[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[Andreas Säger]

Walther Koehler-4 wrote
> My doctors office uses a dBase based system for administration, keeping 
> patient records and so on. It has integrated LO for many purposes, i.e. 
> medical letters. As I was told, reading those dbf files using scripts is
> easy 
> (dbf_dump), modifying dbf files from outside the program however tedious, 
> they use LO base for that purpose. Unfortunately, the SQL commands for
> dBase 
> are limited.

I do a nightly second backup of the patient.dbf and have a Base document
connected to this backup file so this connection does not interfere with the
business application.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[Girvin Herr]

dBase files are plain text, but they have a specific format, which 
varies with version (feature add-ins).  I did some research on the file 
format when I was trying to decide how I wanted to approach resurrecting 
my files. Another option is to use the old dBase 1.x under dosemu under 
Linux.  Actually, that may be the easiest way to do it, but maybe not 
the long-lasting correct way.


Girvin


On 08/04/2016 09:57 PM, Walther Koehler wrote:

My doctors office uses a dBase based system for administration, keeping
patient records and so on. It has integrated LO for many purposes, i.e.
medical letters. As I was told, reading those dbf files using scripts is easy
(dbf_dump), modifying dbf files from outside the program however tedious,
they use LO base for that purpose. Unfortunately, the SQL commands for dBase
are limited.

Walther




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[Walther Koehler]

My doctors office uses a dBase based system for administration, keeping 
patient records and so on. It has integrated LO for many purposes, i.e. 
medical letters. As I was told, reading those dbf files using scripts is easy 
(dbf_dump), modifying dbf files from outside the program however tedious, 
they use LO base for that purpose. Unfortunately, the SQL commands for dBase 
are limited.

Walther

 etc.Am Donnerstag, 4. August 2016 schrieb Girvin Herr:
> On 08/04/2016 09:16 AM, toki wrote:
> > On 02/08/2016 16:39, Ken Springer wrote:
> >>> Now that you mentioned dBase, you may, or may not, be aware that LO has
> >>> a dBase option.  But a limitation to it that I found is that older
> >>
> >> I didn't know this, but must admit dBase is probably not the best
> >> answer.
> >
> > For most individuals, dBase3 is adequate. Perhaps a little slow, but
> > with current hardware, not spectacularly so. However, the major
> > stumbling block is that there is even less LibO documentation for it,
> > than there is for Base.
> >
> > jonathon
>
> I used dBase in the 80s and I must assume that since it still seems to
> have a demand, that users are still out there and happy with it.  It did
> have some nice features, such as the programming capability, which is
> why I tried to import my files into LO rather than reinvent the wheel.
> I suspect most of the users are "on the other side of the pond", since I
> rarely hear of dBase users here in the US.  Then again, Fortran is still
> active too.  It takes a long time for that flywheel to coast to a stop.
>
> Girvin



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[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[Ken Springer]

On 8/4/16 3:56 PM, Girvin Herr wrote:

On 08/04/2016 09:16 AM, toki wrote:

On 02/08/2016 16:39, Ken Springer wrote:

Now that you mentioned dBase, you may, or may not, be aware that LO has
a dBase option.  But a limitation to it that I found is that older

I didn't know this, but must admit dBase is probably not the best answer.

For most individuals, dBase3 is adequate. Perhaps a little slow, but
with current hardware, not spectacularly so. However, the major
stumbling block is that there is even less LibO documentation for it,
than there is for Base.

jonathon



I used dBase in the 80s and I must assume that since it still seems to
have a demand, that users are still out there and happy with it.  It did
have some nice features, such as the programming capability, which is
why I tried to import my files into LO rather than reinvent the wheel.
I suspect most of the users are "on the other side of the pond", since I
rarely hear of dBase users here in the US.  Then again, Fortran is still
active too.  It takes a long time for that flywheel to coast to a stop.

Girvin


dBase is still available, even an updated DOS version.

http://www.dbase.com/


--
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Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 44.0
Thunderbird 38.0.1
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
 and it's gone!"


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[Girvin Herr]

On 08/04/2016 09:16 AM, toki wrote:

On 02/08/2016 16:39, Ken Springer wrote:

Now that you mentioned dBase, you may, or may not, be aware that LO has
a dBase option.  But a limitation to it that I found is that older

I didn't know this, but must admit dBase is probably not the best answer.

For most individuals, dBase3 is adequate. Perhaps a little slow, but
with current hardware, not spectacularly so. However, the major
stumbling block is that there is even less LibO documentation for it,
than there is for Base.

jonathon


I used dBase in the 80s and I must assume that since it still seems to 
have a demand, that users are still out there and happy with it.  It did 
have some nice features, such as the programming capability, which is 
why I tried to import my files into LO rather than reinvent the wheel.  
I suspect most of the users are "on the other side of the pond", since I 
rarely hear of dBase users here in the US.  Then again, Fortran is still 
active too.  It takes a long time for that flywheel to coast to a stop.


Girvin



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[toki]

On 02/08/2016 16:39, Ken Springer wrote:
>> Now that you mentioned dBase, you may, or may not, be aware that LO has
>> a dBase option.  But a limitation to it that I found is that older

> I didn't know this, but must admit dBase is probably not the best answer.

For most individuals, dBase3 is adequate. Perhaps a little slow, but
with current hardware, not spectacularly so. However, the major
stumbling block is that there is even less LibO documentation for it,
than there is for Base.

jonathon


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[Heinrich Stoellinger]

Hello,
I agree full-heartedly with Alex, but then I have been working with relational 
DBs
ever since my days at IBM (DB2), where I specialised on databases for a while. 
In fact
I happened to get to know one of the fathers of that technology - Chris Date. I 
have
been using OO and LO with a MySQL-backend for at least 10 years since switching 
from
Lotus (Dbase-based). Except for a couple of snags with the MySQL-connectors 
(native,
Java and ODBC) I have never had any problems worth mentioning, and - of course 
- I do
back up my DB. But then, I probably am not the average "end-user"-oriented 
bloke, even
though I would not call myself a DB-specialist any more. I use LO and MySQL for 
the
administrative side of a wind band, working "natively" with the underlying 
tables and
using a number of views based on joined tables for reporting. Using Drupal as 
the framework
for the homepage of the band (www.rainermusik.at) I also have integrated some 
of those
MySQL-views with Drupal.
I never really went into using LO-forms or Basic macros because I feel that one 
should take
the effort to use a framework such as Symfony for building more involved 
applications,
using an object-oriented approach, with something like Doctrine as a link 
between the
objects/methods of the application and the MySQL DB.
Regards from sunny Salzburg
Heinz


On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 12:15:19 +0200, Alexander Thurgood 
 wrote:


Le 02/08/2016 à 00:23, Ian Whitfield a écrit :

Hi Ian,




*Re: The LO Base discussion* - just my "Penny's Worth"!!!




The only way I got any (sort of results) was by using MySQL as the
backend but it took a couple of months to get it working and after a few
months even that crashed on me. I recently had to re-build my computer
after a hardware failure and my OpSys upgraded to 64bit and since then I
can not even get the MySQL linking in LO Base to even start!!



It it is fairly rare for people to suffer from catastrophic failures and
data loss using mysql - most of the time, it is usually possible to
salvage most, if not all of one's data providing one takes an interest
in the manuals on how to administer such a database server (and there
are a plethora of them, not least Oracle's own documentation).



So if you are happy to keep lots and lots of backups, and spend lots and
lots of time re-building everything at almost monthly intervals - and by
re-building I mean the Database Tables, redesign all your Forms and
set-up all your Queries and Reports from scratch - then go with it,
otherwise give it a miss.



It is also not strictly necessary to keep backups of the mysql database,
although it is indeed a recommended practice. Again, the documentation
is replete on how to do this safely.

From the interaction I've had with you on and off the list, I would say
that you have been unfortunate with regard to some of your expectations,
in that you did not wish to, or failed to, understand what it meant to
have a database server, and didn't wish to spend time understanding how
it worked in case things did go pear-shaped. I can understand this from
a user perspective, and in that case, choosing mysql as your backend
database engine was probably not a good idea, but as you found out for
yourself, neither was the embedded hsqldb.

My own experience with mysql databases has been rock solid in terms of
data integrity now for more than 10 years, including various different
types, from stock management, IP rights management, accounting, etc,
although I will admit that interaction with StarOffice, OpenOffice.org
and LibreOffice has caused some issues, but this mostly lies with
limitations or bugs within those programs and not mysql itself (barring
a few connector driver problems).

Fact of the matter is that databases when used with LO, embedded or not,
probably require more work than most "Access-users" are willing to put
in. There is no "simple", "out-of-the-box" solution for such users when
attempting to switch to LO, everything will be a compromise of sorts, be
it form design, reporting, stability, multi-user access, etc.

LOBase was always designed with the eye of a database administrator in
mind, and the attempted switch to a user-centric orientation just didn't
quite happen (for various reasons within Sun, and then Oracle). However,
what we have got is not bad as things go, providing that one can accept
its limitations (or alter one's work flow to work around them).


Alex







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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[Bruce Hohl]

Base and some of its limitations (including enbedded HSQLDB) are well
described here:
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/FAQ_(Base)

The last two times I needed a multi user database accessible over the web I
went with a LAMP approach.  The *upfront* set up and learning curve was
higher but *less* time is required over the life of the project
(development & maintenance) as these tools have exceptional stability and
performance, have very few bugs, excellent documentation and require no
client side maintenance.  AND, it's far more rewarding developing the
application versus fighting the bugs and limitations of your tools ... as
often happens when using Access, Base and their like (been there, done
doing that).


