Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-22 Thread Andreas Hahn
[snip]
 Well, stackoverflow.com is one global site for all questions, it's not a tool 
 you can install or host.

 It's part of stackexchange which is list of QA sites.

 FYI, I've contacted the guys just to check what is the process to get such a 
 site and here's their answer:

 
 All of our sites are created through a process we call Area 51. It is the 
 staging area to propose Stack Exchange sites to the community and, if it 
 gains enough support, we create the site. Stack Exchange sites can only be 
 created via the democratic, community-driven process at Area 51. You can read 
 more about that process here: http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq.
 

 Thanks
 -Vincent


Vincent et all,

did you notice at Area 51 there is a wiki QA site proposal in 
commitment phase ?
I thought it won't hurt to commit over there although there a quite some 
votes missing for that site getting created ...
Might be a bit too general though ...
http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/13716/wikis-and-wikipedia

bye
Andreas
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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-21 Thread Vincent Massol

On Mar 14, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Andreas Hahn wrote:

 Am 14.03.2011 09:16, schrieb Vincent Massol:
 On Mar 13, 2011, at 10:00 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:
 
 Am 10.03.2011 17:39, schrieb Paul Libbrecht:
 Please contradict me!
 Paul,
 actually - how could I do this ?
 I'm not an expert in forum software so I'd to go for the naive approach
 - comparing features e.t.c.
 
 I was hoping for some insight that it is beneficial for the whole
 project to encourage users first to browse and then to participate -
 even if it means  for you and the others around here to give up beloved
 habits.
 
 Anyway - I'm not going to push you guys back to the future of Web 2.0.
 
 Given the lame participation when compared to the survey 4 years ago it
 seems to me that quite some people have already left the boat and it may
 not matter anymore.
 I'm not sure how to read your last 2 paragraphs.
 
 Just note that fro my POV there's no you and me here. There's only a 
 global community and you're part of it. That said at some point some people 
 are going to need to work to make it happen, this is where the distinction 
 will happen. How far are you willing to help? Maybe a first step would be 
 that you help find either a forum software that fits the bill or a hosted 
 service that would work for us.
 
  From the people who answered so far my feeling is that:
 * people seem to agree in general that at least for users a forum would be 
 nicer
 * since xwiki committers provide a substantial amount of answers to the user 
 list as of today it would be nice that they can continue to have the 
 information coming to me
 
 For my own FOSS project I'm hoping to start soon - I'll be going with 
 http://stackoverflow.com. Providing support means checking the site for 
 tagged questions a couple of times a day. It's just one mouse click. For me 
 it makes no real difference in getting mails or checking a forum as long as 
 you have a one-click list of open topics.

[snip]

Well, stackoverflow.com is one global site for all questions, it's not a tool 
you can install or host.

It's part of stackexchange which is list of QA sites.

FYI, I've contacted the guys just to check what is the process to get such a 
site and here's their answer:


All of our sites are created through a process we call Area 51. It is the 
staging area to propose Stack Exchange sites to the community and, if it gains 
enough support, we create the site. Stack Exchange sites can only be created 
via the democratic, community-driven process at Area 51. You can read more 
about that process here: http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq. 


Thanks
-Vincent

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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-21 Thread Vincent Massol
One thing that I find really great and I would be totally in favor of doing 
something similar for xwiki.org:


Amass enough reputation points and Area 51 grant you additional privileges:

25  Propose example questions
50  Create proposals
50  Vote for questions as great examples
50  Flag proposals or example questions
50  Leave comments on example questions
150 Vote for questions as not a good example
250 Vote to close or reopen your proposals
1000Edit other people's proposals and example questions
2000Vote to close or reopen any proposal
1   Delete questions and closed proposals; access to moderation tools


Let's see what we could come up with (imaginary scale I have no idea how 
easy/hard points are awarded by answering questions):

* 5000 allowed to add one issue to the roadmap for the next release ;)
* 50 ability to contribute a project in contrib repo
* 1 ability to vote on project directions (binding votes)
* 100 right to close issues on jira
* 250 ability to get one's own free wiki on myxwiki.org (would be kind of cool 
I think - especially since it'll prove community interaction and thus the 
ability to ask the community for myxwiki support)

I'm sure we can find lots more.

WDYT?

Thanks
-Vincent 

On Mar 21, 2011, at 2:58 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:

 
 On Mar 14, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Andreas Hahn wrote:
 
 Am 14.03.2011 09:16, schrieb Vincent Massol:
 On Mar 13, 2011, at 10:00 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:
 
 Am 10.03.2011 17:39, schrieb Paul Libbrecht:
 Please contradict me!
 Paul,
 actually - how could I do this ?
 I'm not an expert in forum software so I'd to go for the naive approach
 - comparing features e.t.c.
 
 I was hoping for some insight that it is beneficial for the whole
 project to encourage users first to browse and then to participate -
 even if it means  for you and the others around here to give up beloved
 habits.
 
 Anyway - I'm not going to push you guys back to the future of Web 2.0.
 
 Given the lame participation when compared to the survey 4 years ago it
 seems to me that quite some people have already left the boat and it may
 not matter anymore.
 I'm not sure how to read your last 2 paragraphs.
 
 Just note that fro my POV there's no you and me here. There's only a 
 global community and you're part of it. That said at some point some people 
 are going to need to work to make it happen, this is where the distinction 
 will happen. How far are you willing to help? Maybe a first step would be 
 that you help find either a forum software that fits the bill or a hosted 
 service that would work for us.
 
 From the people who answered so far my feeling is that:
 * people seem to agree in general that at least for users a forum would be 
 nicer
 * since xwiki committers provide a substantial amount of answers to the 
 user list as of today it would be nice that they can continue to have the 
 information coming to me
 
 For my own FOSS project I'm hoping to start soon - I'll be going with 
 http://stackoverflow.com. Providing support means checking the site for 
 tagged questions a couple of times a day. It's just one mouse click. For me 
 it makes no real difference in getting mails or checking a forum as long as 
 you have a one-click list of open topics.
 
 [snip]
 
 Well, stackoverflow.com is one global site for all questions, it's not a tool 
 you can install or host.
 
