Re: [Users] After upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their activation against Microsoft
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-02-25 08:51, Michal Skrivanek wrote: > > On 25 Feb 2014, at 08:32, Ayal Baron wrote: > >> Michal, please see inline >> >> - Original Message - >>> - Original Message - >>>> From: "R P Herrold" To: "Ricky >>>> Schneberger" Cc: users@ovirt.org Sent: >>>> Monday, February 24, 2014 6:42:54 PM Subject: [Users] After >>>> upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their activation >>>> against Microsoft >>>> >>>> On Mon, 24 Feb 2014, Ricky Schneberger wrote: >>>> >>>>>> Why is the Windows VMs always lost their activation >>>>>> against Microsoft after that I have upgrade ovirt? >>>> ... >>>>> Yes I am sure its related to the upgrade. > > only upgrade, not a specific VM run? In other words it doesn't > check the BIOS serial number since that's different on each > hypervisor. > >>>>> >>>>> In the application log of the VM we can see "hardware has >>>>> changed from previous boot" and also we have a licensing >>>>> system on another host that got in a stucked state because >>>>> of the same reason - "hardware has changed from previous >>>>> boot". >>>> >>>> I see the following discussions ... changes in bios, or >>>> hardware device numbers, seem to trigger this >>>> >>>> (Citrix instances) >>>> http://support.citrix.com/article/CTX135542 >>>> >>>> http://support.citrix.com/article/CTX132220/ >>>> >>>> http://discussions.citrix.com/topic/313096-windows-activation-license-mak-used/#entry1674492 >>>> >>>> >>>> http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-windows_install/windows-7-activation-always-come-back-after/b26f8338-ae51-44d1-a0d9-b3a71643548a >>>> >>>> So the issue may in some cases be avoided, but in others, >>>> will need oVirt attention to not changing values refered to >>>> by the licensing validation code. Identifying all those test >>>> point valuess so they may be preserved, looks like something >>>> the upstream (commercial) vendor would not be very >>>> interesting in revealing as it would impact their revenue >>>> model, so it probably needs a set of 'reproducers' >>>> identified, and test cases written ... >>> >>> I think the best solution would be if Microsoft would send some >>> patches :-) >>> >>> Ricky, would you open a bug so we can track this issue? >> >> oVirt tries to keep stable device addresses (e.g. pci slot) >> specifically to prevent this issue. The way it is done is that >> after running the VM we query libvirt for all the device >> addresses and on next run we provide libvirt with the same >> addresses to keep the devices from changing. This feature was not >> available in 3.0 so I see 2 options here: 1. this VM was not >> started (or was running) since 3.0 It was running just until the upgrade to ovirt 3.2 and then the VM was test started before the upgrade to ovirt 3.3. If the license issue came between 3.1>3.2 or between 3.2>3.3 I right dont know. >> 2. introduction of new virtual hardware caused a change in the >> device addresses for some reason (bug). > > in addition to stable PCI addresses, new QEMU/KVM release sometimes > change the system hardware - emulated machine mode. or if it is > really subtle, it can also be triggered by new devices (e.g. > balloon, virtio-console (used to be in 3.0, removed in 3.1, > optional in 3.3)) or simple upgrade of virtio drivers > > anyway, so what changes in devices you can see after upgrade? > It seems that a changes in the display system triggered the Software Protection service. When I check the logs I can see there was and upgrade/change/new install of drivers to the display adapter. I dont know if I got a new PCI address, but when I checked a VM that does not triggered the Software Protection service I cannot find such things in the loggfiles. So in one way or another the VM think there was changes big enough to hit the Software Protection service. > Thanks, michal > >> >> Anyway, adding Michal who is more familiar with this part than >> I. >> >> >>> >>> Nir ___ Users >>> mailing list Users@ovirt.org >>> http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users >>> > > ___ Users mailing list > Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users > Regards - -- Ricky Schneberger - "Not using free exhaust energy to help your engine breathe is downright criminal" -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlMMVqkACgkQOap81biMC2Mm4ACfVcVH6smXm06sj+XNbmRuaYza cUAAoIoA7TOXJQyLsFk58/KqlJBtP/qY =R8Zj -END PGP SIGNATURE- 0xB88C0B63.asc Description: application/pgp-keys ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Users] After upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their activation against Microsoft
