Re: New logo?

2014-01-15 Thread Eric Kolotyluk
+1 On 1/13/2014 2:29 PM, John Miller wrote: Well I guess the attachment did not go through.. Thanks John

Re: New logo?

2014-01-14 Thread Stephen Connolly
As a homage to Roy's wife, may I present maven-18: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/38569278/maven-18.png?version=1modificationDate=1389695623134api=v2 On 13 January 2014 15:36, Lyons, Roy roy.ly...@cmegroup.com wrote: I asked my wife on the drive to the train today

Re: New logo?

2014-01-14 Thread Stephen Connolly
My wife had a suggestion... why not make the M in maven out of two tee pees... linking in with the Apache theme... So I present maven-19: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/38569278/maven-19.png?version=1modificationDate=1389695638903api=v2 and finding a use for the

Re: New logo?

2014-01-14 Thread Stephen Connolly
FYI: ndeloof points out http://raven.rubyforge.org/ So I think any logo with a raven in it is well and truly dead in the water On 14 January 2014 10:37, Stephen Connolly stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.comwrote: My wife had a suggestion... why not make the M in maven out of two tee pees...

Re: New logo?

2014-01-14 Thread Stephen Connolly
Putting maven-20 in context, you get: http://people.apache.org/~stephenc/maven-logo-contest/maven-20-in-context.png On 14 January 2014 10:37, Stephen Connolly stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.comwrote: My wife had a suggestion... why not make the M in maven out of two tee pees... linking in with

Re: New logo?

2014-01-14 Thread Stephen Connolly
I thought a hand-drawn font using straight lines only might look good with the teepee maven-21: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/38569278/maven-21.png?version=1modificationDate=1389701827196api=v2 On 14 January 2014 12:08, Stephen Connolly

Re: New logo?

2014-01-14 Thread Tim Pizey
That looks really nice (though I do have problems with any North American Indian references). cheers TimP On 14 January 2014 12:08, Stephen Connolly stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com wrote: Putting maven-20 in context, you get:

Re: New logo?

2014-01-14 Thread Stephen Connolly
We are Apache Maven so there is always going to be that temptation to abuse the Apache link... I would like to hear more about your objections. Keep in mind that ultimately it will come down to a vote... I'm thinking we have two rounds of voting... the first round to select the top 3 and the

Re: New logo?

2014-01-14 Thread Kristian Rosenvold
How about just using all of this + textual ideas as input for an external logo competiton ? Kristian 2014/1/14 Stephen Connolly stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com We are Apache Maven so there is always going to be that temptation to abuse the Apache link... I would like to hear more about

Re: New logo?

2014-01-14 Thread Adam Retter
Does the Apache Foundation of any of its members have any money to engage a graphical designer? I was just thinking that after the voting, you could get a designer to do a proper job on the logo (perhaps producing some variations of the voted on design which could again be voted on further?). I do

Re: New logo?

2014-01-14 Thread Stephen Connolly
I think we would have no issue getting a small amount of funding from the foundation to feed an external logo competition... but I think we would want to have some scope defined for such a competition... so yeah I see no issue with using the top 3 as seed for an external logo competition, e.g. on

Re: New logo?

2014-01-14 Thread Stephen Connolly
maven-21 in context: http://people.apache.org/~stephenc/maven-logo-contest/maven-21-in-context.png On 14 January 2014 12:18, Stephen Connolly stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.comwrote: I thought a hand-drawn font using straight lines only might look good with the teepee maven-21:

Re: New logo?

2014-01-14 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 12:08:09PM +, Stephen Connolly wrote: Putting maven-20 in context, you get: http://people.apache.org/~stephenc/maven-logo-contest/maven-20-in-context.png *Very* nice work, but...what does this Native Americans theme have to do with maven? Yes, I know, but people

Re: New logo?

