I'll just note that you are not alone in questioning the wisdom of the
current directions. (Yeah, plural. That's part of the problem.)
Not alone in your frustrations, either.
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--- On Fri, 2012/3/23, Bryn M. Reeves b...@redhat.com wrote:
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On 03/23/2012 07:38 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
systemctl restart httpd.service is a joke compared with service
httpd restart - a msart developer would have made .service as
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On 03/27/2012 12:12 PM, 夜神 岩男 wrote:
That is not optimization, that is interface design. The two are
entirely different. The premature optimization bit is about
choosing implementation clarity (expression) at the expense of
execution speed over
Reindl Harald wrote:
the answer to a question was system-config-services
I must confess that I was not aware of this program.
In general I've found system-config-* programs -
in particular system-config-printer and system-config-network -
are more likely to cause problems than solve them.
In
On 25/03/12 10:05, Timothy Murphy wrote:
Reindl Harald wrote:
However, I just tried the program on my Fedora-16/KDE laptop,
and it seems to be less than the complete answer.
Enable, Disable and Start are greyed out on my system,
and there does not appear to be a Status tab.
Not fully
Am 25.03.2012 11:05, schrieb Timothy Murphy:
Reindl Harald wrote:
the answer to a question was system-config-services
I must confess that I was not aware of this program.
In general I've found system-config-* programs -
in particular system-config-printer and system-config-network -
Frank Murphy wrote:
Not fully finalised but try:
yum install systemd-gtk
It's a gui to the whole systemd thing.
I yum-installed this, but couldn't see how to run it.
(It didn't appear to make any difference to system-config-services.)
--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 14:11, Timothy Murphy gayle...@alice.it wrote:
Not fully finalised but try:
yum install systemd-gtk
It's a gui to the whole systemd thing.
I yum-installed this, but couldn't see how to run it.
(It didn't appear to make any difference to system-config-services.)
$
On 03/25/2012 02:48 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
as said i pointed not out the program, i was only angry that
Joe Zeff does not shut up with his Not all Fedora users run
Gnome to prove again his absent knowledge of anything
Although you are a very knowledgeable person, you're also an arrogant,
Dr. Michael J. Chudobiak wrote:
How they were started does not seem to have much to do with chkconfig.
The init system used a series of hard-coded numbers in the init scripts
to judge which services were to be started in which sequence, which was
a horrible mess.
You had to make sure the
On Fri, 2012-03-23 at 10:37 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 03/23/2012 05:27 AM, Craig White wrote:
no - if command line syntax/invocations are challenging, you can do this
rather simply via the 'system-config-services' gui.
Assuming, of course, that your DE has something like that. Not all
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 06:18:45 -0700 Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com
wrote:
On Fri, 2012-03-23 at 10:37 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 03/23/2012 05:27 AM, Craig White wrote:
no - if command line syntax/invocations are challenging, you can do this
rather simply via the
On Sat, 2012-03-24 at 08:24 -0500, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 06:18:45 -0700 Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com
wrote:
On Fri, 2012-03-23 at 10:37 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 03/23/2012 05:27 AM, Craig White wrote:
no - if command line syntax/invocations are challenging,
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 06:43:11 -0700 Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com
wrote:
On Sat, 2012-03-24 at 08:24 -0500, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 06:18:45 -0700 Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com
wrote:
On Fri, 2012-03-23 at 10:37 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 03/23/2012 05:27
On 03/24/2012 06:18 AM, Craig White wrote:
No - but I was assuming that a Fedora user would at least at least have
enough sense to try running system-config-services before jumping to any
conclusions and thus find out that it is an executable that will run
irrespective of the DE.
My finding it
Am 24.03.2012 19:30, schrieb Joe Zeff:
On 03/24/2012 06:18 AM, Craig White wrote:
No - but I was assuming that a Fedora user would at least at least have
enough sense to try running system-config-services before jumping to any
conclusions and thus find out that it is an executable that will
On 03/24/2012 11:38 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
how does this matter?
