Re: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-10-08 Thread Hans Magne Helland
 So you would need 64 Bit versions of those libraries which are coming from
 BMC. I would be interested in the info whether they exist as well :)

I now run ARS 7.6, with the newest Mid-Tier 7.6 on my test server and
it runs with 64 bit Java :)

But now it uses a lot of CPU. Googled it, and saw people having
CPU-usage issues with ESX Vmware and Tomcat. Is this a known thing?

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Re: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-10-08 Thread André Warnier

Hans Magne Helland wrote:

So you would need 64 Bit versions of those libraries which are coming from
BMC. I would be interested in the info whether they exist as well :)


I now run ARS 7.6, with the newest Mid-Tier 7.6 on my test server and
it runs with 64 bit Java :)

But now it uses a lot of CPU. Googled it, and saw people having
CPU-usage issues with ESX Vmware and Tomcat. Is this a known thing?

As a bit of an outsider, I'd tell you that the CPU and RAM usage are a known thing, not 
particularly with Vmware or Tomcat, but with anything Java.

The switch to 64-bit merely seems to double it.

But the guys on this list are all Java freaks, so they would probably not understand what 
we're talking about.  Or else they do, and they all have shares in Intel and Kingston.

:-)


On the serious side : I have several virtual servers running Tomcat under Vmware Server 
(not ESX), and I did not notice anything particular about their CPU or RAM usage, as 
compared to physical servers.  Only the same thing. :-)



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RE: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-10-08 Thread Caldarale, Charles R
 From: Hans Magne Helland [mailto:hansma...@gmail.com] 
 Subject: Re: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory 
 assigned - windows

 But now it uses a lot of CPU. Googled it, and saw people having
 CPU-usage issues with ESX Vmware and Tomcat.

Time to start a new thread, since the above is completely unrelated to the 
subject line.

 - Chuck


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Re: [OT] apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-10-08 Thread Christopher Schultz
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

André,

On 10/8/2010 8:32 AM, André Warnier wrote:
 Hans Magne Helland wrote:
 But now it uses a lot of CPU. Googled it, and saw people having
 CPU-usage issues with ESX Vmware and Tomcat. Is this a known thing?

 As a bit of an outsider, I'd tell you that the CPU and RAM usage are a
 known thing, not particularly with Vmware or Tomcat, but with anything
 Java.
 The switch to 64-bit merely seems to double it.
 
 But the guys on this list are all Java freaks, so they would probably
 not understand what we're talking about.  Or else they do, and they all
 have shares in Intel and Kingston.
 :-)

Let's be fair: we're Java fanboys, not Java freaks ;)

Switching to 64-bit will double the size of your pointers regardless of
programming language. Actually, Java can compress pointers even under a
64-bit environment to save space, so in that way, it might not balloon
memory use. :p

In my experience, Java does not use significantly more CPU than programs
of similar (and reasonable) complexity written in other languages: the
problem is that most people compare apples to oranges. They will compare
a Hello World program in Java and C and show you that the Java program
requires 6MB of heap just to get going and takes have a second to run
while the C program requires no heap whatsoever and runs instantaneously.

Yes, that's true. However, Java wasn't built to run trivial things like
Hello World. Once you get into significant complexity, the playing
field levels quite dramatically. That's why, when writing programs, I
choose the technology that is appropriate for the situation instead of
running to one or another language/environment all the time. For
production operations, we use Java for all of our web apps, but we have
lots of utilities written in Perl, PHP, Bash scripts, and the occasional
C program: the right tool for the right job IMHO.

- -chris
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Re: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-09-30 Thread Hans Magne Helland
 Have you tried running it on a 64-bit JVM?

I will try that on a test server, and see if things work out as it should!

Thanks for all replies on this :)

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Re: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-09-30 Thread Rainer Jung

On 30.09.2010 10:33, Hans Magne Helland wrote:

Have you tried running it on a 64-bit JVM?


I will try that on a test server, and see if things work out as it should!