On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 6:15 AM, Alexander Thurgood 
wrote:

> Le 02/08/2016 à 00:23, Ian Whitfield a écrit :
>
> Hi Ian,
>
>
> >
> > *Re: The LO Base discussion* - just my "Penny's Worth"!!!
> >
>
> > The only way I got any (sort of results) was by using MySQL as the
> > backend but it took a couple of months to get it working and after a few
> > months even that crashed on me. I recently had to re-build my computer
> > after a hardware failure and my OpSys upgraded to 64bit and since then I
> > can not even get the MySQL linking in LO Base to even start!!
> >
>
> It it is fairly rare for people to suffer from catastrophic failures and
> data loss using mysql - most of the time, it is usually possible to
> salvage most, if not all of one's data providing one takes an interest
> in the manuals on how to administer such a database server (and there
> are a plethora of them, not least Oracle's own documentation).
>
>
> > So if you are happy to keep lots and lots of backups, and spend lots and
> > lots of time re-building everything at almost monthly intervals - and by
> > re-building I mean the Database Tables, redesign all your Forms and
> > set-up all your Queries and Reports from scratch - then go with it,
> > otherwise give it a miss.
> >
>
> It is also not strictly necessary to keep backups of the mysql database,
> although it is indeed a recommended practice. Again, the documentation
> is replete on how to do this safely.
>
> From the interaction I've had with you on and off the list, I would say
> that you have been unfortunate with regard to some of your expectations,
> in that you did not wish to, or failed to, understand what it meant to
> have a database server, and didn't wish to spend time understanding how
> it worked in case things did go pear-shaped. I can understand this from
> a user perspective, and in that case, choosing mysql as your backend
> database engine was probably not a good idea, but as you found out for
> yourself, neither was the embedded hsqldb.
>
> My own experience with mysql databases has been rock solid in terms of
> data integrity now for more than 10 years, including various different
> types, from stock management, IP rights management, accounting, etc,
> although I will admit that interaction with StarOffice, OpenOffice.org
> and LibreOffice has caused some issues, but this mostly lies with
> limitations or bugs within those programs and not mysql itself (barring
> a few connector driver problems).
>
> Fact of the matter is that databases when used with LO, embedded or not,
> probably require more work than most "Access-users" are willing to put
> in. There is no "simple", "out-of-the-box" solution for such users when
> attempting to switch to LO, everything will be a compromise of sorts, be
> it form design, reporting, stability, multi-user access, etc.
>
> LOBase was always designed with the eye of a database administrator in
> mind, and the attempted switch to a user-centric orientation just didn't
> quite happen (for various reasons within Sun, and then Oracle). However,
> what we have got is not bad as things go, providing that one can accept
> its limitations (or alter one's work flow to work around them).
>
>
> Alex
>
>
>
>
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> Problems?
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[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[Alexander Thurgood]

Le 02/08/2016 à 00:23, Ian Whitfield a écrit :

Hi Ian,


> 
> *Re: The LO Base discussion* - just my "Penny's Worth"!!!
> 

> The only way I got any (sort of results) was by using MySQL as the
> backend but it took a couple of months to get it working and after a few
> months even that crashed on me. I recently had to re-build my computer
> after a hardware failure and my OpSys upgraded to 64bit and since then I
> can not even get the MySQL linking in LO Base to even start!!
> 

It it is fairly rare for people to suffer from catastrophic failures and
data loss using mysql - most of the time, it is usually possible to
salvage most, if not all of one's data providing one takes an interest
in the manuals on how to administer such a database server (and there
are a plethora of them, not least Oracle's own documentation).


> So if you are happy to keep lots and lots of backups, and spend lots and
> lots of time re-building everything at almost monthly intervals - and by
> re-building I mean the Database Tables, redesign all your Forms and
> set-up all your Queries and Reports from scratch - then go with it,
> otherwise give it a miss.
> 

It is also not strictly necessary to keep backups of the mysql database,
although it is indeed a recommended practice. Again, the documentation
is replete on how to do this safely.

From the interaction I've had with you on and off the list, I would say
that you have been unfortunate with regard to some of your expectations,
in that you did not wish to, or failed to, understand what it meant to
have a database server, and didn't wish to spend time understanding how
it worked in case things did go pear-shaped. I can understand this from
a user perspective, and in that case, choosing mysql as your backend
database engine was probably not a good idea, but as you found out for
yourself, neither was the embedded hsqldb.

My own experience with mysql databases has been rock solid in terms of
data integrity now for more than 10 years, including various different
types, from stock management, IP rights management, accounting, etc,
although I will admit that interaction with StarOffice, OpenOffice.org
and LibreOffice has caused some issues, but this mostly lies with
limitations or bugs within those programs and not mysql itself (barring
a few connector driver problems).

Fact of the matter is that databases when used with LO, embedded or not,
probably require more work than most "Access-users" are willing to put
in. There is no "simple", "out-of-the-box" solution for such users when
attempting to switch to LO, everything will be a compromise of sorts, be
it form design, reporting, stability, multi-user access, etc.

LOBase was always designed with the eye of a database administrator in
mind, and the attempted switch to a user-centric orientation just didn't
quite happen (for various reasons within Sun, and then Oracle). However,
what we have got is not bad as things go, providing that one can accept
its limitations (or alter one's work flow to work around them).


Alex




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[jorge]

Hi all:

For collections, there are two programs on GNU /  Linux Ubuntu and
usually on others Distributions:

1) GCStar

2) Tellico

Both have multiple options to import and export information. By the way,
my little knowledge can't permit to me to share with you what kind of
data base use them or if when have a lot data, they will come slowly,
but this are my 1 cent to this topic.

Regards,

Jorge Rodríguez



El mar, 02-08-2016 a las 10:39 -0600, Ken Springer escribió: 
> On 8/1/16 12:13 PM, Girvin Herr wrote:
> > On 07/31/2016 07:36 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
> > 
> >> I understand the concept of Front End/Back End, but never have dealt
> >> with it.  Nor have I ever used MySQL, Mariadb, or others.  Access and
> >> a bit of dBase is all I've ever used, and in general, even then that's
> >> more power than I've ever needed.
> >>
> > Ken,
> > Actually, IIRC, Access has both a client and server built in.  The user
> > isn't normally aware of it.  In my experience with Access 1.1, the
> > server is called the "Jet" server.  Today's Access may no longer use the
> > Jet server, but I am sure something like it is still in there
> > somewhere.  I must admit the Access bundled concept is addictive.  As a
> > newbie to databases back in the 90s, I liked it and it was a shock and a
> > learning experience to wean myself off of it and go with the industry
> > standard forms of client/server architecture and the SQL language.
> 
> You've just mentioned the big "roadblock" for the average person to make 
> use of databases.  They are too complex to learn and use for most 
> people.  That's where the "all-in-one" solution is a better answer. 
> It's a lot easier for the average user to wrap their heads around and 
> then use it.
> 
> What happens?  The average person fills up spreadsheet after spreadsheet 
> of flat file data.  My brother-in-law is a perfect example.  Years ago, 
> he was putting their music collection into a spreadsheet.  When the 
> sheet got to large for RAM and his computer crashed, he started 
> splitting into multiple spreadsheets.  But that made their goal of 
> printing their entire collections of songs, alphabetized, impossible.  I 
> took the spreadsheets and combined them into Access 97, created an input 
> form and reports, and everyone was happy.
> 
> Even getting people to use a flat file database like Database Oasis 
> would be better than a spreadsheet.
> 
> > Since then I have learned a lot and find the latter concept very
> > powerful.  In your case, if Access and dBase had/have more power than
> > you ever needed and that power is all that you will ever need, then the
> > LO internal HSQLDB engine is probably a good choice for your application.
> 
> It may be, if this was a single user issue.  But we need to be 
> compatible with MS Office without having enough Windows systems, where 
> as I can lay my hands on 3 other Linux systems that are being unused.
> 
> > Now that you mentioned dBase, you may, or may not, be aware that LO has
> > a dBase option.  But a limitation to it that I found is that older
> > versions of dBase files are not supported.  I have some old dBase 1.x
> > files with dbase programs that will not load into LO, let alone run.
> 
> I didn't know this, but must admit dBase is probably not the best answer.
> 
> > Girvin
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Ken
> Mac OS X 10.8.5
> Firefox 44.0
> Thunderbird 38.0.1
> "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
>   and it's gone!"
> 
> 

-- 
Atentamente,

Jorge Rodríguez


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[Ken Springer]

On 8/1/16 12:13 PM, Girvin Herr wrote:

On 07/31/2016 07:36 PM, Ken Springer wrote:


I understand the concept of Front End/Back End, but never have dealt
with it.  Nor have I ever used MySQL, Mariadb, or others.  Access and
a bit of dBase is all I've ever used, and in general, even then that's
more power than I've ever needed.


Ken,
Actually, IIRC, Access has both a client and server built in.  The user
isn't normally aware of it.  In my experience with Access 1.1, the
server is called the "Jet" server.  Today's Access may no longer use the
Jet server, but I am sure something like it is still in there
somewhere.  I must admit the Access bundled concept is addictive.  As a
newbie to databases back in the 90s, I liked it and it was a shock and a
learning experience to wean myself off of it and go with the industry
standard forms of client/server architecture and the SQL language.


You've just mentioned the big "roadblock" for the average person to make 
use of databases.  They are too complex to learn and use for most 
people.  That's where the "all-in-one" solution is a better answer. 
It's a lot easier for the average user to wrap their heads around and 
then use it.


What happens?  The average person fills up spreadsheet after spreadsheet 
of flat file data.  My brother-in-law is a perfect example.  Years ago, 
he was putting their music collection into a spreadsheet.  When the 
sheet got to large for RAM and his computer crashed, he started 
splitting into multiple spreadsheets.  But that made their goal of 
printing their entire collections of songs, alphabetized, impossible.  I 
took the spreadsheets and combined them into Access 97, created an input 
form and reports, and everyone was happy.


Even getting people to use a flat file database like Database Oasis 
would be better than a spreadsheet.



Since then I have learned a lot and find the latter concept very
powerful.  In your case, if Access and dBase had/have more power than
you ever needed and that power is all that you will ever need, then the
LO internal HSQLDB engine is probably a good choice for your application.


It may be, if this was a single user issue.  But we need to be 
compatible with MS Office without having enough Windows systems, where 
as I can lay my hands on 3 other Linux systems that are being unused.



Now that you mentioned dBase, you may, or may not, be aware that LO has
a dBase option.  But a limitation to it that I found is that older
versions of dBase files are not supported.  I have some old dBase 1.x
files with dbase programs that will not load into LO, let alone run.


I didn't know this, but must admit dBase is probably not the best answer.


Girvin






--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 44.0
Thunderbird 38.0.1
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
 and it's gone!"


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[Jaroslaw Staniek]

On 1 August 2016 at 21:49, Girvin Herr  wrote:
> On 08/01/2016 11:35 AM, Jaroslaw Staniek wrote:
>
> On 1 August 2016 at 00:16, Girvin Herr
>  wrote:
>
>
> Ken,
> One thing about Kexi.  I looked at it a few weeks ago and discovered that
> Kexi has a capability of reading Access database files to some degree.
> However, it reads and converts the access database into its own internal
> database.  Kexi has no capability to interface to and use an external
> database server (aka "Back End") such as Mariadb or MySQL, as LO Base does.
>
> Hi,
> If you mean ability to connect without generating any metadata as in
> pure frontends, and being a SQL frontend, then yes. The internal
> database is created on first use, however it still can be the server
> database possibly running on the same server like the original one,
> it's just not the same database.
>
> I recommend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kexi#Features - 2.x supports
> MySQL, PostgreSQL, xBase and MS SQL/Sybase backends (it does so
> without limiting itself to capabilities of ODBC/JDBC).
>
> KEXI 3 would be able to do open databases "in place", just not 3.0.
> Still, it would not be called a db frontend however transmitting
> unchecked/raw SQL strings back and forth; it would be still more a
> different type of software: an integrated app creator / environment,
> so a slightly more high-level tool.
>
> Jaroslaw,
> What I found back on July 4th (and today) is this snippet from the Kexi FAQ,
> Q1.2:
>
> http://kexi-project.org/wiki/wikiview/index@kexifaq.html
>
> "- Currently you can not "open" (i.e. connect to) databases created outside
> of Kexi. You can only import the tables and data. "
>
> That tells me that databases other than Kexi can only be imported (converted
> to Kexi format and maintained internal to Kexi, not Kexi maintaining the
> server version).  When Kexi states that they support databases like  "MySQL,
> PostgreSQL, xBase and MS SQL/Sybase", I must assume they mean that Kexi can
> import and convert such databases, not connect to their server and maintain
> the server versions.  There is a big difference.

