Re: Performance Question

[Benjamin Kim]

other data store without a lot of 
>>>>> analysis and thorough benchmarking, but it is certainly a goal of Kudu to 
>>>>> be a great platform for ingesting and analyzing data through Spark.  Up 
>>>>> till this point most of the Spark work has been community driven, but 
>>>>> more thorough integration testing of the Spark connector is going to be a 
>>>>> focus going forward.
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Dan
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Ben
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jun 15, 2016, at 12:47 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What workload are you using for benchmarks? Using spark or something 
>>>>>> more custom? rdd or data frame or SQL, etc? Maybe you can share the 
>>>>>> schema and some queries
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Todd
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Todd
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jun 15, 2016 8:10 AM, "Benjamin Kim" <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Todd,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Now that Kudu 0.9.0 is out. I have done some tests. Already, I am 
>>>>>> impressed. Compared to HBase, read and write performance are better. 
>>>>>> Write performance has the greatest improvement (> 4x), while read is > 
>>>>>> 1.5x. Albeit, these are only preliminary tests. Do you know of a way to 
>>>>>> really do some conclusive tests? I want to see if I can match your 
>>>>>> results on my 50 node cluster.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Ben
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On May 30, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>>>>>>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Todd,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It sounds like Kudu can possibly top or match those numbers put out by 
>>>>>>> Aerospike. Do you have any performance statistics published or any 
>>>>>>> instructions as to measure them myself as good way to test? In 
>>>>>>> addition, this will be a test using Spark, so should I wait for Kudu 
>>>>>>> version 0.9.0 where support will be built in?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> We don't have a lot of benchmarks published yet, especially on the 
>>>>>>> write side. I've found that thorough cross-system benchmarks are very 
>>>>>>> difficult to do fairly and accurately, and often times users end up 
>>>>>>> misguided if they pay too much attention to them :) So, given a finite 
>>>>>>> number of developers working on Kudu, I think we've tended to spend 
>>>>>>> more time on the project itself and less time focusing on 
>>>>>>> "competition". I'm sure there are use cases where Kudu will beat out 
>>>>>>> Aerospike, and probably use cases where Aerospike will beat Kudu as 
>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From my perspective, it would be great if you can share some details of 
>>>>>>> your workload, especially if there are some areas you're finding Kudu 
>>>>>>> lacking. Maybe we can spot some easy code changes we could make to 
>>>>>>> improve performance, or suggest a tuning variable you could change.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -Todd
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> First of all, thanks fo

Re: Performance Question

[Todd Lipcon]

rame or SQL, etc? Maybe you can share the schema
>>>>> and some queries
>>>>>
>>>>> Todd
>>>>>
>>>>> Todd
>>>>> On Jun 15, 2016 8:10 AM, "Benjamin Kim" <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Todd,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now that Kudu 0.9.0 is out. I have done some tests. Already, I am
>>>>>> impressed. Compared to HBase, read and write performance are better. 
>>>>>> Write
>>>>>> performance has the greatest improvement (> 4x), while read is > 1.5x.
>>>>>> Albeit, these are only preliminary tests. Do you know of a way to really 
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> some conclusive tests? I want to see if I can match your results on my 50
>>>>>> node cluster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Ben
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 30, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Todd,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It sounds like Kudu can possibly top or match those numbers put out
>>>>>>> by Aerospike. Do you have any performance statistics published or any
>>>>>>> instructions as to measure them myself as good way to test? In addition,
>>>>>>> this will be a test using Spark, so should I wait for Kudu version 0.9.0
>>>>>>> where support will be built in?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We don't have a lot of benchmarks published yet, especially on the
>>>>>> write side. I've found that thorough cross-system benchmarks are very
>>>>>> difficult to do fairly and accurately, and often times users end up
>>>>>> misguided if they pay too much attention to them :) So, given a finite
>>>>>> number of developers working on Kudu, I think we've tended to spend more
>>>>>> time on the project itself and less time focusing on "competition". I'm
>>>>>> sure there are use cases where Kudu will beat out Aerospike, and probably
>>>>>> use cases where Aerospike will beat Kudu as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From my perspective, it would be great if you can share some details
>>>>>> of your workload, especially if there are some areas you're finding Kudu
>>>>>> lacking. Maybe we can spot some easy code changes we could make to 
>>>>>> improve
>>>>>> performance, or suggest a tuning variable you could change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Todd
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting
>>>>>>>> read. I checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> article, they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that 
>>>>>>>> impressed
>>>>>>>> me was their claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 8x for 
>>>>>>>> writing
>>>>>>>> and 25x for reading. Their big claim to fame is that Aerospike can 
>>>>>>>> write 1M
>>>>>>>> records per second with only 50 nodes. I wanted to see if this is real.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well,
>>>>>>> depending on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been
>>>>>>> playing with a ~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ writes/second
>>>>>>> sustained, and bursting above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 11 columns, 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> with pretty old HDD-only nodes. I think newer flash-based nodes could do
>>>>>>> better.
>&g

Re: Performance Question

[Benjamin Kim]

com 
>>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Todd,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Now that Kudu 0.9.0 is out. I have done some tests. Already, I am 
>>>>> impressed. Compared to HBase, read and write performance are better. 
>>>>> Write performance has the greatest improvement (> 4x), while read is > 
>>>>> 1.5x. Albeit, these are only preliminary tests. Do you know of a way to 
>>>>> really do some conclusive tests? I want to see if I can match your 
>>>>> results on my 50 node cluster.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Ben
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On May 30, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> Todd,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It sounds like Kudu can possibly top or match those numbers put out by 
>>>>>> Aerospike. Do you have any performance statistics published or any 
>>>>>> instructions as to measure them myself as good way to test? In addition, 
>>>>>> this will be a test using Spark, so should I wait for Kudu version 0.9.0 
>>>>>> where support will be built in?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We don't have a lot of benchmarks published yet, especially on the write 
>>>>>> side. I've found that thorough cross-system benchmarks are very 
>>>>>> difficult to do fairly and accurately, and often times users end up 
>>>>>> misguided if they pay too much attention to them :) So, given a finite 
>>>>>> number of developers working on Kudu, I think we've tended to spend more 
>>>>>> time on the project itself and less time focusing on "competition". I'm 
>>>>>> sure there are use cases where Kudu will beat out Aerospike, and 
>>>>>> probably use cases where Aerospike will beat Kudu as well.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> From my perspective, it would be great if you can share some details of 
>>>>>> your workload, especially if there are some areas you're finding Kudu 
>>>>>> lacking. Maybe we can spot some easy code changes we could make to 
>>>>>> improve performance, or suggest a tuning variable you could change.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -Todd
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>>>>>>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read. I 
>>>>>>> checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the 
>>>>>>> article, they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that 
>>>>>>> impressed me was their claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 
>>>>>>> 8x for writing and 25x for reading. Their big claim to fame is that 
>>>>>>> Aerospike can write 1M records per second with only 50 nodes. I wanted 
>>>>>>> to see if this is real.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well, 
>>>>>>> depending on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've 
>>>>>>> been playing with a ~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ 
>>>>>>> writes/second sustained, and bursting above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 
>>>>>>> 11 columns, and with pretty old HDD-only nodes. I think newer 
>>>>>>> flash-based nodes could do better.
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> To answer your questions, we have a DMP with user profiles with many 
>>>>>>> attributes. We create segmentation information off of these attributes 
>>>>>>> to classify them. Then, we can target advertising appropriately for our 
>>>>>>> sales department. Much of the data processing is for applying models on 

Re: Performance Question

[Todd Lipcon]

gt;>>>
>>>>>> It sounds like Kudu can possibly top or match those numbers put out
>>>>>> by Aerospike. Do you have any performance statistics published or any
>>>>>> instructions as to measure them myself as good way to test? In addition,
>>>>>> this will be a test using Spark, so should I wait for Kudu version 0.9.0
>>>>>> where support will be built in?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We don't have a lot of benchmarks published yet, especially on the
>>>>> write side. I've found that thorough cross-system benchmarks are very
>>>>> difficult to do fairly and accurately, and often times users end up
>>>>> misguided if they pay too much attention to them :) So, given a finite
>>>>> number of developers working on Kudu, I think we've tended to spend more
>>>>> time on the project itself and less time focusing on "competition". I'm
>>>>> sure there are use cases where Kudu will beat out Aerospike, and probably
>>>>> use cases where Aerospike will beat Kudu as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> From my perspective, it would be great if you can share some details
>>>>> of your workload, especially if there are some areas you're finding Kudu
>>>>> lacking. Maybe we can spot some easy code changes we could make to improve
>>>>> performance, or suggest a tuning variable you could change.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Todd
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting
>>>>>>> read. I checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> article, they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that 
>>>>>>> impressed
>>>>>>> me was their claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 8x for 
>>>>>>> writing
>>>>>>> and 25x for reading. Their big claim to fame is that Aerospike can 
>>>>>>> write 1M
>>>>>>> records per second with only 50 nodes. I wanted to see if this is real.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well,
>>>>>> depending on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been
>>>>>> playing with a ~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ writes/second
>>>>>> sustained, and bursting above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 11 columns, and
>>>>>> with pretty old HDD-only nodes. I think newer flash-based nodes could do
>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To answer your questions, we have a DMP with user profiles with many
>>>>>>> attributes. We create segmentation information off of these attributes 
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> classify them. Then, we can target advertising appropriately for our 
>>>>>>> sales
>>>>>>> department. Much of the data processing is for applying models on all 
>>>>>>> or if
>>>>>>> not most of every profile’s attributes to find similarities (nearest
>>>>>>> neighbor/clustering) over a large number of rows when batch processing 
>>>>>>> or a
>>>>>>> small subset of rows for quick online scoring. So, our use case is a
>>>>>>> typical advanced analytics scenario. We have tried HBase, but it doesn’t
>>>>>>> work well for these types of analytics.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I read, that Aerospike in the release notes, they did do many
>>>>>>> improvements for batch and scan operations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder what your thoughts are for using Kudu for this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sounds like a good Kudu use case to me. I've heard great things about
>>>>>> Aerospike for the low latency random access portion, but I've also heard
>>>>>> that it's _very_ expensive, and not particularly suited to the columnar
>>>>>> scan workload. Lastly, I think the Apache license of Kudu is much more
>>>>>> appealing than the AGPL3 used by Aerospike. But, that's not really a 
>>>>>> direct
>>>>>> answer to the performance question :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Ben
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 6:21 PM, Mike Percy <mpe...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have you considered whether you have a scan heavy or a random access
>>>>>>> heavy workload? Have you considered whether you always access / update a
>>>>>>> whole row vs only a partial row? Kudu is a column store so has some
>>>>>>> awesome performance characteristics when you are doing a lot of 
>>>>>>> scanning of
>>>>>>> just a couple of columns.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know the answer to your question but if your concern is
>>>>>>> performance then I would be interested in seeing comparisons from a perf
>>>>>>> perspective on certain workloads.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Finally, a year ago Aerospike did quite poorly in a Jepsen test:
>>>>>>> https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder if they have addressed any of those issues.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am just curious. How will Kudu compare with Aerospike (
>>>>>>>> http://www.aerospike.com)? I went to a Spark Roadshow and found
>>>>>>>> out about this piece of software. It appears to fit our use case 
>>>>>>>> perfectly
>>>>>>>> since we are an ad-tech company trying to leverage our user profiles 
>>>>>>>> data.
>>>>>>>> Plus, it already has a Spark connector and has a SQL-like client. The
>>>>>>>> tables can be accessed using Spark SQL DataFrames and, also, made into 
>>>>>>>> SQL
>>>>>>>> tables for direct use with Spark SQL ODBC/JDBC Thriftserver. I see 
>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>> work done here http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/ that the
>>>>>>>> Spark integration is well underway and, from the looks of it lately, 
>>>>>>>> almost
>>>>>>>> complete. I would prefer to use Kudu since we are already a Cloudera 
>>>>>>>> shop,
>>>>>>>> and Kudu is easy to deploy and configure using Cloudera Manager. I also
>>>>>>>> hope that some of Aerospike’s speed optimization techniques can make it
>>>>>>>> into Kudu in the future, if they have not been already thought of or
>>>>>>>> included.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just some thoughts…
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> Ben
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mike Percy
>>>>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Todd Lipcon
>>>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Todd Lipcon
>>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Todd Lipcon
>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Todd Lipcon
> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>
>
>