2014-01-14 Thread Paul Benedict
Love this logo. Very awesome. On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Mark H. Wood mw...@iupui.edu wrote: On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 12:08:09PM +, Stephen Connolly wrote: Putting maven-20 in context, you get: http://people.apache.org/~stephenc/maven-logo-contest/maven-20-in-context.png

Re: New logo?

2014-01-14 Thread Stephen Connolly
On 14 January 2014 15:51, Mark H. Wood mw...@iupui.edu wrote: On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 12:08:09PM +, Stephen Connolly wrote: Putting maven-20 in context, you get: http://people.apache.org/~stephenc/maven-logo-contest/maven-20-in-context.png *Very* nice work, but...what does this

Re: New logo?

2014-01-14 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 12:45:18PM +, Adam Retter wrote: Does the Apache Foundation of any of its members have any money to engage a graphical designer? I was just thinking that after the voting, you could get a designer to do a proper job on the logo (perhaps producing some variations of

Re: New logo?

2014-01-14 Thread Stephen Connolly
maven-22: uses some of the imagery from the 60-seconds tutorial to form the logo https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/38569278/maven-22.png?version=1modificationDate=1389716094692api=v2 On 14 January 2014 15:55, Stephen Connolly stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.comwrote: On

Re: New logo?

2014-01-14 Thread Stephen Connolly
Maven is like a village made from tents... you can move from location to location (project to project) and you bring all the same tents (phases / conventions as to how to build a project) with you. Because we are an Apache project we chose a tent that is keeping with the stylings of the Apache

Re: New logo?

2014-01-14 Thread Stephen Connolly
And if you are not a nomadic developer (who jumps from project to project) then a lot of the benefits of Maven will seem to get in your way... once you are moving from project to project, knowing that you always have the `deploy` tent to push the results of your build to the remote repository is a

RE: New logo?

2014-01-14 Thread Will Hoover
To: Maven Users List Subject: Re: New logo? And if you are not a nomadic developer (who jumps from project to project) then a lot of the benefits of Maven will seem to get in your way... once you are moving from project to project, knowing that you always have the `deploy` tent to push the results

RE: New logo?

2014-01-14 Thread Will Hoover
Like this? http://s8.postimg.org/jdcbco351/maven5.png -Original Message- From: paulus.benedic...@gmail.com [mailto:paulus.benedic...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Paul Benedict Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 6:32 PM To: Maven Users List Subject: Re: New logo? Great logo, but yes, an orange

RE: New logo?

2014-01-13 Thread Will Hoover
I have a wiki account (whoover), but it doesn't look like I have access to edit the page. -Original Message- From: Stephen Connolly [mailto:stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 3:24 PM To: Maven Users List Subject: Re: New logo? Somebody with wiki access

Re: New logo?

2014-01-13 Thread Arnaud Héritier
To: Maven Users List Subject: Re: New logo? Somebody with wiki access will add it for you If you have a wiki account, I *should* be able to give you access to add it yourself... I'm only the flipping PMC chair like... But for the life of me I cannot find out *how* to do so :-O On Friday

Re: New logo?

2014-01-13 Thread Lyons, Roy
I asked my wife on the drive to the train today what animal she thinks fits Maven. Her response made me chuckle. Without hesitation, she said Honey Badger When I asked why, she said that Honey Badgers are part of nature and generally do their thing nicely -- but if you piss it off, things will

RE: New logo?

2014-01-13 Thread John Miller
OK saw the images and thought a combination of two looked nice. -Original Message- From: Lyons, Roy [mailto:roy.ly...@cmegroup.com] Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 8:37 AM To: Maven Users List Subject: Re: New logo? I asked my wife on the drive to the train today what animal she thinks

Re: New logo?

2014-01-13 Thread Stephen Connolly
, January 13, 2014 8:37 AM To: Maven Users List Subject: Re: New logo? I asked my wife on the drive to the train today what animal she thinks fits Maven. Her response made me chuckle. Without hesitation, she said Honey Badger When I asked why, she said that Honey Badgers are part of nature

RE: New logo?