You are right, there's a difference. But there is no Kexi format.
Databases are imported back to any place you have access to, that can
be very the same server you already use.

To possibly clarify this a bit since we touche the topic of this
thread - the "compatibility" - I'd like to add:

- Just connecting to a database and not emplying any meta data would
mean forms, reports, scripts, etcetera, can't be saved. This is
because no server we're talking about has support for "CREATE FORM",
"CREATE REPORT" command, a standardised one or not. Kexi does, that's
the reason for having own extensions. Just like Base but please refer
to the next point.

- Kexi needs no additional database or XML files to store forms,
reports, etc. Commands like "CREATE FORM" are translated to native SQL
commands of your database of choice, on the fly.

- Based on the above, all data stored and raw structures are
accessible without exporting to other MySQL/PostgreSQL/MS SQL tools
and APIs. There's no what would be called a Kexi format, there's the
meta data. Of course forms are not visible to, say, MySQL because
MySQL has no form capabilities and is not designed for that. (Neither
Oracle has, Oracle Forms has, as an extension)
For example if we crafted a form or report running on top of table
"Customers (ID, name, surname)" and add column (age) to it in MySQL
Admin tool, change _won't_ be visible in the form, no matter what tool
we're using.

These above design choices were justified by these facts and that back
in 2004 some backends such SQLite 2 had no way to fully discover the
schema schema. As said before KEXI 3 would have the discussed behavior
a bit more liberal, benefiting from advancements in database backends.

Cheers

> My Kexi research was precipitated by confirming that AOO 4.1.2 had a broken
> Report Builder and it looked like it was not going to be fixed anytime soon.
> This was a show-stopper for me.  My Slackware 14.1 Linux comes with Kexi
> 2.7.4, so I naturally looked at it.  I was searching for another Mariadb
> client option to see what Kexi could do for me, since I was having problems
> with LO 4.x+.  When I discovered the above FAQ statement, it told me I could
> not use Kexi in my application.  I was not going to get "locked in" to
> another integrated application like MS Access.  It could be that at some
> time in the future Kexi will have the connection capability that I require
> and I may revisit it.
>
> In case you're interested, I ended up using AOO 4.1.2 for documents, which
> doesn't have the problems I am having with LO 4+, and LO 5.0.6 for my
> databases, which has a working Report Builder (Kudos to the devs for fixing
> the lines in reports not WYSIWYG problem).
>
> Girvin
>
>
>
>



-- 
regards, Jaroslaw Staniek

KDE:
: A world-wide network of software 

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[Ian Whitfield]

*Hi all*

*Re: The LO Base discussion* - just my "Penny's Worth"!!!

After a 5+ years effort to use LO Base I have given up completely!! It 
is *NOT* usable at all in it's "out of the box" set-up, ie with the HSQL 
engine. It is totally unstable, crashes frequently AND - *MORE 
IMPORTANT* - trashes all you data when it goes down!!! This seems to be 
something to do with the compressing that the program does as you exit 
the program.


The only way I got any (sort of results) was by using MySQL as the 
backend but it took a couple of months to get it working and after a few 
months even that crashed on me. I recently had to re-build my computer 
after a hardware failure and my OpSys upgraded to 64bit and since then I 
can not even get the MySQL linking in LO Base to even start!!


So if you are happy to keep lots and lots of backups, and spend lots and 
lots of time re-building everything at almost monthly intervals - and by 
re-building I mean the Database Tables, redesign all your Forms and 
set-up all your Queries and Reports from scratch - then go with it, 
otherwise give it a miss.


I have searched for a suitable replacement. I run Linux here, and have 
looked at many programs. In desperation I was keeping things going using 
LO Calc and this is not easy. The rest of LO is fine and I use it a lot 
but base is the (VERY) weak link in the chain. This not only my opinion 
- if you dig around you will find many reports of this.


Early this month I gave *Kexi* a second try and I'm finding it very 
workable. It is still a bit "young" but does everything I want for my 
Database and I'm very comfortable with it. It is "All-in-one" using 
SQLite as the engine and the only major problem I have come across is 
the program crashing during Form design but frequent (say every 5min 
saves) seems to get round this. Doing actual work with the finished 
set-up has so far proved Rock Solid. It's worth a look at and stay with 
it long enough to learn its rather different layout and way of doing thins!!


Have fun - I am and very happy to be away from LO Base.

All the best

IanW
Pretoria RSA






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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[Girvin Herr]

On 08/01/2016 11:35 AM, Jaroslaw Staniek wrote:

On 1 August 2016 at 00:16, Girvin Herr
 wrote:


Ken,
One thing about Kexi.  I looked at it a few weeks ago and discovered that
Kexi has a capability of reading Access database files to some degree.
However, it reads and converts the access database into its own internal
database.  Kexi has no capability to interface to and use an external
database server (aka "Back End") such as Mariadb or MySQL, as LO Base does.

Hi,
If you mean ability to connect without generating any metadata as in
pure frontends, and being a SQL frontend, then yes. The internal
database is created on first use, however it still can be the server
database possibly running on the same server like the original one,
it's just not the same database.

I recommend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kexi#Features - 2.x supports
MySQL, PostgreSQL, xBase and MS SQL/Sybase backends (it does so
without limiting itself to capabilities of ODBC/JDBC).

KEXI 3 would be able to do open databases "in place", just not 3.0.
Still, it would not be called a db frontend however transmitting
unchecked/raw SQL strings back and forth; it would be still more a
different type of software: an integrated app creator / environment,
so a slightly more high-level tool.


Jaroslaw,
What I found back on July 4th (and today) is this snippet from the Kexi 
FAQ, Q1.2:


http://kexi-project.org/wiki/wikiview/index@kexifaq.html

"- *Currently you can not "open" (i.e. connect to) databases created 
outside of Kexi. You can only import the tables and data*. "


That tells me that databases other than Kexi can only be imported 
(converted to Kexi format and maintained internal to Kexi, not Kexi 
maintaining the server version).  When Kexi states that they support 
databases like  "MySQL, PostgreSQL, xBase and MS SQL/Sybase", I must 
assume they mean that Kexi can import and convert such databases, not 
connect to their server and maintain the server versions.  There is a 
big difference.


My Kexi research was precipitated by confirming that AOO 4.1.2 had a 
broken Report Builder and it looked like it was not going to be fixed 
anytime soon.  This was a show-stopper for me.  My Slackware 14.1 Linux 
comes with Kexi 2.7.4, so I naturally looked at it.  I was searching for 
another Mariadb client option to see what Kexi could do for me, since I 
was having problems with LO 4.x+.  When I discovered the above FAQ 
statement, it told me I could not use Kexi in my application.  I was not 
going to get "locked in" to another integrated application like MS 
Access.  It could be that at some time in the future Kexi will have the 
connection capability that I require and I may revisit it.


In case you're interested, I ended up using AOO 4.1.2 for documents, 
which doesn't have the problems I am having with LO 4+, and LO 5.0.6 for 
my databases, which has a working Report Builder (Kudos to the devs for 
fixing the lines in reports not WYSIWYG problem).


Girvin





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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[Girvin Herr]

On 07/31/2016 07:36 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

I understand the concept of Front End/Back End, but never have dealt 
with it.  Nor have I ever used MySQL, Mariadb, or others.  Access and 
a bit of dBase is all I've ever used, and in general, even then that's 
more power than I've ever needed.



Ken,
Actually, IIRC, Access has both a client and server built in.  The user 
isn't normally aware of it.  In my experience with Access 1.1, the 
server is called the "Jet" server.  Today's Access may no longer use the 
Jet server, but I am sure something like it is still in there 
somewhere.  I must admit the Access bundled concept is addictive.  As a 
newbie to databases back in the 90s, I liked it and it was a shock and a 
learning experience to wean myself off of it and go with the industry 
standard forms of client/server architecture and the SQL language.  
Since then I have learned a lot and find the latter concept very 
powerful.  In your case, if Access and dBase had/have more power than 
you ever needed and that power is all that you will ever need, then the 
LO internal HSQLDB engine is probably a good choice for your application.


Now that you mentioned dBase, you may, or may not, be aware that LO has 
a dBase option.  But a limitation to it that I found is that older 
versions of dBase files are not supported.  I have some old dBase 1.x 
files with dbase programs that will not load into LO, let alone run.


Girvin



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[toki]

On 31/07/2016 19:32, Ken Springer wrote:

> Personally, I like the idea of the complete database package, as I think
> it makes it easier for the average person to create something useful for
> them.

How much functionality does the Access2Base extension offer, in terms of
making it easier to create  queries, forms, reports and modules/macro?

jonathon







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[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[Ken Springer]

On 7/31/16 4:16 PM, Girvin Herr wrote:

On 07/31/2016 12:49 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 7/30/16 3:30 PM, jorge wrote:

Hi:

On GNU / Linux / Ubuntu, and of course in other distributions, there are
to program that you would probe because could help you to export Access
DB to open document:

1) MDBtools (View and export MSAccess db)

2) Kexi of Caligra Suite that say it is able to read MS Access db


Thanks, jorge.  I'll have to check with my "conspirator" on how much
effort in learning he's willing to do to create a Linux database.

Ken


Ken,
One thing about Kexi.  I looked at it a few weeks ago and discovered
that Kexi has a capability of reading Access database files to some
degree.  However, it reads and converts the access database into its own
internal database.  Kexi has no capability to interface to and use an
external database server (aka "Back End") such as Mariadb or MySQL, as
LO Base does.

I am using LO Base as a database client (aka "Front End") on Linux and
connected to my Mariadb database server using a Java "connector"
driver.  I do this because the LO internal HSQDB has limitations that
MySQL and Mariadb do not have.  You may consider this if your
database(s) are large or complex.


Thanks for the above info, Girvin.  I appreciate it.

I understand the concept of Front End/Back End, but never have dealt 
with it.  Nor have I ever used MySQL, Mariadb, or others.  Access and a 
bit of dBase is all I've ever used, and in general, even then that's 
more power than I've ever needed.


Another gentleman and I trying to get a social agency we both volunteer 
for out of the dark ages of computers.  Due to ignorance of computers, 
and a good bunch of resistance to change, it will be a daunting task.



