Re: [OT] Unable to install Tomcat 9 on Windows 10

[Igal @ Lucee.org]

On 7/26/2017 11:00 AM, Berneburg, Cris J. - US wrote:



I'm not such a miserable bastard as this thread would indicate

Sounds like a great sig for you.  ;-)



(that's a "Laughing Tears" emoji if it doesn't render right)


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RE: [OT] Unable to install Tomcat 9 on Windows 10

[Berneburg, Cris J. - US]

Hey Chris

> From: Christopher Schultz [mailto:chris@...] 
> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 1:02 PM
> To: users@tomcat.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [OT] Unable to install Tomcat 9 on Windows 10

[SNIP]

> I'm not such a miserable bastard as this thread would indicate

Sounds like a great sig for you.  ;-)

--
Cris Berneburg
CACI Lead Software Engineer


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Re: [OT] Unable to install Tomcat 9 on Windows 10

[Christopher Schultz]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Roparzh,

On 7/22/17 11:05 AM, Roparzh Hemon wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 6:35 PM, Christopher Schultz 
>  wrote:
> 
>> I've been developing Java web applications since 2000, and I use
>> Eclipse, and I've never used Eclipse's "Run as server".
> 
> 
> So, could you please tell a newbie like me how to view my bare 
> "hello world" html file inside my Java project without using this
> "Run on server" command ?

$ mvn war
$ cp project.war "${CATALINA_BASE}/webapps"

?

- -chris
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Re: [OT] Unable to install Tomcat 9 on Windows 10

[Roparzh Hemon]

On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 6:35 PM, Christopher Schultz
 wrote:

>  I've been developing Java web applications since
> 2000, and I use Eclipse, and I've never used Eclipse's "Run as
> server".


  So, could you please tell a newbie like me how to view my bare
"hello world" html file inside my Java project without using this "Run
on server" command ?

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Re: [OT] Unable to install Tomcat 9 on Windows 10

[kidambi madhu]

Hi Chris,

Bad advice all around:

1. Windows 2k8 was EOL 2015-01-13 [security risk]  - I agree with you
2. Windows Server and "workstation" use the same kernel [no difference] -
May be you are right and I don't have much exposure of Windows at the
Kernel level
3. Java runtime is the same regardless of the OS flavor [no difference] -
Pls don't forget that JVM is written in native code and hence platform/OS
agnostic. So JVM has different stability on diff OSes and hence your next
statement below is true (That Java on windows nightmare and stable linux)
4. Java on Windows is a nightmare. If you want to quip about moving to
a "real server OS," then suggest switching to a UNIX-like OS, where
the Real Servers run :)  - yes I agree with you but at the time of learning
anybody in this world prefers Windows than UX platforms

Thanks,
Madhu

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 7:03 PM, Christopher Schultz <
ch...@christopherschultz.net> wrote:

> [image: Boxbe]  This message is eligible
> for Automatic Cleanup! (ch...@christopherschultz.net) Add cleanup rule
> 
> | More info
> 
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA256
>
> kidambi,
>
> On 7/20/17 10:49 AM, kidambi madhu wrote:
> > Hi Hemon,
> >
> > Pls use a server OS (Windows Server 2K8 or 2K12 than Workstation
> > OS.
> >
> > Servers will perform good on Servers only
>
> Bad advice all around:
>
> 1. Windows 2k8 was EOL 2015-01-13 [security risk]
> 2. Windows Server and "workstation" use the same kernel [no difference]
> 3. Java runtime is the same regardless of the OS flavor [no difference]
> 4. Java on Windows is a nightmare. If you want to quip about moving to
> a "real server OS," then suggest switching to a UNIX-like OS, where
> the Real Servers run :)
>
> - -chris
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Re: [OT] Unable to install Tomcat 9 on Windows 10

[Roparzh Hemon]

On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 6:35 PM, Christopher Schultz
 wrote:
> Try re-posting your question on THIS list and see if you get better
> answers.
>

Done : 
http://tomcat.markmail.org/search/?q=#query:+page:1+mid:zzrx4xb5l4mudhzm+state:results

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Re: [OT] Unable to install Tomcat 9 on Windows 10

[Igal @ Lucee.org]

Mark,

On 7/21/2017 10:47 AM, Mark Eggers wrote:



1. Watching a log file is not easy. No "tail". No command-line tools
to look at text files, other than "TYPE". Want to see that log file?
Open in Notepad. Oh, is your log file too big? Sorry, try a different
GUI editor. Oh, does your log file have newlines instead of CRLF?
Unreadable: must use WRITE.EXE or install another tool.

