Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Graham Samuel via use-livecode]

Sorry, I got that from an old thread and forgot to change it. By the way I 
didn’t say in my story that Knuth used Algol and Cobol for his algorithm, and I 
translated the Algol one (looks a bit like LiveCode, even today…)

> On 3 Feb 2017, at 17:20, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
> <use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Why is this post called Supercard 4.8 Public Beta??
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Feb 3, 2017, at 08:15 , Graham Samuel via use-livecode 
>> <use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Only slightly OT, quite near my first encounter with computers at all, and 
>> at the very beginning of my encounter with High Level Languages (do people 
>> still use that expression?), I translated Knuth’s algorithm for calculating 
>> the date of Easter into LISP 1. It would be a lot easier to do in LiveCode. 
>> As this is probably of limited interest, I have not spent the $2.99 needed 
>> to retrieve the original article, but maybe someone might want to:
>> 
>> https://www.deepdyve.com/lp/acm/the-calculation-of-easter-bXkDNEaKDY?key=acm 
>> <https://www.deepdyve.com/lp/acm/the-calculation-of-easter-bXkDNEaKDY?key=acm>
>> 
>> I did not know either of the languages involved when I started the exercise.
>> 
>> Anyway that experience makes me endorse one of Richmond’s way of introducing 
>> people to LiveCode, quoted below.
>> 
>> Graham
>> 
>> PS As an exercise for the reader (do people still use **that** expression?) 
>> you can work out from this story approximately how old I am.
>> 
>> 
>>> On 16 Oct 2016, at 13:30, Richmond <richmondmathew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Another thing that is quite instructive is to download some daft game from 
>>> the internet written in
>>> who-knows-what and get the kids, first, to consider its functionality, and 
>>> secondly, how they might
>>> possibly achieve that functionality in Livecode.
>> 
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Actually, I learned recently that C and it's variants is NOT a high level 
language! It's considered a mid-level language.

Bob S


On Feb 3, 2017, at 08:20 , Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
> wrote:

Only slightly OT, quite near my first encounter with computers at all, and at 
the very beginning of my encounter with High Level Languages (do people still 
use that expression?)

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Why is this post called Supercard 4.8 Public Beta??

Bob S


> On Feb 3, 2017, at 08:15 , Graham Samuel via use-livecode 
> <use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Only slightly OT, quite near my first encounter with computers at all, and at 
> the very beginning of my encounter with High Level Languages (do people still 
> use that expression?), I translated Knuth’s algorithm for calculating the 
> date of Easter into LISP 1. It would be a lot easier to do in LiveCode. As 
> this is probably of limited interest, I have not spent the $2.99 needed to 
> retrieve the original article, but maybe someone might want to:
> 
> https://www.deepdyve.com/lp/acm/the-calculation-of-easter-bXkDNEaKDY?key=acm 
> <https://www.deepdyve.com/lp/acm/the-calculation-of-easter-bXkDNEaKDY?key=acm>
> 
> I did not know either of the languages involved when I started the exercise.
> 
> Anyway that experience makes me endorse one of Richmond’s way of introducing 
> people to LiveCode, quoted below.
> 
> Graham
> 
> PS As an exercise for the reader (do people still use **that** expression?) 
> you can work out from this story approximately how old I am.
> 
> 
>> On 16 Oct 2016, at 13:30, Richmond <richmondmathew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Another thing that is quite instructive is to download some daft game from 
>> the internet written in
>> who-knows-what and get the kids, first, to consider its functionality, and 
>> secondly, how they might
>> possibly achieve that functionality in Livecode.
> 
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Graham Samuel via use-livecode]

Only slightly OT, quite near my first encounter with computers at all, and at 
the very beginning of my encounter with High Level Languages (do people still 
use that expression?), I translated Knuth’s algorithm for calculating the date 
of Easter into LISP 1. It would be a lot easier to do in LiveCode. As this is 
probably of limited interest, I have not spent the $2.99 needed to retrieve the 
original article, but maybe someone might want to:

https://www.deepdyve.com/lp/acm/the-calculation-of-easter-bXkDNEaKDY?key=acm 


I did not know either of the languages involved when I started the exercise.

Anyway that experience makes me endorse one of Richmond’s way of introducing 
people to LiveCode, quoted below.

Graham

PS As an exercise for the reader (do people still use **that** expression?) you 
can work out from this story approximately how old I am.


> On 16 Oct 2016, at 13:30, Richmond  wrote:
> 
> Another thing that is quite instructive is to download some daft game from 
> the internet written in
> who-knows-what and get the kids, first, to consider its functionality, and 
> secondly, how they might
> possibly achieve that functionality in Livecode.

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Dr. Hawkins]

On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 9:20 PM, Scott Morrow 
wrote:

> My brother lives on the other side of the country. I live across town. +1
> for Kay C Lan’s rant


But your brother is +1ing my solution :)


-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Bob Sneidar]

You misunderstood me. By point and click I was referring to the way you MUST 
program in Filemaker. There is no scripting language for Filemaker, and the 
result is that something that would take you a half a minute to do with a few 
lines of code take 5 minutes in Filemaker. I was not referring to the GUI 
building feature present in both.

Bob S


On Oct 15, 2016, at 05:01 , Richmond 
> wrote:



On 15.10.2016 07:14, Bob Sneidar wrote:
Filemaker has a point and click programming interface. It just gets in the way. 
I spent more time perusing the dialog and sub-dialog boxes to try and figure 
out how to add 1 to a variable that contains 1, that I found myself saying, 
"Can't I just type a formula??"

I gave up on Filemaker.

Bob S


On Oct 5, 2016, at 10:22 , Richard Gaskin 
>
 wrote:

Like Bill Appleton told me shortly after he left his point-and-click authoring 
tool CourseBuilder behind to make SuperCard, there's a limit on the complexity 
of systems that can be expressed clearly in any point-and-click UI, and 
ultimately code becomes the more readable option for any but the most trivial 
of programs.

After all, how many point-and-click tools used their point-and-click tool to 
build their IDE? :)

Today most of the point-and-click are gone, even the industry-leading 
Authorware, while scripting language have taken over much of the world to 
dominate applications development.

Well, where does that put Livecode?

Or, rather, are you, Richard Gaskin, suggesting that Livecode should be 
shedding its point-and-click
heritage in favour of becoming a scripting-only language?

While I am sure that is possible, at that point all the hard work that Kevin 
Miller did to extend
the WYSIWYG aspect of MetaCard will go for nothing, and a very large part of 
what makes Livecode so
strong will be lost.
*
**Livecode* is not a point-and-click authoring tool, and nor is it something 
like C++; but it can be seen
as a *hybrid* of these two extremes, where end-users can choose where along 
that*point-and-click to**
**scripting language continuum* they want to work.

If Livecode's point-and-click interface "just gets in the way" there is no 
earthly reason why one cannot do the whole thing by scripting alone [frankly, 
making buttons, fields and other "furniture" by scripting
seems, after years of Livecode 'as it is', unnecessarily tedious], but that 
doesn't mean it has to
whither-and-die like some sort of Marxist waning away of the state, especially 
when it is a great strength of Livecode.