Years ago, I had my data in an access (1.1) database and needed to port
my data to MySQL.  I managed it by using the option in access to output
the database as a comma-separated file, much like a spreadsheet ".csv"
file.  I then was able to set up MySQL to import this file into its
database format.  Of course, as some others have noted, the forms and
reports needed to be recreated.  At this time, OpenOffice (before LO was
available) did not have a database client which would work with MySQL,
so I chose an open source client called Rekall and had to recreate my
data entry forms and reports.  It was labor intensive, but needed to be
done.  Then Rekall went bust and I had to find another client.  By then,
OpenOffice had Base, which would talk to my MySQL database engine.  I
did not need to do anything with my MySQL database, but I did have to
recreate all of my data entry forms and reports yet again - more labor.
So, the bottom line is that any time you change database clients, expect
to recreate the data entry forms and reports.  There is no standard for
them.  One big advantage to using an external database such as MySQL or
Mariadb, is that they use standard SQL, while the LO Base HSQDB database
server uses a non-standard version of SQL.  So, using HSQDB could lock
you in to it.

My databases are critical to me.  All of my database software decisions
were based on being able to easily port my data to another client or
server and not need to recreate it.  Depending on the size of your
database, that could take much more time than recreating just the forms
and reports.

Hope this helps with your decision.  Good luck.
Girvin Herr





--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 44.0
Thunderbird 38.0.1
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
 and it's gone!"


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[Andreas Säger]

After all the years I'm still shocked by the level of ignorance on this user
support mailing list.

https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=83=25300




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[Girvin Herr]

On 07/31/2016 12:49 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 7/30/16 3:30 PM, jorge wrote:

Hi:

On GNU / Linux / Ubuntu, and of course in other distributions, there are
to program that you would probe because could help you to export Access
DB to open document:

1) MDBtools (View and export MSAccess db)

2) Kexi of Caligra Suite that say it is able to read MS Access db


Thanks, jorge.  I'll have to check with my "conspirator" on how much 
effort in learning he's willing to do to create a Linux database.


Ken 


Ken,
One thing about Kexi.  I looked at it a few weeks ago and discovered 
that Kexi has a capability of reading Access database files to some 
degree.  However, it reads and converts the access database into its own 
internal database.  Kexi has no capability to interface to and use an 
external database server (aka "Back End") such as Mariadb or MySQL, as 
LO Base does.


I am using LO Base as a database client (aka "Front End") on Linux and 
connected to my Mariadb database server using a Java "connector" 
driver.  I do this because the LO internal HSQDB has limitations that 
MySQL and Mariadb do not have.  You may consider this if your 
database(s) are large or complex.


Years ago, I had my data in an access (1.1) database and needed to port 
my data to MySQL.  I managed it by using the option in access to output 
the database as a comma-separated file, much like a spreadsheet ".csv" 
file.  I then was able to set up MySQL to import this file into its 
database format.  Of course, as some others have noted, the forms and 
reports needed to be recreated.  At this time, OpenOffice (before LO was 
available) did not have a database client which would work with MySQL, 
so I chose an open source client called Rekall and had to recreate my 
data entry forms and reports.  It was labor intensive, but needed to be 
done.  Then Rekall went bust and I had to find another client.  By then, 
OpenOffice had Base, which would talk to my MySQL database engine.  I 
did not need to do anything with my MySQL database, but I did have to 
recreate all of my data entry forms and reports yet again - more labor.  
So, the bottom line is that any time you change database clients, expect 
to recreate the data entry forms and reports.  There is no standard for 
them.  One big advantage to using an external database such as MySQL or 
Mariadb, is that they use standard SQL, while the LO Base HSQDB database 
server uses a non-standard version of SQL.  So, using HSQDB could lock 
you in to it.


My databases are critical to me.  All of my database software decisions 
were based on being able to easily port my data to another client or 
server and not need to recreate it.  Depending on the size of your 
database, that could take much more time than recreating just the forms 
and reports.


Hope this helps with your decision.  Good luck.
Girvin Herr


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[Harvey Nimmo]

On Sun, 2016-07-31 at 13:32 -0600, Ken Springer wrote:
> On 7/30/16 8:40 AM, Harvey Nimmo wrote:
> > On Fri, 2016-07-29 at 20:53 -0600, Ken Springer wrote:
> > > The subject says it all, how successful is Base in importing
> > > Access
> > > Databases?
> > > 
> > > LO 5.0.x
> > > 
> > > --
> > > Ken
> > > Mac OS X 10.8.5
> > > Firefox 44.0
> > > Thunderbird 38.0.1
> > > "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
> > >   and it's gone!"
> > > 
> > > 
> > Unfortunately, MS Access users were spoilt with the 'complete'
> > database
> > package supporting tables, queries, forms, reports and
> > modules/macros.
> > Although its 'openness' or performance or compatibility with the
> > rest
> > of the MS Office suite leave much to be desired (in my humble
> > opinion)
> > the MSaccess package is a (more or less) complete solution.
> > LibreOffice
> > on the other hand cannot match the user comfort (yet!).
> 
> Thanks, Harvey.  Not the answer I was hoping for, but the one I 
> expected.  LOL
> 
> Personally, I like the idea of the complete database package, as I
> think 
> it makes it easier for the average person to create something useful
> for 
> them.

Well, it is probably unrealistic to expect a 'complete' solution for
the complete porting of a database from a proprietary solution to an
open source one, bearing in mind the number of fields of API issues
needing attention and the understandable resistance from the
proprietary side to supporting a free solution and all that that
entails with risking divulgence of company secrets to a competitor.

What one can hope for from LOBase with time is growing maturity and
user comfort in the area of the forms, reports and macros. My
impression is that it is slow in coming.

What I appreciate very much in LOBase is the back-end support for
diverse databases (e.g. mysql/mariadb etc). This, at least, opens the
door for developing the database backend (schemas, tables, queries,
views) with other tools until the hoped-for user comfort arrives at the
front-end.

Cheers
Harvey

 

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[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[Ken Springer]

On 7/30/16 3:30 PM, jorge wrote:

Hi:

On GNU / Linux / Ubuntu, and of course in other distributions, there are
to program that you would probe because could help you to export Access
DB to open document:

1) MDBtools (View and export MSAccess db)

2) Kexi of Caligra Suite that say it is able to read MS Access db


Thanks, jorge.  I'll have to check with my "conspirator" on how much 
effort in learning he's willing to do to create a Linux database.


Ken


I hope this help,

Regards,

Jorge Rodríguez


El sáb, 30-07-2016 a las 16:40 +0200, Harvey Nimmo escribió:

On Fri, 2016-07-29 at 20:53 -0600, Ken Springer wrote:

The subject says it all, how successful is Base in importing Access
Databases?

LO 5.0.x

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 44.0
Thunderbird 38.0.1
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
  and it's gone!"



Unfortunately, MS Access users were spoilt with the 'complete' database
package supporting tables, queries, forms, reports and modules/macros.
Although its 'openness' or performance or compatibility with the rest
of the MS Office suite leave much to be desired (in my humble opinion)
the MSaccess package is a (more or less) complete solution. LibreOffice
on the other hand cannot match the user comfort (yet!).

There is a tool, access2sql that to allows you to generate the sql
needed to build all your 'tables' again (including their data) and
'queries'. But for the 'forms' and 'reports' you will have to start
from scratch in LOBase and, as I say, the user comfort for that is not
as mature as in MSAccess. In LOBase you can also write modules/macros
in Visual Basic. I have no experience of that either, but it does
suggest that VBA macros might with reservation be portable and
modifiable.

In other words, i blieve it is not hopelessly impossible and
I am sure that the experts can add their 'two penn'orth'

Cheers
Harvey




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[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility of LO Base with Access databases

[Ken Springer]

On 7/30/16 8:40 AM, Harvey Nimmo wrote:

On Fri, 2016-07-29 at 20:53 -0600, Ken Springer wrote:

The subject says it all, how successful is Base in importing Access
Databases?

LO 5.0.x

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 44.0
Thunderbird 38.0.1
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
  and it's gone!"



Unfortunately, MS Access users were spoilt with the 'complete' database
package supporting tables, queries, forms, reports and modules/macros.
Although its 'openness' or performance or compatibility with the rest
of the MS Office suite leave much to be desired (in my humble opinion)
the MSaccess package is a (more or less) complete solution. LibreOffice
on the other hand cannot match the user comfort (yet!).


Thanks, Harvey.  Not the answer I was hoping for, but the one I 
expected.  LOL


Personally, I like the idea of the complete database package, as I think 
it makes it easier for the average person to create something useful for 
them.



There is a tool, access2sql that to allows you to generate the sql
needed to build all your 'tables' again (including their data) and
'queries'. But for the 'forms' and 'reports' you will have to start
from scratch in LOBase and, as I say, the user comfort for that is not
as mature as in MSAccess. In LOBase you can also write modules/macros
in Visual Basic. I have no experience of that either, but it does
suggest that VBA macros might with reservation be portable and
modifiable.

In other words, i blieve it is not hopelessly impossible and
I am sure that the experts can add their 'two penn'orth'

Cheers
Harvey







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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility

[Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster]

On 11/02/2015 03:05 AM, James E. Lang wrote:

"Ordinary end user" is a trade marked phrase for what company?



Yes, that is the question.

I saw on a computer commercial - cannot remember which company - 
trademarked "hit the ground running".  I have been using that phrase 
since the late 60's.  Now it is trademarked for a computer company that 
all I remember about the commercial was the phrase.




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[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility

[Ken Springer]

On 11/1/15 7:59 AM, Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote:

http://softmaker.de  Never heard of this product. Plus I am not
interested in buying another office suite that needs to be bought over
again, and again, to keep it up-to-date.


FYI for everyone, Softmaker has a free version of their software, 
Freeoffice.  A web search should find you something about that.


WPS (formerly Kingsoft) Office also has free and paid for versions.

Both support MS Office file formats, and have free mobile versions of 
their software.




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility

[Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster]

On 10/31/2015 10:50 AM, Andreas Säger wrote:

Am 26.10.2015 um 17:04 schrieb p.a.2k9:

Hi,
Before I decide to download your software I wanted to check on its 
compatibility with other providers ie microsoft office, word, excel as I use 
those at work but need to do work at home sometimes using sheets already 
created in microsoft.

Thanks

Paul




Sent from Samsung tablet



Being _in_compatible is one of the most important parts of the Microsoft
business model and they do a very good job making compatibility as
difficult as possible. In the end the "ordinary end user"(tm) will
always blame the vendor of the other software but not Microsoft.
Breaking this business model by a free and open and simplier document
standard is the one and only reason why LibreOffice exists.
"Compatibility" with foreign document formats allows you to convert
documents and templates to the open standard but it is not intended that
you keep on working with Microsoft documents while using another
software although this may work to a certain degree. The real trouble
starts when a crashed foreign document can't be restored and you don't
have your own backup of the file.

Regarding "compatibility" with Microsoft document formats, only MS
software can open these formats almost perfectly. In rare cases there
are incompatibilities with recent MS Office versions opening documents
from the 90ies. Documents from the 80ies are lost until you find some
converter to extract the written text at least. Some doc/xls files that
can't be opened with MS Office open fine with LibreOffice.
Second best choice regarding MS document formats is http://softmaker.de
Third best is LibreOffice.
Recent versions of MS Office claim to support LibreOffice's ODF (Open
Document Format) which is a good thing.




