Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

2013-04-26 Thread Alexey Mukas
Hi Andrew,

For UI we use jquery ui, select2, noty and other js components. Integration
is pretty simple in wicket.
We don't really need any UI designer or CRUD form generation, we just create
html then bind it to the logic. CRUD generation could be added easily if
needed.
Basic core services as you said, in our case is something that allows us
to work rapidly, may be because we don't work on a CRUD app...

I forgot to mention one very nice tool - lombok. It significantly decreases
amount lines in code.



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Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

2013-04-26 Thread Vit Rozkovec

Hi,
in past there was project Wicket Web Beans that we have used, but it is 
dead now.
You could just pass an annotated bean object and form would be created 
for you.

There were also components to list records along with basic CRUD operations.


There is also one project - Wicketopia - http://wicketopia.sourceforge.net/
which may server the same purpose but I haven't tried it yet..


Vit





On 26.4.2013 08:01, Alexey Mukas wrote:

Hi Andrew,

For UI we use jquery ui, select2, noty and other js components. Integration
is pretty simple in wicket.
We don't really need any UI designer or CRUD form generation, we just create
html then bind it to the logic. CRUD generation could be added easily if
needed.
Basic core services as you said, in our case is something that allows us
to work rapidly, may be because we don't work on a CRUD app...

I forgot to mention one very nice tool - lombok. It significantly decreases
amount lines in code.



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Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

2013-04-26 Thread Martin Grigorov
Hi Andrew,

On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Andrew Schetinin ascheti...@gmail.comwrote:

 Hi Alexey,

 RAD requires a set of good visual components (not a strong side of Wicket,
 unfortunately), and one of the two features - either a visual form editor
 (10 years ago), or automated CRUD forms generation (today) - again not a
 strong side of Wicket.

 In our case, we had to implement the second option, suitable for our needs


Can you explain what do you mean by suitable for our needs ?
From your message above this phrase it seems RAD/CRUD are something
universal that will fit any needs. But then you say _our needs_ ...

This is the reason why there are no such at the moment. Or at least not
widely used.
Some examples:
- https://sites.google.com/site/wicketrad/ (abandoned few years ago)
- http://wicketwebbeans.sourceforge.net/ (abandoned few years ago)
- https://github.com/jwcarman/Wicketopia  (maintained, but there are no
many users)
and I left the one that is very well maintained for the end:
- http://isis.apache.org/ (see it Wicket Viewer) (very well maintained. I
have no information how many users it has)


 - at least Wicket is more or less okay for that.


I agree. It is very easy to roll your own solution that fits _your_ needs.



 Mentioned services are basic core services, I'd say low-level - they are
 necessary, but they don't mean RAD. For RAD, you need something like Rails
 or Grails.


Then you will figure out that Ruby/Groovy performance is not that good and
you will have to reimplement your prototype with something else ...



 Regards,

 Andrew Schetinin


This is just my personal opinion.



 On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 10:37 PM, Alexey Mukas alexey.mu...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  In our project we are using the following tools/libs:
   - hibernate;
   - LiquiBase (db migration);
   - wro4j (for merging/compiling js, less and coffee script);
   - slf4j + logback;
   - selenium;
   - testng;
   - jmockit;
   - jmeter.
 
 
 
  --
  View this message in context:
 
 http://apache-wicket.1842946.n4.nabble.com/What-is-your-setup-for-Rapid-Application-Development-tp4658278p4658282.html
  Sent from the Users forum mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
 
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jWeekend
Training, Consulting, Development
http://jWeekend.com http://jweekend.com/


Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

2013-04-26 Thread Andrew Schetinin
Hi Martin,

See inside...

On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Martin Grigorov mgrigo...@apache.orgwrote:

 Hi Andrew,

 On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Andrew Schetinin ascheti...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  In our case, we had to implement the second option, suitable for our
 needs

 Can you explain what do you mean by suitable for our needs ?
 From your message above this phrase it seems RAD/CRUD are something
 universal that will fit any needs. But then you say _our needs_ ...


We have a pretty basic framework that allows defining an edit form logic in
Java without touching any HTML, and the HTML is generated automatically
from common blocks.
The idea is basic and universal, but the implementation is relatively
tightly coupled with the back-end, and making it more generic (or even
open-sourcing it) requires significant efforts - not something we can do at
this stage.

This is the reason why there are no such at the moment. Or at least not
 widely used.


That's right - it requires a lot of efforts to maintain any framework. From
the other side - consider Rails and Grails - they do have to have RAD GUI
and they are very successful mostly because of that fact.

  - http://isis.apache.org/ (see it Wicket Viewer) (very well maintained. I

 have no information how many users it has)


I considered this one for one of the last projects, but found its
documentation lacking, and decided it is not enough supported.


 Then you will figure out that Ruby/Groovy performance is not that good and
 you will have to reimplement your prototype with something else ...