Richmond.


--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World Systems
Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Roger Eller]

On Oct 16, 2016 1:06 AM, "Kay C Lan"  wrote:
>
> On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 2:39 AM, Richmond 
wrote:
>
> > I would argue that you can do all of that within Livecode, thereby
avoiding
> > a hiatus as you get kids to transfer.
> >
> And surely that's exactly the same argument as those who questions the
> relevance of playing with a toy language like LiveCode when you could
> just start with a real language like C, C++ etc.

I started with HyperCard, migrated to MetaCard, then Revolution, which
became LiveCode.  I have dabbled in AppleScript, DOS batch scripts, VMS
scripts, but always return to the language I started with, in its modern
form (LiveCode).

I don't WANT to ever have to learn C or C++!  I don't want a GUI only
language because it would be as limited as painting in MS-Word.  Nor would
I want to start with something so easy that I have a false sense of what
programming is, then have to learn something completely different and more
difficult.  Start with basic LC, and gradually build on those skills in ONE
great language - LiveCode.  /2 cents

~Roger

~Roger
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Richmond]

I live right at the other extreme of Europe from my parents: they live 
in England, I live
in Bulgaria: but with the use of Skype, e-mail and Facebook we all (i.e. 
the 23-odd ancient

pensioners I "support" with Linux) do just fine.

Richmond.

On 17.10.2016 01:20, Dr. Hawkins wrote:

On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Kay C Lan  wrote:


We (my wife and I) live 9hr flight time away from our parents.


The trick here is to have your little brother living a couple of miles from
your parents, so that *he* gets the tech calls instead of you.

:)

Works for me, although some of the oddities still filter down . . .





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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Richmond]

Here's something for the 80 year olds:

My Mum and Dad, who are 86 and 84 respectively, run Xubuntu on their 12 
year old
Toshiba laptop: several of their friends (also in their 80s) run Linux 
distros.


Frankly none of them know nothing more that "bung in the install disk" . . .

They have all converted over the last 10-12 years from Windows as the 
fag of trotting
round to the "Fixit" shop, and forking out moolah for that, every month 
has just got

too much.

They don't seem to have any problems at all: between them they employ 
XFCE, Cinnamon and

MATE as desktops.

I am their "support calls" bloke: and in the last 10 years I have had 7 
support calls, which from
23 computers running Linux with 80 year old end-users seems pretty 
damn-good.


The first thing to tell Octagenarians is: "Now's the time to sit up and 
take notice instead

of going senile." works a charm!

Richmond.

On 17.10.2016 00:58, Kay C Lan wrote:

On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 8:45 PM, Roger Eller
 wrote:

In regards to "recording" actions to script, my first experience was in Mac
OS 6.  The finder had a menu item called "macro" that could record, save,
and playback every click, drag, move, cut, copy, paste, and typed text that
was performed in the GUI.  This was in 1991, btw.  But it wasn't revealed
to the end user as a script, and could only be changed by re-recording the
actions.  Still very powerful for its time!


Yes, and it also included the ability to hi-light something by using
the screen version of a hi-lighter to underline something important or
circle something important. The Help system used it and most software
that came out at the time also used it. If you did a Help search for
'turn off extensions' the Help system would come up with the text
explanation of how to do it, but at the bottom would be a hyperlink
'show me'. Clicking on it would result in a hi-lighter circle being
drawn around the Apple menu item, the mouse would then move up there
and click on it, the Control Panels menu option would then be
underlined to hi-light it and the mouse would move down to select
it... etc, etc. As you say, very powerful and the precursor to
AppleScript.

And for Richmond,

here's a not so entertaining or fun exercise to try: give a Linux box
and cheap android phone to a bunch of Octogenarians and see how long
they last before the 'support calls' start piling up. In my opinion
Linux is only suitable for those who are geeks; and any comments about
how 'easy and great Linux is' by anyone who's done any sort of
Computer studies at any sort of educational institution is completely
irrelevant - because they have little clue on how daunting and foreign
this stuff is to the elderly.

We (my wife and I) live 9hr flight time away from our parents. My in
laws use to have MS desktops and android mobile devices because my
brothers-in-law all follow the same 'too expensive' logic. They were
constantly over at their parents place fix things and showing them how
to do things. Mobile devices were a particular bane because my in-laws
travel a lot and they just never seemed to work when they needed too.
The went through multiple different 'set-ups' including several in the
popular EeePCs range. Every time we visit it's the same, can you have
look at this, can you fix that, how do you do this. We eventually got
sick and tired of it so we bought them some iPhones and iPads. No more
support calls - for the mobiles, they still have their Windows
desktops. It's chalk and cheese, we are now inundated with emails,
blogs, facebook posts, photos and movies of all the minutiae of their
travels, including the most irritating of all, food photos. The iPhone
4 and iPad 2 are still working for them nicely and have outlasted
anything they've owned before - not that the previous purchases broke,
they just never really functioned as required.

My parents are older, my Dad just cracked 90 and it's the same story
with my brothers following the same 'too expensive' philosophy. Both
my younger brothers are in the computer tech industry and are far more
computer savvy than my brothers-in-law, and they field all the support
calls for my parent's MS desktops and Android mobile devices.
Interestingly even my brother's acknowledge that Linux is 'too
difficult' to support for the parents. And yet EVERY time I come home
I have to deal with a support call that my brothers have already
addressed but the solution still isn't quite right.

As I type this I'm sitting in my mother's spare room, and only
yesterday was sorting out a problem of the simple need to install an
app on my mum's Aspera phone. When she tries to install apps it comes
up with a message that there isn't enough room. Seems simple enough, a
little house keeping to make space, except for the fact that my mother
has all of ONE (1) additional app installed on her phone over and
above the basic install. Further investigation reveals that this phone
comes with 128MB of internal storage. Yes 

Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Antti Ilola]

+1 for Kay C

2016-10-17 7:20 GMT+03:00 Scott Morrow :

> My brother lives on the other side of the country. I live across town. +1
> for Kay C Lan’s rant
> — Scott Morrow
> > On Oct 16, 2016, at 3:20 PM, Dr. Hawkins  wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Kay C Lan 
> wrote:
> >
> >> We (my wife and I) live 9hr flight time away from our parents.
> >
> >
> > The trick here is to have your little brother living a couple of miles
> from
> > your parents, so that *he* gets the tech calls instead of you.
> >
> > :)
> >
> > Works for me, although some of the oddities still filter down . . .
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
> > (702) 508-8462
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Scott Morrow]

My brother lives on the other side of the country. I live across town. +1 for 
Kay C Lan’s rant
— Scott Morrow
> On Oct 16, 2016, at 3:20 PM, Dr. Hawkins  wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Kay C Lan  wrote:
> 
>> We (my wife and I) live 9hr flight time away from our parents.
> 
> 
> The trick here is to have your little brother living a couple of miles from
> your parents, so that *he* gets the tech calls instead of you.
> 
> :)
> 
> Works for me, although some of the oddities still filter down . . .
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
> (702) 508-8462
> ___
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
> preferences:
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Dr. Hawkins]

On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Kay C Lan  wrote:

> We (my wife and I) live 9hr flight time away from our parents.