From a very recent consulting job (performance and stability problems 
with the BMC Remedy Midtier application): Yes, it uses a lot of native 
code (shared libraries), at least on Solaris, but likely also on other 
platforms. The whole communication to their backend, the so-called AR 
Server is done by native client libs.


It could be, that newer versions have a pure Java implementation, but I 
doubt it ...


So you would need 64 Bit versions of those libraries which are coming 
from BMC. I would be interested in the info whether they exist as well :)


Regards,

Rainer

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Re: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-09-30 Thread Hans Magne Helland
 From a very recent consulting job (performance and stability problems with
 the BMC Remedy Midtier application): Yes, it uses a lot of native code
 (shared libraries), at least on Solaris, but likely also on other platforms.
 The whole communication to their backend, the so-called AR Server is done
 by native client libs.

 So you would need 64 Bit versions of those libraries which are coming from
 BMC. I would be interested in the info whether they exist as well :)

7.6 version of BMC mid-tier, that is recently released, is told to
have support for 64bit.
I will try to download that and see how it works!

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apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-09-29 Thread Hans Magne Helland
Hello everyone,

Current settings:
Initial memory pool: 1024
Maximum memory pool: 1048

If I increase any more then this, the tomcat6 service will not start.

System log says the following:
The Apache Tomcat 6 service terminated with service-specific error The
operation completed successfully..

We run the 32 bit Tomcat version on a 64bit windows server because of
compability with the web/applications running on the server.

We have 8GB of physical memory in the server, and I would like to utilize
more than 1024mb for the tomcat.

Any ideas how I can achieve that?

-- 
mvh
Hans Magne Helland
mob: 4723
http://hansmagne.com

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Re: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-09-29 Thread Mark Thomas
On 29/09/2010 10:55, Hans Magne Helland wrote:
 Hello everyone,
 
 Current settings:
 Initial memory pool: 1024
 Maximum memory pool: 1048
 
 If I increase any more then this, the tomcat6 service will not start.
 
 System log says the following:
 The Apache Tomcat 6 service terminated with service-specific error The
 operation completed successfully..
 
 We run the 32 bit Tomcat version on a 64bit windows server because of
 compability with the web/applications running on the server.
 
 We have 8GB of physical memory in the server, and I would like to utilize
 more than 1024mb for the tomcat.
 
 Any ideas how I can achieve that?

Use a 64-bit JVM.

Mark

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RE: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-09-29 Thread Caldarale, Charles R
 From: Hans Magne Helland [mailto:hansma...@gmail.com] 
 Subject: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory 
 assigned - windows

 Current settings:
 Initial memory pool: 1024
 Maximum memory pool: 1048

1048 is an unusual value; are you reporting the numbers accurately?  Shouldn't 
there be an MB on the end of each?  Note that it's usually better to set the 
initial and maximum to the same value for server environments.

 We run the 32 bit Tomcat version on a 64bit windows server 
 because of compability with the web/applications running on
 the server.

Unless you're referring to native code inside your webapps, the above statement 
makes no sense.  If you do have native code, then a simple recompile will allow 
you to use it with a 64-bit JVM.

 - Chuck


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Re: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-09-29 Thread Hans Magne Helland
Thanks for the answers.

 1048 is an unusual value; are you reporting the numbers accurately?
 Shouldn't there be an MB on the end of each?  Note that it's usually better 
 to set the
 initial and maximum to the same value for server environments.

This was copied from the test server, were I tried to find the memory
limit where tomcat service would not start. I will set both to 1024mb,
thanks :)

 Unless you're referring to native code inside your webapps, the above 
 statement makes no sense.
 If you do have native code, then a simple recompile will allow you to use it 
with a 64-bit JVM.

This tomcat server is running an ARS Remedy Mid-Tier application
(version 7.5), the requirements from BMC on this version is that it
must be a 32bit tomcat install using a 32bit java. Luckely the ARS 7.6
version will fully support 64b java and tomcat.

So 1024mb looks to be the limit on a 32bit java/tomcat install?