 It's part of stackexchange which is list of QA sites.
 
 FYI, I've contacted the guys just to check what is the process to get such a 
 site and here's their answer:
 
 
 All of our sites are created through a process we call Area 51. It is the 
 staging area to propose Stack Exchange sites to the community and, if it 
 gains enough support, we create the site. Stack Exchange sites can only be 
 created via the democratic, community-driven process at Area 51. You can read 
 more about that process here: http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq. 
 
 
 Thanks
 -Vincent
 

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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-21 Thread Andreas Hahn
Am 21.03.2011 15:11, schrieb Vincent Massol:
 One thing that I find really great and I would be totally in favor of doing 
 something similar for xwiki.org:

 
 Amass enough reputation points and Area 51 grant you additional privileges:

 25Propose example questions
 50Create proposals
 50Vote for questions as great examples
 50Flag proposals or example questions
 50Leave comments on example questions
 150   Vote for questions as not a good example
 250   Vote to close or reopen your proposals
 1000  Edit other people's proposals and example questions
 2000  Vote to close or reopen any proposal
 1 Delete questions and closed proposals; access to moderation tools
 

I like that too but I think the most compelling factor (about 
stackoverflow) is that its pretty simple to identify the most important 
information without too much reading and searching. Provided there are 
enough answers at all the reputation score helps identifying the best 
answers.  And with the  positive browsing experience as a user people 
might be encouraged to help others too. I guess there are quite a few 
active advisors that escape their routine jobs this way and share their 
knowledge on some particular topic.

bye
Andreas

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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-17 Thread Thibaut Camberlin
Hi,

IMO it makes a lot of sense to use a forum solution for users (when it does
not for devs). When I was working with WordPress software, I was reading a
lot forum threads (they are using their other product, bbPress). I wouldn't
have thought about subscribing to a mailing list, I didn't even know they
existed. I was not Open Source minded, so are a lot of people using XWiki
and willing to contribute good feedback. A forum is so much easier to read
(topics, dates, tags, rates) and much less geek.

I am +1 for a forum solution for users.

--
Thibaut

On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Andreas Hahn ah...@gmx.net wrote:

 Am 14.03.2011 09:16, schrieb Vincent Massol:
  On Mar 13, 2011, at 10:00 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:
 
  Am 10.03.2011 17:39, schrieb Paul Libbrecht:
  Please contradict me!
  Paul,
  actually - how could I do this ?
  I'm not an expert in forum software so I'd to go for the naive approach
  - comparing features e.t.c.
 
  I was hoping for some insight that it is beneficial for the whole
  project to encourage users first to browse and then to participate -
  even if it means  for you and the others around here to give up beloved
  habits.
 
  Anyway - I'm not going to push you guys back to the future of Web 2.0.
 
  Given the lame participation when compared to the survey 4 years ago it
  seems to me that quite some people have already left the boat and it may
  not matter anymore.
  I'm not sure how to read your last 2 paragraphs.
 
  Just note that fro my POV there's no you and me here. There's only a
 global community and you're part of it. That said at some point some people
 are going to need to work to make it happen, this is where the distinction
 will happen. How far are you willing to help? Maybe a first step would be
 that you help find either a forum software that fits the bill or a hosted
 service that would work for us.
 
   From the people who answered so far my feeling is that:
  * people seem to agree in general that at least for users a forum would
 be nicer
  * since xwiki committers provide a substantial amount of answers to the
 user list as of today it would be nice that they can continue to have the
 information coming to me

 For my own FOSS project I'm hoping to start soon - I'll be going with
 http://stackoverflow.com. Providing support means checking the site for
 tagged questions a couple of times a day. It's just one mouse click. For
 me it makes no real difference in getting mails or checking a forum as
 long as you have a one-click list of open topics.

 Gathering all the information about all possible options and criteria
 can get very time consuming so I think we should try to rule out
 something first.

 Forums that are operated by other providers (getsatisfaction,
 stackoverflow, ...) might
 * be discontinued without warning (see jive)
 * change their policy later (no more free forums)
 * not expose user mail addresses and forum content (or might change that
 policy) so you're locked in.
 * not be as flexible as own forums if you want to change something (add
 category, ...)

 OTOH operating an own forum
 * requires admin efforts (must be maintained and updated, backups, ...)
 * may not be as publicly visible as that of other providers (because of
 their advertisements ...)
 * may not be as innovative as special forum operators ('awarding for
 active participants', ...)

 In addition there are concerns valid for both:
 * Is it important to somehow import the existing mail archive ?

 So IMO this is the first decision - is it ok to rely on somebody else ?
 and then decide which one.

 I'd be ok to spend time on it once its clear which way to go.
 However - as for me - nothing will happen fast as beside of my daily
 work I already have a side project so this is kind of
 side-project-side-project.

 Now for getsatisfaction - I don't know anything about it except that
 what can be found on their site.
 They don't seem to offer free accounts for open source. I've also seen
 no indication you can get mail alerts for new contributions.

 So how do we approach this ?

 bye
 Andreas

  My personal POV is indeed that I'd like a forum for both the
 participation part (ie awarding status/points to active participants to
 surface them) and the categorization part but indeed I don't see myself
 going to the forum so it has to come to me. I think this is easy to achieve
 since on forums like getsatisfaction you can subscribe to the whole forum
 and thus receive all posts. What would be even better is if I could post or
 reply by replying to the mail.
 
  Now back to getsatisfaction I think before we could use it we'd need to
 check:
  * are there any limitations for free open source forums? What's their
 position on open source?
  * how can we get all the posts in a neutral and standard format should we
 want to move to another tool later on?
 
  Thanks
  -Vincent
 
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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-17 Thread Vincent Massol

On Mar 17, 2011, at 8:23 PM, Thibaut Camberlin wrote:

 Hi,
 
 IMO it makes a lot of sense to use a forum solution for users (when it does
 not for devs). When I was working with WordPress software, I was reading a
 lot forum threads (they are using their other product, bbPress). I wouldn't
 have thought about subscribing to a mailing list, I didn't even know they
 existed. I was not Open Source minded, so are a lot of people using XWiki
 and willing to contribute good feedback. A forum is so much easier to read
 (topics, dates, tags, rates) and much less geek.