The trick here is to have your little brother living a couple of miles from
your parents, so that *he* gets the tech calls instead of you.

:)

Works for me, although some of the oddities still filter down . . .


-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Kay C Lan]

On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 8:45 PM, Roger Eller
 wrote:
> In regards to "recording" actions to script, my first experience was in Mac
> OS 6.  The finder had a menu item called "macro" that could record, save,
> and playback every click, drag, move, cut, copy, paste, and typed text that
> was performed in the GUI.  This was in 1991, btw.  But it wasn't revealed
> to the end user as a script, and could only be changed by re-recording the
> actions.  Still very powerful for its time!
>
Yes, and it also included the ability to hi-light something by using
the screen version of a hi-lighter to underline something important or
circle something important. The Help system used it and most software
that came out at the time also used it. If you did a Help search for
'turn off extensions' the Help system would come up with the text
explanation of how to do it, but at the bottom would be a hyperlink
'show me'. Clicking on it would result in a hi-lighter circle being
drawn around the Apple menu item, the mouse would then move up there
and click on it, the Control Panels menu option would then be
underlined to hi-light it and the mouse would move down to select
it... etc, etc. As you say, very powerful and the precursor to
AppleScript.

And for Richmond,

here's a not so entertaining or fun exercise to try: give a Linux box
and cheap android phone to a bunch of Octogenarians and see how long
they last before the 'support calls' start piling up. In my opinion
Linux is only suitable for those who are geeks; and any comments about
how 'easy and great Linux is' by anyone who's done any sort of
Computer studies at any sort of educational institution is completely
irrelevant - because they have little clue on how daunting and foreign
this stuff is to the elderly.

We (my wife and I) live 9hr flight time away from our parents. My in
laws use to have MS desktops and android mobile devices because my
brothers-in-law all follow the same 'too expensive' logic. They were
constantly over at their parents place fix things and showing them how
to do things. Mobile devices were a particular bane because my in-laws
travel a lot and they just never seemed to work when they needed too.
The went through multiple different 'set-ups' including several in the
popular EeePCs range. Every time we visit it's the same, can you have
look at this, can you fix that, how do you do this. We eventually got
sick and tired of it so we bought them some iPhones and iPads. No more
support calls - for the mobiles, they still have their Windows
desktops. It's chalk and cheese, we are now inundated with emails,
blogs, facebook posts, photos and movies of all the minutiae of their
travels, including the most irritating of all, food photos. The iPhone
4 and iPad 2 are still working for them nicely and have outlasted
anything they've owned before - not that the previous purchases broke,
they just never really functioned as required.

My parents are older, my Dad just cracked 90 and it's the same story
with my brothers following the same 'too expensive' philosophy. Both
my younger brothers are in the computer tech industry and are far more
computer savvy than my brothers-in-law, and they field all the support
calls for my parent's MS desktops and Android mobile devices.
Interestingly even my brother's acknowledge that Linux is 'too
difficult' to support for the parents. And yet EVERY time I come home
I have to deal with a support call that my brothers have already
addressed but the solution still isn't quite right.

As I type this I'm sitting in my mother's spare room, and only
yesterday was sorting out a problem of the simple need to install an
app on my mum's Aspera phone. When she tries to install apps it comes
up with a message that there isn't enough room. Seems simple enough, a
little house keeping to make space, except for the fact that my mother
has all of ONE (1) additional app installed on her phone over and
above the basic install. Further investigation reveals that this phone
comes with 128MB of internal storage. Yes you read that right MB not
GB, and there is only 24MB of spare space remaining on it. But, it
does have a mini SD card slot and in there is a 32GB card with 30GB of
spare space. So you'd think the system would be smart enough to
install new apps into the spare space. No, you have to do this
procedure:

http://www.howtogeek.com/114667/how-to-install-android-apps-to-the-sd-card-by-default-move-almost-any-app-to-the-sd-card/

which I can tell my youngest brother has already done; including the
bit about 'The Root Method'. Everything seems to be set up correctly
but as far as I can tell, the install process must cache part of the
app onto internal storage before it goes to the SD card because slim
apps can be installed no worries, but if it's an obese app of all of
20MB or larger, the 'not enough space' message comes up. If I and my
brothers can't figure out how to simply install an app my mum wants
the phone is not 

Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Roger Eller]

In regards to "recording" actions to script, my first experience was in Mac
OS 6.  The finder had a menu item called "macro" that could record, save,
and playback every click, drag, move, cut, copy, paste, and typed text that
was performed in the GUI.  This was in 1991, btw.  But it wasn't revealed
to the end user as a script, and could only be changed by re-recording the
actions.  Still very powerful for its time!

In today's world, on the PC side, we have Auto-IT, and Auto-IT Recorder.
Very good open-source language!

~Roger

On Oct 16, 2016 7:30 AM, "Richmond"  wrote:

> That's very interesting; but one of the problems is that recording
> Applescript is restricted to
> one platform; and the most expensive one at that.
>
> When I was working out how to start an EFL school in Bulgaria that was
> rather different from those already in place I thought "Aah, a row of Macs
> with Richmond's stacks." and the result was a row
> of second-hand IBM-compats running Linux with Richmond's stacks, because
> the price difference
> was huge and not justifiable.
>
> Just "for fun": here's an entertaining exercise based on the Lenovo,
> 64-bit, 2 GB RAM, 80 GB hard Disk
> box I bought yesterday for 80 leva (about $50 US), 2 years old, ex-Munich
> city council:
>
> MacMini (lowset specs, refurbished) on http://www.apple.com/shop/brow
> se/home/specialdeals/mac
>
> $419 . . . forget it!
>
> Probably un-updatable in 2-3 years.
>
> I have 7 G3 iMacs sitting in my garage in Scotland (ex-University of St.
> Andrews, fully functional
> on Mac OS 10.4 -  can run off standalones from LC 6.something for Mac
> PCC): tell me how to get them to Bulgaria without spending money that makes
> the whole exercise pointless. In 2 years time, once my 2 boys have finished
> their undergraduate degrees and I am finally financially "free" (hum, wonder
> what the chance of that it?) I'm going to buy a second-hand camper and
> spend 3 months trotting
> through Europe as my wife and I have not had more than a 3 day holiday for
> about 12 years: in
> Scotland I may well load up the G3s and bring them back here: while the
> fact that they are ancient in computing terms they are all "cherry red" and
> will do what I need in my school.
>
> But, I digress . . .
>
> I have, in my school, several 8 year old (meaning 10 year olds as they
> have been with me for 8 years)
> boxes that run Xubuntu 14.04 as smooth as a hot knife through butter.
>
> One of the ways I help kids "get ahead" with Livecode is throw them a
> stack demonstrating some
> functionality, and set them a task which involves building a new stack to
> do something that almost
> reduplicates that functionality; they can then open up my stack, pull it
> to pieces, and "steal-and-modify"
> (this is a programming technique first used in a highly effective way by
> William Shakespeare) my code
> to both achieve their ends and learn at the same time.
>
> Another thing that is quite instructive is to download some daft game from
> the internet written in
> who-knows-what and get the kids, first, to consider its functionality, and
> secondly, how they might
> possibly achieve that functionality in Livecode.
>
> Livecode is very nearly "a man for all seasons" in that it can be used on
> all sorts of levels and in all
> sorts of directions: whether as a largely visual progging environment, or
> a largely code-based
> progging environment. That is its great strength and should neither be
> overlokked or poo-poo-ed.
>
> Richmond.
>
> On 16.10.2016 08:06, Kay C Lan wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 2:39 AM, Richmond 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I would argue that you can do all of that within Livecode, thereby
>>> avoiding
>>> a hiatus as you get kids to transfer.
>>>
>>> And surely that's exactly the same argument as those who questions the
>> relevance of playing with a toy language like LiveCode when you could
>> just start with a real language like C, C++ etc.
>>
>> There is no question that you can teach a child to read by using the
>> King James Bible; millions of people learned to read that way because
>> for decades, if not centuries the family Bible was the only book a
>> family possessed. I wonder for how many the family Bible was the only
>> book they ever read? I wonder how many developed a love of reading and
>> for how many it was nothing but a chore?
>>
>> I dare say, at the time, some would say that Dr Seuss books were not
>> books at all but just a collection of nonsensical words with no point
>> or value. But for how many children did these toy words build an
>> understanding of real words and a love for reading? My wife is an avid
>> reader (and educator) who was extremely concerned when two of our
>> children struggled to learn to read - one with extreme lysdexia (I
>> seffur to). The dyslexic was 'cured' with comics and the other was
>> 'cured' by J.K. Rowling.
>>
>> The great thing about programming languages and IDE's is that 

Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Richmond]

That's very interesting; but one of the problems is that recording 
Applescript is restricted to

one platform; and the most expensive one at that.

When I was working out how to start an EFL school in Bulgaria that was 
rather different from those already in place I thought "Aah, a row of 
Macs with Richmond's stacks." and the result was a row
of second-hand IBM-compats running Linux with Richmond's stacks, because 
the price difference

was huge and not justifiable.

Just "for fun": here's an entertaining exercise based on the Lenovo, 
64-bit, 2 GB RAM, 80 GB hard Disk
box I bought yesterday for 80 leva (about $50 US), 2 years old, 
ex-Munich city council:


MacMini (lowset specs, refurbished) on 
http://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals/mac


$419 . . . forget it!

Probably un-updatable in 2-3 years.

I have 7 G3 iMacs sitting in my garage in Scotland (ex-University of St. 
Andrews, fully functional
on Mac OS 10.4 -  can run off standalones from LC 6.something for Mac 
PCC): tell me how to get them to Bulgaria without spending money that 
makes the whole exercise pointless. In 2 years time, once my 2 boys have 
finished their undergraduate degrees and I am finally financially "free" 
(hum, wonder
what the chance of that it?) I'm going to buy a second-hand camper and 
spend 3 months trotting
through Europe as my wife and I have not had more than a 3 day holiday 
for about 12 years: in
Scotland I may well load up the G3s and bring them back here: while the 
fact that they are ancient in computing terms they are all "cherry red" 
and will do what I need in my school.


But, I digress . . .

I have, in my school, several 8 year old (meaning 10 year olds as they 
have been with me for 8 years)

boxes that run Xubuntu 14.04 as smooth as a hot knife through butter.

One of the ways I help kids "get ahead" with Livecode is throw them a 
stack demonstrating some
functionality, and set them a task which involves building a new stack 
to do something that almost
reduplicates that functionality; they can then open up my stack, pull it 
to pieces, and "steal-and-modify"
(this is a programming technique first used in a highly effective way by 
William Shakespeare) my code

to both achieve their ends and learn at the same time.

Another thing that is quite instructive is to download some daft game 
from the internet written in
who-knows-what and get the kids, first, to consider its functionality, 
and secondly, how they might

possibly achieve that functionality in Livecode.

Livecode is very nearly "a man for all seasons" in that it can be used 
on all sorts of levels and in all
sorts of directions: whether as a largely visual progging environment, 
or a largely code-based
progging environment. That is its great strength and should neither be 
overlokked or poo-poo-ed.


Richmond.

On 16.10.2016 08:06, Kay C Lan wrote:

On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 2:39 AM, Richmond  wrote:


I would argue that you can do all of that within Livecode, thereby avoiding
a hiatus as you get kids to transfer.


And surely that's exactly the same argument as those who questions the
relevance of playing with a toy language like LiveCode when you could
just start with a real language like C, C++ etc.

There is no question that you can teach a child to read by using the
King James Bible; millions of people learned to read that way because
for decades, if not centuries the family Bible was the only book a
family possessed. I wonder for how many the family Bible was the only
book they ever read? I wonder how many developed a love of reading and
for how many it was nothing but a chore?

I dare say, at the time, some would say that Dr Seuss books were not
books at all but just a collection of nonsensical words with no point
or value. But for how many children did these toy words build an
understanding of real words and a love for reading? My wife is an avid
reader (and educator) who was extremely concerned when two of our
children struggled to learn to read - one with extreme lysdexia (I
seffur to). The dyslexic was 'cured' with comics and the other was
'cured' by J.K. Rowling.

The great thing about programming languages and IDE's is that they're
like books, they come in all sorts of sizes and flavours and suit a
wide variety of preferences, talents and learning styles. I'm not a
big reader but I love Dr Seuss books, maybe there's a correlation with
why I love LC ;-) No language/IDE will suit everyone at every age at
every learning stage, but few people would not be able to find a
language/IDE that gels with their way of learning/thinking right now.

With all the discussion between 'point and click' vs scripting/typing
there is one other method that has been skipped that, as with all such
things, was touted to be the next great thing in programming:
recording. AppleScript/Automator is the only example I can think of
but I assume there are others. Automator I guess being an
acknowledgement that 'recording' 

Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Kay C Lan]

On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 2:39 AM, Richmond  wrote:

> I would argue that you can do all of that within Livecode, thereby avoiding
> a hiatus as you get kids to transfer.
>
And surely that's exactly the same argument as those who questions the
relevance of playing with a toy language like LiveCode when you could
just start with a real language like C, C++ etc.

There is no question that you can teach a child to read by using the
King James Bible; millions of people learned to read that way because
for decades, if not centuries the family Bible was the only book a
family possessed. I wonder for how many the family Bible was the only
book they ever read? I wonder how many developed a love of reading and
for how many it was nothing but a chore?

I dare say, at the time, some would say that Dr Seuss books were not
books at all but just a collection of nonsensical words with no point
or value. But for how many children did these toy words build an
understanding of real words and a love for reading? My wife is an avid
reader (and educator) who was extremely concerned when two of our
children struggled to learn to read - one with extreme lysdexia (I
seffur to). The dyslexic was 'cured' with comics and the other was
'cured' by J.K. Rowling.

The great thing about programming languages and IDE's is that they're
like books, they come in all sorts of sizes and flavours and suit a
wide variety of preferences, talents and learning styles. I'm not a
big reader but I love Dr Seuss books, maybe there's a correlation with
why I love LC ;-) No language/IDE will suit everyone at every age at
every learning stage, but few people would not be able to find a
language/IDE that gels with their way of learning/thinking right now.