-- 
Todd Lipcon
Software Engineer, Cloudera

Re: Performance Question

[Benjamin Kim]

 on the write 
>>>>> side. I've found that thorough cross-system benchmarks are very difficult 
>>>>> to do fairly and accurately, and often times users end up misguided if 
>>>>> they pay too much attention to them :) So, given a finite number of 
>>>>> developers working on Kudu, I think we've tended to spend more time on 
>>>>> the project itself and less time focusing on "competition". I'm sure 
>>>>> there are use cases where Kudu will beat out Aerospike, and probably use 
>>>>> cases where Aerospike will beat Kudu as well.
>>>>> 
>>>>> From my perspective, it would be great if you can share some details of 
>>>>> your workload, especially if there are some areas you're finding Kudu 
>>>>> lacking. Maybe we can spot some easy code changes we could make to 
>>>>> improve performance, or suggest a tuning variable you could change.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -Todd
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read. I 
>>>>>> checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the 
>>>>>> article, they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that 
>>>>>> impressed me was their claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 
>>>>>> 8x for writing and 25x for reading. Their big claim to fame is that 
>>>>>> Aerospike can write 1M records per second with only 50 nodes. I wanted 
>>>>>> to see if this is real.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well, 
>>>>>> depending on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been 
>>>>>> playing with a ~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ writes/second 
>>>>>> sustained, and bursting above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 11 columns, 
>>>>>> and with pretty old HDD-only nodes. I think newer flash-based nodes 
>>>>>> could do better.
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> To answer your questions, we have a DMP with user profiles with many 
>>>>>> attributes. We create segmentation information off of these attributes 
>>>>>> to classify them. Then, we can target advertising appropriately for our 
>>>>>> sales department. Much of the data processing is for applying models on 
>>>>>> all or if not most of every profile’s attributes to find similarities 
>>>>>> (nearest neighbor/clustering) over a large number of rows when batch 
>>>>>> processing or a small subset of rows for quick online scoring. So, our 
>>>>>> use case is a typical advanced analytics scenario. We have tried HBase, 
>>>>>> but it doesn’t work well for these types of analytics.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I read, that Aerospike in the release notes, they did do many 
>>>>>> improvements for batch and scan operations.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I wonder what your thoughts are for using Kudu for this.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sounds like a good Kudu use case to me. I've heard great things about 
>>>>>> Aerospike for the low latency random access portion, but I've also heard 
>>>>>> that it's _very_ expensive, and not particularly suited to the columnar 
>>>>>> scan workload. Lastly, I think the Apache license of Kudu is much more 
>>>>>> appealing than the AGPL3 used by Aerospike. But, that's not really a 
>>>>>> direct answer to the performance question :)
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Ben
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 6:21 PM, Mike Percy <mpe...@cloudera.com 
>>>>>>> <mailto:mpe...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Have you considered whether you have a scan heavy or a random access 
>>>>>>> heavy workload? Have you considered whether you always access / update 
>>>>>>> a whole row vs only a partial row? Kudu is a column store so has some 
>>>>>>> awesome performance characteristics when you are doing a lot of 
>>>>>>> scanning of just a couple of columns.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I don't know the answer to your question but if your concern is 
>>>>>>> performance then I would be interested in seeing comparisons from a 
>>>>>>> perf perspective on certain workloads.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Finally, a year ago Aerospike did quite poorly in a Jepsen test: 
>>>>>>> https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike 
>>>>>>> <https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I wonder if they have addressed any of those issues.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I am just curious. How will Kudu compare with Aerospike 
>>>>>>> (http://www.aerospike.com <http://www.aerospike.com/>)? I went to a 
>>>>>>> Spark Roadshow and found out about this piece of software. It appears 
>>>>>>> to fit our use case perfectly since we are an ad-tech company trying to 
>>>>>>> leverage our user profiles data. Plus, it already has a Spark connector 
>>>>>>> and has a SQL-like client. The tables can be accessed using Spark SQL 
>>>>>>> DataFrames and, also, made into SQL tables for direct use with Spark 
>>>>>>> SQL ODBC/JDBC Thriftserver. I see from the work done here 
>>>>>>> http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/ 
>>>>>>> <http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/> that the Spark integration 
>>>>>>> is well underway and, from the looks of it lately, almost complete. I 
>>>>>>> would prefer to use Kudu since we are already a Cloudera shop, and Kudu 
>>>>>>> is easy to deploy and configure using Cloudera Manager. I also hope 
>>>>>>> that some of Aerospike’s speed optimization techniques can make it into 
>>>>>>> Kudu in the future, if they have not been already thought of or 
>>>>>>> included.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Just some thoughts…
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Ben
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mike Percy
>>>>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Todd Lipcon
>>>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Todd Lipcon
>>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Todd Lipcon
>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Todd Lipcon
> Software Engineer, Cloudera

Re: Performance Question

[Benjamin Kim]

; On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read. I 
>>>>>> checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the 
>>>>>> article, they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that 
>>>>>> impressed me was their claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 
>>>>>> 8x for writing and 25x for reading. Their big claim to fame is that 
>>>>>> Aerospike can write 1M records per second with only 50 nodes. I wanted 
>>>>>> to see if this is real.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well, 
>>>>>> depending on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been 
>>>>>> playing with a ~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ writes/second 
>>>>>> sustained, and bursting above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 11 columns, 
>>>>>> and with pretty old HDD-only nodes. I think newer flash-based nodes 
>>>>>> could do better.
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> To answer your questions, we have a DMP with user profiles with many 
>>>>>> attributes. We create segmentation information off of these attributes 
>>>>>> to classify them. Then, we can target advertising appropriately for our 
>>>>>> sales department. Much of the data processing is for applying models on 
>>>>>> all or if not most of every profile’s attributes to find similarities 
>>>>>> (nearest neighbor/clustering) over a large number of rows when batch 
>>>>>> processing or a small subset of rows for quick online scoring. So, our 
>>>>>> use case is a typical advanced analytics scenario. We have tried HBase, 
>>>>>> but it doesn’t work well for these types of analytics.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I read, that Aerospike in the release notes, they did do many 
>>>>>> improvements for batch and scan operations.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I wonder what your thoughts are for using Kudu for this.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sounds like a good Kudu use case to me. I've heard great things about 
>>>>>> Aerospike for the low latency random access portion, but I've also heard 
>>>>>> that it's _very_ expensive, and not particularly suited to the columnar 
>>>>>> scan workload. Lastly, I think the Apache license of Kudu is much more 
>>>>>> appealing than the AGPL3 used by Aerospike. But, that's not really a 
>>>>>> direct answer to the performance question :)
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Ben
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 6:21 PM, Mike Percy <mpe...@cloudera.com 
>>>>>>> <mailto:mpe...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Have you considered whether you have a scan heavy or a random access 
>>>>>>> heavy workload? Have you considered whether you always access / update 
>>>>>>> a whole row vs only a partial row? Kudu is a column store so has some 
>>>>>>> awesome performance characteristics when you are doing a lot of 
>>>>>>> scanning of just a couple of columns.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I don't know the answer to your question but if your concern is 
>>>>>>> performance then I would be interested in seeing comparisons from a 
>>>>>>> perf perspective on certain workloads.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Finally, a year ago Aerospike did quite poorly in a Jepsen test: 
>>>>>>> https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike 
>>>>>>> <https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I wonder if they have addressed any of those issues.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I am just curious. How will Kudu compare with Aerospike 
>>>>>>> (http://www.aerospike.com <http://www.aerospike.com/>)? I went to a 
>>>>>>> Spark Roadshow and found out about this piece of software. It appears 
>>>>>>> to fit our use case perfectly since we are an ad-tech company trying to 
>>>>>>> leverage our user profiles data. Plus, it already has a Spark connector 
>>>>>>> and has a SQL-like client. The tables can be accessed using Spark SQL 
>>>>>>> DataFrames and, also, made into SQL tables for direct use with Spark 
>>>>>>> SQL ODBC/JDBC Thriftserver. I see from the work done here 
>>>>>>> http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/ 
>>>>>>> <http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/> that the Spark integration 
>>>>>>> is well underway and, from the looks of it lately, almost complete. I 
>>>>>>> would prefer to use Kudu since we are already a Cloudera shop, and Kudu 
>>>>>>> is easy to deploy and configure using Cloudera Manager. I also hope 
>>>>>>> that some of Aerospike’s speed optimization techniques can make it into 
>>>>>>> Kudu in the future, if they have not been already thought of or 
>>>>>>> included.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Just some thoughts…
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Ben
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mike Percy
>>>>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Todd Lipcon
>>>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Todd Lipcon
>>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Todd Lipcon
>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Todd Lipcon
> Software Engineer, Cloudera

Re: Performance Question

[Todd Lipcon]

est "Spark Data Store”. I’m wondering if Kudu will become this too?
>>> With the performance I’ve seen so far, it would seem that it can be a
>>> contender. All that is needed is a hardened Spark connector package, I
>>> would think. The next evaluation I will be conducting is to see if
>>> SnappyData’s claims are valid by doing my own tests.
>>>
>>
>> It's hard to compare Kudu against any other data store without a lot of
>> analysis and thorough benchmarking, but it is certainly a goal of Kudu to
>> be a great platform for ingesting and analyzing data through Spark.  Up
>> till this point most of the Spark work has been community driven, but more
>> thorough integration testing of the Spark connector is going to be a focus
>> going forward.
>>
>> - Dan
>>
>>
>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Ben
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 15, 2016, at 12:47 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>
>>> What workload are you using for benchmarks? Using spark or something
>>> more custom? rdd or data frame or SQL, etc? Maybe you can share the schema
>>> and some queries
>>>
>>> Todd
>>>
>>> Todd
>>> On Jun 15, 2016 8:10 AM, "Benjamin Kim" <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Todd,
>>>>
>>>> Now that Kudu 0.9.0 is out. I have done some tests. Already, I am
>>>> impressed. Compared to HBase, read and write performance are better. Write
>>>> performance has the greatest improvement (> 4x), while read is > 1.5x.
>>>> Albeit, these are only preliminary tests. Do you know of a way to really do
>>>> some conclusive tests? I want to see if I can match your results on my 50
>>>> node cluster.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Ben
>>>>
>>>> On May 30, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Todd,
>>>>>
>>>>> It sounds like Kudu can possibly top or match those numbers put out by
>>>>> Aerospike. Do you have any performance statistics published or any
>>>>> instructions as to measure them myself as good way to test? In addition,
>>>>> this will be a test using Spark, so should I wait for Kudu version 0.9.0
>>>>> where support will be built in?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We don't have a lot of benchmarks published yet, especially on the
>>>> write side. I've found that thorough cross-system benchmarks are very
>>>> difficult to do fairly and accurately, and often times users end up
>>>> misguided if they pay too much attention to them :) So, given a finite
>>>> number of developers working on Kudu, I think we've tended to spend more
>>>> time on the project itself and less time focusing on "competition". I'm
>>>> sure there are use cases where Kudu will beat out Aerospike, and probably
>>>> use cases where Aerospike will beat Kudu as well.
>>>>
>>>> From my perspective, it would be great if you can share some details of
>>>> your workload, especially if there are some areas you're finding Kudu
>>>> lacking. Maybe we can spot some easy code changes we could make to improve
>>>> performance, or suggest a tuning variable you could change.
>>>>
>>>> -Todd
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read.
>>>>>> I checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the
>>>>>> article, they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that impressed
>>>>>> me was their claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 8x for 
>>>>>> writing
>>>>>> and 25x for reading. Their big claim to fame is that Aerospike can write 
>>>>>> 1M
>>>>>> records per second with only 50 nodes. I wanted to see if this is real.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>&

Re: Performance Question

[Benjamin Kim]

but it is certainly a goal of Kudu to be 
>> a great platform for ingesting and analyzing data through Spark.  Up till 
>> this point most of the Spark work has been community driven, but more 
>> thorough integration testing of the Spark connector is going to be a focus 
>> going forward.
>> 
>> - Dan
>> 
>>  
>> Cheers,
>> Ben
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 15, 2016, at 12:47 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>> 
>>> What workload are you using for benchmarks? Using spark or something more 
>>> custom? rdd or data frame or SQL, etc? Maybe you can share the schema and 
>>> some queries
>>> 
>>> Todd
>>> 
>>> Todd
>>> 
>>> On Jun 15, 2016 8:10 AM, "Benjamin Kim" <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Hi Todd,
>>> 
>>> Now that Kudu 0.9.0 is out. I have done some tests. Already, I am 
>>> impressed. Compared to HBase, read and write performance are better. Write 
>>> performance has the greatest improvement (> 4x), while read is > 1.5x. 
>>> Albeit, these are only preliminary tests. Do you know of a way to really do 
>>> some conclusive tests? I want to see if I can match your results on my 50 
>>> node cluster.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Ben
>>> 
>>>> On May 30, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>>>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Todd,
>>>> 
>>>> It sounds like Kudu can possibly top or match those numbers put out by 
>>>> Aerospike. Do you have any performance statistics published or any 
>>>> instructions as to measure them myself as good way to test? In addition, 
>>>> this will be a test using Spark, so should I wait for Kudu version 0.9.0 
>>>> where support will be built in?
>>>> 
>>>> We don't have a lot of benchmarks published yet, especially on the write 
>>>> side. I've found that thorough cross-system benchmarks are very difficult 
>>>> to do fairly and accurately, and often times users end up misguided if 
>>>> they pay too much attention to them :) So, given a finite number of 
>>>> developers working on Kudu, I think we've tended to spend more time on the 
>>>> project itself and less time focusing on "competition". I'm sure there are 
>>>> use cases where Kudu will beat out Aerospike, and probably use cases where 
>>>> Aerospike will beat Kudu as well.
>>>> 
>>>> From my perspective, it would be great if you can share some details of 
>>>> your workload, especially if there are some areas you're finding Kudu 
>>>> lacking. Maybe we can spot some easy code changes we could make to improve 
>>>> performance, or suggest a tuning variable you could change.
>>>> 
>>>> -Todd
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>>>>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>> 
>>>>> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read. I 
>>>>> checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the 
>>>>> article, they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that impressed 
>>>>> me was their claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 8x for 
>>>>> writing and 25x for reading. Their big claim to fame is that Aerospike 
>>>>> can write 1M records per second with only 50 nodes. I wanted to see if 
>>>>> this is real.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well, 
>>>>> depending on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been 
>>>>> playing with a ~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ writes/second 
>>>>> sustained, and bursting above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 11 columns, and 
>>>>> with pretty old HDD-only nodes. I think newer flash-based nodes could do 
>>>>>