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RE: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-09-29 Thread Caldarale, Charles R
 From: Hans Magne Helland [mailto:hansma...@gmail.com] 
 Subject: Re: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory 
 assigned - windows

 This tomcat server is running an ARS Remedy Mid-Tier application
 (version 7.5), the requirements from BMC on this version is that it
 must be a 32bit tomcat install using a 32bit java.

Since I'm not familiar with BMC's products, that didn't really answer the 
question: does the webapp include native code?  If not, then the webapp won't 
be able to tell the difference between 32- and 64-bit JVMs.  Have you tried 
running it on a 64-bit JVM?

 So 1024mb looks to be the limit on a 32bit java/tomcat install?

The exact limit varies depending on the details of the process.  Native code 
inside the JVM process may well limit the amount of contiguous virtual space 
remaining that the heap has to fit into.  There are configuration options for 
32-bit Windows to allow a 3 GB process space instead of the normal 2 GB, but 
that puts other constraints on the OS.  Not sure what can be done on a 64-bit 
Windows, since the expectation is that serious apps will be using 64-bit 
processes.

 - Chuck


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Re: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-09-29 Thread Pid
On 29/09/2010 14:53, Hans Magne Helland wrote:
 Thanks for the answers.
 
 1048 is an unusual value; are you reporting the numbers accurately?
 Shouldn't there be an MB on the end of each?  Note that it's usually better 
 to set the
 initial and maximum to the same value for server environments.
 
 This was copied from the test server, were I tried to find the memory
 limit where tomcat service would not start. I will set both to 1024mb,
 thanks :)
 
 Unless you're referring to native code inside your webapps, the above 
 statement makes no sense.
  If you do have native code, then a simple recompile will allow you to use 
 it with a 64-bit JVM.
 
 This tomcat server is running an ARS Remedy Mid-Tier application
 (version 7.5), the requirements from BMC on this version is that it
 must be a 32bit tomcat install using a 32bit java. Luckely the ARS 7.6
 version will fully support 64b java and tomcat.
 
 So 1024mb looks to be the limit on a 32bit java/tomcat install?

Just so it's clear: Tomcat is neither 32bit nor 64bit.

There are additional native components for which the bits matter, but
Tomcat itself is just Java.


p


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Description: application/pgp-keys


signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature


RE: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-09-29 Thread Jeffrey Janner
 -Original Message-
 From: Caldarale, Charles R [mailto:chuck.caldar...@unisys.com]
 Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 9:12 AM
 To: Tomcat Users List
 Subject: RE: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb
 memory assigned - windows
 
  From: Hans Magne Helland [mailto:hansma...@gmail.com]
  Subject: Re: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then
 1024mb memory assigned - windows
 
  This tomcat server is running an ARS Remedy Mid-Tier application
  (version 7.5), the requirements from BMC on this version is that it
  must be a 32bit tomcat install using a 32bit java.
 
 Since I'm not familiar with BMC's products, that didn't really answer
 the question: does the webapp include native code?  If not, then the
 webapp won't be able to tell the difference between 32- and 64-bit
 JVMs.  Have you tried running it on a 64-bit JVM?
 
 
  So 1024mb looks to be the limit on a 32bit java/tomcat install?
 
 The exact limit varies depending on the details of the process.
Native
 code inside the JVM process may well limit the amount of contiguous
 virtual space remaining that the heap has to fit into.  There are
 configuration options for 32-bit Windows to allow a 3 GB process space
 instead of the normal 2 GB, but that puts other constraints on the OS.
 Not sure what can be done on a 64-bit Windows, since the expectation
is
 that serious apps will be using 64-bit processes.
 
  - Chuck
 

Chuck is right on the limits above.  I've managed to eek out 1536Mb on
most of my 32-bit installs using Java 5/6 and Tomcat 5.5 (we've not
moved to TC6 yet - next project). Even with the 3Gb option set on the
32-bit Windows, I couldn't get much higher (search archives for exact
number).  I haven't found any way comparable option for the 32-bit
environment on the 64-bit O/S versions, but then again, I haven't
looked.  If I have 64-bit O/S, I use 64-bit Java.

