Re: Tomcat and Spring Framework
On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 09:32:05PM -0400, Rossen Stoyanchev wrote: On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 3:58 PM, Mark H. Wood mw...@iupui.edu wrote: It's probably worth asking what full-fledged enterprise applications means. I'm not aware of any specification with that title. Indeed there is no such specification. The point is that Java enterprise development is not always defined nor does it have to be defined by specs. The spec development process is tricky at best. You have to do it not too early (ahead of experience) and not too late either. Open source is actually in a much better position to evolve continuously by capturing developer feedback and providing results quickly. So certainly don't discount just because it's not a spec. I wasn't discounting Spring; I use it and like it. I was discounting empty phrases like full-fledged enterprise application which could mean anything, or nothing. When someone offers me support for full-fledged enterprise applications I do not know what facilities and APIs I can rely on; when someone offers me JEE 6 or Spring 3.2 or something else with a definition, I do. -- Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer mw...@iupui.edu Machines should not be friendly. Machines should be obedient. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Tomcat and Spring Framework
It's probably worth asking what full-fledged enterprise applications means. I'm not aware of any specification with that title. -- Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer mw...@iupui.edu Machines should not be friendly. Machines should be obedient. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Tomcat and Spring Framework
On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Mark H. Wood mw...@iupui.edu wrote: It's probably worth asking what full-fledged enterprise applications means. I'm not aware of any specification with that title. That was a Spring term from the page I was reading, and the reason I asked the question. Tomcat itself is not a J(2)EE application server. I have been under the impression that one could successfully could implement *some* of the J(2)EE stack carefully on Tomcat through other means. Spring is one of those means? From what I've been reading about Spring in the last three days is it is essentially a bunch of design patterns turned into objects. Dependency Injection through patterns - I get that. The AOP part of Spring is basically a mechanism for applying object behavior to other objects without composition. I know i have that wording wrong, but essentially, AOP though the use of point-cuts lets me applying object behavior of logging to other objects without those objects being composed of my logging objects. I don't know how I would do that with a pattern, unless it is some kind of front controller pattern - but I don't know. So, Spring allows Tomcat to host full-fledged enterprise applications that would normally require a J(2)EE application server like Glassfish? That is what I was asking, without saying it specifically.
Re: Tomcat and Spring Framework
On Mar 10, 2014, at 4:16 PM, Leo Donahue donahu...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Mark H. Wood mw...@iupui.edu wrote: It's probably worth asking what full-fledged enterprise applications means. I'm not aware of any specification with that title. That was a Spring term from the page I was reading, and the reason I asked the question. Tomcat itself is not a J(2)EE application server. I have been under the impression that one could successfully could implement *some* of the J(2)EE stack carefully on Tomcat through other means. True. You can use some parts of Java EE by simply including JAR files in your app. Just to name a few JPA, JMS and / or Bean Validation can be included this way. You don’t need Spring or even a container to do this though. Spring is one of those means? Spring doesn't provide implementations of the Java EE specs, rather it aims to make using Java EE technologies easier. This is true whether you deploy to a full stack Java EE container or Tomcat. From what I've been reading about Spring in the last three days is it is essentially a bunch of design patterns turned into objects. Dependency Injection through patterns - I get that. The AOP part of Spring is basically a mechanism for applying object behavior to other objects without composition. I know i have that wording wrong, but essentially, AOP though the use of point-cuts lets me applying object behavior of logging to other objects without those objects being composed of my logging objects. I don't know how I would do that with a pattern, unless it is some kind of front controller pattern - but I don't know. By default, Spring does this with dynamic proxies. Because you configure your beans and Spring creates them for you, it can easily wrap them in a proxy and through the