Re: Performance Question

[Todd Lipcon]

m> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Benjamin,
>>
>> What workload are you using for benchmarks? Using spark or something more
>> custom? rdd or data frame or SQL, etc? Maybe you can share the schema and
>> some queries
>>
>> Todd
>>
>> Todd
>> On Jun 15, 2016 8:10 AM, "Benjamin Kim" <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Todd,
>>>
>>> Now that Kudu 0.9.0 is out. I have done some tests. Already, I am
>>> impressed. Compared to HBase, read and write performance are better. Write
>>> performance has the greatest improvement (> 4x), while read is > 1.5x.
>>> Albeit, these are only preliminary tests. Do you know of a way to really do
>>> some conclusive tests? I want to see if I can match your results on my 50
>>> node cluster.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Ben
>>>
>>> On May 30, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Todd,
>>>>
>>>> It sounds like Kudu can possibly top or match those numbers put out by
>>>> Aerospike. Do you have any performance statistics published or any
>>>> instructions as to measure them myself as good way to test? In addition,
>>>> this will be a test using Spark, so should I wait for Kudu version 0.9.0
>>>> where support will be built in?
>>>>
>>>
>>> We don't have a lot of benchmarks published yet, especially on the write
>>> side. I've found that thorough cross-system benchmarks are very difficult
>>> to do fairly and accurately, and often times users end up misguided if they
>>> pay too much attention to them :) So, given a finite number of developers
>>> working on Kudu, I think we've tended to spend more time on the project
>>> itself and less time focusing on "competition". I'm sure there are use
>>> cases where Kudu will beat out Aerospike, and probably use cases where
>>> Aerospike will beat Kudu as well.
>>>
>>> From my perspective, it would be great if you can share some details of
>>> your workload, especially if there are some areas you're finding Kudu
>>> lacking. Maybe we can spot some easy code changes we could make to improve
>>> performance, or suggest a tuning variable you could change.
>>>
>>> -Todd
>>>
>>>
>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>>
>>>>> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read.
>>>>> I checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the
>>>>> article, they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that impressed
>>>>> me was their claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 8x for 
>>>>> writing
>>>>> and 25x for reading. Their big claim to fame is that Aerospike can write 
>>>>> 1M
>>>>> records per second with only 50 nodes. I wanted to see if this is real.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well,
>>>> depending on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been
>>>> playing with a ~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ writes/second
>>>> sustained, and bursting above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 11 columns, and
>>>> with pretty old HDD-only nodes. I think newer flash-based nodes could do
>>>> better.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To answer your questions, we have a DMP with user profiles with many
>>>>> attributes. We create segmentation information off of these attributes to
>>>>> classify them. Then, we can target advertising appropriately for our sales
>>>>> department. Much of the data processing is for applying models on all or 
>>>>> if
>>>>> not most of every profile’s attributes to find similarities (nearest
>>>>> neighbor/clustering) over a large number of rows when batch processing or 
>>>>> a
>>>>> small subset of rows for quick online scoring. So, our use case is a
>>>>> typical advanced analytics scenario. We have tried HBase, but it doesn’t
>>>>> work well for these types

Re: Performance Question

[Benjamin Kim]

, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>>>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>> 
>>>> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read. I 
>>>> checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the 
>>>> article, they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that impressed 
>>>> me was their claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 8x for 
>>>> writing and 25x for reading. Their big claim to fame is that Aerospike can 
>>>> write 1M records per second with only 50 nodes. I wanted to see if this is 
>>>> real.
>>>> 
>>>> 1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well, 
>>>> depending on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been 
>>>> playing with a ~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ writes/second 
>>>> sustained, and bursting above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 11 columns, and 
>>>> with pretty old HDD-only nodes. I think newer flash-based nodes could do 
>>>> better.
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> To answer your questions, we have a DMP with user profiles with many 
>>>> attributes. We create segmentation information off of these attributes to 
>>>> classify them. Then, we can target advertising appropriately for our sales 
>>>> department. Much of the data processing is for applying models on all or 
>>>> if not most of every profile’s attributes to find similarities (nearest 
>>>> neighbor/clustering) over a large number of rows when batch processing or 
>>>> a small subset of rows for quick online scoring. So, our use case is a 
>>>> typical advanced analytics scenario. We have tried HBase, but it doesn’t 
>>>> work well for these types of analytics.
>>>> 
>>>> I read, that Aerospike in the release notes, they did do many improvements 
>>>> for batch and scan operations.
>>>> 
>>>> I wonder what your thoughts are for using Kudu for this.
>>>> 
>>>> Sounds like a good Kudu use case to me. I've heard great things about 
>>>> Aerospike for the low latency random access portion, but I've also heard 
>>>> that it's _very_ expensive, and not particularly suited to the columnar 
>>>> scan workload. Lastly, I think the Apache license of Kudu is much more 
>>>> appealing than the AGPL3 used by Aerospike. But, that's not really a 
>>>> direct answer to the performance question :)
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Ben
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 6:21 PM, Mike Percy <mpe...@cloudera.com 
>>>>> <mailto:mpe...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Have you considered whether you have a scan heavy or a random access 
>>>>> heavy workload? Have you considered whether you always access / update a 
>>>>> whole row vs only a partial row? Kudu is a column store so has some 
>>>>> awesome performance characteristics when you are doing a lot of scanning 
>>>>> of just a couple of columns.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't know the answer to your question but if your concern is 
>>>>> performance then I would be interested in seeing comparisons from a perf 
>>>>> perspective on certain workloads.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Finally, a year ago Aerospike did quite poorly in a Jepsen test: 
>>>>> https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike 
>>>>> <https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike>
>>>>> 
>>>>> I wonder if they have addressed any of those issues.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mike
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> I am just curious. How will Kudu compare with Aerospike 
>>>>> (http://www.aerospike.com <http://www.aerospike.com/>)? I went to a Spark 
>>>>> Roadshow and found out about this piece of software. It appears to fit 
>>>>> our use case perfectly since we are an ad-tech company trying to leverage 
>>>>> our user profiles data. Plus, it already has a Spark connector and has a 
>>>>> SQL-like client. The tables can be accessed using Spark SQL DataFrames 
>>>>> and, also, made into SQL tables for direct use with Spark SQL ODBC/JDBC 
>>>>> Thriftserver. I see from the work done here 
>>>>> http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/ 
>>>>> <http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/> that the Spark integration is 
>>>>> well underway and, from the looks of it lately, almost complete. I would 
>>>>> prefer to use Kudu since we are already a Cloudera shop, and Kudu is easy 
>>>>> to deploy and configure using Cloudera Manager. I also hope that some of 
>>>>> Aerospike’s speed optimization techniques can make it into Kudu in the 
>>>>> future, if they have not been already thought of or included.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Just some thoughts…
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Ben
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Mike Percy
>>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Todd Lipcon
>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Todd Lipcon
>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>> 
> 
> 

Re: Performance Question

[Dan Burkert]

l,
>>> depending on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been
>>> playing with a ~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ writes/second
>>> sustained, and bursting above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 11 columns, and
>>> with pretty old HDD-only nodes. I think newer flash-based nodes could do
>>> better.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> To answer your questions, we have a DMP with user profiles with many
>>>> attributes. We create segmentation information off of these attributes to
>>>> classify them. Then, we can target advertising appropriately for our sales
>>>> department. Much of the data processing is for applying models on all or if
>>>> not most of every profile’s attributes to find similarities (nearest
>>>> neighbor/clustering) over a large number of rows when batch processing or a
>>>> small subset of rows for quick online scoring. So, our use case is a
>>>> typical advanced analytics scenario. We have tried HBase, but it doesn’t
>>>> work well for these types of analytics.
>>>>
>>>> I read, that Aerospike in the release notes, they did do many
>>>> improvements for batch and scan operations.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder what your thoughts are for using Kudu for this.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sounds like a good Kudu use case to me. I've heard great things about
>>> Aerospike for the low latency random access portion, but I've also heard
>>> that it's _very_ expensive, and not particularly suited to the columnar
>>> scan workload. Lastly, I think the Apache license of Kudu is much more
>>> appealing than the AGPL3 used by Aerospike. But, that's not really a direct
>>> answer to the performance question :)
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Ben
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 6:21 PM, Mike Percy <mpe...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Have you considered whether you have a scan heavy or a random access
>>>> heavy workload? Have you considered whether you always access / update a
>>>> whole row vs only a partial row? Kudu is a column store so has some
>>>> awesome performance characteristics when you are doing a lot of scanning of
>>>> just a couple of columns.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know the answer to your question but if your concern is
>>>> performance then I would be interested in seeing comparisons from a perf
>>>> perspective on certain workloads.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, a year ago Aerospike did quite poorly in a Jepsen test:
>>>> https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if they have addressed any of those issues.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I am just curious. How will Kudu compare with Aerospike (
>>>>> http://www.aerospike.com)? I went to a Spark Roadshow and found out
>>>>> about this piece of software. It appears to fit our use case perfectly
>>>>> since we are an ad-tech company trying to leverage our user profiles data.
>>>>> Plus, it already has a Spark connector and has a SQL-like client. The
>>>>> tables can be accessed using Spark SQL DataFrames and, also, made into SQL
>>>>> tables for direct use with Spark SQL ODBC/JDBC Thriftserver. I see from 
>>>>> the
>>>>> work done here http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/ that the
>>>>> Spark integration is well underway and, from the looks of it lately, 
>>>>> almost
>>>>> complete. I would prefer to use Kudu since we are already a Cloudera shop,
>>>>> and Kudu is easy to deploy and configure using Cloudera Manager. I also
>>>>> hope that some of Aerospike’s speed optimization techniques can make it
>>>>> into Kudu in the future, if they have not been already thought of or
>>>>> included.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just some thoughts…
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Ben
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --
>>>> Mike Percy
>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Todd Lipcon
>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Todd Lipcon
>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: Performance Question

[Dan Burkert]

On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 2:46 AM, 袁康（梓悠） <yuankang...@alibaba-inc.com> wrote:

> How can I delete data in kudu table wiht spark  (not delete the table at
> all)?
>

We do not currently have a way to delete a Kudu table through the spark
connector, but you should be able to instantiate a Kudu client and delete
the table that way.  We have discussed making one of the spark write modes
do a truncate operation, but nothing has been implemented.

 - Dan


> --
> 发件人：Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com>
> 发送时间：2016年7月2日(星期六) 02:44
> 收件人：user <user@kudu.incubator.apache.org>
> 主 题：Re: Performance Question
>
> On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Todd,
>
> I changed the key to be what you suggested, and I can’t tell the
> difference since it was already fast. But, I did get more numbers.
>
> Yea, you won't see a substantial difference until you're inserting
> billions of rows, etc, and the keys and/or bloom filters no longer fit in
> cache.
>
>
> > 104M rows in Kudu table
> - read: 8s
> - count: 16s
> - aggregate: 9s
>
> The time to read took much longer from 0.2s to 8s, counts were the same
> 16s, and aggregate queries look longer from 6s to 9s.
>
> I’m still impressed.
>
> We aim to please ;-) If you have any interest in writing up these
> experiments as a blog post, would be cool to post them for others to learn
> from.
>
> -Todd
>
> On Jun 15, 2016, at 12:47 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Benjamin,
>
> What workload are you using for benchmarks? Using spark or something more
> custom? rdd or data frame or SQL, etc? Maybe you can share the schema and
> some queries
>
> Todd
>
> Todd
> On Jun 15, 2016 8:10 AM, "Benjamin Kim" <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Todd,
>
> Now that Kudu 0.9.0 is out. I have done some tests. Already, I am
> impressed. Compared to HBase, read and write performance are better. Write
> performance has the greatest improvement (> 4x), while read is > 1.5x.
> Albeit, these are only preliminary tests. Do you know of a way to really do
> some conclusive tests? I want to see if I can match your results on my 50
> node cluster.
>
> Thanks,
> Ben
>
> On May 30, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Todd,
>
> It sounds like Kudu can possibly top or match those numbers put out by
> Aerospike. Do you have any performance statistics published or any
> instructions as to measure them myself as good way to test? In addition,
> this will be a test using Spark, so should I wait for Kudu version 0.9.0
> where support will be built in?
>
> We don't have a lot of benchmarks published yet, especially on the write
> side. I've found that thorough cross-system benchmarks are very difficult
> to do fairly and accurately, and often times users end up misguided if they
> pay too much attention to them :) So, given a finite number of developers
> working on Kudu, I think we've tended to spend more time on the project
> itself and less time focusing on "competition". I'm sure there are use
> cases where Kudu will beat out Aerospike, and probably use cases where
> Aerospike will beat Kudu as well.
>
> From my perspective, it would be great if you can share some details of
> your workload, especially if there are some areas you're finding Kudu
> lacking. Maybe we can spot some easy code changes we could make to improve
> performance, or suggest a tuning variable you could change.
>
> -Todd
>
>
> On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read. I
> checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the article,
> they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that impressed me was
> their claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 8x for writing and
> 25x for reading. Their big claim to fame is that Aerospike can write 1M
> records per second with only 50 nodes. I wanted to see if this is real.
>
> 1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well,
> depending on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been
> playing with a ~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ writes/second
> sustained, and bursting above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 11 columns, and
> with pretty old HDD-only nodes. I think newer flash-based nodes could do
> better.
>
>
> To answer your q

Re: Performance Question

[Benjamin Kim]