There are a lot of solutions for this:

1. My favorite - install cygwin


I highly recommend using MSYS2 over cygwin.  It is much "lighter" and 
provides all of the tools that I've ever needed:

http://www.msys2.org/

Igal Sapir
Lucee Core Developer
Lucee.org 

Re: [OT] Unable to install Tomcat 9 on Windows 10

[Mark Eggers]

Chris,

Replies inline:

On 7/21/2017 10:01 AM, Christopher Schultz wrote:
> Roparzh,
> 
> On 7/20/17 2:16 PM, Roparzh Hemon wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 8:03 PM, Christopher Schultz 
>>  wrote:
> 
>>> 4. Java on Windows is a nightmare. If you want to quip about
>>> moving to a "real server OS," then suggest switching to a
>>> UNIX-like OS, where the Real Servers run :)
> 
>> I am quite curious and interested in what you say here, because my 
>> feedback and experience go the opposite direction.
> 
> Problems I've had on Windows with Java-based programs as listed below.
> Not all issues are Java-specific, however. I suspect most of these
> problems are because I just "don't know Windows well enough". Fair
> enough. But they are so irritating, they have made me confident I will
> never use Windows for anything production-related.
> 
> 1. Watching a log file is not easy. No "tail". No command-line tools
> to look at text files, other than "TYPE". Want to see that log file?
> Open in Notepad. Oh, is your log file too big? Sorry, try a different
> GUI editor. Oh, does your log file have newlines instead of CRLF?
> Unreadable: must use WRITE.EXE or install another tool.

There are a lot of solutions for this:

1. My favorite - install cygwin
2. Eclipse has a plugin (since you use Eclipse)

The Eclipse Log Viewer is a non blocking IO stream reader that
can tail any number of files and eclipse consoles.
It allows to syntax color the log files with either a regular
expression or a word match.

3. Powershell command (have not tried this)

Get-Content -Path "C:\scripts\test.txt" -Wait

> 
> 2. Running as a service is a headache. First, you need a wrapper
> program, but that wrapper program needs to fit into the Windows
> Service scheme. It's like systemd except without configuration files
> and instead you need configuration programs. This program can't return
> any useful status information (e.g. exit value) because anything other
> than 0 exit status means "error" and the service looks like it failed.
> Same is true with scheduled jobs, btw (and is worse, since
> scheduled-jobs really need to be able to return status information).
> If you want to use the command-line (let's just admit that Windows is
> completely unusable from the command-line), using "NET" to start/stop
> services is particularly difficult because the service name is always
> some 90-character string with spaces and special characters that need
> to be escaped. Using GUI tools gives you carpal tunnel syndrome with
> all the clicking required.
> 

This is one of the many reasons why I don't run Tomcat as a service on
development machines.

1. "Install" Tomcat from a zip or tar.gz file
2. Configure IDE to start / stop / debug Tomcat
3. Profit (more or less)

> 3. There are a handful of programs all which launch Java in different
> ways. You need javaw.exe if you don't want to see a console window,
> java.exe will always show a console window. If you use javaw.exe,
> stdout/stderr is discarded.
> 
> 4. File paths have unexpected quirks. This is not unique to Java and
> is getting much better where Java is concerned, since URL handlers are
> improving over time. Drive letters, UNC paths, network shares, etc.
> are all a headache to use because you have to know the incantation for
> each one to make it work. Sometimes you must map a network drive
> letter. Out of drive letters? Too bad. Sometimes \\server\share works.
> Maybe? Depends on the exact versions of everything involved.
> 
> 5. Scripting is awful. I'm sure PowerShell makes it better. But there
> was solution to this invented in the 1970s that is very powerful. It's
> sad that it took Windows 25 years to get a decent shell/script
> framework. Have a look at catalina.bat versus catalina.sh if you want
> to get a sense of how awful scripting in Windows actually is.
> 

Scripting is awful. Again, I install cygwin on all of my Windows machines.