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-02-24 17:48, Nir Soffer wrote: > - Original Message - >> From: "R P Herrold" To: "Ricky >> Schneberger" Cc: users@ovirt.org Sent: >> Monday, February 24, 2014 6:42:54 PM Subject: [Users] After >> upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their activation >> against Microsoft >> >> On Mon, 24 Feb 2014, Ricky Schneberger wrote: >> >>>> Why is the Windows VMs always lost their activation against >>>> Microsoft after that I have upgrade ovirt? >> ... >>> Yes I am sure its related to the upgrade. >>> >>> In the application log of the VM we can see "hardware has >>> changed from previous boot" and also we have a licensing system >>> on another host that got in a stucked state because of the same >>> reason - "hardware has changed from previous boot". >> >> I see the following discussions ... changes in bios, or hardware >> device numbers, seem to trigger this >> >> (Citrix instances) http://support.citrix.com/article/CTX135542 >> >> http://support.citrix.com/article/CTX132220/ >> >> http://discussions.citrix.com/topic/313096-windows-activation-license-mak-used/#entry1674492 >> >> >> http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-windows_install/windows-7-activation-always-come-back-after/b26f8338-ae51-44d1-a0d9-b3a71643548a >> >> So the issue may in some cases be avoided, but in others, will >> need oVirt attention to not changing values refered to by the >> licensing validation code. Identifying all those test point >> valuess so they may be preserved, looks like something the >> upstream (commercial) vendor would not be very interesting in >> revealing as it would impact their revenue model, so it probably >> needs a set of 'reproducers' identified, and test cases written >> ... > > I think the best solution would be if Microsoft would send some > patches :-) > > Ricky, would you open a bug so we can track this issue? > > Nir > Yes I will do that. regards //Ricky -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlMMUIYACgkQOap81biMC2Nb3wCfQ2ubOqioMjLIpKcaAsJIPLkP pdsAoIkSThpzWbrjUNan1AgFF79CnjKp =UERa -END PGP SIGNATURE- 0xB88C0B63.asc Description: application/pgp-keys ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Users] After upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their activation against Microsoft
On 25 Feb 2014, at 08:32, Ayal Baron wrote: > Michal, please see inline > > - Original Message - >> - Original Message - >>> From: "R P Herrold" >>> To: "Ricky Schneberger" >>> Cc: users@ovirt.org >>> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 6:42:54 PM >>> Subject: [Users] After upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their >>> activation against Microsoft >>> >>> On Mon, 24 Feb 2014, Ricky Schneberger wrote: >>> >>>>> Why is the Windows VMs always lost their activation against Microsoft >>>>> after that I have upgrade ovirt? >>> ... >>>> Yes I am sure its related to the upgrade. only upgrade, not a specific VM run? In other words it doesn't check the BIOS serial number since that's different on each hypervisor. >>>> >>>> In the application log of the VM we can see "hardware has changed from >>>> previous boot" and also we have a licensing system on another host that >>>> got in a stucked state because of the same reason - "hardware has >>>> changed from previous boot". >>> >>> I see the following discussions ... changes in bios, or >>> hardware device numbers, seem to trigger this >>> >>> (Citrix instances) >>> http://support.citrix.com/article/CTX135542 >>> >>> http://support.citrix.com/article/CTX132220/ >>> >>> http://discussions.citrix.com/topic/313096-windows-activation-license-mak-used/#entry1674492 >>> >>> http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-windows_install/windows-7-activation-always-come-back-after/b26f8338-ae51-44d1-a0d9-b3a71643548a >>> >>> So the issue may in some cases be avoided, but in others, will >>> need oVirt attention to not changing values refered to by the >>> licensing validation code. Identifying all those test point >>> valuess so they may be preserved, looks like something the >>> upstream (commercial) vendor would not be very interesting in >>> revealing as it would impact their revenue model, so it >>> probably needs a set of 'reproducers' identified, and test >>> cases written ... >> >> I think the best solution would be if Microsoft would send some patches :-) >> >> Ricky, would you open a bug so we can track this issue? > > oVirt tries to keep stable device addresses (e.g. pci slot) specifically to > prevent this issue. > The way it is done is that after running the VM we query libvirt for all the > device addresses and on next run we provide libvirt with the same addresses > to keep the devices from changing. > This feature was not available in 3.0 so I see 2 options here: > 1. this VM was not started (or was running) since 3.0 > 2. introduction of new virtual hardware caused a change in the device > addresses for some reason (bug). in addition to stable PCI addresses, new QEMU/KVM release sometimes change the system hardware - emulated machine mode. or if it is really subtle, it can also be triggered by new devices (e.g. balloon, virtio-console (used to be in 3.0, removed in 3.1, optional in 3.3)) or simple upgrade of virtio drivers anyway, so what changes in devices you can see after upgrade? Thanks, michal > > Anyway, adding Michal who is more familiar with this part than I. > > >> >> Nir >> ___ >> Users mailing list >> Users@ovirt.org >> http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users >> ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Users] After upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their activation against Microsoft