 
>>> attributes. We create segmentation information off of these attributes to 
>>> classify them. Then, we can target advertising appropriately for our sales 
>>> department. Much of the data processing is for applying models on all or if 
>>> not most of every profile’s attributes to find similarities (nearest 
>>> neighbor/clustering) over a large number of rows when batch processing or a 
>>> small subset of rows for quick online scoring. So, our use case is a 
>>> typical advanced analytics scenario. We have tried HBase, but it doesn’t 
>>> work well for these types of analytics.
>>> 
>>> I read, that Aerospike in the release notes, they did do many improvements 
>>> for batch and scan operations.
>>> 
>>> I wonder what your thoughts are for using Kudu for this.
>>> 
>>> Sounds like a good Kudu use case to me. I've heard great things about 
>>> Aerospike for the low latency random access portion, but I've also heard 
>>> that it's _very_ expensive, and not particularly suited to the columnar 
>>> scan workload. Lastly, I think the Apache license of Kudu is much more 
>>> appealing than the AGPL3 used by Aerospike. But, that's not really a direct 
>>> answer to the performance question :)
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Ben
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 6:21 PM, Mike Percy <mpe...@cloudera.com 
>>>> <mailto:mpe...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Have you considered whether you have a scan heavy or a random access heavy 
>>>> workload? Have you considered whether you always access / update a whole 
>>>> row vs only a partial row? Kudu is a column store so has some awesome 
>>>> performance characteristics when you are doing a lot of scanning of just a 
>>>> couple of columns.
>>>> 
>>>> I don't know the answer to your question but if your concern is 
>>>> performance then I would be interested in seeing comparisons from a perf 
>>>> perspective on certain workloads.
>>>> 
>>>> Finally, a year ago Aerospike did quite poorly in a Jepsen test: 
>>>> https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike 
>>>> <https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike>
>>>> 
>>>> I wonder if they have addressed any of those issues.
>>>> 
>>>> Mike
>>>> 
>>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> I am just curious. How will Kudu compare with Aerospike 
>>>> (http://www.aerospike.com <http://www.aerospike.com/>)? I went to a Spark 
>>>> Roadshow and found out about this piece of software. It appears to fit our 
>>>> use case perfectly since we are an ad-tech company trying to leverage our 
>>>> user profiles data. Plus, it already has a Spark connector and has a 
>>>> SQL-like client. The tables can be accessed using Spark SQL DataFrames 
>>>> and, also, made into SQL tables for direct use with Spark SQL ODBC/JDBC 
>>>> Thriftserver. I see from the work done here 
>>>> http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/ 
>>>> <http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/> that the Spark integration is 
>>>> well underway and, from the looks of it lately, almost complete. I would 
>>>> prefer to use Kudu since we are already a Cloudera shop, and Kudu is easy 
>>>> to deploy and configure using Cloudera Manager. I also hope that some of 
>>>> Aerospike’s speed optimization techniques can make it into Kudu in the 
>>>> future, if they have not been already thought of or included.
>>>> 
>>>> Just some thoughts…
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Ben
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> --
>>>> Mike Percy
>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Todd Lipcon
>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Todd Lipcon
>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
> 

回复：Performance Question

[袁康（梓悠）]

How can I delete data in kudu table wiht spark  (not delete the table at 
all)?--发件人：Todd 
Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com>发送时间：2016年7月2日(星期六) 02:44收件人：user 
<user@kudu.incubator.apache.org>主　题：Re: Performance Question
On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Todd,
I changed the key to be what you suggested, and I can’t tell the difference 
since it was already fast. But, I did get more numbers.
Yea, you won't see a substantial difference until you're inserting billions of 
rows, etc, and the keys and/or bloom filters no longer fit in cache. 
> 104M rows in Kudu table- read: 8s- count: 16s- aggregate: 9s
The time to read took much longer from 0.2s to 8s, counts were the same 16s, 
and aggregate queries look longer from 6s to 9s.
I’m still impressed.
We aim to please ;-) If you have any interest in writing up these experiments 
as a blog post, would be cool to post them for others to learn from.
-Todd On Jun 15, 2016, at 12:47 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
Hi Benjamin,What workload are you using for benchmarks? Using spark or 
something more custom? rdd or data frame or SQL, etc? Maybe you can share the 
schema and some queriesToddToddOn Jun 15, 2016 8:10 AM, "Benjamin Kim" 
<bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Todd,
Now that Kudu 0.9.0 is out. I have done some tests. Already, I am impressed. 
Compared to HBase, read and write performance are better. Write performance has 
the greatest improvement (> 4x), while read is > 1.5x. Albeit, these are only 
preliminary tests. Do you know of a way to really do some conclusive tests? I 
want to see if I can match your results on my 50 node cluster.
Thanks,Ben

On May 30, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
Todd,
It sounds like Kudu can possibly top or match those numbers put out by 
Aerospike. Do you have any performance statistics published or any instructions 
as to measure them myself as good way to test? In addition, this will be a test 
using Spark, so should I wait for Kudu version 0.9.0 where support will be 
built in?
We don't have a lot of benchmarks published yet, especially on the write side. 
I've found that thorough cross-system benchmarks are very difficult to do 
fairly and accurately, and often times users end up misguided if they pay too 
much attention to them :) So, given a finite number of developers working on 
Kudu, I think we've tended to spend more time on the project itself and less 
time focusing on "competition". I'm sure there are use cases where Kudu will 
beat out Aerospike, and probably use cases where Aerospike will beat Kudu as 
well.
From my perspective, it would be great if you can share some details of your 
workload, especially if there are some areas you're finding Kudu lacking. Maybe 
we can spot some easy code changes we could make to improve performance, or 
suggest a tuning variable you could change.
-Todd

On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Mike,
First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read. I checked 
that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the article, they are 
evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that impressed me was their claim that 
they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 8x for writing and 25x for reading. Their 
big claim to fame is that Aerospike can write 1M records per second with only 
50 nodes. I wanted to see if this is real.
1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well, depending 
on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been playing with a 
~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ writes/second sustained, and bursting 
above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 11 columns, and with pretty old HDD-only 
nodes. I think newer flash-based nodes could do better. 
To answer your questions, we have a DMP with user profiles with many 
attributes. We create segmentation information off of these attributes to 
classify them. Then, we can target advertising appropriately for our sales 
department. Much of the data processing is for applying models on all or if not 
most of every profile’s attributes to find similarities (nearest 
neighbor/clustering) over a large number of rows when batch processing or a 
small subset of rows for quick online scoring. So, our use case is a typical 
advanced analytics scenario. We have tried HBase, but it doesn’t work well for 
these types of analytics.
I read, that Aerospike in the release notes, they did do many improvements for 
batch and scan operations.
I wonder what your thoughts are for using Kudu for this.
Sounds like a good Kudu use case to me. I've heard great things about Aerospike 
for the low latency random access po

Re: Performance Question

[Todd Lipcon]

ta processing is for applying models on all or if
>>>> not most of every profile’s attributes to find similarities (nearest
>>>> neighbor/clustering) over a large number of rows when batch processing or a
>>>> small subset of rows for quick online scoring. So, our use case is a
>>>> typical advanced analytics scenario. We have tried HBase, but it doesn’t
>>>> work well for these types of analytics.
>>>>
>>>> I read, that Aerospike in the release notes, they did do many
>>>> improvements for batch and scan operations.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder what your thoughts are for using Kudu for this.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sounds like a good Kudu use case to me. I've heard great things about
>>> Aerospike for the low latency random access portion, but I've also heard
>>> that it's _very_ expensive, and not particularly suited to the columnar
>>> scan workload. Lastly, I think the Apache license of Kudu is much more
>>> appealing than the AGPL3 used by Aerospike. But, that's not really a direct
>>> answer to the performance question :)
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Ben
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 6:21 PM, Mike Percy <mpe...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Have you considered whether you have a scan heavy or a random access
>>>> heavy workload? Have you considered whether you always access / update a
>>>> whole row vs only a partial row? Kudu is a column store so has some
>>>> awesome performance characteristics when you are doing a lot of scanning of
>>>> just a couple of columns.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know the answer to your question but if your concern is
>>>> performance then I would be interested in seeing comparisons from a perf
>>>> perspective on certain workloads.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, a year ago Aerospike did quite poorly in a Jepsen test:
>>>> https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if they have addressed any of those issues.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I am just curious. How will Kudu compare with Aerospike (
>>>>> http://www.aerospike.com)? I went to a Spark Roadshow and found out
>>>>> about this piece of software. It appears to fit our use case perfectly
>>>>> since we are an ad-tech company trying to leverage our user profiles data.
>>>>> Plus, it already has a Spark connector and has a SQL-like client. The
>>>>> tables can be accessed using Spark SQL DataFrames and, also, made into SQL
>>>>> tables for direct use with Spark SQL ODBC/JDBC Thriftserver. I see from 
>>>>> the
>>>>> work done here http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/ that the
>>>>> Spark integration is well underway and, from the looks of it lately, 
>>>>> almost
>>>>> complete. I would prefer to use Kudu since we are already a Cloudera shop,
>>>>> and Kudu is easy to deploy and configure using Cloudera Manager. I also
>>>>> hope that some of Aerospike’s speed optimization techniques can make it
>>>>> into Kudu in the future, if they have not been already thought of or
>>>>> included.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just some thoughts…
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Ben
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --
>>>> Mike Percy
>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Todd Lipcon
>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Todd Lipcon
>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>
>>
>>
>


-- 
Todd Lipcon
Software Engineer, Cloudera

Re: Performance Question

[Benjamin Kim]

doesn’t 
>>> work well for these types of analytics.
>>> 
>>> I read, that Aerospike in the release notes, they did do many improvements 
>>> for batch and scan operations.
>>> 
>>> I wonder what your thoughts are for using Kudu for this.
>>> 
>>> Sounds like a good Kudu use case to me. I've heard great things about 
>>> Aerospike for the low latency random access portion, but I've also heard 
>>> that it's _very_ expensive, and not particularly suited to the columnar 
>>> scan workload. Lastly, I think the Apache license of Kudu is much more 
>>> appealing than the AGPL3 used by Aerospike. But, that's not really a direct 
>>> answer to the performance question :)
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Ben
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 6:21 PM, Mike Percy <mpe...@cloudera.com 
>>>> <mailto:mpe...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Have you considered whether you have a scan heavy or a random access heavy 
>>>> workload? Have you considered whether you always access / update a whole 
>>>> row vs only a partial row? Kudu is a column store so has some awesome 
>>>> performance characteristics when you are doing a lot of scanning of just a 
>>>> couple of columns.
>>>> 
>>>> I don't know the answer to your question but if your concern is 
>>>> performance then I would be interested in seeing comparisons from a perf 
>>>> perspective on certain workloads.
>>>> 
>>>> Finally, a year ago Aerospike did quite poorly in a Jepsen test: 
>>>> https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike 
>>>> <https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike>
>>>> 
>>>> I wonder if they have addressed any of those issues.
>>>> 
>>>> Mike
>>>> 
>>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> I am just curious. How will Kudu compare with Aerospike 
>>>> (http://www.aerospike.com <http://www.aerospike.com/>)? I went to a Spark 
>>>> Roadshow and found out about this piece of software. It appears to fit our 
>>>> use case perfectly since we are an ad-tech company trying to leverage our 
>>>> user profiles data. Plus, it already has a Spark connector and has a 
>>>> SQL-like client. The tables can be accessed using Spark SQL DataFrames 
>>>> and, also, made into SQL tables for direct use with Spark SQL ODBC/JDBC 
>>>> Thriftserver. I see from the work done here 
>>>> http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/ 
>>>> <http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/> that the Spark integration is 
>>>> well underway and, from the looks of it lately, almost complete. I would 
>>>> prefer to use Kudu since we are already a Cloudera shop, and Kudu is easy 
>>>> to deploy and configure using Cloudera Manager. I also hope that some of 
>>>> Aerospike’s speed optimization techniques can make it into Kudu in the 
>>>> future, if they have not been already thought of or included.
>>>> 
>>>> Just some thoughts…
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Ben
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> --
>>>> Mike Percy
>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Todd Lipcon
>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Todd Lipcon
>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
> 

Re: Performance Question

[Todd Lipcon]

"continent_code", "country", "region", "dma", "city",
>>>> "zip", "isp", "line_speed",
>>>> "gender", "year_of_birth", "behaviors_read", "behaviors_written",
>>>> "key_value_pairs", "acamp_candidates",
>>>> "tag_format", "optimizer_name", "optimizer_version", "optimizer_ip",
>>>> "pixel_id", “video_id",
>>>> "video_network_id", "video_time_watched", "video_percentage_watched",
>>>> "video_media_type",
>>>> "video_player_iframed", "video_player_in_view", "video_player_width",
>>>> "video_player_height",
>>>> "conversion_valid_sale", "conversion_sale_amount",
>>>> "conversion_commission_amount", "conversion_step",
>>>> "conversion_currency", "conversion_attribution", "conversion_offer_id",
>>>> "custom_info", "frequency",
>>>> "recency_seconds", "cost", "revenue", “optimizer_acamp_id",
>>>> "optimizer_creative_id", "optimizer_ecpm", "impression_id",
>>>> "diagnostic_data",
>>>> "user_profile_mapping_source", "latitude", "longitude", "area_code",
>>>> "gmt_offset", "in_dst",
>>>> "proxy_type", "mobile_carrier", "pop", "hostname", "profile_expires",
>>>> "timestamp_iso", "reference_id",
>>>> "identity_organization", "identity_method"
>>>>
>>>> Most queries are like counts of how many users use what browser, how
>>>> many are unique users, etc. The part that scares most users is when it
>>>> comes to joining this data with other dimension/3rd party events tables
>>>> because of shear size of it.
>>>>
>>>> We do what most companies do, similar to what I saw in earlier
>>>> presentations of Kudu. We dump data out of HBase into partitioned Parquet
>>>> tables to make query performance manageable.
>>>>
>>>> I will coordinate with a data scientist today to do some tests. He is
>>>> working on identity matching/record linking of users from 2 domains: US and
>>>> Singapore, using probabilistic deduping algorithms. I will load the data
>>>> from ad events from both countries, and let him run his process against
>>>> this data in Kudu. I hope this will “wow” the team.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Ben
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 15, 2016, at 12:47 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>>
>>>> What workload are you using for benchmarks? Using spark or something
>>>> more custom? rdd or data frame or SQL, etc? Maybe you can share the schema
>>>> and some queries
>>>>
>>>> Todd
>>>>
>>>> Todd
>>>> On Jun 15, 2016 8:10 AM, "Benjamin Kim" <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Todd,
>>>>>
>>>>> Now that Kudu 0.9.0 is out. I have done some tests. Already, I am
>>>>> impressed. Compared to HBase, read and write performance are better. Write
>>>>> performance has the greatest improvement (> 4x), while read is > 1.5x.
>>>>> Albeit, these are only preliminary tests. Do you know of a way to really 
>>>>> do
>>>>> some conclusive tests? I want to see if I can match your results on my 50
>>>>> node cluster.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Ben
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 30, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Todd,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It sounds like Kudu can possibly top or match those numbers put out
>>>>>> by Aerospike. Do you have any performance statistics published or any
>>>>>> instructions as to measure them myself as good way to test? In addition,
>>>>>> this will be a test using Spark, so sho