Thibaut we *already have* a forum...

Your argument isn't quite valid since you also need to subscribe in a forum to 
post!

If you just want to browse the list: http://xwiki.markmail.org

Thanks
-Vincent

 I am +1 for a forum solution for users.
 
 --
 Thibaut
 
 On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Andreas Hahn ah...@gmx.net wrote:
 
 Am 14.03.2011 09:16, schrieb Vincent Massol:
 On Mar 13, 2011, at 10:00 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:
 
 Am 10.03.2011 17:39, schrieb Paul Libbrecht:
 Please contradict me!
 Paul,
 actually - how could I do this ?
 I'm not an expert in forum software so I'd to go for the naive approach
 - comparing features e.t.c.
 
 I was hoping for some insight that it is beneficial for the whole
 project to encourage users first to browse and then to participate -
 even if it means  for you and the others around here to give up beloved
 habits.
 
 Anyway - I'm not going to push you guys back to the future of Web 2.0.
 
 Given the lame participation when compared to the survey 4 years ago it
 seems to me that quite some people have already left the boat and it may
 not matter anymore.
 I'm not sure how to read your last 2 paragraphs.
 
 Just note that fro my POV there's no you and me here. There's only a
 global community and you're part of it. That said at some point some people
 are going to need to work to make it happen, this is where the distinction
 will happen. How far are you willing to help? Maybe a first step would be
 that you help find either a forum software that fits the bill or a hosted
 service that would work for us.
 
 From the people who answered so far my feeling is that:
 * people seem to agree in general that at least for users a forum would
 be nicer
 * since xwiki committers provide a substantial amount of answers to the
 user list as of today it would be nice that they can continue to have the
 information coming to me
 
 For my own FOSS project I'm hoping to start soon - I'll be going with
 http://stackoverflow.com. Providing support means checking the site for
 tagged questions a couple of times a day. It's just one mouse click. For
 me it makes no real difference in getting mails or checking a forum as
 long as you have a one-click list of open topics.
 
 Gathering all the information about all possible options and criteria
 can get very time consuming so I think we should try to rule out
 something first.
 
 Forums that are operated by other providers (getsatisfaction,
 stackoverflow, ...) might
 * be discontinued without warning (see jive)
 * change their policy later (no more free forums)
 * not expose user mail addresses and forum content (or might change that
 policy) so you're locked in.
 * not be as flexible as own forums if you want to change something (add
 category, ...)
 
 OTOH operating an own forum
 * requires admin efforts (must be maintained and updated, backups, ...)
 * may not be as publicly visible as that of other providers (because of
 their advertisements ...)
 * may not be as innovative as special forum operators ('awarding for
 active participants', ...)
 
 In addition there are concerns valid for both:
 * Is it important to somehow import the existing mail archive ?
 
 So IMO this is the first decision - is it ok to rely on somebody else ?
 and then decide which one.
 
 I'd be ok to spend time on it once its clear which way to go.
 However - as for me - nothing will happen fast as beside of my daily
 work I already have a side project so this is kind of
 side-project-side-project.
 
 Now for getsatisfaction - I don't know anything about it except that
 what can be found on their site.
 They don't seem to offer free accounts for open source. I've also seen
 no indication you can get mail alerts for new contributions.
 
 So how do we approach this ?
 
 bye
 Andreas
 
 My personal POV is indeed that I'd like a forum for both the
 participation part (ie awarding status/points to active participants to
 surface them) and the categorization part but indeed I don't see myself
 going to the forum so it has to come to me. I think this is easy to achieve
 since on forums like getsatisfaction you can subscribe to the whole forum
 and thus receive all posts. What would be even better is if I could post or
 reply by replying to the mail.
 
 Now back to getsatisfaction I think before we could use it we'd need to
 check:
 * are there any limitations for free open source forums? What's their
 position 

Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-14 Thread Vincent Massol

On Mar 13, 2011, at 10:00 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:

 Am 10.03.2011 17:39, schrieb Paul Libbrecht:
 Please contradict me!
 Paul,
 actually - how could I do this ?
 I'm not an expert in forum software so I'd to go for the naive approach 
 - comparing features e.t.c.
 
 I was hoping for some insight that it is beneficial for the whole 
 project to encourage users first to browse and then to participate - 
 even if it means  for you and the others around here to give up beloved 
 habits.
 
 Anyway - I'm not going to push you guys back to the future of Web 2.0.
 
 Given the lame participation when compared to the survey 4 years ago it 
 seems to me that quite some people have already left the boat and it may 
 not matter anymore.

I'm not sure how to read your last 2 paragraphs.

Just note that fro my POV there's no you and me here. There's only a global 
community and you're part of it. That said at some point some people are going 
to need to work to make it happen, this is where the distinction will happen. 
How far are you willing to help? Maybe a first step would be that you help find 
either a forum software that fits the bill or a hosted service that would work 
for us.

From the people who answered so far my feeling is that:
* people seem to agree in general that at least for users a forum would be nicer
* since xwiki committers provide a substantial amount of answers to the user 
list as of today it would be nice that they can continue to have the 
information coming to me

My personal POV is indeed that I'd like a forum for both the participation part 
(ie awarding status/points to active participants to surface them) and the 
categorization part but indeed I don't see myself going to the forum so it has 
to come to me. I think this is easy to achieve since on forums like 
getsatisfaction you can subscribe to the whole forum and thus receive all 
posts. What would be even better is if I could post or reply by replying to the 
mail.

Now back to getsatisfaction I think before we could use it we'd need to check:
* are there any limitations for free open source forums? What's their position 
on open source?
* how can we get all the posts in a neutral and standard format should we want 
to move to another tool later on?

Thanks
-Vincent

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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-14 Thread Andreas Hahn
Am 14.03.2011 09:16, schrieb Vincent Massol:
 On Mar 13, 2011, at 10:00 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:

 Am 10.03.2011 17:39, schrieb Paul Libbrecht:
 Please contradict me!
 Paul,
 actually - how could I do this ?
 I'm not an expert in forum software so I'd to go for the naive approach
 - comparing features e.t.c.

