Re: DNF5 Command Regression

2026-02-13 Thread Stephen Morris
On 10 Feb 2026, at 21:24, Stephen Morris 
 wrote:


If we need to raise issues upstream for dnf where do we raise them?


In the Fedora bugtracker

The instructions I found on the net for ensuring all the media 
packages needed for vlc to play blu-rays may have been for dnf4, as 
it was also using a method for identifying the group that in dnf5, 
in my view, is broken. Groups have an ID and a Name, and in dnf4 
you could specify the group by name enclosed in double quotes, in 
dnf5 it says the value specified in double quotes doesn't exist 
even though a "group list" displays that name.


As I understand it you are expected to use the ID now and not the name.
Both the ID and the description are shown as you noticed.

For example

dnf group info editors

Barry

I've replied to some threads with silly questions, so if I can 
continue the trend, given that I have used the group install facility 
in previous versions of Fedora and dnf by using the Name and had that 
work as specified in articles on the net, how are we supposed to know 
that in F43 that functionality has to be done differently?


I guess there's no way to know, but from what I understand now, that 
method should never really have been used.  The issue is that the name 
is localized, so a command with the English name would not work on a 
French localized install (unless dnf would check all the localized 
names).  And I just checked that and dnf4 won't install the French 
name on my English system.


# dnf4 group info "Outils système"
Warning: Group Outils système does not exist.

But this works:
# LANG=fr_CA.UTF-8 dnf4 group info "Outils système"
Group: Outils système
 Description: Ce groupe est un ensemble de différents outils pour le 
système, tels qu'un client pour la connexion aux partages SMB et des 
outils permettant de surveiller le trafic réseau.


Yes, but if a user has their system locale set to french then I would 
expect the french language to work and the English language to fail as 
you have shown, which is the way systems work anyway.
What annoys me though (I know the net can be misleading), is where a web 
page provides instructions on what needs to done to do what it is 
suggesting, and those instructions a tailored to a whole host of 
different distributions, and for Fedora is specified to use a group 
install with the package name rather than ID, and that command doesn't 
work even though in the past I've done things that way. When it comes 
back and tells the name doesn't exist, my first thought before I change 
methods is "What do you mean it doesn't exist I'm looking at that name 
on the screen in front of me because you have just told me it does exist?".


regards,

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Re: DNF5 Command Regression

2026-02-12 Thread Patrick O'Callaghan
On Thu, 2026-02-12 at 11:36 +1030, Tim via users wrote:
> My pet peeve is when we have systems that are case-sensitive and
> someone decides to name things in annoying ways to type.  All our
> other
> system commands are all lower-case, and many of their options
> (excepting for things like -v versus -V because there's not enough
> letters for around for the many options), stick to that approach.

Amen to that.

poc
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Re: DNF5 Command Regression

2026-02-11 Thread Tim via users
On Thu, 2026-02-12 at 09:01 +1100, Stephen Morris wrote:
> I've replied to some threads with silly questions, so if I can
> continue the trend, given that I have used the group install
> facility in previous versions of Fedora and dnf by using the Name and
> had that work as specified in articles on the net, how are we
> supposed to know that in F43 that functionality has to be done
> differently?

Well, generally after one or two attempt at what you thought would work
but failing with unexpected results you try something else, or look
online for some answers.

It took me a few minutes consternation after my last install. 
Fortunately I have more than one PC and can use the other to look up
info.

My pet peeve is when we have systems that are case-sensitive and
someone decides to name things in annoying ways to type.  All our other
system commands are all lower-case, and many of their options
(excepting for things like -v versus -V because there's not enough
letters for around for the many options), stick to that approach.

-- 
 
uname -rsvp
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(yes, this is the output from uname for this PC when I posted)
 
Boilerplate:  All unexpected mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted.
I will only get to see the messages that are posted to the mailing list.
 

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Re: DNF5 Command Regression

2026-02-11 Thread Samuel Sieb

On 2/11/26 2:01 PM, Stephen Morris wrote:


On 10 Feb 2026, at 21:24, Stephen Morris  
wrote:


If we need to raise issues upstream for dnf where do we raise them?


In the Fedora bugtracker

The instructions I found on the net for ensuring all the media 
packages needed for vlc to play blu-rays may have been for dnf4, as 
it was also using a method for identifying the group that in dnf5, in 
my view, is broken. Groups have an ID and a Name, and in dnf4 you 
could specify the group by name enclosed in double quotes, in dnf5 it 
says the value specified in double quotes doesn't exist even though a 
"group list" displays that name.


As I understand it you are expected to use the ID now and not the name.
Both the ID and the description are shown as you noticed.