Re: Performance Question

[Benjamin Kim]

ame", "optimizer_version", "optimizer_ip", 
>>>> "pixel_id", “video_id",
>>>> "video_network_id", "video_time_watched", "video_percentage_watched", 
>>>> "video_media_type",
>>>> "video_player_iframed", "video_player_in_view", "video_player_width", 
>>>> "video_player_height",
>>>> "conversion_valid_sale", "conversion_sale_amount", 
>>>> "conversion_commission_amount", "conversion_step",
>>>> "conversion_currency", "conversion_attribution", "conversion_offer_id", 
>>>> "custom_info", "frequency",
>>>> "recency_seconds", "cost", "revenue", “optimizer_acamp_id",
>>>> "optimizer_creative_id", "optimizer_ecpm", "impression_id", 
>>>> "diagnostic_data",
>>>> "user_profile_mapping_source", "latitude", "longitude", "area_code", 
>>>> "gmt_offset", "in_dst",
>>>> "proxy_type", "mobile_carrier", "pop", "hostname", "profile_expires", 
>>>> "timestamp_iso", "reference_id",
>>>> "identity_organization", "identity_method"
>>>> 
>>>> Most queries are like counts of how many users use what browser, how many 
>>>> are unique users, etc. The part that scares most users is when it comes to 
>>>> joining this data with other dimension/3rd party events tables because of 
>>>> shear size of it.
>>>> 
>>>> We do what most companies do, similar to what I saw in earlier 
>>>> presentations of Kudu. We dump data out of HBase into partitioned Parquet 
>>>> tables to make query performance manageable.
>>>> 
>>>> I will coordinate with a data scientist today to do some tests. He is 
>>>> working on identity matching/record linking of users from 2 domains: US 
>>>> and Singapore, using probabilistic deduping algorithms. I will load the 
>>>> data from ad events from both countries, and let him run his process 
>>>> against this data in Kudu. I hope this will “wow” the team.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Ben
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jun 15, 2016, at 12:47 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>>>>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>>> 
>>>>> What workload are you using for benchmarks? Using spark or something more 
>>>>> custom? rdd or data frame or SQL, etc? Maybe you can share the schema and 
>>>>> some queries
>>>>> 
>>>>> Todd
>>>>> 
>>>>> Todd
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jun 15, 2016 8:10 AM, "Benjamin Kim" <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Todd,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Now that Kudu 0.9.0 is out. I have done some tests. Already, I am 
>>>>> impressed. Compared to HBase, read and write performance are better. 
>>>>> Write performance has the greatest improvement (> 4x), while read is > 
>>>>> 1.5x. Albeit, these are only preliminary tests. Do you know of a way to 
>>>>> really do some conclusive tests? I want to see if I can match your 
>>>>> results on my 50 node cluster.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Ben
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On May 30, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> Todd,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It sounds like Kudu can possibly top or match those numbers put out by 
>>>>>> Aerospike. Do you have any performance statistics published or any 
>>>>>> instructions as to measure them myself as good way to test? In addition, 
>>>>>> this will be a test using Spark, so should I wait for Kudu version 0.9.0 
>>>>>> where support will be built in?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We don't have a lot of benchmarks

Re: Performance Question

[Todd Lipcon]

",
>>> "user_profile_mapping_source", "latitude", "longitude", "area_code",
>>> "gmt_offset", "in_dst",
>>> "proxy_type", "mobile_carrier", "pop", "hostname", "profile_expires",
>>> "timestamp_iso", "reference_id",
>>> "identity_organization", "identity_method"
>>>
>>> Most queries are like counts of how many users use what browser, how
>>> many are unique users, etc. The part that scares most users is when it
>>> comes to joining this data with other dimension/3rd party events tables
>>> because of shear size of it.
>>>
>>> We do what most companies do, similar to what I saw in earlier
>>> presentations of Kudu. We dump data out of HBase into partitioned Parquet
>>> tables to make query performance manageable.
>>>
>>> I will coordinate with a data scientist today to do some tests. He is
>>> working on identity matching/record linking of users from 2 domains: US and
>>> Singapore, using probabilistic deduping algorithms. I will load the data
>>> from ad events from both countries, and let him run his process against
>>> this data in Kudu. I hope this will “wow” the team.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Ben
>>>
>>> On Jun 15, 2016, at 12:47 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>
>>> What workload are you using for benchmarks? Using spark or something
>>> more custom? rdd or data frame or SQL, etc? Maybe you can share the schema
>>> and some queries
>>>
>>> Todd
>>>
>>> Todd
>>> On Jun 15, 2016 8:10 AM, "Benjamin Kim" <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Todd,
>>>>
>>>> Now that Kudu 0.9.0 is out. I have done some tests. Already, I am
>>>> impressed. Compared to HBase, read and write performance are better. Write
>>>> performance has the greatest improvement (> 4x), while read is > 1.5x.
>>>> Albeit, these are only preliminary tests. Do you know of a way to really do
>>>> some conclusive tests? I want to see if I can match your results on my 50
>>>> node cluster.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Ben
>>>>
>>>> On May 30, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Todd,
>>>>>
>>>>> It sounds like Kudu can possibly top or match those numbers put out by
>>>>> Aerospike. Do you have any performance statistics published or any
>>>>> instructions as to measure them myself as good way to test? In addition,
>>>>> this will be a test using Spark, so should I wait for Kudu version 0.9.0
>>>>> where support will be built in?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We don't have a lot of benchmarks published yet, especially on the
>>>> write side. I've found that thorough cross-system benchmarks are very
>>>> difficult to do fairly and accurately, and often times users end up
>>>> misguided if they pay too much attention to them :) So, given a finite
>>>> number of developers working on Kudu, I think we've tended to spend more
>>>> time on the project itself and less time focusing on "competition". I'm
>>>> sure there are use cases where Kudu will beat out Aerospike, and probably
>>>> use cases where Aerospike will beat Kudu as well.
>>>>
>>>> From my perspective, it would be great if you can share some details of
>>>> your workload, especially if there are some areas you're finding Kudu
>>>> lacking. Maybe we can spot some easy code changes we could make to improve
>>>> performance, or suggest a tuning variable you could change.
>>>>
>>>> -Todd
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read.
>>>>>> I checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the
>&g

Re: Performance Question

[Benjamin Kim]

entity matching/record linking of users from 2 domains: US and 
>>> Singapore, using probabilistic deduping algorithms. I will load the data 
>>> from ad events from both countries, and let him run his process against 
>>> this data in Kudu. I hope this will “wow” the team.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Ben
>>> 
>>>> On Jun 15, 2016, at 12:47 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>>>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>> 
>>>> What workload are you using for benchmarks? Using spark or something more 
>>>> custom? rdd or data frame or SQL, etc? Maybe you can share the schema and 
>>>> some queries
>>>> 
>>>> Todd
>>>> 
>>>> Todd
>>>> 
>>>> On Jun 15, 2016 8:10 AM, "Benjamin Kim" <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Hi Todd,
>>>> 
>>>> Now that Kudu 0.9.0 is out. I have done some tests. Already, I am 
>>>> impressed. Compared to HBase, read and write performance are better. Write 
>>>> performance has the greatest improvement (> 4x), while read is > 1.5x. 
>>>> Albeit, these are only preliminary tests. Do you know of a way to really 
>>>> do some conclusive tests? I want to see if I can match your results on my 
>>>> 50 node cluster.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Ben
>>>> 
>>>>> On May 30, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>>>>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Todd,
>>>>> 
>>>>> It sounds like Kudu can possibly top or match those numbers put out by 
>>>>> Aerospike. Do you have any performance statistics published or any 
>>>>> instructions as to measure them myself as good way to test? In addition, 
>>>>> this will be a test using Spark, so should I wait for Kudu version 0.9.0 
>>>>> where support will be built in?
>>>>> 
>>>>> We don't have a lot of benchmarks published yet, especially on the write 
>>>>> side. I've found that thorough cross-system benchmarks are very difficult 
>>>>> to do fairly and accurately, and often times users end up misguided if 
>>>>> they pay too much attention to them :) So, given a finite number of 
>>>>> developers working on Kudu, I think we've tended to spend more time on 
>>>>> the project itself and less time focusing on "competition". I'm sure 
>>>>> there are use cases where Kudu will beat out Aerospike, and probably use 
>>>>> cases where Aerospike will beat Kudu as well.
>>>>> 
>>>>> From my perspective, it would be great if you can share some details of 
>>>>> your workload, especially if there are some areas you're finding Kudu 
>>>>> lacking. Maybe we can spot some easy code changes we could make to 
>>>>> improve performance, or suggest a tuning variable you could change.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -Todd
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read. I 
>>>>>> checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the 
>>>>>> article, they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that 
>>>>>> impressed me was their claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 
>>>>>> 8x for writing and 25x for reading. Their big claim to fame is that 
>>>>>> Aerospike can write 1M records per second with only 50 nodes. I wanted 
>>>>>> to see if this is real.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well, 
>>>>>> depending on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been 
>>>>>> playing with a ~70 node cluster recen

Re: Performance Question

[Todd Lipcon]

gt; Albeit, these are only preliminary tests. Do you know of a way to really do
>>> some conclusive tests? I want to see if I can match your results on my 50
>>> node cluster.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Ben
>>>
>>> On May 30, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Todd,
>>>>
>>>> It sounds like Kudu can possibly top or match those numbers put out by
>>>> Aerospike. Do you have any performance statistics published or any
>>>> instructions as to measure them myself as good way to test? In addition,
>>>> this will be a test using Spark, so should I wait for Kudu version 0.9.0
>>>> where support will be built in?
>>>>
>>>
>>> We don't have a lot of benchmarks published yet, especially on the write
>>> side. I've found that thorough cross-system benchmarks are very difficult
>>> to do fairly and accurately, and often times users end up misguided if they
>>> pay too much attention to them :) So, given a finite number of developers
>>> working on Kudu, I think we've tended to spend more time on the project
>>> itself and less time focusing on "competition". I'm sure there are use
>>> cases where Kudu will beat out Aerospike, and probably use cases where
>>> Aerospike will beat Kudu as well.
>>>
>>> From my perspective, it would be great if you can share some details of
>>> your workload, especially if there are some areas you're finding Kudu
>>> lacking. Maybe we can spot some easy code changes we could make to improve
>>> performance, or suggest a tuning variable you could change.
>>>
>>> -Todd
>>>
>>>
>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>>
>>>>> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read.
>>>>> I checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the
>>>>> article, they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that impressed
>>>>> me was their claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 8x for 
>>>>> writing
>>>>> and 25x for reading. Their big claim to fame is that Aerospike can write 
>>>>> 1M
>>>>> records per second with only 50 nodes. I wanted to see if this is real.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well,
>>>> depending on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been
>>>> playing with a ~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ writes/second
>>>> sustained, and bursting above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 11 columns, and
>>>> with pretty old HDD-only nodes. I think newer flash-based nodes could do
>>>> better.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To answer your questions, we have a DMP with user profiles with many
>>>>> attributes. We create segmentation information off of these attributes to
>>>>> classify them. Then, we can target advertising appropriately for our sales
>>>>> department. Much of the data processing is for applying models on all or 
>>>>> if
>>>>> not most of every profile’s attributes to find similarities (nearest
>>>>> neighbor/clustering) over a large number of rows when batch processing or 
>>>>> a
>>>>> small subset of rows for quick online scoring. So, our use case is a
>>>>> typical advanced analytics scenario. We have tried HBase, but it doesn’t
>>>>> work well for these types of analytics.
>>>>>
>>>>> I read, that Aerospike in the release notes, they did do many
>>>>> improvements for batch and scan operations.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder what your thoughts are for using Kudu for this.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sounds like a good Kudu use case to me. I've heard great things about
>>>> Aerospike for the low latency random access portion, but I've also heard
>>>> that it's _very_ expensive, and not particularly suited to the columnar
>>>> scan workload. Lastly, I think the Apache license of Kudu is much more
>>>> appealing than the AGPL3 used by Aerospike. But, that's not really a direct
>>>> answer to the performance question :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Ben
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 6:21 PM, Mike Percy <mpe...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Have you considered whether you have a scan heavy or a random access
>>>>> heavy workload? Have you considered whether you always access / update a
>>>>> whole row vs only a partial row? Kudu is a column store so has some
>>>>> awesome performance characteristics when you are doing a lot of scanning 
>>>>> of
>>>>> just a couple of columns.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know the answer to your question but if your concern is
>>>>> performance then I would be interested in seeing comparisons from a perf
>>>>> perspective on certain workloads.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, a year ago Aerospike did quite poorly in a Jepsen test:
>>>>> https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder if they have addressed any of those issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am just curious. How will Kudu compare with Aerospike (
>>>>>> http://www.aerospike.com)? I went to a Spark Roadshow and found out
>>>>>> about this piece of software. It appears to fit our use case perfectly
>>>>>> since we are an ad-tech company trying to leverage our user profiles 
>>>>>> data.
>>>>>> Plus, it already has a Spark connector and has a SQL-like client. The
>>>>>> tables can be accessed using Spark SQL DataFrames and, also, made into 
>>>>>> SQL
>>>>>> tables for direct use with Spark SQL ODBC/JDBC Thriftserver. I see from 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> work done here http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/ that the
>>>>>> Spark integration is well underway and, from the looks of it lately, 
>>>>>> almost
>>>>>> complete. I would prefer to use Kudu since we are already a Cloudera 
>>>>>> shop,
>>>>>> and Kudu is easy to deploy and configure using Cloudera Manager. I also
>>>>>> hope that some of Aerospike’s speed optimization techniques can make it
>>>>>> into Kudu in the future, if they have not been already thought of or
>>>>>> included.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just some thoughts…
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Ben
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> --
>>>>> Mike Percy
>>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Todd Lipcon
>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Todd Lipcon
>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>


