Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
Sorry Igor. I pack wicket app, simple wicket demo app, very well in WAR layout. If I`m not right please point me to point where wicket app border is extending WAR layout border. Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:36 Predmet: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! what you all seem to not be able to comprehend is that applications DO NOT come in a WAR layout. the war file is packaged together by combining different things from different places, and this is what the build tools are for (whether it be ant or maven). -igor On 08 Sep 2007 22:33:06 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: Jesus. Time spended at this endless talk read and write could be spent in writing one simple Demo app. Simple demo app reqest is very legitimate. And my vote is for demo app without Ant, Maven also. Demo App just based supposed basic knowledge of Servlet technologies, or just be familiar with WAR directory layout. Wicket is realy very simple so it would be good if this simplicity would be underscored also by demo app. Maven has its good points and also weak ones. But generaly it is used mostly on company levels and not on the levles of individial newbies. Most of them just know hov to write servlet, JSP and so on. and this I think major part of framework newbies needs to understand strength of wicket. Maven ads some virtual complication to the proces that not many newbies know maven and when seen first time they can be scared of it. So they can back off. IMHO one needs to firstly understand basic concepts, based just on very simple premises like beeign familiar with WAR and t hen this concept could be widened by using maven and point out some benefits of it. Maven + Wicket for firstimers can be simple too much and can leed to presumption that Wicket must be used with Maven. IMHO More didactic way maybe should be. 1. Needed prereq of WAR file layout 2. setup Wicket demo app on this knowledge. 3. Descrivbe what is behind curtain of wicket app on one simple wicket tag decorator. 4. describe how to enhance using Maven. Wicket is framework which is fast learnable and I beleave when getting the point you can write application within just one hour. More didactic aproach to demo could lead to greater adoption As soon as I finish my work of testing some frameworks, this could be within two weeks I can write some demo app with simple explanation taking more didactic aproach :-) just let me know to whom I can send it, and the format of the wiki. Confrontation at this thread is just useless ... Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: chickabee Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 15:06 Predmet: Re: First Day Disgust! Thanks for providing me the primer on web applications and Ant and for not trying to understand what point I am trying to make here. Yes, we are not dealing with nuclear science here and Yes again wicket is just another web application, Did someone disagree with that. I hope not. Once you are out in the market to try the new webapps then it always makes sense to have people be able to get up and running on the basics w/o efforts and not to have to deal with tricks necessary to get basic app to work. A common expectation is a simple standalone app without Maven/Spring/Hibernate etc unnecessary stuff. Run \\\'ant\\\' on the command line and here u have the war file, now, make a few changes to experiment and then run \\\'ant\\\' again to have modified war. Simple. Obviously the current example is for the comfort of wicket creators and not for the comfort of prospective users and that is the problem here. Any one with basic common sense will get this up and running after a day\\\'s tinkering around, but that can be avoided by adding simple things here in the examples, that is the point I am trying to sell here only if there are buyers out there with open mind. Al Maw wrote: chickabee wrote: Thanks for the great idea. Note that this is displayed fairly prominently on the web site at http://wicket.apache.org under \\\QuickStart\\\. It believe it will be good to put a few of the examples application in their own folders and war files so that they can be studied independently without the clutter of 20 projects. We used to have this, however, grouping all the examples into one project has several big advantages: - Getting all the examples running in your IDE is much easier. - We don\\\'t have ten extra projects to manage the build files for. - We can easily link to all the examples from a single page. Another thing I notice is that maven is the default build tool used for wicket, I guess it will be good to provide the ant build.xml, just in case someone does
Re: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