2014-01-13 Thread John Miller
Well I guess the attachment did not go through.. ThanksJohn - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@maven.apache.org

Re: New logo?

2014-01-13 Thread Ron Wheeler
Miller john.w.mil...@oracle.com wrote: OK saw the images and thought a combination of two looked nice. -Original Message- From: Lyons, Roy [mailto:roy.ly...@cmegroup.com] Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 8:37 AM To: Maven Users List Subject: Re: New logo? I asked my wife on the drive

Re: New logo?

2014-01-13 Thread Adam Retter
My personal fear of the hat, is that it is too similar to Redhat IMHO. On 13 January 2014 22:29, John Miller john.w.mil...@oracle.com wrote: Well I guess the attachment did not go through.. [image: Maven Hat..jpg] Thanks John

Re: New logo?

2014-01-13 Thread Paul Benedict
Great logo, but yes, an orange hat too similar to red hat. If we're using an Apache feather, maybe we can use a Cowboy hat to complete the theme? On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 5:22 PM, Adam Retter adam.ret...@googlemail.comwrote: My personal fear of the hat, is that it is too similar to Redhat IMHO.

Re: New logo?

2014-01-12 Thread Robert Scholte
When letting go the idea of an animal, I came up with the following: Change the V of Maven into a funnel, feeding it with stuff (code, resources, etc), resulting in an artifact. Maybe with an assembly line full of jars below Maven. It is probably easier to make the input abstract: circles,

Re: New logo?

2014-01-12 Thread Henri Gomez
I like these : http://people.apache.org/~stephenc/maven-logo-contest/maven-5.png (stephen, maven-5) and https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/38569278/tamas-3.png?version=1modificationDate=1389301154000api=v2 (tamas3) My +0 2014/1/12 Robert Scholte rfscho...@apache.org:

Re: New logo?

2014-01-10 Thread Lyons, Roy
HAH. I like that. It makes me think of the kids toy where you put shapes into holes. http://www.toysrus.com/graphics/media/trus/Aplusplus/2012/2501235/MATTEL-25 01235-01.jpg Each block shape represents a type of output (.war, .jar, .ear, .so, .dll, .zip, .someotherextensionthatyoudreamup)

Re: New logo?

2014-01-10 Thread Kristian Rosenvold
Way cool; this toy is a nordic classic (in wood). I can see Jar War on the boxes. http://www.sprell.no/produktbilder/2013/Brio_Putteboks_rød.jpg For some reason I'm not entirely sure I understand I also enjoy the train:

Re: New logo?

2014-01-10 Thread Stephen Connolly
Do you mean something like maven-16 that I just uploaded to the contest wiki page? https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/38569278/maven-16.png?version=1modificationDate=1389373170779api=v2 On 10 January 2014 16:40, Kristian Rosenvold kristian.rosenv...@gmail.comwrote: Way

Re: New logo?

2014-01-10 Thread Arnaud Héritier
it could be seen also as a coffee machine taking beans in entry to produce a cup of java The - is that it is fully java minded while Maven tried to conquer (with few success) others platforms (C++ ...) Note : Also the coffee machine can replace some others activities while maven is building :-)

Re: New logo?

2014-01-10 Thread Stephen Connolly
On 10 January 2014 17:19, Arnaud Héritier aherit...@gmail.com wrote: it could be seen also as a coffee machine taking beans in entry to produce a cup of java The - is that it is fully java minded while Maven tried to conquer (with few success) others platforms (C++ ...) One thing that I

RE: New logo?

2014-01-10 Thread Will Hoover
...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2014 12:48 PM To: Maven Users List Subject: Re: New logo? Added in the list : https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/Logo+contest On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 6:35 PM, Will Hoover java.whoo...@gmail.com wrote: Here's a VERY rough draft of a possible

RE: New logo?

2014-01-10 Thread Will Hoover
Subject: Re: New logo? Added in the list : https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/Logo+contest On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 6:35 PM, Will Hoover java.whoo...@gmail.com wrote: Here's a VERY rough draft of a possible logo (I'm sure someone else can make it look more sleek): http://s21

Re: New logo?