-- 
Todd Lipcon
Software Engineer, Cloudera

Re: Performance Question

[Benjamin Kim]

 to test? In addition, 
>>>> this will be a test using Spark, so should I wait for Kudu version 0.9.0 
>>>> where support will be built in?
>>>> 
>>>> We don't have a lot of benchmarks published yet, especially on the write 
>>>> side. I've found that thorough cross-system benchmarks are very difficult 
>>>> to do fairly and accurately, and often times users end up misguided if 
>>>> they pay too much attention to them :) So, given a finite number of 
>>>> developers working on Kudu, I think we've tended to spend more time on the 
>>>> project itself and less time focusing on "competition". I'm sure there are 
>>>> use cases where Kudu will beat out Aerospike, and probably use cases where 
>>>> Aerospike will beat Kudu as well.
>>>> 
>>>> From my perspective, it would be great if you can share some details of 
>>>> your workload, especially if there are some areas you're finding Kudu 
>>>> lacking. Maybe we can spot some easy code changes we could make to improve 
>>>> performance, or suggest a tuning variable you could change.
>>>> 
>>>> -Todd
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>>>>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>> 
>>>>> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read. I 
>>>>> checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the 
>>>>> article, they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that impressed 
>>>>> me was their claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 8x for 
>>>>> writing and 25x for reading. Their big claim to fame is that Aerospike 
>>>>> can write 1M records per second with only 50 nodes. I wanted to see if 
>>>>> this is real.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well, 
>>>>> depending on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been 
>>>>> playing with a ~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ writes/second 
>>>>> sustained, and bursting above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 11 columns, and 
>>>>> with pretty old HDD-only nodes. I think newer flash-based nodes could do 
>>>>> better.
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> To answer your questions, we have a DMP with user profiles with many 
>>>>> attributes. We create segmentation information off of these attributes to 
>>>>> classify them. Then, we can target advertising appropriately for our 
>>>>> sales department. Much of the data processing is for applying models on 
>>>>> all or if not most of every profile’s attributes to find similarities 
>>>>> (nearest neighbor/clustering) over a large number of rows when batch 
>>>>> processing or a small subset of rows for quick online scoring. So, our 
>>>>> use case is a typical advanced analytics scenario. We have tried HBase, 
>>>>> but it doesn’t work well for these types of analytics.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I read, that Aerospike in the release notes, they did do many 
>>>>> improvements for batch and scan operations.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I wonder what your thoughts are for using Kudu for this.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sounds like a good Kudu use case to me. I've heard great things about 
>>>>> Aerospike for the low latency random access portion, but I've also heard 
>>>>> that it's _very_ expensive, and not particularly suited to the columnar 
>>>>> scan workload. Lastly, I think the Apache license of Kudu is much more 
>>>>> appealing than the AGPL3 used by Aerospike. But, that's not really a 
>>>>> direct answer to the performance question :)
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Ben
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 6:21 PM, Mike Percy <mpe...@cloudera.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:mpe...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Have you considered whether you have a scan heavy or a random access 
>>>>>> heavy workload? Have you considered whether you always access / update a 
>>>>>> whole row vs only a partial row? Kudu is a column store so has some 
>>>>>> awesome performance characteristics when you are doing a lot of scanning 
>>>>>> of just a couple of columns.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I don't know the answer to your question but if your concern is 
>>>>>> performance then I would be interested in seeing comparisons from a perf 
>>>>>> perspective on certain workloads.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Finally, a year ago Aerospike did quite poorly in a Jepsen test: 
>>>>>> https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike 
>>>>>> <https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I wonder if they have addressed any of those issues.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> I am just curious. How will Kudu compare with Aerospike 
>>>>>> (http://www.aerospike.com <http://www.aerospike.com/>)? I went to a 
>>>>>> Spark Roadshow and found out about this piece of software. It appears to 
>>>>>> fit our use case perfectly since we are an ad-tech company trying to 
>>>>>> leverage our user profiles data. Plus, it already has a Spark connector 
>>>>>> and has a SQL-like client. The tables can be accessed using Spark SQL 
>>>>>> DataFrames and, also, made into SQL tables for direct use with Spark SQL 
>>>>>> ODBC/JDBC Thriftserver. I see from the work done here 
>>>>>> http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/ 
>>>>>> <http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/> that the Spark integration 
>>>>>> is well underway and, from the looks of it lately, almost complete. I 
>>>>>> would prefer to use Kudu since we are already a Cloudera shop, and Kudu 
>>>>>> is easy to deploy and configure using Cloudera Manager. I also hope that 
>>>>>> some of Aerospike’s speed optimization techniques can make it into Kudu 
>>>>>> in the future, if they have not been already thought of or included.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Just some thoughts…
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Ben
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Mike Percy
>>>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Todd Lipcon
>>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Todd Lipcon
>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 

Re: Performance Question

[Dan Burkert]

> shear size of it.
>
> We do what most companies do, similar to what I saw in earlier
> presentations of Kudu. We dump data out of HBase into partitioned Parquet
> tables to make query performance manageable.
>
> I will coordinate with a data scientist today to do some tests. He is
> working on identity matching/record linking of users from 2 domains: US and
> Singapore, using probabilistic deduping algorithms. I will load the data
> from ad events from both countries, and let him run his process against
> this data in Kudu. I hope this will “wow” the team.
>
> Thanks,
> Ben
>
> On Jun 15, 2016, at 12:47 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Benjamin,
>
> What workload are you using for benchmarks? Using spark or something more
> custom? rdd or data frame or SQL, etc? Maybe you can share the schema and
> some queries
>
> Todd
>
> Todd
> On Jun 15, 2016 8:10 AM, "Benjamin Kim" <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Todd,
>>
>> Now that Kudu 0.9.0 is out. I have done some tests. Already, I am
>> impressed. Compared to HBase, read and write performance are better. Write
>> performance has the greatest improvement (> 4x), while read is > 1.5x.
>> Albeit, these are only preliminary tests. Do you know of a way to really do
>> some conclusive tests? I want to see if I can match your results on my 50
>> node cluster.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ben
>>
>> On May 30, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Todd,
>>>
>>> It sounds like Kudu can possibly top or match those numbers put out by
>>> Aerospike. Do you have any performance statistics published or any
>>> instructions as to measure them myself as good way to test? In addition,
>>> this will be a test using Spark, so should I wait for Kudu version 0.9.0
>>> where support will be built in?
>>>
>>
>> We don't have a lot of benchmarks published yet, especially on the write
>> side. I've found that thorough cross-system benchmarks are very difficult
>> to do fairly and accurately, and often times users end up misguided if they
>> pay too much attention to them :) So, given a finite number of developers
>> working on Kudu, I think we've tended to spend more time on the project
>> itself and less time focusing on "competition". I'm sure there are use
>> cases where Kudu will beat out Aerospike, and probably use cases where
>> Aerospike will beat Kudu as well.
>>
>> From my perspective, it would be great if you can share some details of
>> your workload, especially if there are some areas you're finding Kudu
>> lacking. Maybe we can spot some easy code changes we could make to improve
>> performance, or suggest a tuning variable you could change.
>>
>> -Todd
>>
>>
>>> On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>
>>>> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read. I
>>>> checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the article,
>>>> they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that impressed me was
>>>> their claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 8x for writing and
>>>> 25x for reading. Their big claim to fame is that Aerospike can write 1M
>>>> records per second with only 50 nodes. I wanted to see if this is real.
>>>>
>>>
>>> 1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well,
>>> depending on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been
>>> playing with a ~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ writes/second
>>> sustained, and bursting above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 11 columns, and
>>> with pretty old HDD-only nodes. I think newer flash-based nodes could do
>>> better.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> To answer your questions, we have a DMP with user profiles with many
>>>> attributes. We create segmentation information off of these attributes to
>>>> classify them. Then, we can target advertising appropriately for our sales
>>>> department. Much of the data processing is for applying models on all or if
>>>> not most of every profile’s attributes to find similarities (nearest
>>>> neighbor/clustering) over a large number of rows when 

Re: Performance Question

[Benjamin Kim]

ow” the team.
> 
> Thanks,
> Ben
> 
>> On Jun 15, 2016, at 12:47 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Benjamin,
>> 
>> What workload are you using for benchmarks? Using spark or something more 
>> custom? rdd or data frame or SQL, etc? Maybe you can share the schema and 
>> some queries
>> 
>> Todd
>> 
>> Todd
>> 
>> On Jun 15, 2016 8:10 AM, "Benjamin Kim" <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Hi Todd,
>> 
>> Now that Kudu 0.9.0 is out. I have done some tests. Already, I am impressed. 
>> Compared to HBase, read and write performance are better. Write performance 
>> has the greatest improvement (> 4x), while read is > 1.5x. Albeit, these are 
>> only preliminary tests. Do you know of a way to really do some conclusive 
>> tests? I want to see if I can match your results on my 50 node cluster.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Ben
>> 
>>> On May 30, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Todd,
>>> 
>>> It sounds like Kudu can possibly top or match those numbers put out by 
>>> Aerospike. Do you have any performance statistics published or any 
>>> instructions as to measure them myself as good way to test? In addition, 
>>> this will be a test using Spark, so should I wait for Kudu version 0.9.0 
>>> where support will be built in?
>>> 
>>> We don't have a lot of benchmarks published yet, especially on the write 
>>> side. I've found that thorough cross-system benchmarks are very difficult 
>>> to do fairly and accurately, and often times users end up misguided if they 
>>> pay too much attention to them :) So, given a finite number of developers 
>>> working on Kudu, I think we've tended to spend more time on the project 
>>> itself and less time focusing on "competition". I'm sure there are use 
>>> cases where Kudu will beat out Aerospike, and probably use cases where 
>>> Aerospike will beat Kudu as well.
>>> 
>>> From my perspective, it would be great if you can share some details of 
>>> your workload, especially if there are some areas you're finding Kudu 
>>> lacking. Maybe we can spot some easy code changes we could make to improve 
>>> performance, or suggest a tuning variable you could change.
>>> 
>>> -Todd
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>>>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>> 
>>>> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read. I 
>>>> checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the 
>>>> article, they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that impressed 
>>>> me was their claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 8x for 
>>>> writing and 25x for reading. Their big claim to fame is that Aerospike can 
>>>> write 1M records per second with only 50 nodes. I wanted to see if this is 
>>>> real.
>>>> 
>>>> 1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well, 
>>>> depending on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been 
>>>> playing with a ~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ writes/second 
>>>> sustained, and bursting above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 11 columns, and 
>>>> with pretty old HDD-only nodes. I think newer flash-based nodes could do 
>>>> better.
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> To answer your questions, we have a DMP with user profiles with many 
>>>> attributes. We create segmentation information off of these attributes to 
>>>> classify them. Then, we can target advertising appropriately for our sales 
>>>> department. Much of the data processing is for applying models on all or 
>>>> if not most of every profile’s attributes to find similarities (nearest 
>>>> neighbor/clustering) over a large number of rows when batch processing or 
>>>> a small subset of rows for quick online scoring. So, our use case is a 
>>>&g

Re: Performance Question

[Todd Lipcon]