 I was hoping for some insight that it is beneficial for the whole
 project to encourage users first to browse and then to participate -
 even if it means  for you and the others around here to give up beloved
 habits.

 Anyway - I'm not going to push you guys back to the future of Web 2.0.

 Given the lame participation when compared to the survey 4 years ago it
 seems to me that quite some people have already left the boat and it may
 not matter anymore.
 I'm not sure how to read your last 2 paragraphs.

 Just note that fro my POV there's no you and me here. There's only a 
 global community and you're part of it. That said at some point some people 
 are going to need to work to make it happen, this is where the distinction 
 will happen. How far are you willing to help? Maybe a first step would be 
 that you help find either a forum software that fits the bill or a hosted 
 service that would work for us.

  From the people who answered so far my feeling is that:
 * people seem to agree in general that at least for users a forum would be 
 nicer
 * since xwiki committers provide a substantial amount of answers to the user 
 list as of today it would be nice that they can continue to have the 
 information coming to me

For my own FOSS project I'm hoping to start soon - I'll be going with 
http://stackoverflow.com. Providing support means checking the site for 
tagged questions a couple of times a day. It's just one mouse click. For 
me it makes no real difference in getting mails or checking a forum as 
long as you have a one-click list of open topics.

Gathering all the information about all possible options and criteria 
can get very time consuming so I think we should try to rule out 
something first.

Forums that are operated by other providers (getsatisfaction, 
stackoverflow, ...) might
* be discontinued without warning (see jive)
* change their policy later (no more free forums)
* not expose user mail addresses and forum content (or might change that 
policy) so you're locked in.
* not be as flexible as own forums if you want to change something (add 
category, ...)

OTOH operating an own forum
* requires admin efforts (must be maintained and updated, backups, ...)
* may not be as publicly visible as that of other providers (because of 
their advertisements ...)
* may not be as innovative as special forum operators ('awarding for 
active participants', ...)

In addition there are concerns valid for both:
* Is it important to somehow import the existing mail archive ?

So IMO this is the first decision - is it ok to rely on somebody else ?
and then decide which one.

I'd be ok to spend time on it once its clear which way to go.
However - as for me - nothing will happen fast as beside of my daily 
work I already have a side project so this is kind of 
side-project-side-project.

Now for getsatisfaction - I don't know anything about it except that 
what can be found on their site.
They don't seem to offer free accounts for open source. I've also seen 
no indication you can get mail alerts for new contributions.

So how do we approach this ?

bye
Andreas

 My personal POV is indeed that I'd like a forum for both the participation 
 part (ie awarding status/points to active participants to surface them) and 
 the categorization part but indeed I don't see myself going to the forum so 
 it has to come to me. I think this is easy to achieve since on forums like 
 getsatisfaction you can subscribe to the whole forum and thus receive all 
 posts. What would be even better is if I could post or reply by replying to 
 the mail.

 Now back to getsatisfaction I think before we could use it we'd need to check:
 * are there any limitations for free open source forums? What's their 
 position on open source?
 * how can we get all the posts in a neutral and standard format should we 
 want to move to another tool later on?

 Thanks
 -Vincent

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 users@xwiki.org
 http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users


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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-13 Thread Andreas Hahn
Am 10.03.2011 17:39, schrieb Paul Libbrecht:
 Please contradict me!
Paul,
actually - how could I do this ?
I'm not an expert in forum software so I'd to go for the naive approach 
- comparing features e.t.c.

I was hoping for some insight that it is beneficial for the whole 
project to encourage users first to browse and then to participate - 
even if it means  for you and the others around here to give up beloved 
habits.

Anyway - I'm not going to push you guys back to the future of Web 2.0.

Given the lame participation when compared to the survey 4 years ago it 
seems to me that quite some people have already left the boat and it may 
not matter anymore.

Andreas


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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-10 Thread Paul Libbrecht
Andreas,

I am aware that web-forums may scale better in some ways.

All the complaints I and others have formulated about moving to web-forum 
relate to the ease of use of email-based traffic:

- receive all the forum posts per email
- respond to them by email

If it is possible to get at least these functions I think no-one will object of 
having the main storage be something different than a mailing-list and, 
indeed, it would allow us to use extra features of a web-forum to better manage 
(e.g. indicate interest or disinterest to a thread or a filter).

I have repeatedly attempted to set-up web-forums to this effect and I never 
managed to get this fully working. The refinement of the handling the mails and 
the errors of such a tool as mailman will be hard to beat. 

Please contradict me!
Please review the arguments and see if they can be answered.

paul



Le 10 mars 2011 à 07:24, Andreas Hahn a écrit :

 Hi everyone,
 
 as for your morning entertainment I'll tell a little shortstory.
 
 Get yourself a coffee - relax - and a few mins to read and think about it.
 
 
 Back in 2004  2 Java Developers that were upset about EJBs published a 
 book with their thoughts and recommendations about how J2EE software 
 developement should be done in their minds. The 2 guys were Rod Johnson 
 and Juergen Hoeller, the book was J2EE Development without EJB, and []

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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-10 Thread Sergiu Dumitriu
On 03/10/2011 05:39 PM, Paul Libbrecht wrote:
 Andreas,

 I am aware that web-forums may scale better in some ways.

 All the complaints I and others have formulated about moving to web-forum 
 relate to the ease of use of email-based traffic:

 - receive all the forum posts per email
 - respond to them by email

 If it is possible to get at least these functions I think no-one will object 
 of having the main storage be something different than a mailing-list and, 
 indeed, it would allow us to use extra features of a web-forum to better 
 manage (e.g. indicate interest or disinterest to a thread or a filter).

+1.

 I have repeatedly attempted to set-up web-forums to this effect and I never 
 managed to get this fully working. The refinement of the handling the mails 
 and the errors of such a tool as mailman will be hard to beat.

 Please contradict me!
 Please review the arguments and see if they can be answered.

 paul



 Le 10 mars 2011 à 07:24, Andreas Hahn a écrit :

 Hi everyone,

 as for your morning entertainment I'll tell a little shortstory.

 Get yourself a coffee - relax - and a few mins to read and think about it.