2014-01-10 Thread Stephen Connolly
List Subject: Re: New logo? Added in the list : https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/Logo+contest On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 6:35 PM, Will Hoover java.whoo...@gmail.comjavascript:; wrote: Here's a VERY rough draft of a possible logo (I'm sure someone else can make it look

Re: New logo?

2014-01-09 Thread Mark H. Wood
All rather nicely done. FWIW I'm partial to #5. http://people.apache.org/~stephenc/maven-logo-contest/maven-5.png -- Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer mw...@iupui.edu Machines should not be friendly. Machines should be obedient. signature.asc Description: Digital signature

Re: New logo?

2014-01-09 Thread Curtis Rueden
Hi all, All of the logos are OK, but none of them really symbolize anything in particular about Maven. IMO the best logos encapsulate the purpose of the project somehow, either overtly, covertly or both. Here is a related article that discusses some of that:

Re: New logo?

2014-01-09 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Thu, Jan 02, 2014 at 03:53:46PM -0500, Jeffrey E Care wrote: Stephen Connolly stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com wrote on 01/02/2014 02:06:55 PM: I personally liked the anteater idea... We can ask the Ant PMC if we have a winning logo that we are worried about While some Ant folks

Re: New logo?

2014-01-09 Thread Arnaud Héritier
I agreed about the animal/mascot choice and its meaning. We come back to another thread (on dev ML AFAIR) : what Maven is for you ? How to describe it (easily) ? What is differentiating it from others tools like Makefile, ant, gradle, builder Arnaud On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Mark H.

Re: New logo?

2014-01-09 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Thu, Jan 09, 2014 at 09:32:54AM -0600, Curtis Rueden wrote: All of the logos are OK, but none of them really symbolize anything in particular about Maven. IMO the best logos encapsulate the purpose of the project somehow, either overtly, covertly or both. Good point. I was associating with

Re: New logo?

2014-01-09 Thread Stephen Connolly
The Owl is usually a symbol of wisdom, e.g. the wise owl. Maven embodies the collective wisdom of how to build software Hence why I did #5 On 9 January 2014 15:51, Mark H. Wood mw...@iupui.edu wrote: On Thu, Jan 09, 2014 at 09:32:54AM -0600, Curtis Rueden wrote: All of the logos are OK,

Re: New logo?

2014-01-09 Thread Paul Benedict
Good choice. I was hoping someone would find a picture that played off the expertise definition of the word Maven. On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Stephen Connolly stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com wrote: The Owl is usually a symbol of wisdom, e.g. the wise owl. Maven embodies the collective

Re: New logo?

2014-01-09 Thread Tamás Cservenák
About raven, is already taken: http://www.maven.co/ Some sneaky peaks for same named (but non related sites) -- just to see what others came up with: http://www.maven-sf.com/ http://lasp.colorado.edu/home/maven/ http://www.php-maven.org/ And my personal fav: http://mavenberlin.com/en Their

Re: New logo?

2014-01-09 Thread Curtis Rueden
Hi Tamás, a mountain(s), a twin peak (M), you have to climb. (and everyone finish their story, mountain might be effort, knowledge, sweat or whatever :D ) That is excellent! And gurus (a.k.a. mavens) also like to live on top of mountains. ;-) Regards, Curtis On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at

RE: New logo?

2014-01-09 Thread Will Hoover
AM To: Maven Users List Subject: Re: New logo? About raven, is already taken: http://www.maven.co/ Some sneaky peaks for same named (but non related sites) -- just to see what others came up with: http://www.maven-sf.com/ http://lasp.colorado.edu/home/maven/ http://www.php-maven.org/ And my

Re: New logo?

2014-01-09 Thread Arnaud Héritier
/maven.png -Original Message- From: t.cserve...@gmail.com [mailto:t.cserve...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Tamás Cservenák Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2014 11:33 AM To: Maven Users List Subject: Re: New logo? About raven, is already taken: http://www.maven.co/ Some sneaky peaks for same

Re: New logo?