For example

dnf group info editors

Barry

I've replied to some threads with silly questions, so if I can continue 
the trend, given that I have used the group install facility in previous 
versions of Fedora and dnf by using the Name and had that work as 
specified in articles on the net, how are we supposed to know that in 
F43 that functionality has to be done differently?


I guess there's no way to know, but from what I understand now, that 
method should never really have been used.  The issue is that the name 
is localized, so a command with the English name would not work on a 
French localized install (unless dnf would check all the localized 
names).  And I just checked that and dnf4 won't install the French name 
on my English system.


# dnf4 group info "Outils système"
Warning: Group Outils système does not exist.

But this works:
# LANG=fr_CA.UTF-8 dnf4 group info "Outils système"
Group: Outils système
 Description: Ce groupe est un ensemble de différents outils pour le 
système, tels qu'un client pour la connexion aux partages SMB et des 
outils permettant de surveiller le trafic réseau.


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Re: DNF5 Command Regression

2026-02-11 Thread Stephen Morris


On 10 Feb 2026, at 21:24, Stephen Morris  
wrote:


If we need to raise issues upstream for dnf where do we raise them?


In the Fedora bugtracker

The instructions I found on the net for ensuring all the media 
packages needed for vlc to play blu-rays may have been for dnf4, as 
it was also using a method for identifying the group that in dnf5, in 
my view, is broken. Groups have an ID and a Name, and in dnf4 you 
could specify the group by name enclosed in double quotes, in dnf5 it 
says the value specified in double quotes doesn't exist even though a 
"group list" displays that name.


As I understand it you are expected to use the ID now and not the name.
Both the ID and the description are shown as you noticed.

For example

dnf group info editors

Barry

I've replied to some threads with silly questions, so if I can continue 
the trend, given that I have used the group install facility in previous 
versions of Fedora and dnf by using the Name and had that work as 
specified in articles on the net, how are we supposed to know that in 
F43 that functionality has to be done differently?


regards,

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FN:Stephen Morris
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Re: DNF5 Command Regression

2026-02-11 Thread Barry Scott


> On 10 Feb 2026, at 21:24, Stephen Morris  wrote:
> 
> If we need to raise issues upstream for dnf where do we raise them?

In the Fedora bugtracker

> The instructions I found on the net for ensuring all the media packages 
> needed for vlc to play blu-rays may have been for dnf4, as it was also using 
> a method for identifying the group that in dnf5, in my view, is broken. 
> Groups have an ID and a Name, and in dnf4 you could specify the group by name 
> enclosed in double quotes, in dnf5 it says the value specified in double 
> quotes doesn't exist even though a "group list" displays that name.

As I understand it you are expected to use the ID now and not the name.
Both the ID and the description are shown as you noticed.

For example

dnf group info editors

Barry

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Re: DNF5 Command Regression

2026-02-10 Thread Samuel Sieb

On 2/10/26 1:24 PM, Stephen Morris wrote:

If we need to raise issues upstream for dnf where do we raise them?
The instructions I found on the net for ensuring all the media packages 
needed for vlc to play blu-rays may have been for dnf4, as it was also 
using a method for identifying the group that in dnf5, in my view, is 
broken. Groups have an ID and a Name, and in dnf4 you could specify the 
group by name enclosed in double quotes, in dnf5 it says the value 
specified in double quotes doesn't exist even though a "group list" 
displays that name.


It's interesting.  'dnf group info "System Tools"' works, but not 'dnf 
group install "System Tools"'.


There's an issue filed, but the maintainers don't like the idea for 
valid reasons.  Just use the short name.

https://github.com/rpm-software-management/dnf5/issues/1599

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Re: DNF5 Command Regression

2026-02-10 Thread Stephen Morris
On Mon, 9 Feb 2026 at 20:44, Stephen Morris 
 wrote:


Hi,
     I've noticed with DNF5 the commands "grouplist" and
"groupinstall"
have been removed. I've seen package install instructions on the
net to
use those commands as being specific instructions for Fedora.
Before DNF
became DNF5 those two commands were available, I had used them
several
times. It seems that DNF5 has replaced those commands with "group
list"
and "group install". Is it possible to create aliases of those two
commands within DNF5 or do I have to raise a formal defect for the
regression?


Questions like this are probably best researched at the upstream repo 
(although I believe we do have DNF contributors here too).


These issues indicate that the removal of 'group list' and 'group 
install' were quite explicit: 
https://github.com/rpm-software-management/dnf5/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20grouplist


Just a silly question on raising defects, if one is raised what is
the likelihood of it being fixed


Again, probably best answered upstream. My reading of those previous 
two issues is that you will have to live with the changes or implement 
something yourself but YMMV.