It sounds like Kudu can possibly top or match those numbers put out by
>> Aerospike. Do you have any performance statistics published or any
>> instructions as to measure them myself as good way to test? In addition,
>> this will be a test using Spark, so should I wait for Kudu version 0.9.0
>> where support will be built in?
>>
>
> We don't have a lot of benchmarks published yet, especially on the write
> side. I've found that thorough cross-system benchmarks are very difficult
> to do fairly and accurately, and often times users end up misguided if they
> pay too much attention to them :) So, given a finite number of developers
> working on Kudu, I think we've tended to spend more time on the project
> itself and less time focusing on "competition". I'm sure there are use
> cases where Kudu will beat out Aerospike, and probably use cases where
> Aerospike will beat Kudu as well.
>
> From my perspective, it would be great if you can share some details of
> your workload, especially if there are some areas you're finding Kudu
> lacking. Maybe we can spot some easy code changes we could make to improve
> performance, or suggest a tuning variable you could change.
>
> -Todd
>
>
>> On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Mike,
>>>
>>> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read. I
>>> checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the article,
>>> they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that impressed me was
>>> their claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 8x for writing and
>>> 25x for reading. Their big claim to fame is that Aerospike can write 1M
>>> records per second with only 50 nodes. I wanted to see if this is real.
>>>
>>
>> 1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well,
>> depending on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been
>> playing with a ~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ writes/second
>> sustained, and bursting above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 11 columns, and
>> with pretty old HDD-only nodes. I think newer flash-based nodes could do
>> better.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> To answer your questions, we have a DMP with user profiles with many
>>> attributes. We create segmentation information off of these attributes to
>>> classify them. Then, we can target advertising appropriately for our sales
>>> department. Much of the data processing is for applying models on all or if
>>> not most of every profile’s attributes to find similarities (nearest
>>> neighbor/clustering) over a large number of rows when batch processing or a
>>> small subset of rows for quick online scoring. So, our use case is a
>>> typical advanced analytics scenario. We have tried HBase, but it doesn’t
>>> work well for these types of analytics.
>>>
>>> I read, that Aerospike in the release notes, they did do many
>>> improvements for batch and scan operations.
>>>
>>> I wonder what your thoughts are for using Kudu for this.
>>>
>>
>> Sounds like a good Kudu use case to me. I've heard great things about
>> Aerospike for the low latency random access portion, but I've also heard
>> that it's _very_ expensive, and not particularly suited to the columnar
>> scan workload. Lastly, I think the Apache license of Kudu is much more
>> appealing than the AGPL3 used by Aerospike. But, that's not really a direct
>> answer to the performance question :)
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Ben
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 27, 2016, at 6:21 PM, Mike Percy <mpe...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Have you considered whether you have a scan heavy or a random access
>>> heavy workload? Have you considered whether you always access / update a
>>> whole row vs only a partial row? Kudu is a column store so has some
>>> awesome performance characteristics when you are doing a lot of scanning of
>>> just a couple of columns.
>>>
>>> I don't know the answer to your question but if your concern is
>>> performance then I would be interested in seeing comparisons from a perf
>>> perspective on certain workloads.
>>>
>>> Finally, a year ago Aerospike did quite poorly in a Jepsen test:
>>> https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike
>>>
>>> I wonder if they have addressed any of those issues.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am just curious. How will Kudu compare with Aerospike (
>>>> http://www.aerospike.com)? I went to a Spark Roadshow and found out
>>>> about this piece of software. It appears to fit our use case perfectly
>>>> since we are an ad-tech company trying to leverage our user profiles data.
>>>> Plus, it already has a Spark connector and has a SQL-like client. The
>>>> tables can be accessed using Spark SQL DataFrames and, also, made into SQL
>>>> tables for direct use with Spark SQL ODBC/JDBC Thriftserver. I see from the
>>>> work done here http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/ that the
>>>> Spark integration is well underway and, from the looks of it lately, almost
>>>> complete. I would prefer to use Kudu since we are already a Cloudera shop,
>>>> and Kudu is easy to deploy and configure using Cloudera Manager. I also
>>>> hope that some of Aerospike’s speed optimization techniques can make it
>>>> into Kudu in the future, if they have not been already thought of or
>>>> included.
>>>>
>>>> Just some thoughts…
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Ben
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> Mike Percy
>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Todd Lipcon
>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Todd Lipcon
> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>
>
>

Re: Performance Question

[Benjamin Kim]

e a lot of benchmarks published yet, especially on the write 
>> side. I've found that thorough cross-system benchmarks are very difficult to 
>> do fairly and accurately, and often times users end up misguided if they pay 
>> too much attention to them :) So, given a finite number of developers 
>> working on Kudu, I think we've tended to spend more time on the project 
>> itself and less time focusing on "competition". I'm sure there are use cases 
>> where Kudu will beat out Aerospike, and probably use cases where Aerospike 
>> will beat Kudu as well.
>> 
>> From my perspective, it would be great if you can share some details of your 
>> workload, especially if there are some areas you're finding Kudu lacking. 
>> Maybe we can spot some easy code changes we could make to improve 
>> performance, or suggest a tuning variable you could change.
>> 
>> -Todd
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Hi Mike,
>>> 
>>> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read. I 
>>> checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the article, 
>>> they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that impressed me was 
>>> their claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 8x for writing and 
>>> 25x for reading. Their big claim to fame is that Aerospike can write 1M 
>>> records per second with only 50 nodes. I wanted to see if this is real.
>>> 
>>> 1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well, 
>>> depending on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been 
>>> playing with a ~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ writes/second 
>>> sustained, and bursting above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 11 columns, and 
>>> with pretty old HDD-only nodes. I think newer flash-based nodes could do 
>>> better.
>>>  
>>> 
>>> To answer your questions, we have a DMP with user profiles with many 
>>> attributes. We create segmentation information off of these attributes to 
>>> classify them. Then, we can target advertising appropriately for our sales 
>>> department. Much of the data processing is for applying models on all or if 
>>> not most of every profile’s attributes to find similarities (nearest 
>>> neighbor/clustering) over a large number of rows when batch processing or a 
>>> small subset of rows for quick online scoring. So, our use case is a 
>>> typical advanced analytics scenario. We have tried HBase, but it doesn’t 
>>> work well for these types of analytics.
>>> 
>>> I read, that Aerospike in the release notes, they did do many improvements 
>>> for batch and scan operations.
>>> 
>>> I wonder what your thoughts are for using Kudu for this.
>>> 
>>> Sounds like a good Kudu use case to me. I've heard great things about 
>>> Aerospike for the low latency random access portion, but I've also heard 
>>> that it's _very_ expensive, and not particularly suited to the columnar 
>>> scan workload. Lastly, I think the Apache license of Kudu is much more 
>>> appealing than the AGPL3 used by Aerospike. But, that's not really a direct 
>>> answer to the performance question :)
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Ben
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On May 27, 2016, at 6:21 PM, Mike Percy <mpe...@cloudera.com 
>>>> <mailto:mpe...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Have you considered whether you have a scan heavy or a random access heavy 
>>>> workload? Have you considered whether you always access / update a whole 
>>>> row vs only a partial row? Kudu is a column store so has some awesome 
>>>> performance characteristics when you are doing a lot of scanning of just a 
>>>> couple of columns.
>>>> 
>>>> I don't know the answer to your question but if your concern is 
>>>> performance then I would be interested in seeing comparisons from a perf 
>>>> perspective on certain workloads.
>>>> 
>>>> Finally, a year ago Aerospike did quite poorly in a Jepsen test: 
>>>> https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike 
>>>> <https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike>
>>>> 
>>>> I wonder if they have addressed any of those issues.
>>>> 
>>>> Mike
>>>> 
>>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>>>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> I am just curious. How will Kudu compare with Aerospike 
>>>> (http://www.aerospike.com <http://www.aerospike.com/>)? I went to a Spark 
>>>> Roadshow and found out about this piece of software. It appears to fit our 
>>>> use case perfectly since we are an ad-tech company trying to leverage our 
>>>> user profiles data. Plus, it already has a Spark connector and has a 
>>>> SQL-like client. The tables can be accessed using Spark SQL DataFrames 
>>>> and, also, made into SQL tables for direct use with Spark SQL ODBC/JDBC 
>>>> Thriftserver. I see from the work done here 
>>>> http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/ 
>>>> <http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/> that the Spark integration is 
>>>> well underway and, from the looks of it lately, almost complete. I would 
>>>> prefer to use Kudu since we are already a Cloudera shop, and Kudu is easy 
>>>> to deploy and configure using Cloudera Manager. I also hope that some of 
>>>> Aerospike’s speed optimization techniques can make it into Kudu in the 
>>>> future, if they have not been already thought of or included.
>>>> 
>>>> Just some thoughts…
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Ben
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> --
>>>> Mike Percy
>>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Todd Lipcon
>>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Todd Lipcon
>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
> 

Re: Performance Question

[Todd Lipcon]

Hi Benjamin,

What workload are you using for benchmarks? Using spark or something more
custom? rdd or data frame or SQL, etc? Maybe you can share the schema and
some queries

Todd

Todd
On Jun 15, 2016 8:10 AM, "Benjamin Kim" <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Todd,
>
> Now that Kudu 0.9.0 is out. I have done some tests. Already, I am
> impressed. Compared to HBase, read and write performance are better. Write
> performance has the greatest improvement (> 4x), while read is > 1.5x.
> Albeit, these are only preliminary tests. Do you know of a way to really do
> some conclusive tests? I want to see if I can match your results on my 50
> node cluster.
>
> Thanks,
> Ben
>
> On May 30, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Todd,
>>
>> It sounds like Kudu can possibly top or match those numbers put out by
>> Aerospike. Do you have any performance statistics published or any
>> instructions as to measure them myself as good way to test? In addition,
>> this will be a test using Spark, so should I wait for Kudu version 0.9.0
>> where support will be built in?
>>
>
> We don't have a lot of benchmarks published yet, especially on the write
> side. I've found that thorough cross-system benchmarks are very difficult
> to do fairly and accurately, and often times users end up misguided if they
> pay too much attention to them :) So, given a finite number of developers
> working on Kudu, I think we've tended to spend more time on the project
> itself and less time focusing on "competition". I'm sure there are use
> cases where Kudu will beat out Aerospike, and probably use cases where
> Aerospike will beat Kudu as well.
>
> From my perspective, it would be great if you can share some details of
> your workload, especially if there are some areas you're finding Kudu
> lacking. Maybe we can spot some easy code changes we could make to improve
> performance, or suggest a tuning variable you could change.
>
> -Todd
>
>
>> On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Mike,
>>>
>>> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read. I
>>> checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the article,
>>> they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that impressed me was
>>> their claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 8x for writing and
>>> 25x for reading. Their big claim to fame is that Aerospike can write 1M
>>> records per second with only 50 nodes. I wanted to see if this is real.
>>>
>>
>> 1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well,
>> depending on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been
>> playing with a ~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ writes/second
>> sustained, and bursting above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 11 columns, and
>> with pretty old HDD-only nodes. I think newer flash-based nodes could do
>> better.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> To answer your questions, we have a DMP with user profiles with many
>>> attributes. We create segmentation information off of these attributes to
>>> classify them. Then, we can target advertising appropriately for our sales
>>> department. Much of the data processing is for applying models on all or if
>>> not most of every profile’s attributes to find similarities (nearest
>>> neighbor/clustering) over a large number of rows when batch processing or a
>>> small subset of rows for quick online scoring. So, our use case is a
>>> typical advanced analytics scenario. We have tried HBase, but it doesn’t
>>> work well for these types of analytics.
>>>
>>> I read, that Aerospike in the release notes, they did do many
>>> improvements for batch and scan operations.
>>>
>>> I wonder what your thoughts are for using Kudu for this.
>>>
>>
>> Sounds like a good Kudu use case to me. I've heard great things about
>> Aerospike for the low latency random access portion, but I've also heard
>> that it's _very_ expensive, and not particularly suited to the columnar
>> scan workload. Lastly, I think the Apache license of Kudu is much more
>> appealing than the AGPL3 used by Aerospike. But, that's not really a direct
>> answer to the performance question :)
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Ben
>>>
>>>
>>> On

Re: Performance Question

[Benjamin Kim]

Hi Todd,

Now that Kudu 0.9.0 is out. I have done some tests. Already, I am impressed. 
Compared to HBase, read and write performance are better. Write performance has 
the greatest improvement (> 4x), while read is > 1.5x. Albeit, these are only 
preliminary tests. Do you know of a way to really do some conclusive tests? I 
want to see if I can match your results on my 50 node cluster.

Thanks,
Ben

> On May 30, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
> 
> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Todd,
> 
> It sounds like Kudu can possibly top or match those numbers put out by 
> Aerospike. Do you have any performance statistics published or any 
> instructions as to measure them myself as good way to test? In addition, this 
> will be a test using Spark, so should I wait for Kudu version 0.9.0 where 
> support will be built in?
> 
> We don't have a lot of benchmarks published yet, especially on the write 
> side. I've found that thorough cross-system benchmarks are very difficult to 
> do fairly and accurately, and often times users end up misguided if they pay 
> too much attention to them :) So, given a finite number of developers working 
> on Kudu, I think we've tended to spend more time on the project itself and 
> less time focusing on "competition". I'm sure there are use cases where Kudu 
> will beat out Aerospike, and probably use cases where Aerospike will beat 
> Kudu as well.
> 
> From my perspective, it would be great if you can share some details of your 
> workload, especially if there are some areas you're finding Kudu lacking. 
> Maybe we can spot some easy code changes we could make to improve 
> performance, or suggest a tuning variable you could change.
> 
> -Todd
> 
> 
>> On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com 
>> <mailto:t...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Hi Mike,
>> 
>> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read. I 
>> checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the article, 
>> they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that impressed me was 
>> their claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 8x for writing and 25x 
>> for reading. Their big claim to fame is that Aerospike can write 1M records 
>> per second with only 50 nodes. I wanted to see if this is real.
>> 
>> 1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well, 
>> depending on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been 
>> playing with a ~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ writes/second 
>> sustained, and bursting above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 11 columns, and 
>> with pretty old HDD-only nodes. I think newer flash-based nodes could do 
>> better.
>>  
>> 
>> To answer your questions, we have a DMP with user profiles with many 
>> attributes. We create segmentation information off of these attributes to 
>> classify them. Then, we can target advertising appropriately for our sales 
>> department. Much of the data processing is for applying models on all or if 
>> not most of every profile’s attributes to find similarities (nearest 
>> neighbor/clustering) over a large number of rows when batch processing or a 
>> small subset of rows for quick online scoring. So, our use case is a typical 
>> advanced analytics scenario. We have tried HBase, but it doesn’t work well 
>> for these types of analytics.
>> 
>> I read, that Aerospike in the release notes, they did do many improvements 
>> for batch and scan operations.
>> 
>> I wonder what your thoughts are for using Kudu for this.
>> 
>> Sounds like a good Kudu use case to me. I've heard great things about 
>> Aerospike for the low latency random access portion, but I've also heard 
>> that it's _very_ expensive, and not particularly suited to the columnar scan 
>> workload. Lastly, I think the Apache license of Kudu is much more appealing 
>> than the AGPL3 used by Aerospike. But, that's not really a direct answer to 
>> the performance question :)
>>  
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Ben
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 27, 2016, at 6:21 PM, Mike Percy <mpe...@cloudera.com 
>>> <mailto:mpe...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Have you considered whether you have a scan heavy or a random access heavy 
>>> workload? Have you considered whether you always access / update a whole 
>>> row vs only a partial r

Re: Performance Question

[Benjamin Kim]

Todd,

It sounds like Kudu can possibly top or match those numbers put out by 
Aerospike. Do you have any performance statistics published or any instructions 
as to measure them myself as good way to test? In addition, this will be a test 
using Spark, so should I wait for Kudu version 0.9.0 where support will be 
built in?