Well, that's a holy war topic :-) I better will not touch it :-)

Regards,

Andrew

--
Andrew Schetinin


Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

2013-04-26 Thread Dan Simko
Please take a look also on https://github.com/brix-cms/brix-cms/wiki


On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Andrew Schetinin ascheti...@gmail.comwrote:

 Hi Martin,

 See inside...

 On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Martin Grigorov mgrigo...@apache.org
 wrote:

  Hi Andrew,
 
  On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Andrew Schetinin ascheti...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
   In our case, we had to implement the second option, suitable for our
  needs
 
  Can you explain what do you mean by suitable for our needs ?
  From your message above this phrase it seems RAD/CRUD are something
  universal that will fit any needs. But then you say _our needs_ ...
 

 We have a pretty basic framework that allows defining an edit form logic in
 Java without touching any HTML, and the HTML is generated automatically
 from common blocks.
 The idea is basic and universal, but the implementation is relatively
 tightly coupled with the back-end, and making it more generic (or even
 open-sourcing it) requires significant efforts - not something we can do at
 this stage.

 This is the reason why there are no such at the moment. Or at least not
  widely used.
 

 That's right - it requires a lot of efforts to maintain any framework. From
 the other side - consider Rails and Grails - they do have to have RAD GUI
 and they are very successful mostly because of that fact.

   - http://isis.apache.org/ (see it Wicket Viewer) (very well maintained.
 I

  have no information how many users it has)
 

 I considered this one for one of the last projects, but found its
 documentation lacking, and decided it is not enough supported.


  Then you will figure out that Ruby/Groovy performance is not that good
 and
  you will have to reimplement your prototype with something else ...
 
 
 Well, that's a holy war topic :-) I better will not touch it :-)

 Regards,

 Andrew

 --
 Andrew Schetinin



Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

2013-04-26 Thread Martin Grigorov
Hi Andrew,


On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Andrew Schetinin ascheti...@gmail.comwrote:

 Hi Martin,

 See inside...

 On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Martin Grigorov mgrigo...@apache.org
 wrote:

  Hi Andrew,
 
  On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Andrew Schetinin ascheti...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
   In our case, we had to implement the second option, suitable for our
  needs
 
  Can you explain what do you mean by suitable for our needs ?
  From your message above this phrase it seems RAD/CRUD are something
  universal that will fit any needs. But then you say _our needs_ ...
 

 We have a pretty basic framework that allows defining an edit form logic in
 Java without touching any HTML, and the HTML is generated automatically
 from common blocks.
 The idea is basic and universal, but the implementation is relatively
 tightly coupled with the back-end, and making it more generic (or even
 open-sourcing it) requires significant efforts - not something we can do at
 this stage.

 This is the reason why there are no such at the moment. Or at least not
  widely used.
 

 That's right - it requires a lot of efforts to maintain any framework. From


It is not the maintenance cost the problem.
The reason why these frameworks have been abandoned is because there were
no users for them. Or at least not enough.


 the other side - consider Rails and Grails - they do have to have RAD GUI
 and they are very successful mostly because of that fact.

   - http://isis.apache.org/ (see it Wicket Viewer) (very well maintained.
 I

  have no information how many users it has)
 

 I considered this one for one of the last projects, but found its
 documentation lacking, and decided it is not enough supported.


The Isis developers are very friendly and they provide fast support in
their mailing lists.
I hope you have told them that you have considered Isis but choose to roll
your own solution because their docs are lacking. Without your feedback it
wont get better by itself ;-)


But even that I know about Isis, and their great support in forums, etc. I
would still prefer to create my own solution for the problem because it
will be much easier for me.



  Then you will figure out that Ruby/Groovy performance is not that good
 and
  you will have to reimplement your prototype with something else ...
 
 
 Well, that's a holy war topic :-) I better will not touch it :-)

 Regards,

 Andrew

 --
 Andrew Schetinin




-- 
Martin Grigorov
jWeekend
Training, Consulting, Development
http://jWeekend.com http://jweekend.com/


Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

2013-04-26 Thread Andrew Schetinin
Hi Martin,

On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Martin Grigorov mgrigo...@apache.orgwrote:

 Hi Andrew,

 On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Andrew Schetinin ascheti...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 It is not the maintenance cost the problem.
 The reason why these frameworks have been abandoned is because there were
 no users for them. Or at least not enough.


Then again - I'm wondering why Grails and Rails are successful (huge user
base) and these frameworks are not (don't have enough users) :-)
Grails and Rails are simply very good RAD tools, isn't that right?
I strongly believe that Wicket would be able to attract much larger user
base if only it would have a better set of UI components, and better RAD
tooling.
The situation improves lately, but very slowly - not fast enough to
complete with other frameworks.



 I hope you have told them that you have considered Isis but choose to roll
 your own solution because their docs are lacking. Without your feedback it
 wont get better by itself ;-)


I considered Isis for a separate new project with lots of admin UI, and
compared it against Play (1 or 2) and Grails. Finally I've decided to go
with Grails in that case.
Our main product was started quite some time ago, long before Isis (or long
before I had learned about Isis).
Back than we also seriously considered Grails as a Wicket alternative, and
started using Wicket due to performance. Honestly, I'm still wondering
about correctness of that decision, but that's another story :-)



 But even that I know about Isis, and their great support in forums, etc. I
 would still prefer to create my own solution for the problem because it
 will be much easier for me.