It means that if I already have the program I have no way of knowing if
it's DE agnostic, or simply left over from when I used Gnome.
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Am 24.03.2012 19:49, schrieb Joe Zeff:
On 03/24/2012 11:38 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
how does this matter?
It means that if I already have the program I have no way of knowing if it's
DE
agnostic, or simply left over from when I used Gnome
what is DE agnostic? you will not believe it
On 03/24/2012 11:53 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
what is DE agnostic? you will not believe it but you can even make
yum install gftp gedit on KDE systems
Yes, by bringing in whatever Gnome packages it needs. DE agnostic
doesn't care what the DE is because it doesn't need any support packages
On Sat, 2012-03-24 at 11:30 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 03/24/2012 06:18 AM, Craig White wrote:
No - but I was assuming that a Fedora user would at least at least have
enough sense to try running system-config-services before jumping to any
conclusions and thus find out that it is an
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 24.03.2012 19:49, schrieb Joe Zeff:
On 03/24/2012 11:38 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
how does this matter?
It means that if I already have the program I have no way of knowing if it's DE
agnostic, or simply left over from when I used Gnome
what is
On 03/24/2012 06:27 PM, Craig White wrote:
regardless of whatever DE you choose, packages run because the necessary
libs are installed.
Yes. I know. I also know that I can install Gnome-centric programs
without pulling in other parts of Gnome because they're already
installed. Thus, it's
On 03/24/2012 06:40 PM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
As a rule, someone who says whatever-agnostic means whatever-apathetic.
Possibly referring to it as DE indifferent would be best.
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Am 25.03.2012 04:00, schrieb Joe Zeff:
On 03/24/2012 06:40 PM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
As a rule, someone who says whatever-agnostic means whatever-apathetic.
Possibly referring to it as DE indifferent would be best.
why do you not realize that all your stiff is off-topic?
the answer to a
Am 23.03.2012 03:36, schrieb Craig White:
The move to grub2 systemd/systemctl really has nothing to do with the
user command line interface which you should already understand since
you said you understand the motivations.
right - and that is why hey need not to be hanged in the
first
Joe Zeff wrote:
Incidentally, none of the systemctl advocates has answered my query:
How do I say chkconfig openvpn on in systemctl-speak?
I'm not that fond of systemctl, but I can help with this:
systemctl start openvpn.service
will start it running and
systemctl enable
On 03/23/2012 05:26 PM, Timothy Murphy wrote:
Joe Zeff wrote:
Incidentally, none of the systemctl advocates has answered my query:
How do I say chkconfig openvpn on in systemctl-speak?
I'm not that fond of systemctl, but I can help with this:
systemctl start openvpn.service
will start it
Am 23.03.2012 10:26, schrieb Timothy Murphy:
[tim@blanche ~]$ sudo systemctl start openvpn.service
Failed to issue method call: Unit openvpn.service failed to load: No such
file or directory. See system logs and 'systemctl status openvpn.service'
for details.
[tim@blanche ~]$ sudo
Craig White wrote:
The goal is that the typical user would never actually interact with
grub (grub2) or systemctl from the command line at all. Grub
manipulations occurring when kernels are installed or removed, systemctl
commands can be handled via 'system-config'services'
That sounds
On 03/23/2012 05:26 PM, Timothy Murphy wrote:
Joe Zeff wrote:
Incidentally, none of the systemctl advocates has answered my query:
How do I say chkconfig openvpn on in systemctl-speak?