Michal, please see inline - Original Message - > - Original Message - > > From: "R P Herrold" > > To: "Ricky Schneberger" > > Cc: users@ovirt.org > > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 6:42:54 PM > > Subject: [Users] After upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their > > activation against Microsoft > > > > On Mon, 24 Feb 2014, Ricky Schneberger wrote: > > > > > > Why is the Windows VMs always lost their activation against Microsoft > > > > after that I have upgrade ovirt? > > ... > > > Yes I am sure its related to the upgrade. > > > > > > In the application log of the VM we can see "hardware has changed from > > > previous boot" and also we have a licensing system on another host that > > > got in a stucked state because of the same reason - "hardware has > > > changed from previous boot". > > > > I see the following discussions ... changes in bios, or > > hardware device numbers, seem to trigger this > > > > (Citrix instances) > > http://support.citrix.com/article/CTX135542 > > > > http://support.citrix.com/article/CTX132220/ > > > > http://discussions.citrix.com/topic/313096-windows-activation-license-mak-used/#entry1674492 > > > > http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-windows_install/windows-7-activation-always-come-back-after/b26f8338-ae51-44d1-a0d9-b3a71643548a > > > > So the issue may in some cases be avoided, but in others, will > > need oVirt attention to not changing values refered to by the > > licensing validation code. Identifying all those test point > > valuess so they may be preserved, looks like something the > > upstream (commercial) vendor would not be very interesting in > > revealing as it would impact their revenue model, so it > > probably needs a set of 'reproducers' identified, and test > > cases written ... > > I think the best solution would be if Microsoft would send some patches :-) > > Ricky, would you open a bug so we can track this issue? oVirt tries to keep stable device addresses (e.g. pci slot) specifically to prevent this issue. The way it is done is that after running the VM we query libvirt for all the device addresses and on next run we provide libvirt with the same addresses to keep the devices from changing. This feature was not available in 3.0 so I see 2 options here: 1. this VM was not started (or was running) since 3.0 2. introduction of new virtual hardware caused a change in the device addresses for some reason (bug). Anyway, adding Michal who is more familiar with this part than I. > > Nir > ___ > Users mailing list > Users@ovirt.org > http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users > ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Users] After upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their activation against Microsoft
- Original Message - > From: "R P Herrold" > To: "Ricky Schneberger" > Cc: users@ovirt.org > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 6:42:54 PM > Subject: [Users] After upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their > activation against Microsoft > > On Mon, 24 Feb 2014, Ricky Schneberger wrote: > > > > Why is the Windows VMs always lost their activation against Microsoft > > > after that I have upgrade ovirt? > ... > > Yes I am sure its related to the upgrade. > > > > In the application log of the VM we can see "hardware has changed from > > previous boot" and also we have a licensing system on another host that > > got in a stucked state because of the same reason - "hardware has > > changed from previous boot". > > I see the following discussions ... changes in bios, or > hardware device numbers, seem to trigger this > > (Citrix instances) > http://support.citrix.com/article/CTX135542 > > http://support.citrix.com/article/CTX132220/ > > http://discussions.citrix.com/topic/313096-windows-activation-license-mak-used/#entry1674492 > > http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-windows_install/windows-7-activation-always-come-back-after/b26f8338-ae51-44d1-a0d9-b3a71643548a > > So the issue may in some cases be avoided, but in others, will > need oVirt attention to not changing values refered to by the > licensing validation code. Identifying all those test point > valuess so they may be preserved, looks like something the > upstream (commercial) vendor would not be very interesting in > revealing as it would impact their revenue model, so it > probably needs a set of 'reproducers' identified, and test > cases written ... I think the best solution would be if Microsoft would send some patches :-) Ricky, would you open a bug so we can track this issue? Nir ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