 Back in 2004  2 Java Developers that were upset about EJBs published a
 book with their thoughts and recommendations about how J2EE software
 developement should be done in their minds. The 2 guys were Rod Johnson
 and Juergen Hoeller, the book was J2EE Development without EJB, and []


-- 
Sergiu Dumitriu
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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-09 Thread Le Génie
This subject seems very controversial and I think it's an important point.
Thank you Andreas for submitting it.

+1 to remove the user list and move it to getsatisfaction.

Today, the XWiki community support using listserv is (imho) clearly a weak
point.
I don't know how Balsamiq or Jolicloud teams manage their work with
getsatisfaction but the result is very effective.

Maxime


2011/3/8 Vincent Massol vinc...@massol.net


 On Mar 8, 2011, at 3:04 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:

  On 03/08/2011 07:45 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
  Hi Andreas,
 
  On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:13 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:
 
  Hi everyone,
 
  I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in
  favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.
 
  The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a
 broader
  audience.
 
  1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the
  contributions without subscription.
 
  You don't need any subscription to read mailing lists.
  See http://xwiki.markmail.org/
 
  2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.
 
  Same here:
  http://xwiki.markmail.org/
 
  3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to
  subscribe to a mailing list.
 
  How? Even with forums you need to subscribe.
 
  4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to
 subscribe
  5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get
  responses
 
  6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get
  repeatedly discussed
 
  7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail
  collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
  8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users
  taking an active role
  9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO:
 administrators
  10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many
 threads
  11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support
 requirements
  - some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
  12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.
 
  Here's my +1
 
  I have some good news for you: we already have a forum! :)
 
  See http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/MailingLists
  And more specifically:
  http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/Forum
 
  Now if this forum doesn't fit your needs could you explain what
 requirements you'd have for a forum and which solution you'd pick?
  I personally liked jive forums but it doesn't exist anymore (it's folded
 into a full collaboration suite now).
 
  Thanks
  -Vincent
 
  This was thoroughly discussed four years ago, and the conclusion was
  against installing a specific forum, and stick with Nabble as a
  forum-like view of the mailing list activity:
  http://markmail.org/thread/gbdnyb7jbh4ha5ja

 Right I had forgotten about this discussion :)

 I do remember another one though (earlier than the one you pointed) where I
 was the one wanting a forum as a way to get more participation.

 What I'd really like to have that we don't currently have is a way to more
 visibly see who's participating more and thus encourage participation. A lot
 of forum do this by giving points to people who answer questions, then they
 get a title and a badge based on these points. Then you can list the top
 contributors.

 That said, thanks to markmail, I think our mailing lists have become a lot
 more browsable than before and we even get statistics:
 http://xwiki.markmail.org/search/?q=

 At some point in the past I looked at jive because it has this point system
 and it had the feature to be integrated on top of a mailing list. But since
 it disappeared I haven't found any other good option that would allow us to
 keep the list too.

 Now we have a real open question as to whether we want to keep our list AND
 create a getstatisfaction project for XWiki too (getsatisfaction or another
 similar tool). So far we've resisted doing this because it means scattering
 our support and thus reducing the support quality level (we cannot monitor
 several places easily). There are some guys who post and ask questions about
 xwiki on developez.com for example (see http://tinyurl.com/4ftdyly) but
 since we don't answer there I believe people either think xwiki is not well
 supported or they find their way to the official support location.

 One one hand I'd love to use a tool such as getsatisfaction, OTOH I don't
 know how we can manage properly both our lists + getsatisfaction.

 One solution would be to remove the user list and only keep the devs list
 and move users to getsatisfaction but I'm not sure how good or bad that
 would be.

 Anyone having any thoughts on this?

 Thanks
 -Vincent

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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-09 Thread jstoldt
Hmmm, I think removing the user mailing list is not a necessity when moving
to a bulleting board (like) user support. Keeping both has the benefit of
allowing both ways for the user but comes with the disadvantage of
distributed information (board and mailing list) and possibly more work for
the devs/supporting users because they would have to check both. So this
should probably be discussed.

Johannes

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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-09 Thread Joris Dirks
To me, the ideal solution would be enhanced forum-functionality inside
XWiki. Not only for the this mailinglist (getting all conversation in
one place, linking discussions to the pages/features it concerns) but
for XWiki as a platform too.

I currently have no time to elaborate in a functional proposal, but
roughly: commenting works fine as-is online, but (mail) notification
of replies is lacking (chosing 'watch this page' is unsatisfactory).
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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-09 Thread Andreas Hahn
Hi everyone,

as for your morning entertainment I'll tell a little shortstory.

Get yourself a coffee - relax - and a few mins to read and think about it.


Back in 2004  2 Java Developers that were upset about EJBs published a 
book with their thoughts and recommendations about how J2EE software 
developement should be done in their minds. The 2 guys were Rod Johnson 
and Juergen Hoeller, the book was J2EE Development without EJB, and 
they created the spring framework. Right from the beginning they were 
sharing their thoughts with a community that quickly became larger.
I think every Java Developer knows the rest of the story - spring is the 
leading free open source framework used in enterprise java dev and it is 
today a subdivision of VMWare.

Left aside I have liked it more in its earlier days when it was not so 
crowded -
checking the numbers from their forums there are roughly 80.000 members, 
the forum which is run by vBulletin flags 5.500 as active. 
http://forum.springsource.org

The interesting story about that is that there was an impressive flow of 
knowledge from the masterminds to the people that joined in in a way a 
pyramid of knowledge was building up. The senior members trained the 
newbies and the newbies trained the next generation and so on. Some 
members had their own ideas and started subprojects - I remember about 
security - workflow -webservices and toolSuite. Once these subprojects 
got a certain size they became an own module in the spring ecosystem 
with an own forum (and their initiators became employees of springsource 
and later VMWare).

Why am I telling this ?

This apporach feels much more community to me as the XWiki 
community. The Xwiki community seems to be of 2 parts: On one side a 
small group of people developing the code and giving answers. On the 
other side questioners that soon drop out once their problem is solved. 
I wouldn't regard those being part of acommunity - I'd say they are 
requesters - users just having a service request.

