Re: Yertle the Turtle

[Jim Hurley via use-livecode]

I had been promoting Turtle Graphics in RR/LC for many years.

Here are 4 implementation of Turtle Graphics in LC: 
http://jamesphurley.com/Revolution.html 


Jim


> 
> Message: 19
> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 22:20:10 +0200
> From: Richmond Mathewson 
> To: "u >> How to use LiveCode" 
> Subject: Yertle the Turtle
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> Having imported an SVG image of a tortoise into a stack . . .
> 
> Being a fan of Seymour Papert . . .
> 
> I thought I'd try and implement turtle graphics in Livecode.
> 
> But came up against something awkward . . .
> 
> [As a caveat, I should like to point out I don't know how the following 
> is implemented
> in any other languages either]
> 
> 1. Rotating my turtle widget is easy.
> 
> 2. But telling the turtle to move forwards or backwards is not easy at all:
> 
> In LOGO one can tell the turtle to turn left by, say, 30 degrees, and 
> then move forward 20 units.
> 
> But in LiveCode, as far as I know, one can either move an object by 
> setting 2 coordinates,
> or by 'set the loc'.
> 
> 2.1. Now if I want my turtle, rotated at 30 degrees to move forward by 
> 20 units I will have to mess
> around with SINE and COSINE and probably not end up with the turtle 
> moving exactly 20 units at 30
> degrees from the vertical.
> 
> 2.2. I wonder how my turtle will be seen to draw a pen line from the two 
> ends of the "line".
> 
> Richmond.
> 

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Re: Yertle the Turtle

[Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode]

Hi All,

Remember that Jim Hurley wrote a book:
http://jamesphurley.com/RunRev/TurtlePhysicsText.doc

and many stacks about Turtle Graphics:
http://jamesphurley.com/Revolution.html

Al
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RE: Yertle the Turtle

[Ralph DiMola via use-livecode]

>Mike Wrote:
>Ah. Its sub pixel positioning. (a rose by any other name wouldn't be as
alliterative as a ppp name)

I banged my head against a wall for days trying to get smooth shading of 3d
objects correct. (assembler on a 1980's ECL super computer) until the light
went on and I used center pixel coordinates for the color calculations. The
integer x/y pixel positions didn't cut it. Had to go center pixel floating
point.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net



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Re: Yertle the Turtle

[Mike Bonner via use-livecode]

nvm. ignore me. :) Something else entirely.  (but the whole idea of
tracking the coords separately still applies)
(goes to bed)

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 2:57 PM, Mike Bonner  wrote:

> Ah. Its sub pixel positioning. (a rose by any other name wouldn't be as
> alliterative as a ppp name)
>
> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Mike Bonner  wrote:
>
>> Yeah, I think this is due to that change a while back (the partial pixel
>> positioning stuff) it doesn't throw an error in your face if you set to a
>> decimal coord anymore.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Apparently fractional coordinates work fine, rounded reasonably well -
>>> this works:
>>>
>>>set the left of btn 1 to 100.004
>>>
>>> --
>>>  Richard Gaskin
>>>  Fourth World Systems
>>>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>>>  
>>>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>>>
>>> ___
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>>
>>
>
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Re: Yertle the Turtle

[Mike Bonner via use-livecode]

Ah. Its sub pixel positioning. (a rose by any other name wouldn't be as
alliterative as a ppp name)

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Mike Bonner  wrote:

> Yeah, I think this is due to that change a while back (the partial pixel
> positioning stuff) it doesn't throw an error in your face if you set to a
> decimal coord anymore.
>
>
>
>>
>> Apparently fractional coordinates work fine, rounded reasonably well -
>> this works:
>>
>>set the left of btn 1 to 100.004
>>
>> --
>>  Richard Gaskin
>>  Fourth World Systems
>>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>>  
>>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>>
>> ___
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>
>
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Re: Yertle the Turtle

[Mike Bonner via use-livecode]

Yeah, I think this is due to that change a while back (the partial pixel
positioning stuff) it doesn't throw an error in your face if you set to a
decimal coord anymore.