[Users] After upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their activation against Microsoft
On Mon, 24 Feb 2014, Ricky Schneberger wrote: > > Why is the Windows VMs always lost their activation against Microsoft > > after that I have upgrade ovirt? ... > Yes I am sure its related to the upgrade. > > In the application log of the VM we can see "hardware has changed from > previous boot" and also we have a licensing system on another host that > got in a stucked state because of the same reason - "hardware has > changed from previous boot". I see the following discussions ... changes in bios, or hardware device numbers, seem to trigger this (Citrix instances) http://support.citrix.com/article/CTX135542 http://support.citrix.com/article/CTX132220/ http://discussions.citrix.com/topic/313096-windows-activation-license-mak-used/#entry1674492 http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-windows_install/windows-7-activation-always-come-back-after/b26f8338-ae51-44d1-a0d9-b3a71643548a So the issue may in some cases be avoided, but in others, will need oVirt attention to not changing values refered to by the licensing validation code. Identifying all those test point valuess so they may be preserved, looks like something the upstream (commercial) vendor would not be very interesting in revealing as it would impact their revenue model, so it probably needs a set of 'reproducers' identified, and test cases written ... -- Russ herrold ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Users] After upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their activation against Microsoft
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-02-24 13:06, Nir Soffer wrote: > - Original Message - >> From: "Ricky Schneberger" To: "users" >> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 10:33:00 AM >> Subject: [Users] After upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms >> lost their activation against Microsoft >> >> Why is the Windows VMs always lost their activation against >> Microsoft after that I have upgrade ovirt? Is there så big >> changes in hardware drivers etc that it will hit the activation >> mechanism? >> >> I think there should be a way to preserve the activation even >> after an upgrade. > > I guess that Ricky is talking about upgrade from data > center/cluster version 3.1 to 3.3, related to this bug: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/1067849 > > Eli, can you help with this? > Hi, No, its not related to that bug. That bug was found in my test environment. The problem with VMs that lost their activation status is in my production environment. One cause I just investigate is that those VMs that have lost their activation was running on another node before the upgrade then after the upgrade. The problem should then be in differences between my nodes. Even as I does not had that problem before. - -- Ricky Schneberger -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlMLOAQACgkQOap81biMC2NDggCgjVBV9AUHDvRTkxGgySrmL05Q 8l4AnjWAX5tVEGB9wBD76giKi4nOOgJp =8W1M -END PGP SIGNATURE- 0xB88C0B63.asc Description: application/pgp-keys ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Users] After upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their activation against Microsoft
- Original Message - > From: "Ricky Schneberger" > To: "users" > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 10:33:00 AM > Subject: [Users] After upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their > activation against Microsoft > > Why is the Windows VMs always lost their activation against Microsoft > after that I have upgrade ovirt? > Is there så big changes in hardware drivers etc that it will hit the > activation mechanism? > > I think there should be a way to preserve the activation even after an > upgrade. I guess that Ricky is talking about upgrade from data center/cluster version 3.1 to 3.3, related to this bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/1067849 Eli, can you help with this? ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Users] After upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their activation against Microsoft
