Re: All essay text turned to hashtags

2014-01-08 Thread Rory O'Farrell
On Wed, 8 Jan 2014 09:11:38 -0500
Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote:

 On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 2:32 PM, Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie wrote:
  I've added your suggestion Roband Steve Ahlers to a draft document. I'll 
  wait in case of more input and then we can consider a short questionaire 
  and revise the wording.
 
 
 
 One further idea on this:   I can turn this into the form of a survey
 on http://survey.openoffice.org, using LimeSurvey.  If we do that then
 we can point users to that URL (after trying to help them, of course)
 to collect this level of additional detail.  If we do this then the
 information is collected all in one place.
 
 -Rob

That's a very good idea, Rob. It simplifies the workload for the active 
developers/advicates of OpenOffice and builds a database.

-- 
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Re: All essay text turned to hashtags--commentary

2014-01-05 Thread Rory O'Farrell
On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 12:47:59 +0100
Andrea Pescetti pesce...@apache.org wrote:

 Hagar Delest wrote:
  losing the file saved last time is just unacceptable, it's a major data
  loss (P1 in the bug tracker). This problem should be investigated as
  seriously as possible.
  No bashing needed, just look at the facts.
 
 The problem here is all with reproducing the bug. OpenOffice has so many 
 users, on so many systems, that even a problem that occurs, say, once in 
 ten millions save operations will get reported.
 
 It's a fact that there exist some users who report losing a document. 
 But it's not even clear if the culprit in those cases is OpenOffice, or 
 the operating system, or a RAM problem, or a disk failure... Like you, 
 I've been a regular OpenOffice user for many years and I never had a 
 similar problem.
 
 A random note if this can help: to study this problem, once I tried to 
 deliberately fill the hard disk until I had a few MBytes free. Then I 
 opened a heavy presentation file, with many images, and edited it 
 normally, adding and removing content. An automatic backup failed (due 
 to the full disk) and I think an error message was displayed (I/O 
 error). I then tried a save operation, which failed with the same error. 
 But then I was stuck: the file I was editing was corrupted (the images 
 did not display) and the last saved version on disk was corrupted too 
 (of course this was a test so I had made a backup before testing). Maybe 
 this deserves a better investigation.
 
 It could be that some or all of these bug reports are due to a full disk 
 (I do know some people who work with 100 MBytes free on disk, so it's 
 not even a 1 in millions scenario). The good thing is that this 
 scenario can be reproduced.
 
 Regards,
Andrea.
 


I think there are two problems here, which both Hagar and I are aware of from 
the Forum. One is the Hashtag problem, which I agree is not readily 
reproducible and in many cases may be caused by over hasty close down of OO or 
operating system, the other associated problem is the erasure of the saved copy 
which seems to occur often alongside the hashtag problem; no matter what causes 
the hashtag problem, I'm sure we all agree that a saved copy of the file should 
not be spontaneously erased.
 
The question should be asked When does OpenOffice erase the previous copy of 
the file?. Surely this should only be after the Save process reaches a 
conclusion. I can recollect from my CP/M days that one had to adopt a certain 
sequence in saving a file for best security. One saved the file to File.new 
(say), then renamed File.org to File.bak then renamed File.new to File.org. Is 
this or a similar protocol being followed in OO? Perhaps some temporary relief 
can be obtained by changing the options in OpenOffice to _always_ generate a 
backup. 

If the user turns such an option off, then on his own head be the 
responsibility for file loss!

I should say that I have not experienced the hashtag problem in 6 years of 
heavy use of OO Writer on Windows 2000/XP or linux systems.

 

-- 
Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie

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Re: All essay text turned to hashtags--commentary

2014-01-05 Thread Hagar Delest

Le 05/01/2014 12:47, Andrea Pescetti a écrit :

A random note if this can help: to study this problem, once I tried to 
deliberately fill the hard disk until I had a few MBytes free. Then I opened a 
heavy presentation file, with many images, and edited it normally, adding and 
removing content. An automatic backup failed (due to the full disk) and I think 
an error message was displayed (I/O error). I then tried a save operation, 
which failed with the same error. But then I was stuck: the file I was editing 
was corrupted (the images did not display) and the last saved version on disk 
was corrupted too (of course this was a test so I had made a backup before 
testing). Maybe this deserves a better investigation.


In this case, at least you've some text remaining and the file is not empty.



It could be that some or all of these bug reports are due to a full disk (I do know some 
people who work with 100 MBytes free on disk, so it's not even a 1 in 
millions scenario). The good thing is that this scenario can be reproduced.


The power shortage is clearly a root cause.
Perhaps we need an old disk to test what happens when we pull the plug during a 
save operation.

Hagar

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Re: All essay text turned to hashtags

2014-01-05 Thread Rob Weir
On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 3:53 PM, Hagar Delest hagar.del...@laposte.net wrote:
 Sadly, quite nothing to do, see:
 https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6t=17677 where you'll
 see that I've recorded more than 150 occurrences of this problem.