One thing to note that Chuck mentioned, is there are other factors
involved in all that memory management.  Beyond any native code
requirements, there are other things like PermGen size settings that
might affect the max memory size.  I recently had a baffling problem
when trying to increase my PermGen space.  On one system, I had
increased the MaxPermGen setting to 256Mb and everything was fine.  When
I went to an identically configured machine, Tomcat would not start with
that large a setting. I could get 160Mb to startup.  I didn't try any
higher values to see what the max was, I could just tell that I was
hitting some limit.  Then I noticed that there was a slight variance in
the Tomcat configs.  The second machine had a higher Max Memory Pool
(Heap) than the first by about 512Mb. So there is some tradeoff between
PermGen space and Heap.  Check all the other settings that BMC said you
needed to set, and see if there is something there stealing the
available space.

Currently, I monitoring the two systems to see if there is an optimal
PermGen vs. Heap setting for their specific loads (which are different).
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RE: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-09-29 Thread Caldarale, Charles R
From: Jeffrey Janner [mailto:jeffrey.jan...@polydyne.com] 
Subject: RE: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory 
assigned - windows

 So there is some tradeoff between PermGen space and Heap.

The NewGen, OldGen, and PermGen areas of the heap have to be allocated in one 
contiguous chunk of process space in a HotSpot JVM.

 - Chuck


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RE: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-09-29 Thread Jeffrey Janner
Chuck I don't want to restart the memory allocation wars, primarily
because I'm not totally sure on my stance, but I'm pretty sure that
PermGen is not part of Heap.  I'm particularly basing this on what I'm
currently seeing in the Memory tab of jconsole.  It breaks up memory
into Heap and Non-Heap sections.  It further breaks those down into the
following:

Heap:  PS Eden Space, PS Survivor Space, and PS Old Gen
Non-Head:  Code cache and PS Perm Gen

Now, when I click on the Heap section, it shows a Max very close to my
-Xmx setting. It's hard to say if equal, since I specify in Mb and it
reads in kbytes, but it does appear lower than I would expect. For
example: a -Xmx768m ends up with a setting of 757,312 kbytes. The
Non-Heap section max is always higher than my -XX:MaxPermSize setting
and appears to be a total of the Code Cache size and the PS PermGen
size.  Since I'm not specifying a value for the Code Cache it is
consistently 32,768 kbytes.  For a MaxPermSize of 256M, I get a Max
reading of 262,144 kbytes.  That is exactly 256 * 1024, so you'd think
that my Heap of 768m would generate a Max value of 786,432 kbytes, but
you end up with a value smaller by 29,102 kbytes.  I wonder where that
went? I think I know.  First, the Max when you click on Heap isn't
accurate.  If you add up the total of the 3 spaces, you get much closer
to the -Xmx setting, but are still a little short.  As I recall, the
Survivor Space is really two spaces used alternately during GCs, and
surprisingly the missing amount is almost exactly the same as the
Survivor space number.  However, I'm still stumped as to why the Max
Heap reading is so much lower than the -Xmx setting you have you
believe, or a manual totaling of the 3 segments shows it to be.  Of
course, it appears that the max readings for at least the Eden and
Survivor spaces can change over time, so perhaps there is just reserved
space in case those sections need to expand a little.  In about an hour
of monitoring, the Old Gen max size never budged.

I will agree with your assertion that it all has to be allocated
contiguously.

Also, please note these are all numbers for a Java 5 implementation,
though Java 6 (64-bit) shows the same patterns of allocation noted
above.

 -Original Message-
 From: Caldarale, Charles R [mailto:chuck.caldar...@unisys.com]
 Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 12:14 PM
 To: Tomcat Users List
 Subject: RE: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb
 memory assigned - windows
 
 From: Jeffrey Janner [mailto:jeffrey.jan...@polydyne.com]
 Subject: RE: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb
 memory assigned - windows
 
  So there is some tradeoff between PermGen space and Heap.
 