It will Igor, just go on ... Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:46 Predmet: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! i would if that made any sense... -igor On 08 Sep 2007 22:52:05 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: Sorry Igor. I pack wicket app, simple wicket demo app, very well in WAR layout. If I`m not right please point me to point where wicket app border is extending WAR layout border. Robo __ http://www.tahaj.sk - Stiahnite si najnovsie verzie vasich oblubenych programov - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
May be a little bit of respect and honesty to wicket newcomers, and also understand why there are their needs and be abowe the matter , would help you ... Yet another useless atack ... teacher ... - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:49 Predmet: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! http://www.boingboing.net/2007/08/20/flowchart-is-it-fcke.html ^ somehow seems appropriate to this thread -igor __ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Wicket maven archetype
Works, Thanks - Originálna Správa - Od: Gwyn Evans Komu: Poslaná: 07.09.2007 11:00 Predmet: Re: Wicket maven archetype On Friday, September 7, 2007, 9:38:53 AM, Al wrote: Gwyn Evans wrote: It\'s a bug in the Maven Surefire plugin V2.3 that shows up if there\'s a src/test/java tree but neither JUnit or TestNG in the dependencies. Simplest fix is to add junit junit 3.8.2 provided to the generated pom.xml\'s section. I\'ve added it to the code for the archetype in SVN, but can\'t do anything about the one already published in beta3. That should surely be test? Regards, Al Well caught - must be more careful when I cut paste! /Gwyn - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ http://www.tahaj.sk - Stiahnite si najnovsie verzie vasich oblubenych programov - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace
\; Wicket Examples HelloWorldApplication org.apache.wicket.protocol.http.WicketFilter applicationClassName wicket.examples.helloworld.HelloWorldApplication HelloWorldApplication /app/* --- So please explain me why Tomcat is complaining at deployment time about velocity just including it in the build path? Regards Robo. - Originálna Správa - Od: Gwyn Evans Komu: Robo Poslaná: 06.09.2007 10:34 Predmet: Re: Wicket libraries On Thursday, September 6, 2007, 5:57:53 AM, Robo wrote: Ok, seems removing \\\wicket-velocity-1.3.0-beta3.jar\\\ from build path solved problem with velocity problem. But please explain me why removing package from build path solves the problem if nowhere in my Hello World code i call for any of the velocity packages. Is there some duplicities in packages or what? Well, without seeing your code or the full stacktrace, we can\'t be sure. There\'s always a chance that you\'ve left a that uses Velocity in the web.xml, for instance. As to Maven2. It seems that like you in some way force developers to Maven2. :-) In one sense, we do. If users who have problems are able to provide examples of their issues as QuickStart apps, then we\'re able to investigate and fix a lot easier. By using Maven and sticking to the standard project layout, we provide a layout familiar to a significant number of Java developers, thus minimising obstacles to getting them going. In wicket inAction EA there is just mentioned that when using Ant you need to do some work about libraries ant Maven manages it for you. This is too little for serious docs. Please do look into Icefaces free docs. There is steb by step mentioned what libs one need to enable which feature and the libs are added as demo app more feature ritch. Developer needs to understand core functionalities and dependencies. Just After understandig this developer is able to set up Ant project, make project, Eclipse or Netbeans based project and if you want also Maven. :-) But many of the advices about libs was \\\Use Maven2\\\ like. If you use it, so use it but do not force me to use it. We don\'t force you to use it, but if you do choose to swim upstream, you must expect to have to put in some extra work yourself. The information\'s there in easily accessible form and most users seem to manage find use it, even those who wish to use build systems other than Maven. The main issue that would occur with having a separate document detailing dependances is that it needs keeping in sync, which is why the one that I know of (and has been referenced recently) is one generated from the Maven build files. Frankly, any Java developer worth the name should be at least aware of how to read Maven pom.xml files in order to determine things such as dependances, in the same way that in the past, a basic familiarity with Makefiles and build.xml files would have been expected. Explain in some part od book or docs what do I need to run which part of wicket to save my time to go into jars and solve dependencies troubles. Yes Maven solves you some problems with dependecies and also si suitable for small pr oject but at big projects it definitely fails. :-/ Does the phrase \When in a hole, stop digging\ mean anything to you? While \'big\' is subjective, there are many projects that I\'d consider \'big\' that are quite happily using Maven - maybe the problem\'s not with the tool? So please. I know you have lot of work with wicket, and as users can see you have a good aproach. But please do spend some time to at least write one chapter about libraries, neede dependencies and so on. If you have licensing problems just make one clear site with core libs link, dep libs link and explanation what feature they are enabling and so on. The point is, this is all documented in the pom.xml, where you can be sure that it\'s up-to-date correct, as else the builds would fail - if extracted into a document, you\'d never be 100% sure it wasn\'t out-of-date... And make some quick start page in which you explainn dependecies on simple sample app :-) $ mvn archetype:create -DarchetypeGroupId=org.apache.wicket -DarchetypeArtifactId=wicket-archetype-quickstart -DarchetypeVersion=1.3.0-beta3 -DgroupId=com.mycompany -DartifactId=myproject $ cd myproject $ more pom.xml one Joke. Americans was looking for some pen, which could be used in space without troubles, They invested 1 000 000 $ in research and finally had one. Russians in the meantime used pencils. :-) Yes, that one\'s false too - http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp. Lead pencils were used on all Mercury and Gemini space flights and all Russian space flights prior to 1968. Fisher Space Pens are more dependable than lead pencils and cannot create the hazard of a broken piece of lead floating
Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace
And why not? Besides that Wicket is doing some initialization of not used libraries is there any restriction of not including not neccesary libraries in classpath? Most time I develop someting I have many libraries in my classpath even if I do not use them ... Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Eelco Hillenius\ Komu: Poslaná: 06.09.2007 18:09 Predmet: Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace On 06 Sep 2007 11:44:56 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: Ok Thnaks for explanation. And do not look for truth in jokes. Jokes are just jokes ;-) But you are not using Velocity panel right? Why do you include that jar in the first place? You can just include the core wicket jar. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Mozaika storočia denníka SME - http://mozaika.sme.sk - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace
After small troubles I had with it I know it. But from my point of view it is not correct to initiatie not used libraries just by including it in App Server classpath. From my point of view lib is lib, and when nto called by developer it sould not be initiated by App server. I runned into troubles with dependecies SELF initialized itself. I saw this behaviur several times before but everytime I`m suprised. As I said from my point of view, lib is lib. But this guides me to troubles :-) But to be concrete I need to develop demo app using fove frameworks, not using Maven :-), so I put every lib in wicket into lib dir to not to solve missing lib troubles when building demo app. But it raised contrary, unnessesary \self living\ lib problem. So Eelco we could probably close this thread as my troubles with Hello World are solved, now begins the trouble with demo app. So thanks for help and good product. Demo app will be presented week after next week so we`ll see hov wicket compares to other frameworks. Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Eelco Hillenius\ Komu: Poslaná: 06.09.2007 18:17 Predmet: Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace On 06 Sep 2007 17:23:13 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: And why not? Besides that Wicket is doing some initialization of not used libraries is there any restriction of not including not neccesary libraries in classpath? Most time I develop someting I have many libraries in my classpath even if I do not use them ... Because you seem to be running into trouble with your dependencies. If you include wicket-velocity, you need Velocity (which you could have guessed from the name of the project) and any dependencies Velocity has. If don\'t include wicket-velocity, you don\'t need Velocity. It\'s that simple. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Sprievodca herným svetom - http://hry.sme.sk/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries
Sorry Eelco but me and also quite a lot of other developers(I know, contrary to others developers) consider same b.s. libraries which are \alive\ just because they are in classpath. It is like talking when nobody asks you ... Look at Java SDK do you need all packages to build console \Hello World!\ No. And who cares. They are just there and do their stuff when needed. So why wicket-velocity is doing job developer do not want and did not asked to. Where is writen that I cannot put mindesly tens of useles libs when they just sit there, assuming of course the packages are not duplicating. Do you understand why there are packages Eelco. Unles the class is uniqeu develioper should not be afreaid of using other class he wanted. To push your false premise to edge, why you deliberatly put all packages and classes into jar when you need just few of them also with dependencies. Isn`t it b.s.? Yes it is .. and also it is not conceptual ... Do not make zombie libraries and there will be no problem with dependecies. Got the point? If not I`m not alble not help you sorry ... Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Eelco Hillenius\ Komu: Poslaná: 06.09.2007 18:59 Predmet: Re: Re: Wicket libraries Java jars are nto at all complex beast. They become tricky in situation where you just put some of them inclasspath and they do what you normally do not expect. Lib should be lib and when not called by developer they should do nothing. Deliberatly breaking this rule makes the jars, beast ... :-) Sorry, but that is b.s. Could you point me where this \'rule\' is defined? You bet you can have troubles if you just mindlessly include all kinds of jars. Furthermore, what is your whole point of having to include jars you are not using? If you would be using them, you\'d need those other dependencies, period. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Najoriginalnejsie technologicke hracky - http://pocitace.sme.sk/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace
Yes I know Eelco. That is why there are so much troubles in Java programming land. Misusing of basic concepts ... That is why one needs some sort of COC, because there is lot`s of b.s. around ... J2EE 1.4 countained so much of it that lots of developers refused to use it And it had to be rewriten ... Apache Struts ... JSF ... Why did you started Wicket? Did`nt you wrote that MVC is kind of missconceptin? And I ask you Who told that? Eelco Hilenius? Yes and you were probably right. And in that time you with the tapestry was alone against the JSF Struts community. So accpet pleace that someone else is seeing miisconceptions and b.s. in other aspetcs of java programming and habits. OK? :-) Can we finish? As you can see I do not share view of major java programmers but accepting the situation ... :-)) Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Eelco Hillenius\ Komu: Poslaná: 06.09.2007 19:08 Predmet: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace On 06 Sep 2007 18:11:09 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: After small troubles I had with it I know it. But from my point of view it is not correct to initiatie not used libraries just by including it in App Server classpath. From my point of view lib is lib, and when nto called by developer it sould not be initiated by App server. I runned into troubles with dependecies SELF initialized itself. I saw this behaviur several times before but everytime I`m suprised. As I said from my point of view, lib is lib. But this guides me to troubles :-) But to be concrete I need to develop demo app using fove frameworks, not using Maven :-), so I put every lib in wicket into lib dir to not to solve missing lib troubles when building demo app. But it raised contrary, unnessesary \\\self living\\\ lib problem. You can\'t really depend on libs following such rules. All sorts of frameworks do this, from Guice to Seam to logging libraries, and it can get you in trouble with XML handling as well. As a general rule, only include what you need. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Mozaika storočia denníka SME - http://mozaika.sme.sk - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace
Sorry Eelco but I did not start this small personal war. In my previus of topic marked post I said lot of good about wicket and made lot of PLEASE do this ... I know you have lot of work ... IMHO ... and so on ... Also thanked to Gwyn? ... :-))) Al getted touched about my troubles with Maven, you started to talking b.s. and mindless way of something and started to solve and the same time started to solve some morality questions and so on. Gwyn started to look for truth in Joke :-)) POint me in one of my post when I said about Maven, or your work, that it is b.s. or mindless something. ... YOu will not find it. And also any personal negative sentences towards to any of the developers. I`m not trying to be polite. I`m rying to be correct to people. At the same time you are too polite and agresive ... :-) So after more than 26 hours of programming and mailing I`ll go for a Little bit of sleep. :-)) Bye Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Eelco Hillenius\ Komu: Poslaná: 06.09.2007 19:54 Predmet: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wicket libraries stack trace On 06 Sep 2007 18:32:44 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: Yes I know Eelco. That is why there are so much troubles in Java programming land. Misusing of basic concepts ... That is why one needs some sort of COC, because there is lot`s of b.s. around ... J2EE 1.4 countained so much of it that