proxy apply additional behaviors. This works good in a lot of cases, but does have limitations. Because of this Spring also support aspectj, which works through byte code manipulation. So, Spring allows Tomcat to host full-fledged enterprise applications that would normally require a J(2)EE application server like Glassfish? That is what I was asking, without saying it specifically. Spring is a framework that aims to make your life as a developer easier when writing complicated or large applications (although it works nice for any size application). I’m not sure I would call it a replacement for a JEE server like Glassfish though. If you have an application that targets a JEE container like Glassfish or WebSphere, Spring is not magically going to make that application run in Tomcat. Having said that, if you write the same application and use Spring instead of targeting a JEE container, many of the things that would have tied you to a full stack JEE container can be accomplished in smaller and lighter weight container like Tomcat. Dan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tomcat.apache.org
Re: Tomcat and Spring Framework
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Mark, On 3/10/14, 3:58 PM, Mark H. Wood wrote: It's probably worth asking what full-fledged enterprise applications means. I'm not aware of any specification with that title. Those are applications you can charge more for. You know, because they are enterprisey. - -chris -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTHiklAAoJEBzwKT+lPKRYv+cP/0ndLOzYAc3wuXjgVCQeBHF4 fRM3IjJk33U3FP05TJneurVGwsLMMvpCVfjjMkawrw/bkRadvxzlK0noskl6YP5I mWij+riT8E/iwMVYSqagl+jfJ1jF+Tca3kqtNvPq8b5h3Qcr/QlsYERIPzI0NpnD hixELDm0KRBfuZOLVfOCIlkXy0rBlsplVrciUV0rROh7a3TOD2c7DTF2O36ik8sI Bwbb0bgxa2VOuiUYQ/wGp3ow4+KLfl/+zP1XcQ/583/pAIOupgVHn8oOTF3QBTiZ jdP8GbHVyLIoBh+xbSVlc9KURN3CtplSNpPxfAWkzxP7sCqV2vRTTIVIYqUec5vA MxV5fvCI1MP2zcw3nK+N6sifmxPAQz26VtO6go834l9tfqxcvepW4Ny9xmX1zlg8 9YARLCaQl02lW9BnfILNrq6SB4Cfn7Y9BgSxetrkDHvYeeTMSYCzer0rO4+K5Sli WcBfBrF5MZdRa2on6DJQEoKw3tE/J8/gREyIQoV8gUL1ZHJYKM56HDx31K8Rw22B o/CktfkZV4t4ksA21SDJG2+hDldaN0ODOsIAV4Gvq5BjiuPRc7K8eESAoUdEPW62 Wfqbybcdj7WZixcQsxXoJnPKFi7atEQDcl/52NTu+Z6Kwa428zgrJtf7dn/5hxzZ tZ7WUPlkfNUQ7bMIBWa/ =ky2v -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tomcat.apache.org
Re: Tomcat and Spring Framework
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Daniel, On 3/10/14, 4:57 PM, Daniel Mikusa wrote: On Mar 10, 2014, at 4:16 PM, Leo Donahue donahu...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Mark H. Wood mw...@iupui.edu wrote: It's probably worth asking what full-fledged enterprise applications means. I'm not aware of any specification with that title. That was a Spring term from the page I was reading, and the reason I asked the question. Tomcat itself is not a J(2)EE application server. I have been under the impression that one could successfully could implement *some* of the J(2)EE stack carefully on Tomcat through other means. True. You can use some parts of Java EE by simply including JAR files in your app. Just to name a few JPA, JMS and / or Bean Validation can be included this way. You don’t need Spring or even a container to do this though. Spring is one of those means? Spring doesn't provide implementations of the Java EE specs, rather it aims to make using Java EE technologies easier. This is true whether you deploy to a full stack Java EE container or Tomcat. From what I've been reading about Spring in the last three days is it is essentially a bunch of design patterns turned into objects. Dependency Injection through patterns - I get that. The AOP part of Spring is basically a mechanism for applying object behavior to other objects without composition. I know i have that wording wrong, but essentially, AOP though the use of point-cuts lets me applying object behavior of logging to other objects without those objects being composed of my logging objects. I don't know how I would do that with a pattern, unless it is some kind of front controller pattern - but I don't know. By default, Spring does this with dynamic proxies. Because you configure your beans and Spring creates them for you, it can easily wrap them in a proxy and through the proxy apply additional behaviors. This works good in a lot of cases, but does have limitations. Because of this Spring also support aspectj, which works through byte code manipulation. So, Spring allows Tomcat to host full-fledged enterprise applications that would normally require a J(2)EE application server like Glassfish? That is what I was asking, without saying it specifically. Spring is a framework that aims to make your life as a developer easier when writing complicated or large applications (although it works nice for any size application). I’m not sure I would call it a replacement for a JEE server like Glassfish though. If you have an application that targets a JEE