 The NewGen, OldGen, and PermGen areas of the heap have to be allocated
 in one contiguous chunk of process space in a HotSpot JVM.
 
  - Chuck
 
 
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 delete the e-mail and its attachments from all computers.
 
 
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RE: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-09-29 Thread Caldarale, Charles R
 From: Jeffrey Janner [mailto:jeffrey.jan...@polydyne.com] 
 Subject: RE: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory 
 assigned - windows

 I'm pretty sure that PermGen is not part of Heap.

I wasn't saying that PermGen was part of the regular heap; all I stated was 
that the regular heap (NewGen, OldGen) *and* PermGen are allocated in a 
contiguous chunk of process space.  Just saying heap is a bit ambiguous, 
because in some contexts the term includes PermGen, whereas for the -Xmx 
and-Xms settings, it does not.

 - Chuck


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RE: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-09-29 Thread Jeffrey Janner
 -Original Message-
 From: Caldarale, Charles R [mailto:chuck.caldar...@unisys.com]
 Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 1:44 PM
 To: Tomcat Users List
 Subject: RE: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb
 memory assigned - windows
 
  From: Jeffrey Janner [mailto:jeffrey.jan...@polydyne.com]
  Subject: RE: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then
 1024mb memory assigned - windows
 
  I'm pretty sure that PermGen is not part of Heap.
 
 I wasn't saying that PermGen was part of the regular heap; all I
stated
 was that the regular heap (NewGen, OldGen) *and* PermGen are allocated
 in a contiguous chunk of process space.  Just saying heap is a bit
 ambiguous, because in some contexts the term includes PermGen, whereas
 for the -Xmx and-Xms settings, it does not.

Sorry, I thought you were lumping it in there.  Didn't mean to
mis-understand.  

It is probably better termed that the JVM will allocate all required
memory in a contiguous block at startup and that includes memory for the
JVM itself as well as settings for Heap and Non-Heap memory.
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Re: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-09-29 Thread Christopher Schultz
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Chuck,

On 9/29/2010 1:14 PM, Caldarale, Charles R wrote:
 From: Jeffrey Janner [mailto:jeffrey.jan...@polydyne.com] Subject:
 RE: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory
 assigned - windows
 
 So there is some tradeoff between PermGen space and Heap.
 
 The NewGen, OldGen, and PermGen areas of the heap have to be
 allocated in one contiguous chunk of process space in a HotSpot JVM.

Is that one contiguous chunk of space in generation, or do all three
have to be contiguous with each other?

- -chris
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Re: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-09-29 Thread Christopher Schultz
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Jeffrey,

On 9/29/2010 2:38 PM, Jeffrey Janner wrote:
 I'm pretty sure that
 PermGen is not part of Heap.

It's not, and easy to test empirically:

$ java -Xmx16M -XX:MaxPermSize=32M -showversion

This command works, therefore PermGen is not part of the heap.

- -chris
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RE: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-09-29 Thread Caldarale, Charles R
 From: Christopher Schultz [mailto:ch...@christopherschultz.net] 
 Subject: Re: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory 
 assigned - windows

 This command works, therefore PermGen is not part of the heap.

PermGen is clearly not part of the -Xmx setting, but in some contexts (such as 
GC discussions), it is often lumped in with what you might call the true heap 
areas.

 - Chuck


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RE: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory assigned - windows

2010-09-29 Thread Caldarale, Charles R
 From: Christopher Schultz [mailto:ch...@christopherschultz.net] 
 Subject: Re: apache-tomcat-6.0.29 will not start with more then 1024mb memory 
 assigned - windows

 Is that one contiguous chunk of space in generation, or do 
 all three have to be contiguous with each other?

All three are contiguous with each other.

 - Chuck


THIS COMMUNICATION MAY CONTAIN CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR OTHERWISE PROPRIETARY 
MATERIAL and is thus for use only by the intended recipient. If you received 
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