- "ordinary end user"(tm) People will trademark anything these days. 
What's next? "the water is blue" or "the sun rises in the east"? - 
http://softmaker.de Never heard of this product. Plus I am not 
interested in buying another office suite that needs to be bought over 
again, and again, to keep it up-to-date. - MS Office claim to support 
LibreOffice's ODF LibreOffice does not own the rights to ODF formats, 
but it uses THE International Standard format[s] that is the Open 
Document Format. As I understand it, MS Office does not support it fully 
with its newer versions. MS wanted their OOXML open format to be the ISO 
format, but ODF was chosen instead. Last time I heard anything about it, 
MS does not even support their proposed open OOXML standard when they 
proposed it to the "commission". LibreOffice has supported ODF since 
LiberOffice's first office suite version. - crashed foreign document 
can't be restore First, what is a "foreign document". Second, I have 
crashed a few documents from some Windows problems and LibreOffice seems 
to restore these documents properly. - Breaking this business model by a 
free and open and simplier document standard is the one and only reason 
why LibreOffice exists.


I do not agree with this.  LibreOffice, for me, was a great way to have 
a very good replacement for MS Office, on computers that do not run 
Windows or for those who just got tired [and could not afford] buying 
new versions of MS Office all the time.  Why don't you try that "only 
reason" bull on all of the European users, businesses, and government 
agencies, that have dropped MS Office in favor of LibreOffice.  They 
will give you answers to you that I will not repeat here, since it would 
take many pages to state them all, but I agree with some of their reasons.


Another reason is the fact that I find LibreOffice easier to use than 
the newest version of MS Office's trial versions, since I cannot afford 
to buy it.


Also, I do not think ODF is a simpler document format.  It can 
create/save documents in a much more complex design than I will ever use 
myself.  Being "open source", there are  people in the community that 
are looking for ways to improve the way ODF does it job and ways to add 
more formatting options to ODF so it will continue to give the software 
designers more formatting options for their users.







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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility

[Bastián Díaz]

El 01-11-2015 11:59, Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster escribió:


- "ordinary end user"(tm) People will trademark anything these days. 
What's next? "the water is blue" or "the >sun rises in the east"?


The trademark is not everything, but I think it does not matter if there 
are many office products (software) and these are proprietary software, 
free, open source, etc., as long as they respect all the ODF standard 
and can interoperate with each other. The end user choose the software 
you want to use.


- MS Office claim to support LibreOffice's ODF LibreOffice does not own 
the rights to ODF formats, but it uses >THE International Standard 
format[s] that is the Open Document Format. As I understand it, MS 
Office does not >support it fully with its newer versions. MS wanted 
their OOXML open format to be the ISO format, but ODF was >chosen 
instead.


Unfortunately the "Office Open XML" format is an ECMA standard 
(http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-376.htm) 
and ISO/IEC standard 
(http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_tc_browse.htm?commid=45374).


Furthermore, there is a lack regarding the use of standard office 
formats MS Office and LibreOffice.
- By default, LibreOffice saves documents in extended OpenDocument 
format (advanced versions of the standard in the future will become the 
stricter standard).
Therefore, if you want to operate in a better way with other 
applications, you must configure LibreOffice to save documents in the 
strict OpenDocument format 
(http://www.iso.org/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER=43485).
- On the other hand, MS Office supports the strict Open Document format 
(implementation is bad anyway) and works with the OOXML standard. 
However, MS Office save document in OOXML transitional format and (I do 
not know if can be configured to save in strict OOXML format.). In 
addition, there is much inconsistency between OOXML formats because each 
version of MS Office saves documents in a different format (draft?) and 
that brings chaos.


- Breaking this business model by a free and open and simplier document 
standard is the one and only reason why >LibreOffice exists.


The open and free format already exists since 2006 (ODF), but as I said, 
Microsoft and the imposition of its format has managed to become a 
double standard and for more, prevents proper implementation for 
alternatives (through drafts , proprietary fonts, etc.) for users to 
prefer your product.


Another reason is the fact that I find LibreOffice easier to use than 
the newest version of MS Office's trial >versions, since I cannot 
afford to buy it.


Each user has the ability to choose. For me, WPS office 
(https://www.wps.com)would be a good option if you will support the 
OpenDocument format.


Also, I do not think ODF is a simpler document format. It can 
create/save documents in a much more complex >design than I will ever 
use myself. Being "open source", there are people in the community that 
are looking for >ways to improve the way ODF does it job and ways to 
add more formatting options to ODF so it will continue to >give the 
software designers more formatting options for their users.


I agree. Now the problem for developers is that there are two standard 
formats and each choose to implement.


For me the future is LibreOffice, but who knows ... some time ago for me 
was the future OpenOffice.org.


Cheers


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility

[V Stuart Foote]

Andreas Säger wrote
> Am 26.10.2015 um 17:04 schrieb p.a.2k9:
>> Hi,
>> Before I decide to download your software I wanted to check on its
>> compatibility with other providers ie microsoft office, word, excel as I
>> use those at work but need to do work at home sometimes using sheets
>> already created in microsoft.
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Paul
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from Samsung tablet
>> 
> 
> 
> Being _in_compatible is one of the most important parts of the Microsoft
> business model and they do a very good job making compatibility as
> difficult as possible. In the end the "ordinary end user"(tm) will
> always blame the vendor of the other software but not Microsoft.
> Breaking this business model by a free and open and simplier document
> standard is the one and only reason why LibreOffice exists.
> "Compatibility" with foreign document formats allows you to convert
> documents and templates to the open standard but it is not intended that
> you keep on working with Microsoft documents while using another
> software although this may work to a certain degree. The real trouble
> starts when a crashed foreign document can't be restored and you don't
> have your own backup of the file.
> 
> Regarding "compatibility" with Microsoft document formats, only MS
> software can open these formats almost perfectly. In rare cases there
> are incompatibilities with recent MS Office versions opening documents
> from the 90ies. Documents from the 80ies are lost until you find some
> converter to extract the written text at least. Some doc/xls files that
> can't be opened with MS Office open fine with LibreOffice.
> Second best choice regarding MS document formats is http://softmaker.de
> Third best is LibreOffice.
> Recent versions of MS Office claim to support LibreOffice's ODF (Open
> Document Format) which is a good thing.

+1 -- I don't understand why this is such a hard concept for folks to grasp
;-)

Also--if you must work both ways MS Office <--> LibreOffice,  export from MS
Office's native format  (OOXML) to ODF for work in LibreOffice. And then
send it back to MS Office in ODF from LibreOffice--not the filter based
export to OOXML.

ODF is the standard supported, not OOXML (.docx, .xlsx, .pptx)

Once back in MS Office save to OOXML if you need to exchange with other MS
Office users.

Try it, you'll find it functional that way.  Less so if you try to send
OOXML back and forth.



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[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility

[Andreas Säger]

V Stuart Foote wrote
> 
> +1 -- I don't understand why this is such a hard concept for folks to
> grasp ;-)

I found that a whole lot of people suffer from the misconception that their
document files contain computer instructions. When I select a portion of
text, click the bold button and save the document then the file contains a
clear and unambiguous computer instruction that this portion of text has to
be painted in bold font.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: compatibility with Microsoft Access

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Urmas' last few posts have been really useful so it's not really fair
to say he/she is always a pain.  That last post was the first outbreak
of trollishness for many months.
Regards from
Tom :)



On 31 January 2015 at 19:26, Cley Faye cleyf...@gmail.com wrote:
 2015-01-31 18:26 GMT+01:00 Urmas davian...@gmail.com:

 fosstards


 We can all thanks Urmas for raising the level of discussions here. That's
 outright aggressive, for those that still have doubt.

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[libreoffice-users] Re: compatibility with Microsoft Access

[Urmas]

Alex Thurgood:


database programming with
freely accessible tools, rather than being locked in to one vendor.


Such as? Don't tell me fosstards have developed something as elegant as 
Access.




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: compatibility with Microsoft Access

[Cley Faye]

2015-01-31 18:26 GMT+01:00 Urmas davian...@gmail.com:

 fosstards


We can all thanks Urmas for raising the level of discussions here. That's
outright aggressive, for those that still have doubt.

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[libreoffice-users] Re: compatibility with Microsoft Access

[Alex Thurgood]

Le 29/01/2015 14:45, lalitadatta a écrit :

Hi,

 My daughter's in need of Microsoft access for her homework - she's studying
 computer 
 technology at high school, and she needs Access for coding.  Anyone knows if
 liber office should do the job? 

Short answer - no. LibreOffice will not produce Microsoft Access
databases, nor will it allow you to use the same query system, form
designer, or report maker.

LibreOffice can, under certain conditions however, read and write data
to/from MS Access databases, but anything your daughter manages to build
in the way of queries or forms or reports will not be readable by others
using MS Access.

So, either get her MS Access, or else complain to the high school that
it would be better to teach their students database programming with
freely accessible tools, rather than being locked in to one vendor.


Alex



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: compatibility with Microsoft Access

[Philip Jordan]

Sometimes (in the uk in the past) Schools /or Education authorities could
help by being a vehicle via which to buy something like this:
but currently, assuming you're in the UK, it could be that our continuing
austerity is a reason (among others) why this is no longer true?

So,perhaps too, the teacher/s concerned can advise where  what's best to
buy?

On 30 January 2015 at 11:50, lalitadatta lalitadatta1...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi all,

 Thank you very much for your support.
 After reading all the responses, I think I will have to get my daughter a
 laptop and get her to download Access through the school at a cheaper
 price.
 Since all our computers runs Windows Vista, and the Access from school only
 works on Win 7 or Win8, I don't think I have much choice :(
 I hope you guys won't mind me asking would an Asus Transformer T100 serves
 the purpose?
 There is literally millions of laptops available out there, too many
 choices
 to choose from.

 Regards.

 Lalita



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: compatibility with Microsoft Access

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Good point!  Is there some IT into Schools scheme?

Some areas have computer shops that sell 2nd hand machines or
refurbished ones but for a school kid i think you kinda have to go for
something new with a bit of a wow factor otherwise kids kinda get
picked on.

I'm not much good at picking hardware but the Asus Transformer T100
looks nice.  Notebook is about the right size as anything smaller
(such as a Netbook) tends to be tooo slow with Windows on.  Notebook
is large enough that you might even be able to set-up a dual-boot with
Ubuntu or something in the future.  A quick google search seems to
suggest £200 - £300 which seems about as cheap as you can get anything
worth getting, with Windows on.  Windows 8 is radically different from
Win7/Xp.  Definitely avoid Vista!  It looks a lot like Win7/Xp but
it's already being retired.  Win8 is the new way forwards so even
though it's a pain it's something Windows users are going to have to
learn.