It may have to do with the media we are using - mailing lists - which is 
not encouraging to keep a thread active (or easily visible) over a 
longer lifecycle. In the years I've been working on spring based 
projects I have done very rare contributions (requests and answers) to 
the forum - most of the time a solution to my problem could already be 
found in the existing contributions. What irony that Sergiu was the only 
one to remember/find out that this topic had been deeply discussed in 2007 ?

Of course you can't compare a framework like spring to a solution like 
Xwiki and it may be due to the inspiration and charisma of Rod that so 
many people followed his voice and helped to build a community. Although 
he was not as democratic as the XWiki founders - a lot of things weren't 
discussed with the community. In the end it has been to everybodys 
benefit I guess.

Coming back to my topic i cannot imagine how they could have done it 
just with a mailing list.

One final word on the concern that running 2 different systems (a 
mailing list for devs and a forum for users) might be too much of a 
burdon for the poeple maintaining it: As for the example of spring there 
weren't these 2 systems - it was all transparent on the forums. And I'm 
still very much for hoping this pyramid to build up - at least for the 
users stuff - that would be a relief for the devs !

Please think about it and reconsider your votes

still here is my +1 for the forum (which one to be decided in another 
thread)
with a seperate developers list or not


Andreas

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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-08 Thread Paul Libbrecht
Here are my counter arguments:
-1) you have to go to the web-page to read the forum posts
-2) replying needs a web-connection and a functioning web-browser, this means 
that slowly written drafts have to be written somewhere else
-3) it is much easier and more flexible to re-adjust the layout of a mail being 
written than a forum post

Here is my -1.

paul


Le 7 mars 2011 à 23:13, Andreas Hahn a écrit :

 Hi everyone,
 
 I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in 
 favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.
 
 The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a broader 
 audience.
 
 1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the 
 contributions without subscription.
 2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.
 3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to 
 subscribe to a mailing list.
 4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to subscribe
 5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get 
 responses
 6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get 
 repeatedly discussed
 7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail 
 collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
 8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users 
 taking an active role
 9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO: administrators
 10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many threads
 11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support requirements 
 - some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
 12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.
 
 Here's my +1
 
 Andreas
 
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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-08 Thread Thomas Mortagne
On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 23:13, Andreas Hahn ah...@gmx.net wrote:
 Hi everyone,

 I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in
 favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.

 The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a broader
 audience.

 1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the
 contributions without subscription.
 2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.
 3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to
 subscribe to a mailing list.
 4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to subscribe
 5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get
 responses
 6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get
 repeatedly discussed
 7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail
 collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
 8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users
 taking an active role
 9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO: administrators
 10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many threads
 11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support requirements
 - some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
 12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.

 Here's my +1

-1

I will not repeat arguments Paul gave already and add mine:
- currently I have everything in one place: my mail box and I like it
the way it is way more than having to go in a forum website

If all you want is forum feeling
http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/Forum should be well
enough IMO.


 Andreas

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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-08 Thread Andreas Hahn
Hi Vincent,

Am 08.03.2011 07:45, schrieb Vincent Massol:
 Hi Andreas,

 On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:13 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:

 Hi everyone,

 I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in
 favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.

 The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a broader
 audience.

 1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the
 contributions without subscription.
 You don't need any subscription to read mailing lists.
 See http://xwiki.markmail.org/

 2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.
 Same here:
 http://xwiki.markmail.org/

 3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to
 subscribe to a mailing list.
 How? Even with forums you need to subscribe.

 4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to subscribe
 5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get
 responses
 6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get
 repeatedly discussed
 7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail
 collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
 8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users
 taking an active role
 9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO: administrators
 10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many threads
 11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support requirements
 - some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
 12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.

 Here's my +1
 I have some good news for you: we already have a forum! :)
Actually i wasn't aware that there is already an integration with the 
dev page.
I might not have written my proposal if I were. But shouldn't the forums 
be mentioned / linked in a more prominent place on the homepage ?

However as I wrote - the objective was  to promote the XWiki community 
discussions to a broader audience as part of a strategy to make XWiki 
aware to more users that don't already subscribe and that my not already 
be aware of XWiki.org. I have no numbers at hand - its just my feelings 
- that indexing of markmail and nabble to google compares badly to other 
forum software.
But so what - except for the ugly reading of large threads and the 
meaningless statistics of a threads view count because of the many 
different access methods -
there is not that much left over I guess.
 See http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/MailingLists
 And more specifically:
 http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/Forum

 Now if this forum doesn't fit your needs could you explain what requirements 
 you'd have for a forum and which solution you'd pick?
 I personally liked jive forums but it doesn't exist anymore (it's folded into 
 a full collaboration suite now).

I have a personal favorite - that is stackoverflow.com.
Its fun to read - encourages exploration - there are numerous 
indications for the relevance of a contribution.
I've been pointed to by google a couple of times and for many purposes 
it became my primary forum website.
Many people there that are seeking advice a la 'whats the best tool to ...'

However its a developers forum and from a project owner perspective 
I'd hesitate to recommend it as a support forum.
Its backed by VC and soon they will need to make money one way or the other.
OTOH the tags 'wiki' and 'collaborative' are somehow underrepresented ...

bye

Andreas

 Thanks
 -Vincent

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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-08 Thread Sergiu Dumitriu
On 03/08/2011 07:45 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
 Hi Andreas,

 On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:13 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:

 Hi everyone,

 I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in
 favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.

 The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a broader
 audience.

 1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the
 contributions without subscription.

 You don't need any subscription to read mailing lists.
 See http://xwiki.markmail.org/

 2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.

 Same here:
 http://xwiki.markmail.org/

 3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to
 subscribe to a mailing list.

 How? Even with forums you need to subscribe.

 4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to subscribe
 5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get
 responses

 6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get
 repeatedly discussed

 7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail
 collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
 8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users
 taking an active role
 9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO: administrators
 10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many threads
 11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support requirements
 - some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
 12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.

 Here's my +1

 I have some good news for you: we already have a forum! :)

 See http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/MailingLists
 And more specifically:
 http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/Forum

 Now if this forum doesn't fit your needs could you explain what requirements 
 you'd have for a forum and which solution you'd pick?
 I personally liked jive forums but it doesn't exist anymore (it's folded into 
 a full collaboration suite now).