I'm not that fond of systemctl, but I can help with this:
systemctl start openvpn.service
will start it
The goal is that the typical user would never actually interact with
grub (grub2) or systemctl from the command line at all. Grub
manipulations occurring when kernels are installed or removed, systemctl
commands can be handled via 'system-config'services'
Thats one of the diseases Fedora
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On 03/23/2012 07:38 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
systemctl restart httpd.service is a joke compared with service
httpd restart - a msart developer would have made .service as
default-fallback and only httpd.socket as example would need full
qualified
Am 23.03.2012 11:52, schrieb Bryn M. Reeves:
On 03/23/2012 07:38 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
systemctl restart httpd.service is a joke compared with service
httpd restart - a msart developer would have made .service as
default-fallback and only httpd.socket as example would need full
qualified
On 03/22/2012 04:41 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 03/22/2012 01:26 PM, Timothy Murphy wrote:
Incidentally, none of the systemctl advocates has answered my query:
How do I say chkconfig openvpn on in systemctl-speak?
I'm not that fond of systemctl, but I can help with this:
systemctl enable
How they were started does not seem to have much to do with chkconfig.
The init system used a series of hard-coded numbers in the init scripts
to judge which services were to be started in which sequence, which was
a horrible mess.
You had to make sure the service X's priority of 37 was in
On Fri, 2012-03-23 at 10:39 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:
Craig White wrote:
The goal is that the typical user would never actually interact with
grub (grub2) or systemctl from the command line at all. Grub
manipulations occurring when kernels are installed or removed, systemctl
commands
On Fri, 2012-03-23 at 08:17 -0400, Dr. Michael J. Chudobiak wrote:
On 03/22/2012 04:41 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 03/22/2012 01:26 PM, Timothy Murphy wrote:
Incidentally, none of the systemctl advocates has answered my query:
How do I say chkconfig openvpn on in systemctl-speak?
I'm not
On 03/23/2012 08:32 AM, Craig White wrote:
As TM has been told elsewhere in this thread, this doesn't work for
openvpn, because of its need for a pointer to a specific configuration
file - you have to make a manual link, or use some other odd syntax.
This is definitely a weird quirk that is not
Am 23.03.2012 13:58, schrieb Dr. Michael J. Chudobiak:
On 03/23/2012 08:32 AM, Craig White wrote:
As TM has been told elsewhere in this thread, this doesn't work for
openvpn, because of its need for a pointer to a specific configuration
file - you have to make a manual link, or use some
On Fri, 2012-03-23 at 08:25 -0400, Dr. Michael J. Chudobiak wrote:
The init system used a series of hard-coded numbers in the init
scripts to judge which services were to be started in which sequence,
which was a horrible mess.
Yet, worked well.
You had to make sure the service X's priority
Am 23.03.2012 14:49, schrieb Tim:
But much less precise. It's all very well to say this, that, and
the other, need to start after this thing, is easier to set. But if
you definitely need this thing, followed by, this, followed by
that, followed by the other, in that precise order. Then
On 03/23/2012 01:26 AM, Dr. Michael J. Chudobiak wrote:
There is way less wonky bash scripting in the new service file, because
it is mostly declarations, rather than code. As an added bonus, the old
postgrey init script never worked properly for me (it did not kill
cleanly, no idea why), but
Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 23.03.2012 10:26, schrieb Timothy Murphy:
[tim@blanche ~]$ sudo systemctl start openvpn.service
Failed to issue method call: Unit openvpn.service failed to load: No such
file or directory. See system logs and 'systemctl status openvpn.service'
for details.
On 03/23/2012 05:27 AM, Craig White wrote:
no - if command line syntax/invocations are challenging, you can do this
rather simply via the 'system-config-services' gui.
Assuming, of course, that your DE has something like that. Not all
Fedora users run Gnome, you know.
--
users mailing list
On 23/03/12 17:37, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 03/23/2012 05:27 AM, Craig White wrote:
no - if command line syntax/invocations are challenging, you can do this
rather simply via the 'system-config-services' gui.
Assuming, of course, that your DE has something like that. Not all
Fedora users run Gnome,
Am 23.03.2012 18:42, schrieb Frank Murphy:
On 23/03/12 17:37, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 03/23/2012 05:27 AM, Craig White wrote:
no - if command line syntax/invocations are challenging, you can do this
rather simply via the 'system-config-services' gui.