The wow factor of being able to transform from notebook (nice
keyboard action) to tablet (good for multimedia and just viewing
things).  I have heard that these sort of hybrid/transformer types are
sometimes tricky when being used as a tablet because it's too easy to
get stuck into something that needs really kinda needs a keyboard but
i'm guessing that was because the reviewers don't have kid's sized
fingers and they kinda fat-fingered some of the smaller controls.

Of course you can still have LibreOffice or OpenOffice on it (or both
but that would be excessive!) alongside MS Office.  I think a LOT of
people do that.  It's often because they have some old version of MS
Office and are looking to migrate away from MS.  However each is
better at handling different formats so having both means you can open
pretty much anything even if the other kids struggle to share stuff.

When you get MS Office you need to check that whichever bundle you get
does include Access.  That sounds obvious but most academic or
student bundles don't have Access and that's one of the reasons it's
so much cheaper.  Remember the aim of MS is to make a profit from
people and to make them feel like it's all their own fault when they
do something wrong.  So if you do get the wrong bundle it is because
the whole bundle system is designed to be confusing.

If you do end-up with an MS Office that doesn't have Access you can
probably buy Access on it's own.  Hmmm, maybe you could just get
Access on it's own without the rest of MS Office and then get
LibreOffice.  Again i think the other kids might think that is too
weird.

Regards from
Tom :)


On 30 January 2015 at 16:08, Philip Jordan jorphi...@gmail.com wrote:
 Sometimes (in the uk in the past) Schools /or Education authorities could
 help by being a vehicle via which to buy something like this:
 but currently, assuming you're in the UK, it could be that our continuing
 austerity is a reason (among others) why this is no longer true?

 So,perhaps too, the teacher/s concerned can advise where  what's best to
 buy?

 On 30 January 2015 at 11:50, lalitadatta lalitadatta1...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi all,

 Thank you very much for your support.
 After reading all the responses, I think I will have to get my daughter a
 laptop and get her to download Access through the school at a cheaper
 price.
 Since all our computers runs Windows Vista, and the Access from school only
 works on Win 7 or Win8, I don't think I have much choice :(
 I hope you guys won't mind me asking would an Asus Transformer T100 serves
 the purpose?
 There is literally millions of laptops available out there, too many
 choices
 to choose from.

 Regards.

 Lalita



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[libreoffice-users] Re: compatibility with Microsoft Access

[lalitadatta]

Hi all,

Thank you very much for your support. 
After reading all the responses, I think I will have to get my daughter a
laptop and get her to download Access through the school at a cheaper price. 
Since all our computers runs Windows Vista, and the Access from school only
works on Win 7 or Win8, I don't think I have much choice :(
I hope you guys won't mind me asking would an Asus Transformer T100 serves
the purpose?
There is literally millions of laptops available out there, too many choices
to choose from.

Regards.

Lalita



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[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility issue opening an .xlsx file with calc: Err:509

[m.a.riosv]

Hi Eric,

I think the problem is with what I guess are the table fields, not supported
by LibreOffice, as range of named ranges.

http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/file/n4114219/Captura.png 

Miguel Ángel



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[libreoffice-users] Re: compatibility with documents edited in officesuite 7

[Pedro]

Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote
 I'm just staggered there is STILL no Office suite for Android that will 
 edit and save odf documents...

There is AndrOpenOffice (which is not by Apache) but it seems to be a direct
port of the desktop version, which makes it unusable in a smartphone. Maybe
in a tablet with keyboard?

The problem with ODF is that only LibreOffice and OpenOffice use it... So
it's not a vendor lock in (like MS file formats) but it's a vendor lock out
(because others refuse or see no point in including it)
LibreOffice also ignores other Open Source file formats like abw or gnumeric
so maybe exchanging courtesies with other office suites would help...

Just my 2 cents...



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: compatibility with documents edited in officesuite 7

[James Knott]

Pedro wrote:
 The problem with ODF is that only LibreOffice and OpenOffice use it... So

Actually, MS Office does now too, as does KWrite.  There is also an ODF
viewer for Android.


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility LO/MSO

[Urmas]

Milos Sramek:

I observe that LibreOffice and MS Office display even simple documents, 
containing just a few paragraphs with numbered and bulleted lists, 
differently. I would like to understand the situation and to know


This is an intentional strategy of vendor lock-in using ODF document 
formats. The competitive formats are implemented not fully or with 
deliberate errors.





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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility LO/MSO

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Mistakes happen but with ODF it's easy to post a bug-report against whichever 
programs (except against MS ones) had trouble and get a response.  With MS 
formats you just have to accept the problems.
Regards from 

Tom :)  






 From: Urmas davian...@gmail.com
To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Monday, 6 May 2013, 17:11
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility LO/MSO
 

Milos Sramek:

 I observe that LibreOffice and MS Office display even simple documents, 
 containing just a few paragraphs with numbered and bulleted lists, 
 differently. I would like to understand the situation and to know

This is an intentional strategy of vendor lock-in using ODF document 
formats. The competitive formats are implemented not fully or with 
deliberate errors.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility LO/MSO

[Doug]

On 05/06/2013 12:11 PM, Urmas wrote:

Milos Sramek:

I observe that LibreOffice and MS Office display even simple 
documents, containing just a few paragraphs with numbered and 
bulleted lists, differently. I would like to understand the situation 
and to know


This is an intentional strategy of vendor lock-in using ODF document 
formats. The competitive formats are implemented not fully or with 
deliberate errors 
Is this also true if you use MS 1997~2003 .doc format?  And if not, then 
why not use that format?


--doug

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility LO/MSO

[Kracked_P_P---webmaster]

On 05/06/2013 02:15 PM, Doug wrote:

On 05/06/2013 12:11 PM, Urmas wrote:

Milos Sramek:

I observe that LibreOffice and MS Office display even simple 
documents, containing just a few paragraphs with numbered and 
bulleted lists, differently. I would like to understand the 
situation and to know


This is an intentional strategy of vendor lock-in using ODF document 
formats. The competitive formats are implemented not fully or with 
deliberate errors 
Is this also true if you use MS 1997~2003 .doc format?  And if not, 
then why not use that format?


--doug



Every MSO will work fine with .doc from 2003 through 2013.
Most FOSS packages work well with it as well.

For me, if I need to deal with MSO users, 99% should have 2003 or later 
so I am 99% sure that any .doc file will work fine with their version of 
MSO.  I do not send .docx in case the user runs 2003. That is where I 
stopped getting MSO.


I have a lady who sends me, and everyone else her .docx files that are 
unreadable by anyone that does not have the newest MSO. Since she does 
not want anyone to edit it, I told her about using PDF file instead, or 
at least .doc files.


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility LO/MSO

[Ken Springer]

On 5/5/13 12:20 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

Check the voracity for yourself


Hungry, Tom?LOL   Sorry, I couldn't resist!

--
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Mac OS X 10.8.3
Firefox 20.0
Thunderbird 17.0.5
LibreOffice 4.0.1.2


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility LO/MSO

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Dohh!  You are right.  I did get the wrong word!!  I was trying to be too 
clever and tripped over my own shoe-laces.  I think i meant veracity but i'm 
not even sure that is correct now.  


Hmmm, pizza and wine does sound like a good plan now you mention it! :)
Thanks and regards from 

Tom :)  







 From: Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com
To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Sunday, 5 May 2013, 20:43
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility LO/MSO
 

On 5/5/13 12:20 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
 Check the voracity for yourself

Hungry, Tom?    LOL   Sorry, I couldn't resist!

-- 
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.3
Firefox 20.0
Thunderbird 17.0.5
LibreOffice 4.0.1.2


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[libreoffice-users] Re: compatibility with openoffice on a rtf file

[Andreas Säger]

Am 31.08.2012 09:55, zig wrote:

I solved the problem following the advise of the first answer (save the
document as .doc) and it is readable in LO,OO and Word.
If you think it can be useful I can post a bug-report
Thanks


No, I don't think it would be useful. There is no way to implement all 
the rtf variations of the past with reasonable effort.
ODF is the compatibility format of the future if MS supports ODF half as 
good as promised for their latest office suite. ODF is stable, well 
documented and it has been designed with compatibility in mind.
For co-operation with older MSOffice versions, doc/xls is the best (but 
not perfect) choice.
For compatibility with all desktop systems, PDF is the export format 
which guarantees a perfect print out regardless of the creating application.





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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: compatibility with openoffice on a rtf file

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
+1
Pdf is the best for making sure things look exactly the same on any system, 
with any program.  It is not editable tho so it's not so great for 
collaborative work.  

Doc is possibly the best for collaborative work but because it's a 
word-processor format it may look a little different on each different machine 
depending on printers set-up and all sorts of other variables.  

DocX is well worth avoiding if possible.  Odf is stable and is beginning to 
take over from Doc but it's not quite used widely enough just yet and i think 
most people would expect it to be a couple of years although at the rate things 
are going it could be widely adopted sooner.  

So, quite often it's worth sending both a Doc and a Pdf so that people can get 
the best of both worlds.
Regards from
Tom :)  







 From: Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de
To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Friday, 31 August 2012, 11:16
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: compatibility with openoffice on a rtf file
 
Am 31.08.2012 09:55, zig wrote:
 I solved the problem following the advise of the first answer (save the
 document as .doc) and it is readable in LO,OO and Word.
 If you think it can be useful I can post a bug-report
 Thanks

No, I don't think it would be useful. There is no way to implement all the rtf 
variations of the past with reasonable effort.
ODF is the compatibility format of the future if MS supports ODF half as good 
as promised for their latest office suite. ODF is stable, well documented and 
it has been designed with compatibility in mind.
For co-operation with older MSOffice versions, doc/xls is the best (but not 
perfect) choice.
For compatibility with all desktop systems, PDF is the export format which 
guarantees a perfect print out regardless of the creating application.




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Re: [libreoffice-users] RE: Compatibility problems between LO Calc and EXCEL 2007 and 2010 (XLSX)

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Sadly i think that without read/write for the most commonly used file-formats 
it 
would be almost completely impossible to get LibreOffice out there.  Hopefully 
as people get used to using LibreOffice they begin to find the native formats 
are much better.  As LibreOffice and others become more widely used then the 
better formats will become more widely used.  But to demand that everyne 
switches in order to use LibreOffice is more likely to result in people just 
continuing to use proprietary stuff because that's what 'everyone else' uses.
Regards from
Tom :)





From: Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Tue, 23 August, 2011 16:21:11
Subject: [libreoffice-users] RE: Compatibility problems between LO Calc and 
EXCEL 2007 and 2010 (XLSX)

In my honest opinion, write support for OOXML is a mistake. LibreOffice
should not help spreading a file format which has been bribed through the
standardization boards for 2 reasons: fight the ODF standard and establish a
non-free XML format for MS applications only.
Microsoft's Office Open XML restores a certain level of incompatibility
while having something with open and office and XML in the name
anyway.