lots of developers refused to use it And it had to be rewriten ... Apache Struts ... JSF ... Why did you started Wicket? Did`nt you wrote that MVC is kind of missconceptin? And I ask you Who told that? Eelco Hilenius? Yes and you were probably right. And in that time you with the tapestry was alone against the JSF Struts community. So accpet pleace that someone else is seeing miisconceptions and b.s. in other aspetcs of java programming and habits. OK? :-) Sure. You know, if you would just try to have a little bit more of a constructive tone... I\'m sure we can patch wicket-velocity so that it avoids pulling in Velocity too early. And maybe the project tries to do too much upfront. Should be pretty easy to fix if you want to create a JIRA issue for it. About calling initializers (that\'s what triggers Velocity loading in this case), the feature is generally nice. We can use it to e.g. automatically register shared resources or like wicket-jmx does, register resources, so that to enable functionality in that lib is as easy as dropping in a jar. That\'s pretty cool functionality in my book. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Najpopulárnejší blog na Slovensku - http://blog.sme.sk/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Wicket libraries
Hello Al. I worked on some big project where Maven was used(or misused) and form that tme I refuse to solve Maven troubles so Skipping the Maven stuff as this is nto the case: I used to manage dependencies myself and I buil Hello WOrld Application from scratch. Just Hello World. Until I put velocity-1.4.jar and velocity-dep-1.4.jar I have got following errors at deploy time. 5.9.2007 14:31:37 org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext filterStart SEVERE: Exception starting filter HelloWorldApplication java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/apache/commons/collections/ExtendedProperties at org.apache.velocity.runtime.RuntimeInstance.(RuntimeInstance.java:160) at org.apache.velocity.runtime.RuntimeSingleton.(RuntimeSingleton.java:95) at org.apache.velocity.app.Velocity.init(Velocity.java:106) . 5.9.2007 14:31:38 org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext filterStart SEVERE: Exception starting filter HelloWorldApplication java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/apache/commons/collections/ExtendedProperties at org.apache.velocity.runtime.RuntimeInstance.(RuntimeInstance.java:160) at org.apache.velocity.runtime.RuntimeSingleton.(RuntimeSingleton.java:95) at org.apache.velocity.app.Velocity.init(Velocity.java:106) . So there is sure dependency in Wicket why developer needs to include these two velocity packages. This is the plus and cons of self managing libraries ... :-) Sure one can find libraries in examples folder but this is not conceptual aproach. I need runtime libraries and expect them exactly where they has to be and not looking for needed libs in examples/demo/tutor directories. There is so much wicket*.jar duplicated libraries that duplicating log4j and velocity is minor in package size question. So if you do not want duplicity do not duplicate even wicket libs, or if you wanrt completness include also libs needed to be wicket usable out of the box :-) Robert - Originálna Správa - Od: Al Maw Komu: Poslaná: 05.09.2007 14:56 Predmet: Re: Wicket libraries Robo wrote: Why there is no complete distribution of jar`s, needed to run Wicket aplication just \\\out of the box\\\. it is a little bit boring to find out that I also need to download slf4j and velocity. I uderstand that this info is writen on your page but I would expect just download one tar (zip) unpackit to my classpath write demo and run it. Contrary to lib where one would expect them they are included in example`s war. We give you a ready-to-run WAR file which has all the dependencies for the projects. If we included the JAR files in addition to this, we\'d double the size of the download. It\'s an already-sizeable 14.8Mb for the ZIP. If you use Maven 2, it will manage the dependencies for you. If you choose to manage your dependencies manually, then you will obviously have some work to do. and understand why I need org.apache.velocity packages when I do not use it, is simply confusing me. does Wicket from clear and nice programming go to something unclear and confused? And can someone point me to some link where there is explained why when I develop simple HelloWorld application I need also org.apache.velocity. You don\'t. You need that for things that use the wicket-velocity project. Such as wicket-examples, which has example code for that. If you want a complete list of dependencies for each project, please find it here: http://herebebeasties.com/static/wicket-dependencies.txt Regards, Al -- Alastair Maw Wicket-biased blog at http://herebebeasties.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ http://kultura.sme.sk/ - Informačný server o kultúre a šoubiznise - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