 Thanks
 -Vincent

This was thoroughly discussed four years ago, and the conclusion was 
against installing a specific forum, and stick with Nabble as a 
forum-like view of the mailing list activity:
http://markmail.org/thread/gbdnyb7jbh4ha5ja

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http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-08 Thread Vincent Massol

On Mar 8, 2011, at 3:04 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:

 On 03/08/2011 07:45 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
 Hi Andreas,
 
 On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:13 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:
 
 Hi everyone,
 
 I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in
 favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.
 
 The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a broader
 audience.
 
 1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the
 contributions without subscription.
 
 You don't need any subscription to read mailing lists.
 See http://xwiki.markmail.org/
 
 2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.
 
 Same here:
 http://xwiki.markmail.org/
 
 3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to
 subscribe to a mailing list.
 
 How? Even with forums you need to subscribe.
 
 4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to subscribe
 5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get
 responses
 
 6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get
 repeatedly discussed
 
 7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail
 collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
 8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users
 taking an active role
 9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO: administrators
 10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many threads
 11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support requirements
 - some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
 12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.
 
 Here's my +1
 
 I have some good news for you: we already have a forum! :)
 
 See http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/MailingLists
 And more specifically:
 http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/Forum
 
 Now if this forum doesn't fit your needs could you explain what requirements 
 you'd have for a forum and which solution you'd pick?
 I personally liked jive forums but it doesn't exist anymore (it's folded 
 into a full collaboration suite now).
 
 Thanks
 -Vincent
 
 This was thoroughly discussed four years ago, and the conclusion was 
 against installing a specific forum, and stick with Nabble as a 
 forum-like view of the mailing list activity:
 http://markmail.org/thread/gbdnyb7jbh4ha5ja

Right I had forgotten about this discussion :)

I do remember another one though (earlier than the one you pointed) where I was 
the one wanting a forum as a way to get more participation.

What I'd really like to have that we don't currently have is a way to more 
visibly see who's participating more and thus encourage participation. A lot of 
forum do this by giving points to people who answer questions, then they get a 
title and a badge based on these points. Then you can list the top contributors.

That said, thanks to markmail, I think our mailing lists have become a lot more 
browsable than before and we even get statistics:
http://xwiki.markmail.org/search/?q=

At some point in the past I looked at jive because it has this point system and 
it had the feature to be integrated on top of a mailing list. But since it 
disappeared I haven't found any other good option that would allow us to keep 
the list too.

Now we have a real open question as to whether we want to keep our list AND 
create a getstatisfaction project for XWiki too (getsatisfaction or another 
similar tool). So far we've resisted doing this because it means scattering our 
support and thus reducing the support quality level (we cannot monitor several 
places easily). There are some guys who post and ask questions about xwiki on 
developez.com for example (see http://tinyurl.com/4ftdyly) but since we don't 
answer there I believe people either think xwiki is not well supported or they 
find their way to the official support location.

One one hand I'd love to use a tool such as getsatisfaction, OTOH I don't know 
how we can manage properly both our lists + getsatisfaction.

One solution would be to remove the user list and only keep the devs list and 
move users to getsatisfaction but I'm not sure how good or bad that would be.

Anyone having any thoughts on this?

Thanks
-Vincent

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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-08 Thread Sergiu Dumitriu
On 03/08/2011 03:30 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:

 On Mar 8, 2011, at 3:04 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:

 On 03/08/2011 07:45 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
 Hi Andreas,

 On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:13 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:

 Hi everyone,

 I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in
 favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.

 The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a broader
 audience.

 1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the
 contributions without subscription.

 You don't need any subscription to read mailing lists.
 See http://xwiki.markmail.org/

 2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.

 Same here:
 http://xwiki.markmail.org/

 3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to
 subscribe to a mailing list.

 How? Even with forums you need to subscribe.

 4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to subscribe
 5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get
 responses

 6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get
 repeatedly discussed

 7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail
 collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
 8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users
 taking an active role
 9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO: administrators
 10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many threads
 11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support requirements
 - some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
 12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.

 Here's my +1

 I have some good news for you: we already have a forum! :)

 See http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/MailingLists
 And more specifically:
 http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/Forum

 Now if this forum doesn't fit your needs could you explain what 
 requirements you'd have for a forum and which solution you'd pick?
 I personally liked jive forums but it doesn't exist anymore (it's folded 
 into a full collaboration suite now).

 Thanks
 -Vincent

 This was thoroughly discussed four years ago, and the conclusion was
 against installing a specific forum, and stick with Nabble as a
 forum-like view of the mailing list activity:
 http://markmail.org/thread/gbdnyb7jbh4ha5ja

 Right I had forgotten about this discussion :)

 I do remember another one though (earlier than the one you pointed) where I 
 was the one wanting a forum as a way to get more participation.

 What I'd really like to have that we don't currently have is a way to more 
 visibly see who's participating more and thus encourage participation. A lot 
 of forum do this by giving points to people who answer questions, then they 
 get a title and a badge based on these points. Then you can list the top 
 contributors.

 That said, thanks to markmail, I think our mailing lists have become a lot 
 more browsable than before and we even get statistics:
 http://xwiki.markmail.org/search/?q=

 At some point in the past I looked at jive because it has this point system 
 and it had the feature to be integrated on top of a mailing list. But since 
 it disappeared I haven't found any other good option that would allow us to 
 keep the list too.

 Now we have a real open question as to whether we want to keep our list AND 
 create a getstatisfaction project for XWiki too (getsatisfaction or another 
 similar tool). So far we've resisted doing this because it means scattering 
 our support and thus reducing the support quality level (we cannot monitor 
 several places easily). There are some guys who post and ask questions about 
 xwiki on developez.com for example (see http://tinyurl.com/4ftdyly) but since 
 we don't answer there I believe people either think xwiki is not well 
 supported or they find their way to the official support location.

 One one hand I'd love to use a tool such as getsatisfaction, OTOH I don't 
 know how we can manage properly both our lists + getsatisfaction.

 One solution would be to remove the user list and only keep the devs list and 
 move users to getsatisfaction but I'm not sure how good or bad that would be.