OK - I'm avoiding installing cygwin on my Windows 10 laptop. We'll see
how much pain I can endure in my effort to learn PowerShell. It's the
same way I learned vi.

1. Install vi on my Windows machine (long time ago and far away)
2. Use nothing but vi (eschewing SPF editor / mainframe - long time ago)
3. Profit (or at least learnit)

>> My goal is to self-teach myself Java in JEE for Web development. I
>> am a long-time Mac fan, but on my mac I got stuck by a
>> configuration problem in JEE and got ZERO feedback on half a dozen
>> forums and mailing lists, including this one. In contrast, in this
>> windows question I got a lot of feedback very quickly.
> 
> Well, welcome to the community. If you ever meet me in person, you'll
> see I'm not such a miserable bastard as this thread would indicate.
> 
> -chris
> 

My overall goal in all of this is to have a single way of doing things
regardless of platform (object oriented development environment design).
I figure that I have enough to learn without trying to remember 

Re: [OT] Unable to install Tomcat 9 on Windows 10

[Mark Eggers]

Roparzh,

On 7/21/2017 9:35 AM, Christopher Schultz wrote:
> Roparzh,
> 
> On 7/20/17 10:23 PM, Roparzh Hemon wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 8:44 PM, Mark Thomas 
>> wrote:
>>> On 20/07/17 19:16, Roparzh Hemon wrote:
 I am a long-time Mac fan, but on my mac I got stuck by a
 configuration problem in JEE and got ZERO feedback on half a
 dozen forums and mailing lists, including this one.
>>>
>>> Reference please. A quick search of the archives suggests this is
>>> the first question you have asked on this list.
>>>
> 
>> You are technically correct, my bad, the question I was referring
>> to was on the Apache mailing list, not this Tomcat mailing list :
>> look at 
>> http://httpd.markmail.org/search/?q=#query:%20list%3Aorg.apache.httpd.
> users+page:13+mid:w72upzzpj4uh3bgk+state:results
> 
> I'm
> 
> not surprised you got no response: that's the list for the native
> web server. They probably just thought you were lost.
> 
> Your problem is actually with Eclipse and had nothing to do with what
> platform you are on. I've been developing Java web applications since
> 2000, and I use Eclipse, and I've never used Eclipse's "Run as
> server". So I would count myself pretty knowledgeable and even I would
> be no help.
> 
> Try re-posting your question on THIS list and see if you get better
> answers.
> 
> -chris

Although I run (mostly) on Windows and develop (mostly) using NetBeans,
I think that I can help with this.

Post your question here, and I can walk you through how I do this on
Windows and Eclipse / Oxygen.

Basically, my philosophy for development machines is the same regardless
of platform or IDE.

1. Keep the Tomcat installation in a directory that you own / control
2. Do not run Tomcat as a service (Windows, Linux, MacOS)
3. Control the start / stop / debug server commands through the IDE

Approaching a development machine in this fashion gives you lots of
flexibility, and avoids potential permissions problems.

. . . just my two cents
/mde/



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [OT] Unable to install Tomcat 9 on Windows 10

[Christopher Schultz]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Roparzh,

On 7/20/17 2:16 PM, Roparzh Hemon wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 8:03 PM, Christopher Schultz 
>  wrote:
> 
>> 4. Java on Windows is a nightmare. If you want to quip about
>> moving to a "real server OS," then suggest switching to a
>> UNIX-like OS, where the Real Servers run :)
> 
> I am quite curious and interested in what you say here, because my 
> feedback and experience go the opposite direction.

Problems I've had on Windows with Java-based programs as listed below.
Not all issues are Java-specific, however. I suspect most of these
problems are because I just "don't know Windows well enough". Fair
enough. But they are so irritating, they have made me confident I will
never use Windows for anything production-related.

1. Watching a log file is not easy. No "tail". No command-line tools
to look at text files, other than "TYPE". Want to see that log file?
Open in Notepad. Oh, is your log file too big? Sorry, try a different
GUI editor. Oh, does your log file have newlines instead of CRLF?
Unreadable: must use WRITE.EXE or install another tool.