With all the discussion between 'point and click' vs scripting/typing
there is one other method that has been skipped that, as with all such
things, was touted to be the next great thing in programming:
recording. AppleScript/Automator is the only example I can think of
but I assume there are others. Automator I guess being an
acknowledgement that 'recording' quickly hit the wall and it was
obvious that it's only value was with automating repeatable processes.
Still, I learnt an enormous amount about AppleScript as a language by
recording a process and inspecting the resulting script. In fact, this
is true more so today as I use AppleScript so infrequently that
whenever I crack it open I usually record some process just to give me
a head start and a refresher on the syntax.

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Richmond]

On 15.10.2016 20:41, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Richmond wrote:

> Thank you, Richard Gaskin, for clarifying that.
>
> What that does do is confirm my view that teaching children stuff
> such as Scratch at school has little or no value in the sense that
> it is NOT a programming language.

I would caution against using the rants of a programmer as a 
substitute for sound pedagogy. :)


And in all fairness, even in my ignorance of good teaching methods for 
kids I know just enough about Piaget to have included:


   Scratch is an undeniably valuable tool for young minds.

There's a place for very simple tools in the early stages of 
introducing kids to algorithmic thinking.  Many times such exercises 
begin quite well on paper, only later graduating to things like Scratch.


Scratch is accessible because it has well-defined boundaries.

After a series of exercises, those boundaries will become walls.

And that's the moment to introduce scripting.


I would argue that you can do all of that within Livecode, thereby 
avoiding a hiatus as you get kids to transfer.


Richmond.



--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.com http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Roger Eller]

Scratch might be a digital version of Richmond's cups method.  I was
impressed many years ago with his description of putting things into cups
to teach children the concept of variables, writing the name of the var on
the cup, and changing their contents.  You can even put a variable into
another variable, and therefore its content travels with it (same with
cups).

~Roger

On Oct 15, 2016 1:42 PM, "Richard Gaskin" 
wrote:

> Richmond wrote:
>
> > Thank you, Richard Gaskin, for clarifying that.
> >
> > What that does do is confirm my view that teaching children stuff
> > such as Scratch at school has little or no value in the sense that
> > it is NOT a programming language.
>
> I would caution against using the rants of a programmer as a substitute
> for sound pedagogy. :)
>
> And in all fairness, even in my ignorance of good teaching methods for
> kids I know just enough about Piaget to have included:
>
>Scratch is an undeniably valuable tool for young minds.
>
> There's a place for very simple tools in the early stages of introducing
> kids to algorithmic thinking.  Many times such exercises begin quite well
> on paper, only later graduating to things like Scratch.
>
> Scratch is accessible because it has well-defined boundaries.
>
> After a series of exercises, those boundaries will become walls.
>
> And that's the moment to introduce scripting.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Richard Gaskin]

Richmond wrote:

> Thank you, Richard Gaskin, for clarifying that.
>
> What that does do is confirm my view that teaching children stuff
> such as Scratch at school has little or no value in the sense that
> it is NOT a programming language.

I would caution against using the rants of a programmer as a substitute 
for sound pedagogy. :)


And in all fairness, even in my ignorance of good teaching methods for 
kids I know just enough about Piaget to have included:


   Scratch is an undeniably valuable tool for young minds.

There's a place for very simple tools in the early stages of introducing 
kids to algorithmic thinking.  Many times such exercises begin quite 
well on paper, only later graduating to things like Scratch.


Scratch is accessible because it has well-defined boundaries.

After a series of exercises, those boundaries will become walls.

And that's the moment to introduce scripting.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Richmond]

Thank you, Richard Gaskin, for clarifying that.

What that does do is confirm my view that teaching children stuff such 
as Scratch at school

has little or no value in the sense that it is NOT a programming language.

Teaching Scratch reminds me of Jas Pitman's Initial Teaching Alphabet: 
intended to speed
up children's ability to read English all it succeeded in doing was in 
slowing down their
learning the English writing system because they had already learnt an 
"alphabet" with 45
letters, many of which, while resembling those in the English alphabet 
were effectively false friends.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_Teaching_Alphabet

Every time anyone says "Let's use Scratch with young children" I start 
sweating and having hot
flushes . . . and wonder why more is not being done to push Livecode and 
Livecode-like

programming IDEs in schools.

Richmond.

On 15.10.2016 18:23, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Richmond wrote:

> On Oct 5, 2016, at 10:22 , Richard Gaskin wrote:
>>
>> Like Bill Appleton told me shortly after he left his point-and-click
>> authoring tool CourseBuilder behind to make SuperCard, there's a
>> limit on the complexity of systems that can be expressed clearly in
>> any point-and-click UI, and ultimately code becomes the more
>> readable option for any but the most trivial of programs.
>>
>> After all, how many point-and-click tools used their point-and-click
>> tool to build their IDE? :)
>>
>> Today most of the point-and-click are gone, even the industry-
>> leading Authorware, while scripting language have taken over much of
>> the world to dominate applications development.
>
> Well, where does that put Livecode?

It leaves LiveCode where it's designed to be: among the world's most 
useful scripting language IDEs.



> Or, rather, are you, Richard Gaskin, suggesting that Livecode should
> be shedding its point-and-click heritage in favour of becoming a
> scripting-only language?
>
> While I am sure that is possible, at that point all the hard work
> that Kevin Miller did to extend the WYSIWYG aspect of MetaCard will
> go for nothing, and a very large part of what makes Livecode so
> strong will be lost.

I guess my writing was unclear.

I wasn't distinguishing between command-line tools and GUI tools, but 
between IDEs in which *programming* is done through typing or via a 
point-and-click GUI.


Of course LiveCode has a GUI for layout, as does XCode, Visual Basic, 
Xojo, and many others.


And like those, the *programming* within the tool is done by typing.

This is a clear distinction from tools like Authorware, IconAuthor, 
Scratch, and that whole category of VPLs, in which the *programming* 
is done via a point-and-click GUI.


Of course no one's advocating that Kevin turn LC into a 
command-line-only tool.  Please.


But no matter how much time we spend doing layout in the GUI, the 
objects we create are for the most part static.  If we want them to do 
anything we write code.  And when we write code we do so by typing.



> **Livecode* is not a point-and-click authoring tool, and nor is it
> something like C++; but it can be seen as a *hybrid* of these two
> extremes, where end-users can choose where along that*point-and-click
> to** **scripting language continuum* they want to work.

There's not much of a continuum there now.  There wasn't much in 
HyperCard either.


In HyperCard, the range of things you could code via its 
point-and-click auto-scripting palette was limited to simple 
navigation and little else.


Want to put the contents of one field into another?  Add two numbers 
and display the result?  Read a file from disk?  In Authorware and 
other VPLs you can do those things via point-and-click, but all those 
and nearly everything else we do require scripting in HyperCard, as it 
does in LiveCode (and Python, and JavaScript, and Swift, etc.).


Without scripting, LiveCode is only slightly more capable of making 
interactive media than any drawing program.  Which is to say close to 
NIL.