If we need to raise issues upstream for dnf where do we raise them?
The instructions I found on the net for ensuring all the media packages 
needed for vlc to play blu-rays may have been for dnf4, as it was also 
using a method for identifying the group that in dnf5, in my view, is 
broken. Groups have an ID and a Name, and in dnf4 you could specify the 
group by name enclosed in double quotes, in dnf5 it says the value 
specified in double quotes doesn't exist even though a "group list" 
displays that name.


regards,

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Re: DNF5 Command Regression

2026-02-10 Thread Patrick O'Callaghan
On Mon, 2026-02-09 at 17:01 -0500, Todd Zullinger wrote:
> Stephen Morris wrote:
> >     I've noticed with DNF5 the commands "grouplist" and
> > "groupinstall" have
> > been removed. I've seen package install instructions on the net to
> > use those
> > commands as being specific instructions for Fedora. Before DNF
> > became DNF5
> > those two commands were available, I had used them several times.
> > It seems
> > that DNF5 has replaced those commands with "group list" and "group
> > install".
> > Is it possible to create aliases of those two commands within DNF5
> > or do I
> > have to raise a formal defect for the regression?
> 
> The grouplist subcommand was a deprecated alias in dnf-4.
> At some point, it's not unreasonable to drop them rather
> than carry dead weight around forever.
> 
> You can use an alias if you really want, but that seems like
> more work than it's worth just to restore a long-deprecated
> name in most cases.
> 
> Refer to dnf-aliases(7) for details.

I'm sure I'm not alone in never having heard of this. Apparently a
bunch of standard commands are already aliases. See:

/usr/share/dnf5/aliases.d/*

poc
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Re: DNF5 Command Regression

2026-02-09 Thread Tim via users
On Tue, 2026-02-10 at 07:43 +1100, Stephen Morris wrote:
>  I've noticed with DNF5 the commands "grouplist" and "groupinstall" 
> have been removed. I've seen package install instructions on the net to 
> use those commands as being specific instructions for Fedora. Before DNF 
> became DNF5 those two commands were available, I had used them several 
> times. It seems that DNF5 has replaced those commands with "group list" 
> and "group install". Is it possible to create aliases of those two 
> commands within DNF5 or do I have to raise a formal defect for the 
> regression?
>  Just a silly question on raising defects, if one is raised what is 
> the likelihood of it being fixed, does it have to go through a voting 
> process like is required with the software I develop in with work?

Defects are one thing, they need fixing.  But Requests For Enhancements
are entirely at the whim of the programmers to handle and reject.

Things evolve here (and with other projects), and that can be added or
changed features, and dropping of things.  Over time, too many features
can get added, and programmers find it too hard to maintain.  Then
someone decides to start from scratch.  And the cycle repeats.

At least with command line tools, you can often create your own tools
based on them, or wrapped around them, to add your own personally
needed features.  But often you just have to go with the flow.

Fedora is a fast moving target, and some of us don't update to each new
release because it's too much change, too often.  And that is another
approach.

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Re: DNF5 Command Regression

2026-02-09 Thread Todd Zullinger
Stephen Morris wrote:
>     I've noticed with DNF5 the commands "grouplist" and "groupinstall" have
> been removed. I've seen package install instructions on the net to use those
> commands as being specific instructions for Fedora. Before DNF became DNF5
> those two commands were available, I had used them several times. It seems
> that DNF5 has replaced those commands with "group list" and "group install".
> Is it possible to create aliases of those two commands within DNF5 or do I
> have to raise a formal defect for the regression?

The grouplist subcommand was a deprecated alias in dnf-4.
At some point, it's not unreasonable to drop them rather
than carry dead weight around forever.

You can use an alias if you really want, but that seems like
more work than it's worth just to restore a long-deprecated
name in most cases.

Refer to dnf-aliases(7) for details.

-- 
Todd


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Re: DNF5 Command Regression

2026-02-09 Thread Will McDonald
On Mon, 9 Feb 2026 at 20:44, Stephen Morris 
wrote:

> Hi,
>  I've noticed with DNF5 the commands "grouplist" and "groupinstall"
> have been removed. I've seen package install instructions on the net to
> use those commands as being specific instructions for Fedora. Before DNF
> became DNF5 those two commands were available, I had used them several
> times. It seems that DNF5 has replaced those commands with "group list"
> and "group install". Is it possible to create aliases of those two
> commands within DNF5 or do I have to raise a formal defect for the
> regression?
>

Questions like this are probably best researched at the upstream repo
(although I believe we do have DNF contributors here too).

These issues indicate that the removal of 'group list' and 'group install'
were quite explicit:
https://github.com/rpm-software-management/dnf5/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20grouplist

Just a silly question on raising defects, if one is raised what is
> the likelihood of it being fixed


Again, probably best answered upstream. My reading of those previous two
issues is that you will have to live with the changes or implement
something yourself but YMMV.
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