And there were 368 reported UFO sightings in December:
http://www.nuforc.org/webreports/ndxe201312.html

But I'm not rushing to learn Klingon...

If you search Google for phrases like Word document lost when saving
you'll see 100's of reports of this as well.

 I've raised this issue on the dev mailing list:
 http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@openoffice.apache.org/msg15177.html and
 interest has been slightly raised (new comments in the bug report) but this
 is a difficult problem that can't be reproduced, hence very difficult to
 spot. Nevertheless, even in case of bug, the save process could be improved
 IMHO.
 Any power shortage?

 Check the temporary folder of the system (see in OOo
 ToolsOptionsOOoPaths). If there are folders like sgmlf.tmp with a file
 having the same name inside, make a copy of that file, rename it to .odt and
 cross your fingers. If you have not rebooted, you might have those files
 still there.


It would be great to ask for information like this whenever someone
reports this kind of problem.  150 reports without this detail are
useless.  But even 10 reports with this detail might indicate a
pattern.

1) What AOO version is in use?

2) What OS version?

3) What file type (extension) was being saved?

4) Where was the file being saved?  USB?  Network drive?

5) Is autosaved enabled?

6) When you returned to your computer was it in the same state?  For
example, had you lost power?  Did the OS force a reboot?  Did your
laptop hibernate?


Just anecdotally, and without deeper analysis, I see a number of
reports on OpenOffice and with Microsoft Office, where a USB memory
stick is being used.   Savvy users know how to properly remove a
memory stick.  But not all users do.  This can cause problems.

Another case to watch out for is old Wordperfect files.   A user saves
a WPD file, upgrades OOo 3.3.0 to AOO 4.0.1 and now their file won't
open.  But this is due to the loss of WPD support, not due to damage
to the file, though the symptoms look the same at first.

Another thing to look for is a forced reboot, the kind that recent
versions of Windows do when installing a critical security patch.
Some antivirus software does this as well.  If you have a document
loaded in OpenOffice with unsaved changed, and have autosave enabled,
and leave your machine on for a week, with OpenOffice running, and a
system restart is forced, what will happen?  Is there a correlation to
problems in that scenario?

Regards,

-Rob



 As a courtesy I have sent a copy of this reply to you as well as to the
 mailing list. Do Not reply to me personally but just to the list at
 users@openoffice.apache.org - replies to my personal email address will be
 ignored.

 Since you are not subscribed to this list you may not see all the replies to
 your query.
 To subscribe Apache OpenOffice mailing lists go to
 http://openoffice.apache.org/mailing-lists.html
 NB: this is more a message for the users mailing list than for the devs.

 For user support you can also use The OpenOffice.org Community Forum
 https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/

 Regards,
 Hagar

 Le 04/01/2014 14:04, natalie guttridge a écrit :


 Please help
 My daughter has written a 2000 word essay. She saved it and then when she
 opened it again the whole text has turned into hashtags...can anything be
 done?
 Regards
 Natalie

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Re: All essay text turned to hashtags--commentary

2014-01-05 Thread Rory O'Farrell
On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 17:07:27 +0100
Josef Latt josef.l...@gmx.net wrote:

 
 
 Am 05.01.2014 15:06, schrieb Hagar Delest:
 
  The power shortage is clearly a root cause.
  Perhaps we need an old disk to test what happens when we pull the plug
  during a save operation.
 
 Whats about the autorecovery function of AOO.

It can work, but for critical work relying on it can be catastrophic in the 
instances that it fails.

With an unimportant file, try pulling your power cord a few times; it is not 
10% reliable..
-- 
Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie

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Re: All essay text turned to hashtags--commentary

2014-01-05 Thread Rima Schulkind
Despite my fear of being considered too dumb to use OO, here's my experience: 
when a document I was working on (just trying to insert a line by hitting 
return between two lines) suddenly became all hashtag gibberish - as then did 
all my stored OO files -  I reinstalled OO. And all was well. 


On Jan 5, 2014, at 11:15 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

 On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 7:23 AM, Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie wrote:
 On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 12:47:59 +0100
 Andrea Pescetti pesce...@apache.org wrote:
 
 Hagar Delest wrote:
 losing the file saved last time is just unacceptable, it's a major data
 loss (P1 in the bug tracker). This problem should be investigated as
 seriously as possible.
 No bashing needed, just look at the facts.
 
 The problem here is all with reproducing the bug. OpenOffice has so many
 users, on so many systems, that even a problem that occurs, say, once in
 ten millions save operations will get reported.
 
 It's a fact that there exist some users who report losing a document.
 But it's not even clear if the culprit in those cases is OpenOffice, or
 the operating system, or a RAM problem, or a disk failure... Like you,
 I've been a regular OpenOffice user for many years and I never had a
 similar problem.
 