Assuming, of course, that your DE has
Am 23.03.2012 18:36, schrieb Timothy Murphy:
Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 23.03.2012 10:26, schrieb Timothy Murphy:
[tim@blanche ~]$ sudo systemctl start openvpn.service
Failed to issue method call: Unit openvpn.service failed to load: No such
file or directory. See system logs and 'systemctl
Reindl Harald wrote:
most machines where systemctl is relevant do not evem have any DE
so what.
Presumably you are talking about Fedora, since you are contributing
to a Fedora newsgroup.
I would have thought an overwhelming majority of Fedora users
are running services, and also have a DE.
Am 23.03.2012 21:49, schrieb Timothy Murphy:
Reindl Harald wrote:
most machines where systemctl is relevant do not evem have any DE
so what.
Presumably you are talking about Fedora, since you are contributing
to a Fedora newsgroup.
I would have thought an overwhelming majority of
On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 10:04 AM, Timothy Murphy gayle...@alice.it wrote:
Chris Rouch wrote:
I'd agree that the systemctl syntax is clumsier. But on my machines,
the boot time has reduced dramatically.
I agree that boot time seems to have been reduced,
at a guess about 15% in my case.
On Sat, 2012-03-24 at 00:19 +1030, Tim wrote:
But much less precise. It's all very well to say this, that, and
the other, need to start after this thing, is easier to set. But
if you definitely need this thing, followed by, this, followed by
that, followed by the other, in that precise
I wonder if I am alone in finding some of the developments in Fedora-16
actually make life harder for the user?
I'd take grub2 and systemctl as two examples.
In each case I've read the documentation and understand the motivation
behind these developments.
But I remain unconvinced that the gains
On Thu, 2012-03-22 at 12:56 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:
I wonder if I am alone in finding some of the developments in Fedora-16
actually make life harder for the user?
I'd take grub2 and systemctl as two examples.
In each case I've read the documentation and understand the motivation
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On 03/22/2012 01:05 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote:
I'll say this. I recently went to read the grub2 documentation and
found this product rather obtuse and complex. As an example trying
to figure out the camparative roles of grub2-mkconfig and
On 22 March 2012 12:56, Timothy Murphy gayle...@alice.it wrote:
I wonder if I am alone in finding some of the developments in Fedora-16
actually make life harder for the user?
I'd take grub2 and systemctl as two examples.
In each case I've read the documentation and understand the motivation
On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 10:42 AM, Chris Rouch chris.ro...@gmail.com wrote:
For grub2, one of the things I like is that it picked up the windows
installation on the other disk, without any configuration on my part.
It also picks up other linux installations on a multi-boot machine.
I just wish
Am 22.03.2012 16:54, schrieb Richard Shaw:
On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 10:42 AM, Chris Rouch chris.ro...@gmail.com wrote:
For grub2, one of the things I like is that it picked up the windows
installation on the other disk, without any configuration on my part.
It also picks up other linux
On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:58:24 +0100
Reindl Harald wrote:
and yes you can ignore the # DO NOT EDIT THIS FILE
as long you do not call grub2-mkconfig which is not
needed usually
The actual abomination with grub2 is the fact that
the grub2-mkconfig tool exists. One of the main forces
that led to
Chris Rouch wrote:
I'd agree that the systemctl syntax is clumsier. But on my machines,
the boot time has reduced dramatically.
I agree that boot time seems to have been reduced,
at a guess about 15% in my case.
However, I hardly ever re-boot,
so any saving there was outweighed many times
by
On 22/03/12 16:27, Tom Horsley wrote:
Fedora should eradicate grub2-mkconfig and /etc/default/grub
and remove the do not edit this file comment so
there is really only one file to edit again and
no confusing conflicting behavior.