Personally, I'd prefer to have a rich framework to start building upon,
instead of developing another bicycle.

Regards,

Andrew

--
Andrew Schetinin


Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

2013-04-26 Thread Andrew Schetinin
Hi Alexey,

Well, you're right.

To me, RAD was always about GUI prototyping or massive GUI development,
turning around code generation tools.

I've checked the terminology and found that it is a broader term, even
mixed up with Agile and Scrum which are more about project management and
not about tools.

So if we're talking about more general tools for quickening the application
development, your toolset is very good.

Regards,

Andrew

On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Alexey Mukas alexey.mu...@gmail.comwrote:

 Hi Andrew,

 For UI we use jquery ui, select2, noty and other js components. Integration
 is pretty simple in wicket.
 We don't really need any UI designer or CRUD form generation, we just
 create
 html then bind it to the logic. CRUD generation could be added easily if
 needed.
 Basic core services as you said, in our case is something that allows us
 to work rapidly, may be because we don't work on a CRUD app...

 I forgot to mention one very nice tool - lombok. It significantly decreases
 amount lines in code.



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Regards,

Andrew

--
Andrew Schetinin


Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

2013-04-26 Thread Martin Grigorov
Hi Andrew,

There are different tools for different tasks. That's clear.
You prefer tools which generate code for you, I prefer finer control.
That's OK.

About performance check
http://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r3
I'm not trying to convince you anything :-)



On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 11:01 AM, Andrew Schetinin ascheti...@gmail.comwrote:

 Hi Alexey,

 Well, you're right.

 To me, RAD was always about GUI prototyping or massive GUI development,
 turning around code generation tools.

 I've checked the terminology and found that it is a broader term, even
 mixed up with Agile and Scrum which are more about project management and
 not about tools.

 So if we're talking about more general tools for quickening the application
 development, your toolset is very good.

 Regards,

 Andrew

 On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Alexey Mukas alexey.mu...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Hi Andrew,
 
  For UI we use jquery ui, select2, noty and other js components.
 Integration
  is pretty simple in wicket.
  We don't really need any UI designer or CRUD form generation, we just
  create
  html then bind it to the logic. CRUD generation could be added easily if
  needed.
  Basic core services as you said, in our case is something that allows
 us
  to work rapidly, may be because we don't work on a CRUD app...
 
  I forgot to mention one very nice tool - lombok. It significantly
 decreases
  amount lines in code.
 
 
 
  --
  View this message in context:
 
 http://apache-wicket.1842946.n4.nabble.com/What-is-your-setup-for-Rapid-Application-Development-tp4658278p4658287.html
  Sent from the Users forum mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
 
  -
  To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org
  For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
 
 


 --

 Regards,

 Andrew

 --
 Andrew Schetinin




-- 
Martin Grigorov
jWeekend
Training, Consulting, Development
http://jWeekend.com http://jweekend.com/


What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

2013-04-25 Thread vit our
Hello everybody,
I am evaluating Apache Wicket to be our new java framework in the company.
Would you please share your experience regarding other tools and frameworks 
you use to speed up web application development?
What persistence framework / CRUD/boilerplate generators, if any, do you 
use?
What other development tools that do their job and are nice to play with do 
you use?

Thanks a lot for any information.

Regads
Gary





Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

2013-04-25 Thread Alexey Mukas
In our project we are using the following tools/libs:
 - hibernate;
 - LiquiBase (db migration);
 - wro4j (for merging/compiling js, less and coffee script);
 - slf4j + logback;
 - selenium;
 - testng;
 - jmockit;
 - jmeter.



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Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

2013-04-25 Thread Andrew Schetinin
Hi Alexey,

RAD requires a set of good visual components (not a strong side of Wicket,
unfortunately), and one of the two features - either a visual form editor
(10 years ago), or automated CRUD forms generation (today) - again not a
strong side of Wicket.

In our case, we had to implement the second option, suitable for our needs
- at least Wicket is more or less okay for that.

Mentioned services are basic core services, I'd say low-level - they are
necessary, but they don't mean RAD. For RAD, you need something like Rails
or Grails.

Regards,

Andrew Schetinin

On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 10:37 PM, Alexey Mukas alexey.mu...@gmail.comwrote:

 In our project we are using the following tools/libs:
  - hibernate;
  - LiquiBase (db migration);
  - wro4j (for merging/compiling js, less and coffee script);
  - slf4j + logback;
  - selenium;
  - testng;
  - jmockit;
  - jmeter.



 --
 View this message in context:
 http://apache-wicket.1842946.n4.nabble.com/What-is-your-setup-for-Rapid-Application-Development-tp4658278p4658282.html
 Sent from the Users forum mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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