2. Running as a service is a headache. First, you need a wrapper
program, but that wrapper program needs to fit into the Windows
Service scheme. It's like systemd except without configuration files
and instead you need configuration programs. This program can't return
any useful status information (e.g. exit value) because anything other
than 0 exit status means "error" and the service looks like it failed.
Same is true with scheduled jobs, btw (and is worse, since
scheduled-jobs really need to be able to return status information).
If you want to use the command-line (let's just admit that Windows is
completely unusable from the command-line), using "NET" to start/stop
services is particularly difficult because the service name is always
some 90-character string with spaces and special characters that need
to be escaped. Using GUI tools gives you carpal tunnel syndrome with
all the clicking required.

3. There are a handful of programs all which launch Java in different
ways. You need javaw.exe if you don't want to see a console window,
java.exe will always show a console window. If you use javaw.exe,
stdout/stderr is discarded.

4. File paths have unexpected quirks. This is not unique to Java and
is getting much better where Java is concerned, since URL handlers are
improving over time. Drive letters, UNC paths, network shares, etc.
are all a headache to use because you have to know the incantation for
each one to make it work. Sometimes you must map a network drive
letter. Out of drive letters? Too bad. Sometimes \\server\share works.
Maybe? Depends on the exact versions of everything involved.

5. Scripting is awful. I'm sure PowerShell makes it better. But there
was solution to this invented in the 1970s that is very powerful. It's
sad that it took Windows 25 years to get a decent shell/script
framework. Have a look at catalina.bat versus catalina.sh if you want
to get a sense of how awful scripting in Windows actually is.

> My goal is to self-teach myself Java in JEE for Web development. I
> am a long-time Mac fan, but on my mac I got stuck by a
> configuration problem in JEE and got ZERO feedback on half a dozen
> forums and mailing lists, including this one. In contrast, in this
> windows question I got a lot of feedback very quickly.

Well, welcome to the community. If you ever meet me in person, you'll
see I'm not such a miserable bastard as this thread would indicate.

- -chris
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Re: [OT] Unable to install Tomcat 9 on Windows 10

[Christopher Schultz]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Roparzh,

On 7/20/17 10:23 PM, Roparzh Hemon wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 8:44 PM, Mark Thomas 
> wrote:
>> On 20/07/17 19:16, Roparzh Hemon wrote:
>>> I am a long-time Mac fan, but on my mac I got stuck by a
>>> configuration problem in JEE and got ZERO feedback on half a
>>> dozen forums and mailing lists, including this one.
>> 
>> Reference please. A quick search of the archives suggests this is
>> the first question you have asked on this list.
>> 
> 
> You are technically correct, my bad, the question I was referring
> to was on the Apache mailing list, not this Tomcat mailing list :
> look at 
> http://httpd.markmail.org/search/?q=#query:%20list%3Aorg.apache.httpd.
users+page:13+mid:w72upzzpj4uh3bgk+state:results

I'm
> 
not surprised you got no response: that's the list for the native
web server. They probably just thought you were lost.

Your problem is actually with Eclipse and had nothing to do with what
platform you are on. I've been developing Java web applications since
2000, and I use Eclipse, and I've never used Eclipse's "Run as
server". So I would count myself pretty knowledgeable and even I would
be no help.

Try re-posting your question on THIS list and see if you get better
answers.

- -chris
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

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=/9fo
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Re: [OT] Unable to install Tomcat 9 on Windows 10

[Roparzh Hemon]

Because I was bored and irritated by this persistent problem, I ended
up doing what I seldom do, choosing "Ignore and Continue (Not
Recommended)" in the list of options in the installation wizard. The
installation then finishes, but localhost:8080 is not recognized in
the browser.