Grub2 direction being currently discussed
as part of this
I'd agree that the systemctl syntax is clumsier. But on my machines,
the boot time has reduced dramatically.
I still haven't discovered the equivalent of chkconfig openvpn on
under the new dispensation.
openvpn has special issues with systemd, but once you know the magic
recipe, it works
On 03/22/2012 01:04 PM, Timothy Murphy wrote:
I'd agree that the systemctl syntax is clumsier.
The CLI syntax is different, but the difference is negligible once you
are used to it.
However, the *.service file syntax is much, MUCH simpler than the old
init scripts!
An old-style
On 3/22/2012 1:04 PM, Timothy Murphy wrote:
But to return to boot-speed,
how could using systemctl be any faster than an exactly equivalent command
expressed in chkconfig terms?
from here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Systemd
systemd is a system and service manager for Linux, compatible with
Am 22.03.2012 18:37, schrieb Claude Jones:
in other words, in can start services up in parallel, instead of waiting
for each one to initiate before going to the next...
what can have the opposite effect if the disk is slow and
services are producing much disc activity at start
on most
On Thu, 22 Mar 2012, Tom Horsley wrote:
On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:58:24 +0100
Reindl Harald wrote:
and yes you can ignore the # DO NOT EDIT THIS FILE
as long you do not call grub2-mkconfig which is not
needed usually
The actual abomination with grub2 is the fact that
the grub2-mkconfig tool
On 03/22/2012 11:56 AM, Timothy Murphy wrote:
I'd take grub2 and systemctl as two examples.
In each case I've read the documentation and understand the motivation
behind these developments.
But I remain unconvinced that the gains outweigh the disadvantages
of methods that are much harder to
Claude Jones wrote:
But to return to boot-speed,
how could using systemctl be any faster than an exactly equivalent
command expressed in chkconfig terms?
in other words, in can start services up in parallel, instead of waiting
for each one to initiate before going to the next...
You
On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 22.03.2012 16:54, schrieb Richard Shaw:
On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 10:42 AM, Chris Rouch chris.ro...@gmail.com wrote:
For grub2, one of the things I like is that it picked up the windows
installation on the other
On 03/22/2012 01:26 PM, Timothy Murphy wrote:
Incidentally, none of the systemctl advocates has answered my query:
How do I say chkconfig openvpn on in systemctl-speak?
I'm not that fond of systemctl, but I can help with this:
systemctl start openvpn.service
will start it running and
On Thu, 2012-03-22 at 16:42 +0100, Chris Rouch wrote:
For grub2, one of the things I like is that it picked up the windows
installation on the other disk, without any configuration on my part.
It also picks up other linux installations on a multi-boot machine
This must be my day to be
Dr. Michael J. Chudobiak wrote:
openvpn has special issues with systemd, but once you know the magic
recipe, it works fine. See:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=744244
If your openvpn config file is /etc/openvpn/client.conf, do:
ln -s /lib/systemd/system/openvpn\@.service \
On 03/22/2012 02:04 PM, Timothy Murphy wrote:
Can you really claim that that is as easy as chkconfig openvpn on?
It takes 10 times as long to type, for a start.
No, but then, I'm not a fan of the new system.
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2012/3/22, Timothy Murphy gayle...@alice.it:
Dr. Michael J. Chudobiak wrote:
openvpn has special issues with systemd, but once you know the magic
recipe, it works fine. See:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=744244
If your openvpn config file is /etc/openvpn/client.conf, do:
ln
On Thu, 2012-03-22 at 12:56 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:
I wonder if I am alone in finding some of the developments in Fedora-16
actually make life harder for the user?
I'd take grub2 and systemctl as two examples.
In each case I've read the documentation and understand the motivation
On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 19:36:24 -0700 Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com
wrote:
The move to grub2 systemd/systemctl really has nothing to do with the
user command line interface which you should already understand since
you said you understand the motivations.
The goal is that the typical
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