2014-01-09 Thread Stephen Connolly
On 9 January 2014 16:32, Tamás Cservenák ta...@cservenak.net wrote: About raven, is already taken: http://www.maven.co/ Some sneaky peaks for same named (but non related sites) -- just to see what others came up with: http://www.maven-sf.com/ http://lasp.colorado.edu/home/maven/

Re: New logo?

2014-01-09 Thread Kristian Rosenvold
I think the association-work around what maven /is/ is a great way to approach a logo contest elsewhere. I have worked with some great graphic designers in my time, and the kind input the good ones want are typically related around your thoughts/feelings around the product rather than which

Re: New logo?

2014-01-05 Thread Tim Pizey
Great to see them all in one place. I like maven-12 my 2p timp On 3 January 2014 15:12, Stephen Connolly stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com wrote: I have created a wiki page to track the logo contest... https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/Logo+contest On 2 January 2014

Re: New logo?

2014-01-05 Thread Tim Pizey
I think that the associations of a raven are too dark also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBmExt184vc The moose and beaver are also laden. Maybe this is why Maven has been logo free for so long? Feels really weird to add a logo to a 13? year old project. cheers Timp On 2 January 2014 15:48,

Re: New logo?

2014-01-05 Thread Mark Derricutt
I'm favouring maven-15 here, the maven raven! Ok, it's not a raven, but maybe it should be :) heh. The bird can quite easily stand alone from the text, and be usable - overlaid, underlaid, watermarked etc better than the others IMHO ( except 14 ). I like maven-12 signature.asc Description:

Re: New logo?

2014-01-03 Thread Stephen Connolly
I have created a wiki page to track the logo contest... https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/Logo+contest On 2 January 2014 21:44, Lyons, Roy roy.ly...@cmegroup.com wrote: Lettering eh, how about comic sans? :) ... J/K btw Jason company might let you re-use the

Re: New logo?

2014-01-02 Thread Stephen Connolly
two more that I drew over the holidays: http://people.apache.org/~stephenc/maven-logo-contest/maven-12.png (in context: http://people.apache.org/~stephenc/maven-logo-contest/screenshot-12.png) http://people.apache.org/~stephenc/maven-logo-contest/maven-13.png (in context:

Re: New logo?

2014-01-02 Thread Stephen Connolly
As 9 is particularly problematic I have sketched -14 which is not a direct copy of a silhouette. This still has the issue w.r.t. other marks called maven using a silhouetted raven... http://people.apache.org/~stephenc/maven-logo-contest/maven-14.png (in context:

Re: New logo?

2014-01-02 Thread Stephen Connolly
http://people.apache.org/~stephenc/maven-logo-contest/maven-15.png On 2 January 2014 14:52, Lyons, Roy roy.ly...@cmegroup.com wrote: I was wondering if you might be able to try this with the bird flying upwards and to the right. Its a moving up and to the future instead of diving down into

Re: New logo?

2014-01-02 Thread Baptiste Mathus
Oups, forgot users list. Might be just me, but though I'm not against using a raven, I'd at least prefer the more friendly 13 one (see http://people.apache.org/~stephenc/maven-logo-contest/screenshot-13.png). I'm actually far more liking the friendly teddybear's style of the moose (

Re: New logo?

2014-01-02 Thread Adam Retter
I like that one best personally. How about something like the Albanian coat of arms? On 2 January 2014 15:11, Stephen Connolly stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com wrote: http://people.apache.org/~stephenc/maven-logo-contest/maven-15.png On 2 January 2014 14:52, Lyons, Roy roy.ly...@cmegroup.com

Re: New logo?

2014-01-02 Thread Stephen Connolly
Well I am a big fan of my moose with the internet on tap... only benson was against the moose from what I heard... However, I will do a vote-off once we get some other suggestions so that the community can decide On 2 January 2014 15:47, Baptiste Mathus bmat...@batmat.net wrote: Might be just

Re: New logo?