>
> Apparently fractional coordinates work fine, rounded reasonably well -
> this works:
>
>set the left of btn 1 to 100.004
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> ___
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Re: Yertle the Turtle

[hh via use-livecode]

> Colin H. wrote:
> I’m sure any system would not attempt to parse an infinite number of decimal
> places. The turtle would probably be placed at 1.41421356237 pixels. If you
> want to try more accurately than that, here’s the first million decimal 
> places: 
> https://apod.nasa.gov/htmltest/gifcity/sqrt2.1mil

To make the confusion complete (or remove it):
If the turtle of Pythagoras, sitting at (0,0) had to move sqrt(2) units, it
would do that nevertheless *exactly*, crawling for example from (0,0) to (1,1).
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Re: Yertle the Turtle

[Colin Holgate via use-livecode]

I’m sure any system would not attempt to parse an infinite number of decimal 
places. The turtle would probably be placed at 1.41421356237 pixels. If you 
want to try more accurately than that, here’s the first million decimal places:

https://apod.nasa.gov/htmltest/gifcity/sqrt2.1mil


> On Jan 31, 2017, at 11:22 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> If sqrt(2) is a bonkers number does anyone know how LOGO manages this?
> 
> Richmond.
> 
> On 1/31/17 5:36 pm, hh via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Richmond wrote:
>>> The problem is that (as far as I am aware) LiveCode cannot
>>> move objects for fractions of pixels.
>> Even if it could, this would be not enough, because sqrt(2)
>> is an irrational number ;-)
>> 
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Re: Yertle the Turtle

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

If sqrt(2) is a bonkers number does anyone know how LOGO manages this?

Richmond.

On 1/31/17 5:36 pm, hh via use-livecode wrote:

Richmond wrote:
The problem is that (as far as I am aware) LiveCode cannot
move objects for fractions of pixels.

Even if it could, this would be not enough, because sqrt(2)
is an irrational number ;-)

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Re: Yertle the Turtle

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Quentin Long wrote:

> Suggestion for RM to try: Don't fuss about non-integer points—do all
> the necessary calculations "under the hood", and just let point-
> coördinates be assigned the resulting non-integer numbers as needed.
> With any luck, LC will make this "just work" on your screen.

Apparently fractional coordinates work fine, rounded reasonably well - 
this works:


   set the left of btn 1 to 100.004

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Yertle the Turtle

[Quentin Long via use-livecode]

Suggestion for RM to try: Don't fuss about non-integer points—do all the 
necessary calculations "under the hood", and just let point-coördinates be 
assigned the resulting non-integer numbers as needed. With any luck, LC will 
make this "just work" on your screen.

   
"Bewitched" + "Charlie's Angels" - Charlie = "At Arm's Length"

Read the webcomic at [ http://www.atarmslength.net ]!

If you like "At Arm's Length", support it at [ 
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Re: Yertle the Turtle

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Richmond Mathewson wrote:

> Being a fan of Seymour Papert . . .
>
> I thought I'd try and implement turtle graphics in Livecode.

Have you seen Jim Hurley's?:

http://jamesphurley.com/Revolution.html

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Yertle the Turtle

[Colin Holgate via use-livecode]

Whether you’re able to set subpixel or not, keep the intended location in 
variables, and add your move to the variables, then set the location of the 
turtle to the updated variables. 

> On Jan 31, 2017, at 2:41 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the equations (I had in fact already worked those out), the 
> problem was
> not that, the problem is that (as far as I am aware) LiveCode cannot move 
> objects
> for fractions of pixels, so a move of , say, 30 forward at 30 degrees might 
> (and I haven't done
> the Maths yet) either be 29, 30 or 32 units.
> 
> Whether, in the great scheme of things this is that important is not clear.
> 
> Richmond.
> 
> On 1/31/17 8:22 am, Colin Holgate via use-livecode wrote:
>> It is, as you said, going to need sin and cos. The X movement would be 30 * 
>> cos(37/180 * Pi), and the Y movement would be 30 * sin(37/180 * Pi), in your 
>> example case.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 30, 2017, at 11:14 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The problem is not with drawing the line.
>>> 
>>> The problem is how, when the turtle's "nose" is pointing at, say, 37 
>>> degrees from the vertical
>>> one can get it to move FORWARD for 30 units.
>>> 
>>> Richmond.
>>> 
>>> On 1/30/17 11:46 pm, Tore Nilsen via use-livecode wrote:
> 30. jan. 2017 kl. 21.20 skrev Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> 2.2. I wonder how my turtle will be seen to draw a pen line from the two 
> ends of the "line".
 If you would like the “turtle” to move to the points of the line then, 
 lock screen, draw the line, hide the line and unlock the screen before you 
 start moving the “turtle”. Then no-one will ever see the line and you can 
 delete last graphic once the turtle has stopped moving.
 
