Re: Tab Buttons Mac vs. Win

[Stephen Barncard via use-livecode]

I am  off topic and off center.

On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 09:28 Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Stephen Barncard wrote:
>
>  > If in 1975 I hadn't gotten pissed off at the Grateful Dead and
>  > taken off to LA...
>
> Probably too off-topic for this list, but that sounds like a story worth
> hearing.  Perhaps over a beer after the madness ends and travel resumes...
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>   
>   ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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-- 
--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org
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Re: Tab Buttons Mac vs. Win

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Stephen Barncard wrote:

> If in 1975 I hadn't gotten pissed off at the Grateful Dead and
> taken off to LA...

Probably too off-topic for this list, but that sounds like a story worth 
hearing.  Perhaps over a beer after the madness ends and travel resumes...


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Tab Buttons Mac vs. Win

[Stephen Barncard via use-livecode]

I had become aware of and long appreciated Tog, even in 1983 when I had a
job at Datamost, and the first mac on my desktop. The single floppy and the
horrible printer got in the way and I didn't again consider the machine for
my hardware control development work over the Apple ][ until 1987 when I
got A Studios connected to the developer program (thanks to fellow
Datamost employee Craig Keithley).  It was in that first box that the Mac
SE (with a 20mb hard drive) that I went looking for the included "card".
What card? Where is it?
Oh, it's *Hypercard*!

 It changed my life of course and that of A Studios too.
After that I could fully understand and utilize Tog's vision and its Xerox
roots embedded in this wonderful tool as I built a dedicated control system
for A tape copy .

I think Tognazzini was written about in that first Mac User issue that
featured members of the original design team.  Keithley was a friend of
Steve Jobs and Woz in the Apple ][ garage days, could have been employee #4
but he was very young and he and his parents moved to LA.  He was
"slightly" unhappy about that. He eventually got a job at 1 Infinite Loop.
I'm sure Mike Markkula (Johnny Appleseed) knew of him too.

If in 1975 I hadn't gotten pissed off at the Grateful Dead and taken off to
LA, I very likely would have ended up at that Homebrew Computer Club
because I was seeking information about these microprocessor thingies.
In life, there are many forks in the road.
Brushes with greatness. I am truly fortunate.

sqb
--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org


On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 10:50 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Bob Sneidar wrote:
>
>  > I would LOVE to find out how Livecode for Mac draws those beautiful
>  > tab buttons so I can duplicate it on Windows, because DAYAM are the
>  > Windows ones ugly!
>
> Around the turn of the century I wrote to Bruce Tognazzini, back when he
> was still taking email questions.
>
> I asked him about the proper placement of confirmation and dismissal
> buttons (often "OK" and "Cancel") in cross-platform apps.  I was
> familiar with his early research on how the Mac layout (confirmation on
> the right) matched eye tracking studies on scanning order, and thus was
> a better solution.  On Windows reading order is used (confirmation on
> the left), which might seem better but not in UIs; dialog boxes just
> aren't read as much as skimmed, so rather than taking in each line
> individually as we do when we read, most folks more or less just scan
> from upper-left to lower-right, where on Mac the action button awaits.
>
> So I asked Tog:
>
> "Given that the Mac way is borne out by research, wouldn't it be better
> to use to Mac way in my Windows apps as well?"
>
> He was kind enough in his reply, acknowledging that at least my heart
> was in the right place with wanting to "do the right thing" by the user.
> But he was also blunt: I had missed something even more important than
> research.  I had overlooked the significance of user habits.
>
> When a user spends years with an OS design, they build up a cognitive
> and muscle memory, so strong that even when research shows an advantage
> to a different means, the consistency winds up outweighing it.
>
> In short, he suggested I do Windows things on Windows, and leave Mac
> things on Mac.
>
> Who am I to argue with Tog?
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>   
>   ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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> subscription preferences:
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Re: Tab Buttons Mac vs. Win

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Bob Sneidar wrote:

> I would LOVE to find out how Livecode for Mac draws those beautiful
> tab buttons so I can duplicate it on Windows, because DAYAM are the
> Windows ones ugly!

Around the turn of the century I wrote to Bruce Tognazzini, back when he 
was still taking email questions.


I asked him about the proper placement of confirmation and dismissal 
buttons (often "OK" and "Cancel") in cross-platform apps.  I was 
familiar with his early research on how the Mac layout (confirmation on 
the right) matched eye tracking studies on scanning order, and thus was 
a better solution.  On Windows reading order is used (confirmation on 
the left), which might seem better but not in UIs; dialog boxes just 
aren't read as much as skimmed, so rather than taking in each line 
individually as we do when we read, most folks more or less just scan 
from upper-left to lower-right, where on Mac the action button awaits.


So I asked Tog:

"Given that the Mac way is borne out by research, wouldn't it be better 
to use to Mac way in my Windows apps as well?"


He was kind enough in his reply, acknowledging that at least my heart 
was in the right place with wanting to "do the right thing" by the user. 
But he was also blunt: I had missed something even more important than 
research.  I had overlooked the significance of user habits.


When a user spends years with an OS design, they build up a cognitive 
and muscle memory, so strong that even when research shows an advantage 
to a different means, the consistency winds up outweighing it.


In short, he suggested I do Windows things on Windows, and leave Mac 
things on Mac.


Who am I to argue with Tog?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Tab Buttons Mac vs. Win

[Klaus major-k via use-livecode]

Hi Bob,

> Am 14.07.2020 um 18:58 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> Hi all. 
> 
> I would LOVE to find out how Livecode for Mac draws those beautiful tab 
> buttons so I can duplicate it on Windows, because DAYAM are the Windows ones 
> ugly! 

these controls (and more like checkboxes etc.) are supplied by the underlying 
OS!
So you will need to fake it with screenshots of the Mac tabbed button.

> Bob S

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
kl...@major-k.de


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