What MS 2007 produces by default is the extended version of OOXML. It
represents Microsoft's conception of an office document beyond any standard.
With Office 2010 they started supporting the official OOXML version which
they bribed through the boards but even that one is an incredibly
complicated mess, impossible to implement by anybody except Microsoft.

MS Office 2007 introduced a lot of new features tailored to the new file
formats, and of course the new file formats can represent these new features
where the old binary formats must fail to do so. 
So the new file format may store things that can not be exposed by any
software other than resent MS Office versions whereas the old binary format
supports almost the same feature set as ODF (after 20 years of
co-evolution).
As long as MS Office comes with the same binary file filters as in Office
XP, there is no technical reason to exchange OOXML documents between
LibreOffice and MS software. 


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[libreoffice-users] RE: Compatibility problems between LO Calc and EXCEL 2007 and 2010 (XLSX)

[Andreas Säger]

In my honest opinion, write support for OOXML is a mistake. LibreOffice
should not help spreading a file format which has been bribed through the
standardization boards for 2 reasons: fight the ODF standard and establish a
non-free XML format for MS applications only.
Microsoft's Office Open XML restores a certain level of incompatibility
while having something with open and office and XML in the name
anyway.

What MS 2007 produces by default is the extended version of OOXML. It
represents Microsoft's conception of an office document beyond any standard.
With Office 2010 they started supporting the official OOXML version which
they bribed through the boards but even that one is an incredibly
complicated mess, impossible to implement by anybody except Microsoft.

MS Office 2007 introduced a lot of new features tailored to the new file
formats, and of course the new file formats can represent these new features
where the old binary formats must fail to do so. 
So the new file format may store things that can not be exposed by any
software other than resent MS Office versions whereas the old binary format
supports almost the same feature set as ODF (after 20 years of
co-evolution).
As long as MS Office comes with the same binary file filters as in Office
XP, there is no technical reason to exchange OOXML documents between
LibreOffice and MS software. 


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OT Re: [libreoffice-users] RE: Compatibility problems between LO Calc and EXCEL 2007 and 2010 (XLSX)

[Cor Nouws]

Andreas Säger wrote (23-08-11 17:21)

In my honest opinion, write support for OOXML is a mistake. LibreOffice
should not help spreading a file format which has been bribed through the
standardization boards for 2 reasons: fight the ODF standard and establish a
non-free XML format for MS applications only.


I agree with all your objections against OOXML and the whole process.
However, also without it being forced through procedures, we would have 
been confronted with it anyway :-\


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Re: OT Re: [libreoffice-users] RE: Compatibility problems between LO Calc and EXCEL 2007 and 2010 (XLSX)

[Andreas Säger]

Cor Nouws wrote:
 Andreas Säger wrote (23-08-11 17:21) In my honest opinion, write support
 for OOXML is a mistake. LibreOffice should not help spreading a file
 format which has been bribed through the standardization boards for 2
 reasons: fight the ODF standard and establish a non-free XML format for
 MS applications only.I agree with all your objections against OOXML and
 the whole process.However, also without it being forced through
 procedures, we would have been confronted with it anyway :-\-- 
Confronted, indeed. But the former go-oo team did not take up with that
confrontation when they added the abililty to generate OOXML. A best of
breed read-only support would have been sufficient since we have a 15 year
old mature exchange format.
Every OOXML generator helps to spread this pestilence of a file format.
Read-only access does not harm anyone.

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Re: OT Re: [libreoffice-users] RE: Compatibility problems between LO Calc and EXCEL 2007 and 2010 (XLSX)

[Cor Nouws]

Andreas Säger wrote (23-08-11 20:44)

Read-only access does not harm anyone.


Unless you have to co-operate and OOMXL is expected.
(You may ask yourself if you want to work in such a situation in the 
first place, but well, the world and office apps do not end now or next 
year... will be there in 5 and probably 10 too)


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Re: OT Re: [libreoffice-users] RE: Compatibility problems between LO Calc and EXCEL 2007 and 2010 (XLSX)

[Andreas Säger]

Currently there is no application which handles OOXML but not the binary
doc/xls/ppt. You can send binaries and they will open in WinWord without
problem.
There may be very, very rare cases where XML processors handle the document
rather than WinWord. Well, I think that not handling these rare cases is
better than spreading the desease.

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Re: OT Re: [libreoffice-users] RE: Compatibility problems between LO Calc and EXCEL 2007 and 2010 (XLSX)

[Cor Nouws]

Andreas Säger wrote (23-08-11 21:07)

Currently there is no application which handles OOXML but not the binary
doc/xls/ppt. You can send binaries and they will open in WinWord without
problem.
There may be very, very rare cases where XML processors handle the document
rather than WinWord. Well, I think that not handling these rare cases is
better than spreading the desease.


I would have the feeling that we can broaden our user base by supporting 
that too. But honestly: I have no scientific prove to support my or 
reject your idea.



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Re: OT Re: [libreoffice-users] RE: Compatibility problems between LO Calc and EXCEL 2007 and 2010 (XLSX)

[Andreas Säger]

Cor Nouws wrote:
 
 Andreas Säger wrote (23-08-11 21:07)
 Currently there is no application which handles OOXML but not the binary
 doc/xls/ppt. You can send binaries and they will open in WinWord without
 problem.
 There may be very, very rare cases where XML processors handle the
 document
 rather than WinWord. Well, I think that not handling these rare cases is
 better than spreading the desease.
 
 I would have the feeling that we can broaden our user base by supporting 
 that too. But honestly: I have no scientific prove to support my or 
 reject your idea.
 
Nothing scientific neither, but interesting reading:
http://www.robweir.com/blog/2011/01/microsoft-remove-doc-format-support.html

In the past 2 years I received quite a few Excel/WinWord files. None of them
was OOXML.

Completely free ODF support for MSOffice is the the way to go:
http://www.osor.eu/news/danish-hospital-hassle-free-use-of-odf-across-competing-office-suites
The old Sun plugin for MS Office is still downloadable for free. It
resembles OOo 3.2 which should be still close to perfect.

I'm afraid it is too late by now. Go-OO/LibO gave up the fight long before
OOXML entered the scene. Withdrawal of OOXML export is not an option
anymore.

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[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility 2

[NoOp]

On 04/20/2011 07:21 AM, planas wrote:
...
 The only time I have ever see an office suite removed is when I used the
 Ubuntu repository to install LO, OOo was removed by the OS. This is a
 Linux only issue when using the repository. I do not know if other Linux
 distros do this. If you installed LO without using the Ubuntu software
 management you can install LO along side OOo. The installation of other
 suites (KOffice in Linux) or office software does not affect LO in
 Linux. 

And therein lies the problem with the Ubuntu PPA and everything
associated with it. Hence the reason why you should just install
directly from http://www.libreoffice.org/download/

Anyone that is foolish enough to follow the advise on
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LibreOffice
should have their head examined.  Not only does Fabian Rodriguez advise
against using the LO debs:

quote
If you're using Ubuntu, don't install LibreOffice manually from the
.deb files available at LibreOffice.org. Otherwise you will not get
automatic updates  upgrades when new versions come out and you will be
missing the integration to Ubuntu. Using official packages also ensures
you get the best assistance from the community as this is the
recommended method to install  use LibreOffice in Ubuntu.
/quote

He then goes on to advise this:
quote
Please note OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice don't coexist. Install
LibreOffice following these instructions will effectively remove
OpenOffice.org.
/quote

Now, if you are of a mind to muck about with the Ubuntu PPA's and wish
to help them troubleshoot the mess, be my guest  have at it.

Also notice:
https://launchpad.net/~libreoffice/+archive/ppa
  https://bugs.launchpad.net/~libreoffice
has zaro bugs. This is because all of the Ubuntu users that have
installed this PPA version wind up reporting the bugs in the standard LO
or Unbuntu OOo. Fabian neglects to mention that the Ubuntu related bugs
should be filed here instead:
https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice
or is it:
https://launchpad.net/~libreoffice/+archive/ppa
For questions and bugs with software in this PPA please contact
LibreOffice Packaging.
https://launchpad.net/~libreoffice
  https://bugs.launchpad.net/~libreoffice

Just install from LO unless you are using Ubuntu Natty (aka the next
linux Vista) 11.04 and be done with it.


...


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility 2

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
There seems to be an assumption that MS Office would be un-installed or that 
people would be forced to stop using MS Office and that the change would have 
to 
be implemented 'overnight'.  None of that assumption is valid.

People could and probably would continue to use MS Office but would gain access 
to the extra functionality offered in LibreOffice.  This is much the same as 
Adobe Acrobat Writer which office workers are often expected to install or 
upgrade in order to read pdf.

Pdf is dominant on websites as THE way that documents are available for 
download.  Often there is a download link nearby in case anyone has not got the 
latest version.  People seem to consider it completely normal to have to 
download and update Acrobat but it doesn't stop them using MS Office.

Regards from
Tom :)






From: Glenn glenns...@gmail.com
To: users@libreoffice.org
Sent: Wed, 20 April, 2011 8:35:14
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility 2

All,

I agree with many  to a large extent.

You can't expect business to be smart enough or even care
enough to act in the best interest of their customers.  The
right thing is never thoroughly examined, much less even
considered, and the paying user is thereby cheated.

Glenn

inOn 4/19/11 7:08 AM, Ken Springer wrote:
 On 4/19/11 4:57 AM, t...@iafrica.com wrote:
 
 You simply cannot expect a commercial concern who have already spent a 
 fortune 
on MS
 licences to download and use LibO just because I want to send them an 
non-standard slide
 show. They won't change therefore if I want the business I have to end 
 of 
story.
 
 This is generally my thought/point about MS and the lack of willingness of 
 big 
business to abandon Windows XP for Vista and/or Windows 7.
 
 If you want a business to change to a different OS and/or software package, 
 you 
are going to have to provide something business sees as a smart, cost 
effective 
change.
 
 Being free just doesn't cut it, since that doesn't take into the account the 
number of paid manhours it would take to make the swap, a swap which would 
include training, and being able to access years of company records.
 
 Ken
 

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[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility 2

[Ken Springer]

On 4/20/11 5:05 AM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
There seems to be an assumption that MS Office would be un-installed or that
people would be forced to stop using MS Office and that the change would have to
be implemented 'overnight'.  None of that assumption is valid.


Agreed, it would be a gradual change, but it would change.  Having two 
office suites installed means more work for IT support for the program 
and it's features, plus supporting the interchange of files.  And, you 
will always have those users who will not make a voluntary switch from 
old to new until forced, causing continuing difficulty is sharing files. 
 I'm not IT, but been there done that when the switch was made from 
WordPerfect (the better program IMO) to MS Word.



People could and probably would continue to use MS Office but would gain access
to the extra functionality offered in LibreOffice.  This is much the same as
Adobe Acrobat Writer which office workers are often expected to install or
upgrade in order to read pdf.