 Regards
 Tore Nilsen
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Re: Yertle the Turtle

[hh via use-livecode]

> Richmond wrote:
> The problem is that (as far as I am aware) LiveCode cannot
> move objects for fractions of pixels.

Even if it could, this would be not enough, because sqrt(2)
is an irrational number ;-)

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Re: Yertle the Turtle

[Mike Bonner via use-livecode]

If I recall correctly, you can SET a location now that is a fraction of a
pixel.. Keep track of the decimals as your current location and use those
numbers (within reason) as your start point, and continue onward.  (think
it was called partial pixel positioning?)  While the actual location will
be a full pixel, keeping track of the fractionals for your equations will
keep things sympatico.

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 2:41 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the equations (I had in fact already worked those out), the
> problem was
> not that, the problem is that (as far as I am aware) LiveCode cannot move
> objects
> for fractions of pixels, so a move of , say, 30 forward at 30 degrees
> might (and I haven't done
> the Maths yet) either be 29, 30 or 32 units.
>
> Whether, in the great scheme of things this is that important is not clear.
>
> Richmond.
>
>
> On 1/31/17 8:22 am, Colin Holgate via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> It is, as you said, going to need sin and cos. The X movement would be 30
>> * cos(37/180 * Pi), and the Y movement would be 30 * sin(37/180 * Pi), in
>> your example case.
>>
>>
>> On Jan 30, 2017, at 11:14 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The problem is not with drawing the line.
>>>
>>> The problem is how, when the turtle's "nose" is pointing at, say, 37
>>> degrees from the vertical
>>> one can get it to move FORWARD for 30 units.
>>>
>>> Richmond.
>>>
>>> On 1/30/17 11:46 pm, Tore Nilsen via use-livecode wrote:
>>>
 30. jan. 2017 kl. 21.20 skrev Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>:
>
> 2.2. I wonder how my turtle will be seen to draw a pen line from the
> two ends of the "line".
>
 If you would like the “turtle” to move to the points of the line then,
 lock screen, draw the line, hide the line and unlock the screen before you
 start moving the “turtle”. Then no-one will ever see the line and you can
 delete last graphic once the turtle has stopped moving.

 Regards
 Tore Nilsen
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Re: Yertle the Turtle

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Thanks for the equations (I had in fact already worked those out), the 
problem was
not that, the problem is that (as far as I am aware) LiveCode cannot 
move objects
for fractions of pixels, so a move of , say, 30 forward at 30 degrees 
might (and I haven't done

the Maths yet) either be 29, 30 or 32 units.

Whether, in the great scheme of things this is that important is not clear.

Richmond.

On 1/31/17 8:22 am, Colin Holgate via use-livecode wrote:

It is, as you said, going to need sin and cos. The X movement would be 30 * 
cos(37/180 * Pi), and the Y movement would be 30 * sin(37/180 * Pi), in your 
example case.



On Jan 30, 2017, at 11:14 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
 wrote:

The problem is not with drawing the line.

The problem is how, when the turtle's "nose" is pointing at, say, 37 degrees 
from the vertical
one can get it to move FORWARD for 30 units.

Richmond.

On 1/30/17 11:46 pm, Tore Nilsen via use-livecode wrote:

30. jan. 2017 kl. 21.20 skrev Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
:

2.2. I wonder how my turtle will be seen to draw a pen line from the two ends of the 
"line".

If you would like the “turtle” to move to the points of the line then, lock 
screen, draw the line, hide the line and unlock the screen before you start 
moving the “turtle”. Then no-one will ever see the line and you can delete last 
graphic once the turtle has stopped moving.

Regards
Tore Nilsen
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Re: Yertle the Turtle

[Colin Holgate via use-livecode]

It is, as you said, going to need sin and cos. The X movement would be 30 * 
cos(37/180 * Pi), and the Y movement would be 30 * sin(37/180 * Pi), in your 
example case.


> On Jan 30, 2017, at 11:14 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> The problem is not with drawing the line.
> 
> The problem is how, when the turtle's "nose" is pointing at, say, 37 degrees 
> from the vertical
> one can get it to move FORWARD for 30 units.
> 
> Richmond.
> 
> On 1/30/17 11:46 pm, Tore Nilsen via use-livecode wrote:
>>> 30. jan. 2017 kl. 21.20 skrev Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
>>> :
>>> 
>>> 2.2. I wonder how my turtle will be seen to draw a pen line from the two 
>>> ends of the "line".
>> If you would like the “turtle” to move to the points of the line then, lock 
>> screen, draw the line, hide the line and unlock the screen before you start 
>> moving the “turtle”. Then no-one will ever see the line and you can delete 
>> last graphic once the turtle has stopped moving.
>> 
>> Regards
>> Tore Nilsen
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Re: Yertle the Turtle

[Mike Bonner via use-livecode]

K heres the required parts..