container like Glassfish or WebSphere, Spring is not magically going to make that application run in Tomcat. Having said that, if you write the same application and use Spring instead of targeting a JEE container, many of the things that would have tied you to a full stack JEE container can be accomplished in smaller and lighter weight container like Tomcat. Here's another plug for our friends over at TomEE, which adds enterprisey-features to Tomcat's existing servlet, JSP, and EL spec support by bundling and configuring other OSS components. Specifically: CDI - Apache OpenWebBeans EJB - Apache OpenEJB JPA - Apache OpenJPA JSF - Apache MyFaces JTA - Apache Geronimo Transaction Javamail - Apache Geronimo JavaMail Bean Validation - Apache BVal There's also a Plus version with some additional components for your enterprising pleasure. http://tomee.apache.org/apache-tomee.html - -chris -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTHinpAAoJEBzwKT+lPKRY94AQAJ2eSFHYMCIM0ajX7Qd8zSau zhj5jn0yZSC7AfMtP5cMfTPY0Ah8i7nsfSTDjN7PccDDuTI2QwzHf6vu9ZHS0sH8 KRFSb5mtx8CofptjIoFjJcpmwVIE+OggBj5ldpbBNCeddvy42FBXBx1Mf56hL0io /REGN6RHpt3DpshNEv63OzuLLDezBwBTcp44oRdaiozSRDEpyVLb4/yahbg41bLT 39ICcCq8wZ1dO8VWt9naLaQpYAYDSQxcwtqYbHJgWlL1tL9aBvMgFbo/Y9+aCCJa EU5AiIzaaZLM04Yrhk3hYceajep1x5/JX3xKQt2jRo95N9ejHTQi9kBprdsGCTxq 5zQbdWD+9iDw8gg57mc1/qnUYTHXsz7shZh3aFTE70TTvUfNVj3fEMeKDrwdc5UJ /lhsY1IIE3z6ZZcw23WpAg9g9lBfes0eYgwSSuEMAarI8IlLLFYTCskO6v5X+XNL pYQ3iy52N7N/DxR0Rd7U+Ktyqi9oOIM6Aj9u7w/MgFBQAc+OPJlrAdi0PW5DE84x QTa/9V46s8/qA9nhZvrJZ4NedN6PInPwtYs8kuU1HbpOv/Y9CVWh2lXLahPiAjzR /Fznx41CrnDvE7kcN1P+yvo7jxhY+diaujW0p+MEUT9poqm9MbsW1+t8Pwq+uKw/ jsp3xWiKt68vAOIGM2wZ =fU+F -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tomcat.apache.org
Re: Tomcat and Spring Framework
On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 3:58 PM, Mark H. Wood mw...@iupui.edu wrote: It's probably worth asking what full-fledged enterprise applications means. I'm not aware of any specification with that title. Mark, you are right - there is no specification named full-fledged enterprise JEE server. There is only one JEE specification (well few different versions, e.g. JEE5, JEE6, JEE7 see links below), and other related specifications (EJB, Servlet, etc...) What I meant is that - historically, Tomcat implemented only a subset of functionalities of a JEE application server. Namely, Tomcat implemented the Servlet specification (e.g. Servlet 2.4, 2.5, 3.0, 3.1... ) - whereas, full-fledged JEE appservers had to implement the entire stack of APIs that were part of that JEE specification. Dan provided some great discussion points and summary on comparing Spring and JEE. If you search online, you will probably find a lot of heated discussion which one is better, do they complement each other, how they compare, how they differ, etc... Bottom line, Spring framework is used by many and it makes it easier to develop enterprise applications. Similarly, JEE (JEE5, JEE6, JEE7) is used by many, and now, it makes it easier to develop enterprise applications, finally (compared to previous J2EE implementations). Historically, one of the main complaints when developing applications was the server startup time on developer machines. Tomcat has traditionally been very quick to startup, whereas (old) JEE servers took forever to startup (I am looking at you WebSphere :) which caused major grief redeploying, restarting, and managing appservers in development. Any change would take forever to restart and test. Of course, that's been long fixed now - JBoss/Wildfly, Glassfish, WebSphere (Liberty), etc... they all have significantly reduced appserver startup time. Please ask - if you have specific questions. Links: [1] JEE5 - https://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=244 [2] JEE6 - https://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=316 [3] JEE7 - https://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=342
Re: Tomcat and Spring Framework
On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 3:58 PM, Mark H. Wood mw...@iupui.edu wrote: It's probably worth asking what full-fledged enterprise applications means. I'm not aware of any specification with that title. Indeed there is no such specification. The point is that Java enterprise development is not always defined nor does it have to be defined by specs. The spec development process is tricky at best. You have to do it not too early (ahead of experience) and not too late either. Open source is actually in a much better position to evolve continuously by capturing developer feedback and providing results quickly. So certainly don't discount just because it's not a spec. Rossen
Re: Tomcat and Spring Framework