Responding to user actions with meaningful behavior in any scripting 
language requires, well, scripting.



My point wasn't that we should turn LC into a command-line tool.

My point was merely reinforcing what Bill Appleton observed, and what 
the market has demonstrated since:  point-and-click *programming* can 
sometimes lower cognitive load in early stages of learning, but at the 
cost of inhibiting the range of complexity it can gracefully support 
as one's skills grow.


While VPLs have for the most part come and gone, scripting has become 
the dominant means of applications development in the 21st century.


Scratch is an undeniably valuable tool for young minds.  But for 
delivery of professional applications, even richer VPLs than Scratch, 
like Authorware and IconAuthor, have waned while typing in scripting 
languages has only continued to grow.





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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Richard Gaskin]

Richmond wrote:

> On Oct 5, 2016, at 10:22 , Richard Gaskin wrote:
>>
>> Like Bill Appleton told me shortly after he left his point-and-click
>> authoring tool CourseBuilder behind to make SuperCard, there's a
>> limit on the complexity of systems that can be expressed clearly in
>> any point-and-click UI, and ultimately code becomes the more
>> readable option for any but the most trivial of programs.
>>
>> After all, how many point-and-click tools used their point-and-click
>> tool to build their IDE? :)
>>
>> Today most of the point-and-click are gone, even the industry-
>> leading Authorware, while scripting language have taken over much of
>> the world to dominate applications development.
>
> Well, where does that put Livecode?

It leaves LiveCode where it's designed to be: among the world's most 
useful scripting language IDEs.



> Or, rather, are you, Richard Gaskin, suggesting that Livecode should
> be shedding its point-and-click heritage in favour of becoming a
> scripting-only language?
>
> While I am sure that is possible, at that point all the hard work
> that Kevin Miller did to extend the WYSIWYG aspect of MetaCard will
> go for nothing, and a very large part of what makes Livecode so
> strong will be lost.

I guess my writing was unclear.

I wasn't distinguishing between command-line tools and GUI tools, but 
between IDEs in which *programming* is done through typing or via a 
point-and-click GUI.


Of course LiveCode has a GUI for layout, as does XCode, Visual Basic, 
Xojo, and many others.


And like those, the *programming* within the tool is done by typing.

This is a clear distinction from tools like Authorware, IconAuthor, 
Scratch, and that whole category of VPLs, in which the *programming* is 
done via a point-and-click GUI.


Of course no one's advocating that Kevin turn LC into a 
command-line-only tool.  Please.


But no matter how much time we spend doing layout in the GUI, the 
objects we create are for the most part static.  If we want them to do 
anything we write code.  And when we write code we do so by typing.



> **Livecode* is not a point-and-click authoring tool, and nor is it
> something like C++; but it can be seen as a *hybrid* of these two
> extremes, where end-users can choose where along that*point-and-click
> to** **scripting language continuum* they want to work.

There's not much of a continuum there now.  There wasn't much in 
HyperCard either.


In HyperCard, the range of things you could code via its point-and-click 
auto-scripting palette was limited to simple navigation and little else.


Want to put the contents of one field into another?  Add two numbers and 
display the result?  Read a file from disk?  In Authorware and other 
VPLs you can do those things via point-and-click, but all those and 
nearly everything else we do require scripting in HyperCard, as it does 
in LiveCode (and Python, and JavaScript, and Swift, etc.).


Without scripting, LiveCode is only slightly more capable of making 
interactive media than any drawing program.  Which is to say close to NIL.


Responding to user actions with meaningful behavior in any scripting 
language requires, well, scripting.



My point wasn't that we should turn LC into a command-line tool.

My point was merely reinforcing what Bill Appleton observed, and what 
the market has demonstrated since:  point-and-click *programming* can 
sometimes lower cognitive load in early stages of learning, but at the 
cost of inhibiting the range of complexity it can gracefully support as 
one's skills grow.


While VPLs have for the most part come and gone, scripting has become 
the dominant means of applications development in the 21st century.


Scratch is an undeniably valuable tool for young minds.  But for 
delivery of professional applications, even richer VPLs than Scratch, 
like Authorware and IconAuthor, have waned while typing in scripting 
languages has only continued to grow.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Richmond]

Aha!

On 15.10.2016 17:04, Colin Holgate wrote:

I believe Richard was talking about tools that only did point and click.


Well tools that only do point and click are a bit of a dead loss because 
their authors are
unable to make them fine-grained enough that end-users can tune them 
sufficiently to

produce anything other than clunky monsters.

Richmond.


Everything had to be achieved by placing elements and setting parameters. 
mTropolis was one of the neater tools of that type, but it would take a lot of 
logical thinking to get it to achieve things that could be done in a few lines 
of code.

It’s a good thing if a tool is a combination of visual layout and then some 
scripting. Even Xcode uses an interface builder tool.



On Oct 15, 2016, at 5:01 AM, Richmond  wrote:

Well, where does that put Livecode?

Or, rather, are you, Richard Gaskin, suggesting that Livecode should be 
shedding its point-and-click
heritage in favour of becoming a scripting-only language?

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Colin Holgate]

I believe Richard was talking about tools that only did point and click. 
Everything had to be achieved by placing elements and setting parameters. 
mTropolis was one of the neater tools of that type, but it would take a lot of 
logical thinking to get it to achieve things that could be done in a few lines 
of code.

It’s a good thing if a tool is a combination of visual layout and then some 
scripting. Even Xcode uses an interface builder tool.


> On Oct 15, 2016, at 5:01 AM, Richmond  wrote:
> 
> Well, where does that put Livecode?
> 
> Or, rather, are you, Richard Gaskin, suggesting that Livecode should be 
> shedding its point-and-click
> heritage in favour of becoming a scripting-only language?

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Richmond]

On 15.10.2016 07:14, Bob Sneidar wrote:

Filemaker has a point and click programming interface. It just gets in the way. I spent 
more time perusing the dialog and sub-dialog boxes to try and figure out how to add 1 to 
a variable that contains 1, that I found myself saying, "Can't I just type a 
formula??"

I gave up on Filemaker.

Bob S


On Oct 5, 2016, at 10:22 , Richard Gaskin 
> wrote:

Like Bill Appleton told me shortly after he left his point-and-click authoring 
tool CourseBuilder behind to make SuperCard, there's a limit on the complexity 
of systems that can be expressed clearly in any point-and-click UI, and 
ultimately code becomes the more readable option for any but the most trivial 
of programs.

After all, how many point-and-click tools used their point-and-click tool to 
build their IDE? :)

Today most of the point-and-click are gone, even the industry-leading 
Authorware, while scripting language have taken over much of the world to 
dominate applications development.


Well, where does that put Livecode?

Or, rather, are you, Richard Gaskin, suggesting that Livecode should be 
shedding its point-and-click

heritage in favour of becoming a scripting-only language?

