.


But since only one of us is actually in the GMT time zone, how does it 
know?  That's where the local system settings come into play.


When *obtaining* either "the seconds" or "the internet date", local time 
zone is used to create a value that can be understood globally.


When *converting* either "the seconds" or "the internet date", LC uses 
time conversion routines dependent on the system locale settings of the 
machine where the conversion is taking place.


With "the internet date" the time zone is explicitly included, so it 
adjusts from that GMT offset to bring it into alignment with the GMT 
offset in the local OS.


With "the seconds", the value is already adjusted to be GMT, so 
conversion adjusts it again for the local settings to deliver an 
accurate representation of that moment in local time.



In the example above, all four users would get the same value from 
querying "the seconds" at the same moment, no matter where they are in 
the world.


And when my software needs to display the date and/or time in 
human-readable form, the "convert" command takes local settings into 
account to deliver an accurate representation that makes sense in local 
time.


So if I modify a record right now, in my system it'll show March 17 at 
9:18 AM.  But when my Brisbane use sees the modification date that I've 
stored using "the seconds", he'll see March 18 at 2:18 AM, which is the 
same global moment.



In short:

The key to getting accurate reflections of time is to store either "the 
seconds" or "the internet date" on the server (or really, anywhere 
timestamps may be shared across time zones), and then do any conversions 
needed for human readability locally.


If you do a conversion from either of those two formats on the server to 
any other format, the result will be correct for the server's locale, 
but unless you're nearby probably not correct for you.



Quick Exercise:

It took me a while (and some experimentation) to appreciate that "the 
seconds" reflects GMT just as "the internet date" does, something I 
learned from Sarah Reichelt back in the day.


One quick way to verify this is to check while changing your local 
machine's Date and Time settings:


Set to Los Angeles: 1489768020
5 seconds later,
Set to Montreal:1489768025
10 seconds after that,
Set to London:  1489768035

Except for the few seconds it took me to click on my Locale map in my 
Control Panel, the numbers are effectively all the same.


Once I became confident with that, I've used it for everything on 
servers ever since (except logging - I like the built-in readability of 
"internet date" in logs).


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Problem with converting time

2017-03-17 Thread Mark Wieder via use-livecode

On 03/17/2017 05:46 AM, Michael Doub via use-livecode wrote:

time = 1489755600

Mac:  dateitems = 2017,3,17,9,0,0,6
server:   dateitems = 2017,3,17,12,0,0,6

Code:   get time
convertit to dateitems

I don't understand how the local time comes into play when converting a
constant number of seconds.  The resulting date should be a constant as
well.

What am I missing?


That seems reasonable to me.

  I haven't been following this discussion


"get the time" will get a value based on the system's local time zone, 
so what you're thinking of as a constant is actually dependent on the 
system location. It looks to me like the server is three time zones away 
from the mac. If you don't want time zones to enter into the calculations


get the internet date
convert it to dateitems

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com


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Re: Problem with converting time

2017-03-17 Thread Michael Doub via use-livecode

Richard here is another example:

time = 1489752000

mac: dateitems = 2017,3,17,8,0,0,6

server: dateitems = 2017,3,17,12,0,0,6

I just wanted to double check that I was showing you good comparison 
since I am copying from multiple windows of debug output.


-= Mike

On 3/17/17 8:46 AM, Michael Doub wrote:


time = 1489755600

Mac:  dateitems = 2017,3,17,9,0,0,6
server:   dateitems = 2017,3,17,12,0,0,6

Code:   get time
convertit to dateitems

I don't understand how the local time comes into play when converting 
a constant number of seconds.  The resulting date should be a constant 
as well.


What am I missing?

-= Mike


On 3/16/17 4:05 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

Michael Doub wrote:

> I am getting different answers based on environment when trying to
> convert EPOC seconds to dateitems or internet date.   On my mac I get
> the expected result but on a HostM server I get something totally
> different.

How different?

> Does any one have a conversion function that does not use the
> livecode's convert function that they would be willing to share?

The seconds are usually a very good choice for their compactness and 
ease of calculation, and more so because the value we get is in GMT 
based on the offset from host OS.


What this should mean is that you can convert values obtained from 
"the seconds" and get a good date/time regardless of which time zone 
you're in.


So seconds are usually ideal (along with "internet date") for network 
applications such as the one you're working on.


But for the conversion to take your local system into account, you'll 
need to do the conversion locally.


If you're doing the conversion on the server, the date/time will 
reflect the time zone settings in the server OS.






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Re: Problem with converting time

2017-03-17 Thread Michael Doub via use-livecode

time = 1489755600

Mac:  dateitems = 2017,3,17,9,0,0,6
server:   dateitems = 2017,3,17,12,0,0,6

Code:   get time
convertit to dateitems

I don't understand how the local time comes into play when converting a 
constant number of seconds.  The resulting date should be a constant as 
well.


What am I missing?

-= Mike


On 3/16/17 4:05 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

Michael Doub wrote:

> I am getting different answers based on environment when trying to
> convert EPOC seconds to dateitems or internet date.   On my mac I get
> the expected result but on a HostM server I get something totally
> different.

How different?

> Does any one have a conversion function that does not use the
> livecode's convert function that they would be willing to share?

The seconds are usually a very good choice for their compactness and 
ease of calculation, and more so because the value we get is in GMT 
based on the offset from host OS.


What this should mean is that you can convert values obtained from 
"the seconds" and get a good date/time regardless of which time zone 
you're in.


So seconds are usually ideal (along with "internet date") for network 
applications such as the one you're working on.


But for the conversion to take your local system into account, you'll 
need to do the conversion locally.


If you're doing the conversion on the server, the date/time will 
reflect the time zone settings in the server OS.




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Re: Problem with converting time

2017-03-16 Thread Richard Gaskin via use-livecode

Michael Doub wrote:

> I am getting different answers based on environment when trying to
> convert EPOC seconds to dateitems or internet date.   On my mac I get
> the expected result but on a HostM server I get something totally
> different.

How different?

> Does any one have a conversion function that does not use the
> livecode's convert function that they would be willing to share?

The seconds are usually a very good choice for their compactness and 
ease of calculation, and more so because the value we get is in GMT 
based on the offset from host OS.


What this should mean is that you can convert values obtained from "the 
seconds" and get a good date/time regardless of which time zone you're in.


So seconds are usually ideal (along with "internet date") for network 
applications such as the one you're working on.


But for the conversion to take your local system into account, you'll 
need to do the conversion locally.


If you're doing the conversion on the server, the date/time will reflect 
the time zone settings in the server OS.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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