On 3/7/2014 4:45 PM, Leo Donahue wrote: On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 3:41 PM, Konstantin Kolinko knst.koli...@gmail.comwrote: 2014-03-08 2:30 GMT+04:00 Leo Donahue donahu...@gmail.com: Any Spring developers on the list? http://docs.spring.io/spring/docs/4.0.2.RELEASE/spring-framework-reference/htmlsingle/#overview-usagescenarios A link to htmlsingle page?? That takes a while to load. Yes, sorry. That is the link to the reference on the quick start page here: http://projects.spring.io/spring-framework/#quick-start Here is a quicker one to that chapter 2.3: http://docs.spring.io/spring/docs/4.0.2.RELEASE/spring-framework-reference/html/overview.html#overview-usagescenarios Is that saying that you can use a regular Tomcat for all of that? full-fledged enterprise applications on Tomcat? Yes. Why not? I'm good with that, just asking. New to Spring. Hi, Leo- I've used Spring MVC with Tomcat without any problems. -Terence Bandoian P.S. My apologies for the private e-mail. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tomcat.apache.org
Re: Tomcat and Spring Framework
On Sun, Mar 9, 2014 at 6:36 PM, Terence M. Bandoian tere...@tmbsw.comwrote: On 3/7/2014 4:45 PM, Leo Donahue wrote: On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 3:41 PM, Konstantin Kolinko knst.koli...@gmail.comwrote: 2014-03-08 2:30 GMT+04:00 Leo Donahue donahu...@gmail.com: Any Spring developers on the list? Leo, I've used Spring quite a lot, and Tomcat is very popular choice of platform for Spring developers. Is that saying that you can use a regular Tomcat for all of that? full-fledged enterprise applications on Tomcat? Yes. Why not? I'm good with that, just asking. New to Spring. Hi, Leo- I've used Spring MVC with Tomcat without any problems. Same here. I've used Spring and Tomcat on many projects, with a great success. Spring Framework is a very comprehensive framework that gives you a lot of functionality that traditional JEE appservers (WebSphere, Weblogic, JBoss, etc..) provide and that is not available in pure Tomcat. The Spring project kinda started out of frustration with current state of affairs in the J(2)EE appserver market and EJB specification and implementation. The idea was to offer a viable platform (framework) to write J(2)EE applications without a need for full-fledged (and expensive!) J(2)EE appserver and EJB container (see two Rod Johnson's books below [1] and [2] for more details). Spring Framework and Tomcat shared their mutual love for each other over last 10 years, and was probably one of the reasons why Spring and Tomcat became very popular choice of development environment for many Java developers. Spring naturally evolved to include many new projects, not just the Spring Framework [3]. They even created their own container based on Tomcat server, called tcServer [4] and [5] - later acquired by VMWare. So, yes - there is probably a lot of developers on this list very familiar with Spring framework :))) Hopefully, that answers your question. Cheers! Neven Links: [1] http://www.amazon.com/Expert-One---One-Development-without/dp/0764558315 [2] http://www.amazon.com/Expert-One---One-Design-Development/dp/0764543857 [3] http://spring.io/projects [4] http://www.vmware.com/products/vfabric-tcserver [5] http://static.springsource.com/projects/tc-server/6.0/getstart/cgsdiffs.html
Tomcat and Spring Framework
Any Spring developers on the list? http://docs.spring.io/spring/docs/4.0.2.RELEASE/spring-framework-reference/htmlsingle/#overview-usagescenarios Is that saying that you can use a regular Tomcat for all of that? full-fledged enterprise applications on Tomcat?
Re: Tomcat and Spring Framework
2014-03-08 2:30 GMT+04:00 Leo Donahue donahu...@gmail.com: Any Spring developers on the list? http://docs.spring.io/spring/docs/4.0.2.RELEASE/spring-framework-reference/htmlsingle/#overview-usagescenarios A link to htmlsingle page?? That takes a while to load. Here is a quicker one to that chapter 2.3: http://docs.spring.io/spring/docs/4.0.2.RELEASE/spring-framework-reference/html/overview.html#overview-usagescenarios Is that saying that you can use a regular Tomcat for all of that? full-fledged enterprise applications on Tomcat? Yes. Why not? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tomcat.apache.org
Re: Tomcat and Spring Framework
On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 3:41 PM, Konstantin Kolinko knst.koli...@gmail.comwrote: 2014-03-08 2:30 GMT+04:00 Leo Donahue donahu...@gmail.com: Any Spring developers on the list? http://docs.spring.io/spring/docs/4.0.2.RELEASE/spring-framework-reference/htmlsingle/#overview-usagescenarios A link to htmlsingle page?? That takes a while to load. Yes, sorry. That is the link to the reference on the quick start page here: http://projects.spring.io/spring-framework/#quick-start Here is a quicker one to that chapter 2.3: http://docs.spring.io/spring/docs/4.0.2.RELEASE/spring-framework-reference/html/overview.html#overview-usagescenarios Is that saying that you can use a regular Tomcat for all of that? full-fledged enterprise applications on Tomcat? Yes. Why not? I'm good with that, just asking. New to Spring.