While I am sure that is possible, at that point all the hard work that 
Kevin Miller did to extend
the WYSIWYG aspect of MetaCard will go for nothing, and a very large 
part of what makes Livecode so

strong will be lost.
*
**Livecode* is not a point-and-click authoring tool, and nor is it 
something like C++; but it can be seen
as a *hybrid* of these two extremes, where end-users can choose where 
along that*point-and-click to**

**scripting language continuum* they want to work.

If Livecode's point-and-click interface "just gets in the way" there is 
no earthly reason why one cannot do the whole thing by scripting alone 
[frankly, making buttons, fields and other "furniture" by scripting
seems, after years of Livecode 'as it is', unnecessarily tedious], but 
that doesn't mean it has to
whither-and-die like some sort of Marxist waning away of the state, 
especially when it is a great strength of Livecode.


Richmond.



--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World Systems
Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[stephen barncard]

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 9:14 PM, Bob Sneidar 
wrote:

> Filemaker has a point and click programming interface. It just gets in the
> way. I spent more time perusing the dialog and sub-dialog boxes to try and
> figure out how to add 1 to a variable that contains 1, that I found myself
> saying, "Can't I just type a formula??"
>
> I gave up on Filemaker.
>
> Bob S
>

the newest version of Numbers has awesome features that make me consider
never using Filemaker for 'simple databases' again.
especially ones that are for extended data organizers. It never got in the
way.

Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Bob Sneidar]

Filemaker has a point and click programming interface. It just gets in the way. 
I spent more time perusing the dialog and sub-dialog boxes to try and figure 
out how to add 1 to a variable that contains 1, that I found myself saying, 
"Can't I just type a formula??"

I gave up on Filemaker.

Bob S


On Oct 5, 2016, at 10:22 , Richard Gaskin 
> wrote:

Like Bill Appleton told me shortly after he left his point-and-click authoring 
tool CourseBuilder behind to make SuperCard, there's a limit on the complexity 
of systems that can be expressed clearly in any point-and-click UI, and 
ultimately code becomes the more readable option for any but the most trivial 
of programs.

After all, how many point-and-click tools used their point-and-click tool to 
build their IDE? :)

Today most of the point-and-click are gone, even the industry-leading 
Authorware, while scripting language have taken over much of the world to 
dominate applications development.

--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World Systems
Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Dr. Hawkins]

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 2:25 AM, David V Glasgow  wrote:

> Do not try to bend the card.


Nor spindle fold, or mutilate . . .


-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[David V Glasgow]

Richard,

I take issue that the specific metaphor doesn’t matter.  Stacks and cards are 
great metaphors for that period of time when a potential programmer is trying 
to build a mental model of what exactly it is they are trying  to do on screen, 
and relating that to the available tools and vocabulary.  mTropolis was fun, 
but I often just couldn’t remember how to do stuff, because I had no mental 
model that I could apply to the on screen abstractions. Despite a background in 
‘proper' languages, that kept tripping me up.

Of course, you are right. The magic sauce and sheer power is the script, but 
the metaphor there is English (at least to start with).  Most other languages 
are precisely that, other languages.  LiveCode (the script) approximates how 
the English speaking world make things happen in their day to day lives.  There 
was a recent post asking why Livecode ”Hello World” didn't look more English 
than any of the others.  I didn’t have time to respond, but it is relevant 
here.  The importance of the linguistic metaphor is obscured  by “Hello World”. 
 “Sort lines of tbiglist ascending by third word of each”  is better, but also 
reveals the gotcha in the English metaphor.  Should it be “Sort the lines”?  
“the third word”? Does it matter?  That snag arises because Hypertext languages 
adopt the English metaphor so well, the user can just take it too far.

Your ‘problem' Richard is that whereas I still delight in little piles of 
cards, I think you have transcended metaphor:  Do not try to bend the card. 
That's impossible. Instead only try to realise the truth  ;-)

David G

> On 5 Oct 2016, at 6:22 pm, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> David V Glasgow wrote:
> 
> >  I PAID in advance for the Windows version, and then switched to
> > mTropolis.  IIRC it trumpeted that it did not rely on a metaphor.
> >
> > Boy was I glad to get back to stacks & cards
> 
> For me it's not even the "card metaphor" - we could call it a "form" like VB 
> does or a "page" like Toolbook and I'd be just as happy.  I rarely use more 
> than one card in a window anyway.
> 
> For me the big benefit is a fully featured scripting language, and unlike so 
> many others ours has GUI elements as an inherent part of the language. With 
> this the code we write can reflect the user experience, making the process 
> from ideation of the UX to implementation of the UI a breeze.
> 
> I used to think about building mTropolis or iShell in LiveCode, doable were 
> it not for one thing:  I don't believe it's worth the time.
> 
> No matter how simple a development UI might _seem_, no point-and-click system 
> can deliver the flexibility and expressiveness of scripted code.
> 
> Like Bill Appleton told me shortly after he left his point-and-click 
> authoring tool CourseBuilder behind to make SuperCard, there's a limit on the 
> complexity of systems that can be expressed clearly in any point-and-click 
> UI, and ultimately code becomes the more readable option for any but the most 
> trivial of programs.
> 
> After all, how many point-and-click tools used their point-and-click tool to 
> build their IDE? :)
> 
> Today most of the point-and-click are gone, even the industry-leading 
> Authorware, while scripting language have taken over much of the world to 
> dominate applications development.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> 
> ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
> 
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Richmond]

I wonder how any development suite and/or language could claim it did not
rely on a metaphor unless it consisted of programming in nothing but 
ones and zeros?


Richmond.

On 5.10.2016 20:03, David V Glasgow wrote:

  I PAID in advance for the Windows version, and then switched to mTropolis.  
IIRC it trumpeted that it did not rely on a metaphor.

Boy was I glad to get back to stacks & cards

David G


On 5 Oct 2016, at 2:03 am, Earthednet-wp  wrote:

I waited a year for the DOS version. It never came. Then
I went to Director.
Bill

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Richard Gaskin]

David V Glasgow wrote:

>  I PAID in advance for the Windows version, and then switched to
> mTropolis.  IIRC it trumpeted that it did not rely on a metaphor.
>
> Boy was I glad to get back to stacks & cards

For me it's not even the "card metaphor" - we could call it a "form" 
like VB does or a "page" like Toolbook and I'd be just as happy.  I 
rarely use more than one card in a window anyway.


For me the big benefit is a fully featured scripting language, and 
unlike so many others ours has GUI elements as an inherent part of the 
language. With this the code we write can reflect the user experience, 
making the process from ideation of the UX to implementation of the UI a 
breeze.


I used to think about building mTropolis or iShell in LiveCode, doable 
were it not for one thing:  I don't believe it's worth the time.


No matter how simple a development UI might _seem_, no point-and-click 
system can deliver the flexibility and expressiveness of scripted code.


Like Bill Appleton told me shortly after he left his point-and-click 
authoring tool CourseBuilder behind to make SuperCard, there's a limit 
on the complexity of systems that can be expressed clearly in any 
point-and-click UI, and ultimately code becomes the more readable option 
for any but the most trivial of programs.


After all, how many point-and-click tools used their point-and-click 
tool to build their IDE? :)


Today most of the point-and-click are gone, even the industry-leading 
Authorware, while scripting language have taken over much of the world 
to dominate applications development.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[David V Glasgow]

 I PAID in advance for the Windows version, and then switched to mTropolis.  
IIRC it trumpeted that it did not rely on a metaphor.  