2014-01-02 Thread Stephen Connolly
how about you try sketching out what you mean! On 2 January 2014 16:18, Adam Retter adam.ret...@googlemail.com wrote: I like that one best personally. How about something like the Albanian coat of arms? On 2 January 2014 15:11, Stephen Connolly stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com wrote:

Re: New logo?

2014-01-02 Thread Stephen Connolly
how about you try sketching out what you mean! On 2 January 2014 16:18, Adam Retter adam.ret...@googlemail.com wrote: I like that one best personally. How about something like the Albanian coat of arms? On 2 January 2014 15:11, Stephen Connolly stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com wrote:

Re: New logo?

2014-01-02 Thread Adam Retter
I would love to, but I posses absolutely zero artistic skill. On 2 January 2014 16:28, Stephen Connolly stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com wrote: how about you try sketching out what you mean! On 2 January 2014 16:18, Adam Retter adam.ret...@googlemail.com wrote: I like that one best

Re: New logo?

2014-01-02 Thread Stephen Connolly
So what... you cannot do worse than http://people.apache.org/~stephenc/maven-logo-contest/maven.png On 2 January 2014 16:55, Adam Retter adam.ret...@googlemail.com wrote: I would love to, but I posses absolutely zero artistic skill. On 2 January 2014 16:28, Stephen Connolly

Re: New logo?

2014-01-02 Thread Stephen Connolly
I personally liked the anteater idea... We can ask the Ant PMC if we have a winning logo that we are worried about On Thursday, 2 January 2014, Robert Scholte wrote: How safe is an aardvark or armadillo compared to an AntEater? https://www.google.com/search?q=creative+animalhl=nl;

Re: New logo?

2014-01-02 Thread Adam Retter
Okay, so I bit the bullet and tried it. I based my examples on a Creative Commons image, but it should be fine as long as it is attributed. http://www.flickr.com/photos/dr_scott/4463167753/sizes/l/ http://static.adamretter.org.uk/maven-logo-example1.png and

Re: New logo?

2014-01-02 Thread Mark Derricutt
Is it me or are a lot of these purely changing the icon, not the logo. i.e. is the logo inclusive of the mAven name ( side question - why is the A always a different colour, historic Ant reference? ) On 3 Jan 2014, at 2:18, Stephen Connolly wrote: As 9 is particularly problematic I have

Re: New logo?

2014-01-02 Thread Jeffrey E Care
Stephen Connolly stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com wrote on 01/02/2014 02:06:55 PM: I personally liked the anteater idea... We can ask the Ant PMC if we have a winning logo that we are worried about While some Ant folks might appreciate the tongue-in-cheek nature of an anteater logo, I think

Re: New logo?

2014-01-02 Thread Stephen Connolly
Well our current icon is somebody's arse behind a laptop... Which with a cleaner site looks a tad odd With the old header bar it was fine though I have no issue changing the font or colouring, but I think an actual icon or emblem is something good to have. There was some effort to pick a new

Re: New logo?

2014-01-02 Thread Stephen Connolly
Nice... I like the first one for compactness too! On Thursday, 2 January 2014, Adam Retter wrote: Okay, so I bit the bullet and tried it. I based my examples on a Creative Commons image, but it should be fine as long as it is attributed.

Re: New logo?

2014-01-02 Thread Lyons, Roy
Lettering eh, how about comic sans? :) ... J/K btw Jason company might let you re-use the letting from http://blog.sonatype.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/maven1.jpg if you wanted something a little edgier and crisp. On 1/2/14 3:36 PM, Stephen Connolly stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com

Re: New logo?

2014-01-02 Thread Paul Benedict
My suggestion is for someone in the PMC to pay $29 to http://www.48hourslogo.com/ and have an extraordinary number of artists show you their logo ideas. Buy the one you like and then donate it to Apache. Paul