*## takes length and the angle in radians and returns vector as x,y offsets*
function aLenToVector pLen pAngle
return pLen * sin(pAngle),pLen * cos(pAngle)
end aLenToVector

*## takes degrees and changes to radians*
function dToRadians pDegrees
 return pDegrees / 180 * pi
end dToRadians

With those 2 things, you should be able to move your turtle.


On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 11:16 PM, Mike Bonner  wrote:

> Yeah. Thats what my (as yet unrediscovered) library can help with.
>
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 11:14 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> The problem is not with drawing the line.
>>
>> The problem is how, when the turtle's "nose" is pointing at, say, 37
>> degrees from the vertical
>> one can get it to move FORWARD for 30 units.
>>
>> Richmond.
>>
>>
>> On 1/30/17 11:46 pm, Tore Nilsen via use-livecode wrote:
>>
>>> 30. jan. 2017 kl. 21.20 skrev Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
 use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>:

 2.2. I wonder how my turtle will be seen to draw a pen line from the
 two ends of the "line".

>>> If you would like the “turtle” to move to the points of the line then,
>>> lock screen, draw the line, hide the line and unlock the screen before you
>>> start moving the “turtle”. Then no-one will ever see the line and you can
>>> delete last graphic once the turtle has stopped moving.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Tore Nilsen
>>> ___
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>>
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Re: Yertle the Turtle

[Mike Bonner via use-livecode]

Yeah. Thats what my (as yet unrediscovered) library can help with.

On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 11:14 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> The problem is not with drawing the line.
>
> The problem is how, when the turtle's "nose" is pointing at, say, 37
> degrees from the vertical
> one can get it to move FORWARD for 30 units.
>
> Richmond.
>
>
> On 1/30/17 11:46 pm, Tore Nilsen via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> 30. jan. 2017 kl. 21.20 skrev Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>:
>>>
>>> 2.2. I wonder how my turtle will be seen to draw a pen line from the two
>>> ends of the "line".
>>>
>> If you would like the “turtle” to move to the points of the line then,
>> lock screen, draw the line, hide the line and unlock the screen before you
>> start moving the “turtle”. Then no-one will ever see the line and you can
>> delete last graphic once the turtle has stopped moving.
>>
>> Regards
>> Tore Nilsen
>> ___
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Re: Yertle the Turtle

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

The problem is not with drawing the line.

The problem is how, when the turtle's "nose" is pointing at, say, 37 
degrees from the vertical

one can get it to move FORWARD for 30 units.

Richmond.

On 1/30/17 11:46 pm, Tore Nilsen via use-livecode wrote:

30. jan. 2017 kl. 21.20 skrev Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
:

2.2. I wonder how my turtle will be seen to draw a pen line from the two ends of the 
"line".

If you would like the “turtle” to move to the points of the line then, lock 
screen, draw the line, hide the line and unlock the screen before you start 
moving the “turtle”. Then no-one will ever see the line and you can delete last 
graphic once the turtle has stopped moving.

Regards
Tore Nilsen
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Re: Yertle the Turtle

[Mike Bonner via use-livecode]

Somewhere around here I have a library that should help with your turtle
moving.  Will see if I can dig it up.

On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 2:46 PM, Tore Nilsen via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> > 30. jan. 2017 kl. 21.20 skrev Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>:
> >
> > 2.2. I wonder how my turtle will be seen to draw a pen line from the two
> ends of the "line".
>
> If you would like the “turtle” to move to the points of the line then,
> lock screen, draw the line, hide the line and unlock the screen before you
> start moving the “turtle”. Then no-one will ever see the line and you can
> delete last graphic once the turtle has stopped moving.
>
> Regards
> Tore Nilsen
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
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Re: Yertle the Turtle

[Tore Nilsen via use-livecode]

> 30. jan. 2017 kl. 21.20 skrev Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> 2.2. I wonder how my turtle will be seen to draw a pen line from the two ends 
> of the "line".

If you would like the “turtle” to move to the points of the line then, lock 
screen, draw the line, hide the line and unlock the screen before you start 
moving the “turtle”. Then no-one will ever see the line and you can delete last 
graphic once the turtle has stopped moving.

Regards
Tore Nilsen
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