Pdf is dominant on websites as THE way that documents are available for
download.  Often there is a download link nearby in case anyone has not got the
latest version.  People seem to consider it completely normal to have to
download and update Acrobat but it doesn't stop them using MS Office.


I suspect no one considers having a special program to read PDF's as 
being strange is because only recently have office suites started to 
be able to read and create PDF files.


I haven't used MS Office for a long time now, but if memory serves, 2003 
can't do anything with them, 2007 can only create.  I don't know about 2010.


I've not done any kind of comparison, but I'd bet no office suite can 
match the features of Adobe Reader 9.  And I'd bet 10 has even more 
features.  So, until the office suites can meet or exceed Reader's 
abilities to work with PDF files, there's going to be a separate program 
to read and manipulate them, plus Acrobat or similar to create them.



Ken


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility 2

[Ken Springer]

On 4/19/11 4:57 AM, t...@iafrica.com wrote:


You simply cannot expect a commercial concern who have already spent a fortune 
on MS
licences to download and use LibO just because I want to send them an 
non-standard slide
show. They won't change therefore if I want the business I have to end of 
story.


This is generally my thought/point about MS and the lack of willingness 
of big business to abandon Windows XP for Vista and/or Windows 7.


If you want a business to change to a different OS and/or software 
package, you are going to have to provide something business sees as a 
smart, cost effective change.


Being free just doesn't cut it, since that doesn't take into the account 
the number of paid manhours it would take to make the swap, a swap which 
would include training, and being able to access years of company records.




Ken


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility

[Glenn]

Hi,

Yes. I  suppose it must be BootCamp.  I have used an iMAC for so long, I 
guess I forget.
I apologize for the confusion.  I'll look into it further before 
troubling you anymore.


Glenn

What might have been is an abstraction
Remaining a perpetual possibility
Only in a world of speculation.
T. S. Eliot, Four Quartets

On 4/18/11 10:21 AM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 4/18/11 8:11 AM, Glenn wrote:


iMAC has an automatic, separate partition to do so, or for any OS other
than MS for that matter. Use iMAC's Unix version or Ubuntu.
It doesn't matter. MAC and Unix are better!


This has me totally confused.  I also have an iMac.

Are you referring to using Boot Camp when you say automatic, separate 
partition?

Ken

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[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility

[Ken Springer]

On 4/18/11 8:59 AM, Glenn wrote:

Hi,

Yes. I suppose it must be BootCamp. I have used an iMAC for so long, I
guess I forget.
I apologize for the confusion. I'll look into it further before
troubling you anymore.

Glenn


It was no trouble for me, in fact, it was a good thing.

I never used Boot Camp myself, as I wanted my Windows to run side by 
side with OS X, so I always used Parallels Desktop.


But I've been wanting to give some distro of Linux a good try, and your 
post got me to wondering...  Maybe I can use the Boot Camp ability and 
install Linux instead of Windows.  I have dedicated Windows boxes.



Ken



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[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility

[Wayne Borean]

Reverse experience here. I stopped doing maintenance on my computers after I
dumped Windows. Best move I ever made, it freed up a ton of time for more
productive things.

As to Microsoft giving us universal communications - horse manure. It was
MicroPro that did that, with WordStar, back when the most advanced Microsoft
editor was EDLIN.COM

Wayne



On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 3:26 AM, t...@iafrica.com wrote:

 Do not forget that MS Op Systems and Office apps gave us universal
 communication. Apart
 from the occasional blue screen, my XP runs without hassle. With Linux I
 get the feeling that
 like dedicated lovers of Series 2 Landrovers, you have to be seriously
 technical and keep
 your spanners with you at all times.

 I long for the day I can use LibO, knowing any document I create can be
 read by business
 colleagues world-wide on MS systems.

 Right now that's not the case, for example each time I send an Impress file
 to an MS PP user
 and it blows up it further demonstrates the gulf that currently exists
 between open and closed
 systems.

 Much as though I detest the latest edition of powerpoint and it's anal GUI,
 I have no choice
 but to use it I can't afford the time to write in Impress and then
 spend a day trying to make
 it work in PP.

 If you really want to hurt Uncle Bob then LibO must get it's act to
 together asap and ensure
 all LibO office apps are compatible to the extent that it allows trouble
 free document
 exchange between the open and closed systems.

 That way the MS user brigade will get confidence and hopefully may switch
 over... but until
 that day then Uncle Bob will rule the roost.

 Maybe someone can answer this? when will a LibO developer(s) focus on
 compatibility
 between MS and LibO and realise the way to sink MS is to prove
 reliability and
 compatibility in LibO.

 Meantime will someone please resolve why Impress (slides) with embedded
 sound files
 loses them when trying to convert to ppt? In addition why LibO Impress can
 sometimes lose
 the audiofile links (to MP3 files) all on it's own! without any help from
 PP,

 Meantime i try and use LibO as much as is practical but am forced to use MS
 office
 whenever it's for distribution.

 Sad.


 Timi




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[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility

[Wayne Borean]

Um, yes, the thread is messed up. Never used Parallels or Boot Camp myself,
but I have had good success with Virtual Box from Oracle/Sun. It's a bit
tricky the first go around, but once you get used to it, it's really neat,
and you can run as many different operating systems as you have disk space
for. At one time when I was really feeling insane I had 20 different Virtual
Machines set up.

Ended up deleting most of them - let's face it. No one has the time to run
20 different virtual machines :) But you can do it. And Virtual Box comes in
Linux, OS X, Windows, and BSD versions, so you can use the same program on
different boxes.

Just like LO/OO.

Wayne

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[libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility

[Ken Springer]

On 4/18/11 12:06 PM, Wayne Borean wrote:

Ken,

Agreed. But for testing, it's perfect.

Wayne


No argument there.  I ran XP Pro via Parallels side by side for about a 
year and a half until I had some of the Mac figured out.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility

[Glenn]

Yep!

In the last 8 years since switching to iMAC, I have only had about 4
fixes to apply (including release upgrades).

Occasional blue screens are unacceptable if you have work to do.
I do not use LibreOffice to the same extent some users on this forum do.
So I cannot speak on that.  LibreOffice does what I need it to do.

Glenn

On 4/18/11 1:43 PM, Wayne Borean wrote:

Reverse experience here. I stopped doing maintenance on my computers after I
dumped Windows. Best move I ever made, it freed up a ton of time for more
productive things.

As to Microsoft giving us universal communications - horse manure. It was
MicroPro that did that, with WordStar, back when the most advanced Microsoft
editor was EDLIN.COM

Wayne



On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 3:26 AM,t...@iafrica.com  wrote:


Do not forget that MS Op Systems and Office apps gave us universal
communication. Apart
from the occasional blue screen, my XP runs without hassle. With Linux I
get the feeling that
like dedicated lovers of Series 2 Landrovers, you have to be seriously
technical and keep
your spanners with you at all times.

I long for the day I can use LibO, knowing any document I create can be
read by business
colleagues world-wide on MS systems.

Right now that's not the case, for example each time I send an Impress file
to an MS PP user
and it blows up it further demonstrates the gulf that currently exists
between open and closed
systems.

Much as though I detest the latest edition of powerpoint and it's anal GUI,
I have no choice
but to use it I can't afford the time to write in Impress and then
spend a day trying to make
it work in PP.

If you really want to hurt Uncle Bob then LibO must get it's act to
together asap and ensure
all LibO office apps are compatible to the extent that it allows trouble
free document
exchange between the open and closed systems.

That way the MS user brigade will get confidence and hopefully may switch
over... but until
that day then Uncle Bob will rule the roost.

Maybe someone can answer this? when will a LibO developer(s) focus on
compatibility
between MS and LibO and realise the way to sink MS is to prove
reliability and
compatibility in LibO.

Meantime will someone please resolve why Impress (slides) with embedded
sound files
loses them when trying to convert to ppt? In addition why LibO Impress can
sometimes lose
the audiofile links (to MP3 files) all on it's own! without any help from
PP,

Meantime i try and use LibO as much as is practical but am forced to use MS
office
whenever it's for distribution.

Sad.


Timi






--
Glenn

What might have been is an abstraction
Remaining a perpetual possibility
Only in a world of speculation.
T. S. Eliot, Four Quartets


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility

[Glenn]

Hi,

If memory serves me correctly, iMAC's Unix kernel IS Linux.
MAC OS X is absolutely built on top of a Unix kernel from NextStep.
Mr. Jobs seems to have seen to that in OS X.  That's the main
reason OS X is so stable.

Nothing to install if using BootCamp!  I just haven't played
with it in a while.  A long while...

Glenn
What might have been is an abstraction
Remaining a perpetual possibility
Only in a world of speculation.
T. S. Eliot, Four Quartets

On 4/18/11 11:37 AM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 4/18/11 8:59 AM, Glenn wrote:

Hi,

Yes. I suppose it must be BootCamp. I have used an iMAC for so long, I
guess I forget.
I apologize for the confusion. I'll look into it further before
troubling you anymore.

Glenn


It was no trouble for me, in fact, it was a good thing.

I never used Boot Camp myself, as I wanted my Windows to run side by 
side with OS X, so I always used Parallels Desktop.


But I've been wanting to give some distro of Linux a good try, and 
your post got me to wondering...  Maybe I can use the Boot Camp 
ability and install Linux instead of Windows.  I have dedicated 
Windows boxes.



Ken






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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)

Mac is developed from a Bsd.  Both Bsd and Linux are re-writes of Unix and use 
many of the same programs and same systems.  There are differences in their 
philosophies and kernel but that is just me being pedantic.
Regards from
Tom :)





From: Glenn glenns...@gmail.com
To: users@libreoffice.org
Sent: Mon, 18 April, 2011 20:37:12
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Compatibility

Hi,

If memory serves me correctly, iMAC's Unix kernel IS Linux.
MAC OS X is absolutely built on top of a Unix kernel from NextStep.
Mr. Jobs seems to have seen to that in OS X.  That's the main
reason OS X is so stable.

Nothing to install if using BootCamp!  I just haven't played
with it in a while.  A long while...

Glenn
What might have been is an abstraction
Remaining a perpetual possibility
Only in a world of speculation.
T. S. Eliot, Four Quartets

On 4/18/11 11:37 AM, Ken Springer wrote:
 On 4/18/11 8:59 AM, Glenn wrote:
 Hi,
 
 Yes. I suppose it must be BootCamp. I have used an iMAC for so long, I
 guess I forget.
 I apologize for the confusion. I'll look into it further before
 troubling you anymore.
 
 Glenn
 
 It was no trouble for me, in fact, it was a good thing.
 
 I never used Boot Camp myself, as I wanted my Windows to run side by side 
 with 
OS X, so I always used Parallels Desktop.
 
 But I've been wanting to give some distro of Linux a good try, and your post 
got me to wondering...  Maybe I can use the Boot Camp ability and install 
Linux 
instead of Windows.  I have dedicated Windows boxes.
 
 
 Ken
 
 
 


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