Boy was I glad to get back to stacks & cards

David G

> On 5 Oct 2016, at 2:03 am, Earthednet-wp  wrote:
> 
> I waited a year for the DOS version. It never came. Then 
> I went to Director.
> Bill

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Earthednet-wp]

I waited a year for the DOS version. It never came. Then 
I went to Director.
Bill

William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

> On Oct 4, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Dr. Hawkins  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Bob Sneidar 
> wrote:
> 
>> Agreed. I probably paid for the original Supercard and about 4 upgrades
>> over the years and never produced anything with it, but the ability to
>> continue working in a hypercard-like environment and wanting it to not go
>> the way of Hypercard was enough to keep me on the gravy train.
>> 
> 
> If I'd kept using it another year, I'd probably be wealthy now--I had no
> clue that the DOS version was actually going to ship in another year, and
> dropped my project.
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> I last used 1.5 . . . but a couple of years ago, I *was* able to import the
> stacks to the trial version of the then-current version (4.5?).  I had to
> drag out an old MacClassic, restore from a stack of backup disks (an
> adventure in itself, finding a copy of the backup program), write to
> floppy, convince a FreeBSD machine to read that, and then either burn a cd
> or use a usb to get it onto a modern mac . . .
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
> (702) 508-8462
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Dr. Hawkins]

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Bob Sneidar 
wrote:

> Agreed. I probably paid for the original Supercard and about 4 upgrades
> over the years and never produced anything with it, but the ability to
> continue working in a hypercard-like environment and wanting it to not go
> the way of Hypercard was enough to keep me on the gravy train.
>

If I'd kept using it another year, I'd probably be wealthy now--I had no
clue that the DOS version was actually going to ship in another year, and
dropped my project.

*sigh*

I last used 1.5 . . . but a couple of years ago, I *was* able to import the
stacks to the trial version of the then-current version (4.5?).  I had to
drag out an old MacClassic, restore from a stack of backup disks (an
adventure in itself, finding a copy of the backup program), write to
floppy, convince a FreeBSD machine to read that, and then either burn a cd
or use a usb to get it onto a modern mac . . .


-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Bob Sneidar]

Agreed. I probably paid for the original Supercard and about 4 upgrades over 
the years and never produced anything with it, but the ability to continue 
working in a hypercard-like environment and wanting it to not go the way of 
Hypercard was enough to keep me on the gravy train.

Bob S


On Sep 22, 2016, at 12:27 , stephen barncard 
> wrote:

I was a hypercard ACE but my three purchases of Supercard over the years
never got used.  I found the whole system baffling, an annoying workflow.
I always went back to HC.

sqb

Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Richmond]

Well, every time there is a new Supercard release I download the trial and,
every time, I wonder why I do that. But I do the same sort of thing for 
HyperNEXT as well

[ http://www.tigabyte.com ] so I'm obviously bonkers.

I owned a copy of SuperCard in 1995 and really could never work out how 
to do things

efficiently (after all Colour was doable in Hypercard at that stage).

Richmond.

On 22.09.2016 22:27, stephen barncard wrote:

I was a hypercard ACE but my three purchases of Supercard over the years
never got used.  I found the whole system baffling, an annoying workflow.
I always went back to HC.

sqb

Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Richmond 
wrote:


I, personally, playing on my G5 running PPC 10.5, cannot for the life of
me see any obvious
advantages of Supercard over Livecode. It strikes me that this is probably
largely used by people
who have dug themselves into a Macintosh-only corner.

Richmond.

On 22.09.2016 20:43, Dr. Hawkins wrote:


On the other side of the fence . . . SupercCard just emailed me about
their
public beta for 4.8.

Since it's mac only (again), I have no interest, and it apparently still
doesn't have things I need from LC 5 (and I presume at least 4).  (For
that
matter, the only things that I *really* need that weren't in SuperCard
1.5,
which ran the older version of my program in the 80s . . .)

But I wonder what they'd do if I presented my 1.5 disks for an upgrade :)



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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Dr. Hawkins]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Richmond 
wrote:

> I, personally, playing on my G5 running PPC 10.5, cannot for the life of
> me see any obvious
> advantages of Supercard over Livecode. It strikes me that this is probably
> largely used by people
> who have dug themselves into a Macintosh-only corner.
>

I started using it in '89 or '90 for the simple reason that it could have
two windows open.   Once HyperCard 2.0 rolled around, that was no longer
necessary, but converting back would have involved copy and pasting scripts
manually for every control, or some such hassle

Had I known that it would come out with a DOS version a year later, I
wouldn't have abandoned my program, and would probably be the dominant
vendor in my industry (and the program that filled that *still* doesn't do
things I did 25+ years ago . . .)

Develop on mac for everywhere is critical to me.  If it had a clear and
supported path to compile on android, I'd be shifting some of what I do to
Swift from livecode--but until then, no.


-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[stephen barncard]

I was a hypercard ACE but my three purchases of Supercard over the years
never got used.  I found the whole system baffling, an annoying workflow.
I always went back to HC.

sqb

Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Richmond 
wrote:

> I, personally, playing on my G5 running PPC 10.5, cannot for the life of
> me see any obvious
> advantages of Supercard over Livecode. It strikes me that this is probably
> largely used by people
> who have dug themselves into a Macintosh-only corner.
>
> Richmond.
>
> On 22.09.2016 20:43, Dr. Hawkins wrote:
>
>> On the other side of the fence . . . SupercCard just emailed me about
>> their
>> public beta for 4.8.
>>
>> Since it's mac only (again), I have no interest, and it apparently still
>> doesn't have things I need from LC 5 (and I presume at least 4).  (For
>> that
>> matter, the only things that I *really* need that weren't in SuperCard
>> 1.5,
>> which ran the older version of my program in the 80s . . .)
>>
>> But I wonder what they'd do if I presented my 1.5 disks for an upgrade :)
>>
>>
>
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Richmond]

I, personally, playing on my G5 running PPC 10.5, cannot for the life of 
me see any obvious
advantages of Supercard over Livecode. It strikes me that this is 
probably largely used by people

who have dug themselves into a Macintosh-only corner.

Richmond.

On 22.09.2016 20:43, Dr. Hawkins wrote:

On the other side of the fence . . . SupercCard just emailed me about their
public beta for 4.8.

Since it's mac only (again), I have no interest, and it apparently still
doesn't have things I need from LC 5 (and I presume at least 4).  (For that
matter, the only things that I *really* need that weren't in SuperCard 1.5,
which ran the older version of my program in the 80s . . .)

But I wonder what they'd do if I presented my 1.5 disks for an upgrade :)




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Supercard 4.8 public beta

[Dr. Hawkins]

On the other side of the fence . . . SupercCard just emailed me about their
public beta for 4.8.

Since it's mac only (again), I have no interest, and it apparently still
doesn't have things I need from LC 5 (and I presume at least 4).  (For that
matter, the only things that I *really* need that weren't in SuperCard 1.5,
which ran the older version of my program in the 80s . . .)

But I wonder what they'd do if I presented my 1.5 disks for an upgrade :)

-- 
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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