 Anyone having any thoughts on this?

The users list is indeed a bit too intrusive for users. When someone has 
a problem and wants to get help, they have to subscribe to the mailing 
list, post their question, then be spammed by other people's problems 
until they get an answer. A forum would be nicer for this kind of 
problem, you can watch only the topic you're interested in.

On the other hand it's difficult for devs, since a forum-only solution 
means having to watch the forum all day long. It's pull instead of push, 
and the pull solution works well for users that only care for their 
problem, but devs don't react unless they're pushed.

That's why a dual view of the messages is good, it lets users mind their 

Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-08 Thread Andreas Hahn
Am 08.03.2011 15:30, schrieb Vincent Massol:
 On Mar 8, 2011, at 3:04 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:

 On 03/08/2011 07:45 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
 Hi Andreas,

 On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:13 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:

 Hi everyone,

 I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in
 favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.

 The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a broader
 audience.

 1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the
 contributions without subscription.
 You don't need any subscription to read mailing lists.
 See http://xwiki.markmail.org/

 2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.
 Same here:
 http://xwiki.markmail.org/

 3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to
 subscribe to a mailing list.
 How? Even with forums you need to subscribe.

 4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to subscribe
 5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get
 responses
 6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get
 repeatedly discussed
 7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail
 collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
 8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users
 taking an active role
 9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO: administrators
 10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many threads
 11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support requirements
 - some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
 12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.

 Here's my +1
 I have some good news for you: we already have a forum! :)

 See http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/MailingLists
 And more specifically:
 http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/Forum

 Now if this forum doesn't fit your needs could you explain what 
 requirements you'd have for a forum and which solution you'd pick?
 I personally liked jive forums but it doesn't exist anymore (it's folded 
 into a full collaboration suite now).

 Thanks
 -Vincent
 This was thoroughly discussed four years ago, and the conclusion was
 against installing a specific forum, and stick with Nabble as a
 forum-like view of the mailing list activity:
 http://markmail.org/thread/gbdnyb7jbh4ha5ja
 Right I had forgotten about this discussion :)

 I do remember another one though (earlier than the one you pointed) where I 
 was the one wanting a forum as a way to get more participation.

 What I'd really like to have that we don't currently have is a way to more 
 visibly see who's participating more and thus encourage participation. A lot 
 of forum do this by giving points to people who answer questions, then they 
 get a title and a badge based on these points. Then you can list the top 
 contributors.

 That said, thanks to markmail, I think our mailing lists have become a lot 
 more browsable than before and we even get statistics:
 http://xwiki.markmail.org/search/?q=

 At some point in the past I looked at jive because it has this point system 
 and it had the feature to be integrated on top of a mailing list. But since 
 it disappeared I haven't found any other good option that would allow us to 
 keep the list too.

 Now we have a real open question as to whether we want to keep our list AND 
 create a getstatisfaction project for XWiki too (getsatisfaction or another 
 similar tool). So far we've resisted doing this because it means scattering 
 our support and thus reducing the support quality level (we cannot monitor 
 several places easily). There are some guys who post and ask questions about 
 xwiki on developez.com for example (see http://tinyurl.com/4ftdyly) but since 
 we don't answer there I believe people either think xwiki is not well 
 supported or they find their way to the official support location.

 One one hand I'd love to use a tool such as getsatisfaction, OTOH I don't 
 know how we can manage properly both our lists + getsatisfaction.

getsatisfaction looks promising however it's not obvious to me if it's 
good for the job and what's the relationship with Xwiki. However I 
hadn't the time to drill deeper ...
Maybe you can give a pointer or more background information ?

If I were to select a tool my criteria would be:
- installation base, references and development activity
- should be known for good indexing by google although this might be 
hard to prove and may not be that much a feature of the software
- a BIG plus (almost a requirement) would be a migration from the 
existing mailing list history (although no idea how to find that out in 
advance)
- a plus if familiar technology is used

If you are serious about further investigations I'd spend time on it - 
I'd like to hear a clear voice about that.

Once upon a time i found xwiki by wikimatrix.org and now I'd give 
forummatrix.org a try ...
... and of course if 

Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-08 Thread Arnaud bourree
my -1 contribution for same reasons as Paul Leibbrecht and Thomas Mortagne

Arnaud.
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[xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-07 Thread Andreas Hahn
Hi everyone,

I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in 
favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.

The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a broader 
audience.

1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the 
contributions without subscription.
2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.
3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to 
subscribe to a mailing list.
4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to subscribe
5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get 
responses
6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get 
repeatedly discussed
7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail 
collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users 
taking an active role
9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO: administrators
10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many threads
11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support requirements 
- some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.

Here's my +1

Andreas

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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-07 Thread Lockie
I use this URL: http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.com/XWiki-Users-f475772.html
which makes the mailing list appear like a forum. I prefer a forum layout so
you have my +1.

-

Lockie
--
View this message in context: 
http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.com/Drop-mailing-lists-in-favor-of-a-forum-software-tp6099297p6099714.html
Sent from the XWiki- Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [xwiki-users] Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

2011-03-07 Thread Vincent Massol
Hi Andreas,

On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:13 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:

 Hi everyone,
 
 I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in 
 favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.
 
 The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a broader 
 audience.
 
 1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the 
 contributions without subscription.

You don't need any subscription to read mailing lists.
See http://xwiki.markmail.org/

 2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.

Same here:
http://xwiki.markmail.org/

 3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to 
 subscribe to a mailing list.

How? Even with forums you need to subscribe.

 4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to subscribe
 5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get 
 responses

 6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get 
 repeatedly discussed

 7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail 
 collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
 8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users 
 taking an active role
 9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO: administrators
 10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many threads
 11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support requirements 
 - some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
 12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.
 
 Here's my +1

I have some good news for you: we already have a forum! :)

See http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/MailingLists
And more specifically:
http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/Forum

Now if this forum doesn't fit your needs could you explain what requirements 
you'd have for a forum and which solution you'd pick?
I personally liked jive forums but it doesn't exist anymore (it's folded into a 
full collaboration suite now).

Thanks
-Vincent

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