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Re: [OT] Unable to install Tomcat 9 on Windows 10

[Roparzh Hemon]

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 8:44 PM, Mark Thomas  wrote:
> On 20/07/17 19:16, Roparzh Hemon wrote:
>>  I am a long-time
>> Mac fan, but on my mac I got stuck by a configuration problem in JEE
>> and got ZERO feedback on half a dozen forums and mailing lists,
>> including this one.
>
> Reference please. A quick search of the archives suggests this is the
> first question you have asked on this list.
>

  You are technically correct, my bad, the question I was referring to
was on the Apache mailing list, not this Tomcat mailing list : look at
http://httpd.markmail.org/search/?q=#query:%20list%3Aorg.apache.httpd.users+page:13+mid:w72upzzpj4uh3bgk+state:results

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Re: [OT] Unable to install Tomcat 9 on Windows 10

[Mark Thomas]

On 20/07/17 19:16, Roparzh Hemon wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 8:03 PM, Christopher Schultz
>  wrote:
> 
>> 4. Java on Windows is a nightmare. If you want to quip about moving to
>> a "real server OS," then suggest switching to a UNIX-like OS, where
>> the Real Servers run :)
> 
>   I am quite curious and interested in what you say here, because my
> feedback and experience go the opposite direction. My goal is to
> self-teach myself Java in JEE for Web development. I am a long-time
> Mac fan, but on my mac I got stuck by a configuration problem in JEE
> and got ZERO feedback on half a dozen forums and mailing lists,
> including this one.

Reference please. A quick search of the archives suggests this is the
first question you have asked on this list.

Mark



> In contrast, in this windows question I got a lot
> of feedback very quickly.
> 
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Re: [OT] Unable to install Tomcat 9 on Windows 10

[Igal @ Lucee.org]

On 7/20/2017 11:16 AM, Roparzh Hemon wrote:

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 8:03 PM, Christopher Schultz
 wrote:


4. Java on Windows is a nightmare. If you want to quip about moving to
a "real server OS," then suggest switching to a UNIX-like OS, where
the Real Servers run :)

   I am quite curious and interested in what you say here, because my
feedback and experience go the opposite direction. My goal is to
self-teach myself Java in JEE for Web development. I am a long-time
Mac fan, but on my mac I got stuck by a configuration problem in JEE
and got ZERO feedback on half a dozen forums and mailing lists,
including this one. In contrast, in this windows question I got a lot
of feedback very quickly.


The thing here is that Java is configured and runs pretty much the same 
on all of the operating systems.  There is nothing wrong with Windows 
with respect to developing, configuring, or running Java. That applies 
to all Java software, including Tomcat.


If you are switching from a Mac, though, then perhaps a UNIX-like OS 
would have been a better choice for you, since MacOS is based on BSD, 
and even Microsoft is moving towards the *nix world (e.g. added Bash 
from Ubuntu, made a Linux version SQL Server, etc.).


Anyway, there's nothing wrong with Windows if you don't mind their 
licensing, costs, and added overhead of GUI where it is not needed.


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Re: [OT] Unable to install Tomcat 9 on Windows 10

[Roparzh Hemon]

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 8:03 PM, Christopher Schultz
 wrote:

> 4. Java on Windows is a nightmare. If you want to quip about moving to
> a "real server OS," then suggest switching to a UNIX-like OS, where
> the Real Servers run :)

  I am quite curious and interested in what you say here, because my
feedback and experience go the opposite direction. My goal is to
self-teach myself Java in JEE for Web development. I am a long-time
Mac fan, but on my mac I got stuck by a configuration problem in JEE
and got ZERO feedback on half a dozen forums and mailing lists,
including this one. In contrast, in this windows question I got a lot
of feedback very quickly.

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Re: [OT] Unable to install Tomcat 9 on Windows 10

[Christopher Schultz]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

kidambi,

On 7/20/17 10:49 AM, kidambi madhu wrote:
> Hi Hemon,
> 
> Pls use a server OS (Windows Server 2K8 or 2K12 than Workstation
> OS.
> 
> Servers will perform good on Servers only

Bad advice all around:

1. Windows 2k8 was EOL 2015-01-13 [security risk]
2. Windows Server and "workstation" use the same kernel [no difference]
3. Java runtime is the same regardless of the OS flavor [no difference]
4. Java on Windows is a nightmare. If you want to quip about moving to
a "real server OS," then suggest switching to a UNIX-like OS, where
the Real Servers run :)

- -chris
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