On 02/24/2014 10:21 AM, Nir Soffer wrote: - Original Message - From: "Ricky Schneberger" To: "users" Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 10:33:00 AM Subject: [Users] After upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their activation against Microsoft Why is the Windows VMs always lost their activation against Microsoft after that I have upgrade ovirt? Is there så big changes in hardware drivers etc that it will hit the activation mechanism? I think there should be a way to preserve the activation even after an upgrade. I think you should complain about this to the OS vendor :-) It simply means that the `Hardware` changed and I don't think that this should happen, for larger setups that's a pretty big problem, if you suddenly have to re-activate thousands of VM's due to the upgrade. CCing Daniel. Nir ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users -- Regards, Vinzenz Feenstra | Senior Software Engineer RedHat Engineering Virtualization R & D Phone: +420 532 294 625 IRC: vfeenstr or evilissimo Better technology. Faster innovation. Powered by community collaboration. See how it works at redhat.com ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Users] After upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their activation against Microsoft
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-02-24 09:53, Karli Sjöberg wrote: > On Mon, 2014-02-24 at 09:33 +0100, Ricky Schneberger wrote: > Hi, > > Why is the Windows VMs always lost their activation against Microsoft > after that I have upgrade ovirt? > Is there så big changes in hardware drivers etc that it will hit the > activation mechanism? > > I think there should be a way to preserve the activation even after an > upgrade. > > regards > >> > > Hmm, we have also upgraded from 3.2 to 3.3 with Windows guests and we > never had this issue. Are you sure it´s really related to the upgrade? > Maybe it´s a different issue that surfaced at the same time? > > > Hi, Yes I am sure its related to the upgrade. In the application log of the VM we can see "hardware has changed from previous boot" and also we have a licensing system on another host that got in a stucked state because of the same reason - "hardware has changed from previous boot". regards Ricky Schneberger -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlMLDy4ACgkQOap81biMC2PTRACfY6QKLeHcrIUxqh+hZhCc3g2L iDkAn0sIPUYoktN+svC/1GYRdn/JJViA =wPWR -END PGP SIGNATURE- 0xB88C0B63.asc Description: application/pgp-keys ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Users] After upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their activation against Microsoft
- Original Message - > From: "Ricky Schneberger" > To: "users" > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 10:33:00 AM > Subject: [Users] After upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their > activation against Microsoft > > Why is the Windows VMs always lost their activation against Microsoft > after that I have upgrade ovirt? > Is there så big changes in hardware drivers etc that it will hit the > activation mechanism? > > I think there should be a way to preserve the activation even after an > upgrade. I think you should complain about this to the OS vendor :-) CCing Daniel. Nir ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Users] After upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their activation against Microsoft
On Mon, 2014-02-24 at 09:33 +0100, Ricky Schneberger wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi, > > Why is the Windows VMs always lost their activation against Microsoft > after that I have upgrade ovirt? > Is there så big changes in hardware drivers etc that it will hit the > activation mechanism? > > I think there should be a way to preserve the activation even after an > upgrade. > > regards > > - -- > Ricky Schneberger > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ > > iEYEARECAAYFAlMLA7wACgkQOap81biMC2MTUQCbBEkMwhuWuCEAHuj7YT1vTQ/F > Kg8An1+5n1SgIFG4KS/9vRkqng9VGyp9 > =/Xos > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > Hmm, we have also upgraded from 3.2 to 3.3 with Windows guests and we never had this issue. Are you sure it´s really related to the upgrade? Maybe it´s a different issue that surfaced at the same time? -- Med Vänliga Hälsningar --- Karli Sjöberg Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences Box 7079 (Visiting Address Kronåsvägen 8) S-750 07 Uppsala, Sweden Phone: +46-(0)18-67 15 66 karli.sjob...@slu.se ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
[Users] After upgrade of ovirt > 3.3 all Windows vms lost their activation against Microsoft
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Why is the Windows VMs always lost their activation against Microsoft after that I have upgrade ovirt? Is there så big changes in hardware drivers etc that it will hit the activation mechanism? I think there should be a way to preserve the activation even after an upgrade. regards - -- Ricky Schneberger -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlMLA7wACgkQOap81biMC2MTUQCbBEkMwhuWuCEAHuj7YT1vTQ/F Kg8An1+5n1SgIFG4KS/9vRkqng9VGyp9 =/Xos -END PGP SIGNATURE- 0xB88C0B63.asc Description: application/pgp-keys ___ Users mailing list Users@ovirt.org http://lists.ovirt.org/mailman/listinfo/users