Thanks,
Ben


> On May 27, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Todd Lipcon <t...@cloudera.com> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Hi Mike,
> 
> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read. I 
> checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the article, 
> they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that impressed me was their 
> claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 8x for writing and 25x for 
> reading. Their big claim to fame is that Aerospike can write 1M records per 
> second with only 50 nodes. I wanted to see if this is real.
> 
> 1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well, depending 
> on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been playing with a 
> ~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ writes/second sustained, and bursting 
> above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 11 columns, and with pretty old HDD-only 
> nodes. I think newer flash-based nodes could do better.
>  
> 
> To answer your questions, we have a DMP with user profiles with many 
> attributes. We create segmentation information off of these attributes to 
> classify them. Then, we can target advertising appropriately for our sales 
> department. Much of the data processing is for applying models on all or if 
> not most of every profile’s attributes to find similarities (nearest 
> neighbor/clustering) over a large number of rows when batch processing or a 
> small subset of rows for quick online scoring. So, our use case is a typical 
> advanced analytics scenario. We have tried HBase, but it doesn’t work well 
> for these types of analytics.
> 
> I read, that Aerospike in the release notes, they did do many improvements 
> for batch and scan operations.
> 
> I wonder what your thoughts are for using Kudu for this.
> 
> Sounds like a good Kudu use case to me. I've heard great things about 
> Aerospike for the low latency random access portion, but I've also heard that 
> it's _very_ expensive, and not particularly suited to the columnar scan 
> workload. Lastly, I think the Apache license of Kudu is much more appealing 
> than the AGPL3 used by Aerospike. But, that's not really a direct answer to 
> the performance question :)
>  
> 
> Thanks,
> Ben
> 
> 
>> On May 27, 2016, at 6:21 PM, Mike Percy <mpe...@cloudera.com 
>> <mailto:mpe...@cloudera.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Have you considered whether you have a scan heavy or a random access heavy 
>> workload? Have you considered whether you always access / update a whole row 
>> vs only a partial row? Kudu is a column store so has some awesome 
>> performance characteristics when you are doing a lot of scanning of just a 
>> couple of columns.
>> 
>> I don't know the answer to your question but if your concern is performance 
>> then I would be interested in seeing comparisons from a perf perspective on 
>> certain workloads.
>> 
>> Finally, a year ago Aerospike did quite poorly in a Jepsen test: 
>> https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike 
>> <https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike>
>> 
>> I wonder if they have addressed any of those issues.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> On Friday, May 27, 2016, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com 
>> <mailto:bbuil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> I am just curious. How will Kudu compare with Aerospike 
>> (http://www.aerospike.com <http://www.aerospike.com/>)? I went to a Spark 
>> Roadshow and found out about this piece of software. It appears to fit our 
>> use case perfectly since we are an ad-tech company trying to leverage our 
>> user profiles data. Plus, it already has a Spark connector and has a 
>> SQL-like client. The tables can be accessed using Spark SQL DataFrames and, 
>> also, made into SQL tables for direct use with Spark SQL ODBC/JDBC 
>> Thriftserver. I see from the work done here 
>> http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/ 
>> <http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/> that the Spark integration is 
>> well underway and, from the looks of it lately, almost complete. I would 
>> prefer to use Kudu since we are already a Cloudera shop, and Kudu is easy to 
>> deploy and configure using Cloudera Manager. I also hope that some of 
>> Aerospike’s speed optimization techniques can make it into Kudu in the 
>> future, if they have not been already thought of or included.
>> 
>> Just some thoughts…
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Ben
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> --
>> Mike Percy
>> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Todd Lipcon
> Software Engineer, Cloudera

Re: Performance Question

[Todd Lipcon]

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
> First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read. I
> checked that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the article,
> they are evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that impressed me was
> their claim that they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 8x for writing and
> 25x for reading. Their big claim to fame is that Aerospike can write 1M
> records per second with only 50 nodes. I wanted to see if this is real.
>

1M records per second on 50 nodes is pretty doable by Kudu as well,
depending on the size of your records and the insertion order. I've been
playing with a ~70 node cluster recently and seen 1M+ writes/second
sustained, and bursting above 4M. These are 1KB rows with 11 columns, and
with pretty old HDD-only nodes. I think newer flash-based nodes could do
better.


>
> To answer your questions, we have a DMP with user profiles with many
> attributes. We create segmentation information off of these attributes to
> classify them. Then, we can target advertising appropriately for our sales
> department. Much of the data processing is for applying models on all or if
> not most of every profile’s attributes to find similarities (nearest
> neighbor/clustering) over a large number of rows when batch processing or a
> small subset of rows for quick online scoring. So, our use case is a
> typical advanced analytics scenario. We have tried HBase, but it doesn’t
> work well for these types of analytics.
>
> I read, that Aerospike in the release notes, they did do many improvements
> for batch and scan operations.
>
> I wonder what your thoughts are for using Kudu for this.
>

Sounds like a good Kudu use case to me. I've heard great things about
Aerospike for the low latency random access portion, but I've also heard
that it's _very_ expensive, and not particularly suited to the columnar
scan workload. Lastly, I think the Apache license of Kudu is much more
appealing than the AGPL3 used by Aerospike. But, that's not really a direct
answer to the performance question :)


>
> Thanks,
> Ben
>
>
> On May 27, 2016, at 6:21 PM, Mike Percy <mpe...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>
> Have you considered whether you have a scan heavy or a random access heavy
> workload? Have you considered whether you always access / update a whole
> row vs only a partial row? Kudu is a column store so has some
> awesome performance characteristics when you are doing a lot of scanning of
> just a couple of columns.
>
> I don't know the answer to your question but if your concern is
> performance then I would be interested in seeing comparisons from a perf
> perspective on certain workloads.
>
> Finally, a year ago Aerospike did quite poorly in a Jepsen test:
> https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike
>
> I wonder if they have addressed any of those issues.
>
> Mike
>
> On Friday, May 27, 2016, Benjamin Kim <bbuil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I am just curious. How will Kudu compare with Aerospike (
>> http://www.aerospike.com)? I went to a Spark Roadshow and found out
>> about this piece of software. It appears to fit our use case perfectly
>> since we are an ad-tech company trying to leverage our user profiles data.
>> Plus, it already has a Spark connector and has a SQL-like client. The
>> tables can be accessed using Spark SQL DataFrames and, also, made into SQL
>> tables for direct use with Spark SQL ODBC/JDBC Thriftserver. I see from the
>> work done here http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/ that the Spark
>> integration is well underway and, from the looks of it lately, almost
>> complete. I would prefer to use Kudu since we are already a Cloudera shop,
>> and Kudu is easy to deploy and configure using Cloudera Manager. I also
>> hope that some of Aerospike’s speed optimization techniques can make it
>> into Kudu in the future, if they have not been already thought of or
>> included.
>>
>> Just some thoughts…
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ben
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Mike Percy
> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>
>
>
>


-- 
Todd Lipcon
Software Engineer, Cloudera

Re: Performance Question

[Benjamin Kim]

Hi Mike,

First of all, thanks for the link. It looks like an interesting read. I checked 
that Aerospike is currently at version 3.8.2.3, and in the article, they are 
evaluating version 3.5.4. The main thing that impressed me was their claim that 
they can beat Cassandra and HBase by 8x for writing and 25x for reading. Their 
big claim to fame is that Aerospike can write 1M records per second with only 
50 nodes. I wanted to see if this is real.

To answer your questions, we have a DMP with user profiles with many 
attributes. We create segmentation information off of these attributes to 
classify them. Then, we can target advertising appropriately for our sales 
department. Much of the data processing is for applying models on all or if not 
most of every profile’s attributes to find similarities (nearest 
neighbor/clustering) over a large number of rows when batch processing or a 
small subset of rows for quick online scoring. So, our use case is a typical 
advanced analytics scenario. We have tried HBase, but it doesn’t work well for 
these types of analytics.

I read, that Aerospike in the release notes, they did do many improvements for 
batch and scan operations.

I wonder what your thoughts are for using Kudu for this.

Thanks,
Ben


> On May 27, 2016, at 6:21 PM, Mike Percy  wrote:
> 
> Have you considered whether you have a scan heavy or a random access heavy 
> workload? Have you considered whether you always access / update a whole row 
> vs only a partial row? Kudu is a column store so has some awesome performance 
> characteristics when you are doing a lot of scanning of just a couple of 
> columns.
> 
> I don't know the answer to your question but if your concern is performance 
> then I would be interested in seeing comparisons from a perf perspective on 
> certain workloads.
> 
> Finally, a year ago Aerospike did quite poorly in a Jepsen test: 
> https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike 
> 
> 
> I wonder if they have addressed any of those issues.
> 
> Mike
> 
> On Friday, May 27, 2016, Benjamin Kim  > wrote:
> I am just curious. How will Kudu compare with Aerospike 
> (http://www.aerospike.com )? I went to a Spark 
> Roadshow and found out about this piece of software. It appears to fit our 
> use case perfectly since we are an ad-tech company trying to leverage our 
> user profiles data. Plus, it already has a Spark connector and has a SQL-like 
> client. The tables can be accessed using Spark SQL DataFrames and, also, made 
> into SQL tables for direct use with Spark SQL ODBC/JDBC Thriftserver. I see 
> from the work done here http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/ 
>  that the Spark integration is 
> well underway and, from the looks of it lately, almost complete. I would 
> prefer to use Kudu since we are already a Cloudera shop, and Kudu is easy to 
> deploy and configure using Cloudera Manager. I also hope that some of 
> Aerospike’s speed optimization techniques can make it into Kudu in the 
> future, if they have not been already thought of or included.
> 
> Just some thoughts…
> 
> Cheers,
> Ben
> 
> 
> -- 
> --
> Mike Percy
> Software Engineer, Cloudera
> 
> 

Re: Performance Question

[Mike Percy]

Have you considered whether you have a scan heavy or a random access heavy
workload? Have you considered whether you always access / update a whole
row vs only a partial row? Kudu is a column store so has some
awesome performance characteristics when you are doing a lot of scanning of
just a couple of columns.

I don't know the answer to your question but if your concern is performance
then I would be interested in seeing comparisons from a perf perspective on
certain workloads.

Finally, a year ago Aerospike did quite poorly in a Jepsen test:
https://aphyr.com/posts/324-jepsen-aerospike

I wonder if they have addressed any of those issues.

Mike

On Friday, May 27, 2016, Benjamin Kim  wrote:

> I am just curious. How will Kudu compare with Aerospike (
> http://www.aerospike.com)? I went to a Spark Roadshow and found out about
> this piece of software. It appears to fit our use case perfectly since we
> are an ad-tech company trying to leverage our user profiles data. Plus, it
> already has a Spark connector and has a SQL-like client. The tables can be
> accessed using Spark SQL DataFrames and, also, made into SQL tables for
> direct use with Spark SQL ODBC/JDBC Thriftserver. I see from the work done
> here http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/ that the Spark integration
> is well underway and, from the looks of it lately, almost complete. I would
> prefer to use Kudu since we are already a Cloudera shop, and Kudu is easy
> to deploy and configure using Cloudera Manager. I also hope that some of
> Aerospike’s speed optimization techniques can make it into Kudu in the
> future, if they have not been already thought of or included.
>
> Just some thoughts…
>
> Cheers,
> Ben



-- 
--
Mike Percy
Software Engineer, Cloudera

Performance Question

[Benjamin Kim]

I am just curious. How will Kudu compare with Aerospike 
(http://www.aerospike.com)? I went to a Spark Roadshow and found out about this 
piece of software. It appears to fit our use case perfectly since we are an 
ad-tech company trying to leverage our user profiles data. Plus, it already has 
a Spark connector and has a SQL-like client. The tables can be accessed using 
Spark SQL DataFrames and, also, made into SQL tables for direct use with Spark 
SQL ODBC/JDBC Thriftserver. I see from the work done here 
http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2992/ that the Spark integration is well 
underway and, from the looks of it lately, almost complete. I would prefer to 
use Kudu since we are already a Cloudera shop, and Kudu is easy to deploy and 
configure using Cloudera Manager. I also hope that some of Aerospike’s speed 
optimization techniques can make it into Kudu in the future, if they have not 
been already thought of or included.

Just some thoughts…

Cheers,
Ben