 A random note if this can help: to study this problem, once I tried to
 deliberately fill the hard disk until I had a few MBytes free. Then I
 opened a heavy presentation file, with many images, and edited it
 normally, adding and removing content. An automatic backup failed (due
 to the full disk) and I think an error message was displayed (I/O
 error). I then tried a save operation, which failed with the same error.
 But then I was stuck: the file I was editing was corrupted (the images
 did not display) and the last saved version on disk was corrupted too
 (of course this was a test so I had made a backup before testing). Maybe
 this deserves a better investigation.
 
 It could be that some or all of these bug reports are due to a full disk
 (I do know some people who work with 100 MBytes free on disk, so it's
 not even a 1 in millions scenario). The good thing is that this
 scenario can be reproduced.
 
 Regards,
   Andrea.
 
 
 
 I think there are two problems here, which both Hagar and I are aware of 
 from the Forum. One is the Hashtag problem, which I agree is not readily 
 reproducible and in many cases may be caused by over hasty close down of OO 
 or operating system, the other associated problem is the erasure of the 
 saved copy which seems to occur often alongside the hashtag problem; no 
 matter what causes the hashtag problem, I'm sure we all agree that a saved 
 copy of the file should not be spontaneously erased.
 
 The question should be asked When does OpenOffice erase the previous copy 
 of the file?. Surely this should only be after the Save process reaches a 
 conclusion. I can recollect from my CP/M days that one had to adopt a 
 certain sequence in saving a file for best security. One saved the file to 
 File.new (say), then renamed File.org to File.bak then renamed File.new to 
 File.org. Is this or a similar protocol being followed in OO? Perhaps some 
 temporary relief can be obtained by changing the options in OpenOffice to 
 _always_ generate a backup.
 
 
 That would introduce other failure modes:
 
 1) User would require disk space for two complete copies of the
 document.  So in the marginal case a user might load a document,
 change just a character and then be unable to save.
 
 2) Some file systems handle modify and create permissions separately.
 So you could have the ability to modify a document, but not create a
 new (temporary) one.
 
 There are certainly cases where such an approach could help.  But it
 is tricky when dealing with the exceptions.
 
 The other thing to watch for is that some users cannot find their
 files after saving, even if there is no problem with the saving.  They
 forget the same, what folder they used, etc.
 
 -Rob
 
 
 If the user turns such an option off, then on his own head be the 
 responsibility for file loss!
 
 I should say that I have not experienced the hashtag problem in 6 years of 
 heavy use of OO Writer on Windows 2000/XP or linux systems.
 
 
 
 --
 Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie
 
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Re: All essay text turned to hashtags--commentary

2014-01-05 Thread Rory O'Farrell
On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 16:12:20 +
Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie wrote:

 On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 17:07:27 +0100
 Josef Latt josef.l...@gmx.net wrote:
 
  
  
  Am 05.01.2014 15:06, schrieb Hagar Delest:
  
   The power shortage is clearly a root cause.
   Perhaps we need an old disk to test what happens when we pull the plug
   during a save operation.
  
  Whats about the autorecovery function of AOO.
 
 It can work, but for critical work relying on it can be catastrophic in the 
 instances that it fails.
 
 With an unimportant file, try pulling your power cord a few times; it is not 
 10% reliable..

Sorry! 10% should read 100%
 -- 
 Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie
 
 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
 For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
 
 


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Re: All essay text turned to hashtags

2014-01-05 Thread Rory O'Farrell
On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 11:05:25 -0500
Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote:

 On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 3:53 PM, Hagar Delest hagar.del...@laposte.net wrote:
  Sadly, quite nothing to do, see:
  https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6t=17677 where you'll
  see that I've recorded more than 150 occurrences of this problem.
 
 
 And there were 368 reported UFO sightings in December:
 http://www.nuforc.org/webreports/ndxe201312.html
 
 But I'm not rushing to learn Klingon...
 
 If you search Google for phrases like Word document lost when saving
 you'll see 100's of reports of this as well.

With respect, we are not concerned about MS Word's reliability. But 
OpenOffice's ought be a matter of concern for us all. We are all on the same 
side here.

 
  I've raised this issue on the dev mailing list:
  http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@openoffice.apache.org/msg15177.html and
  interest has been slightly raised (new comments in the bug report) but this
  is a difficult problem that can't be reproduced, hence very difficult to
  spot. Nevertheless, even in case of bug, the save process could be improved
  IMHO.
  Any power shortage?
 
  Check the temporary folder of the system (see in OOo
  ToolsOptionsOOoPaths). If there are folders like sgmlf.tmp with a file
  having the same name inside, make a copy of that file, rename it to .odt and
  cross your fingers. If you have not rebooted, you might have those files
  still there.
 
 
 It would be great to ask for information like this whenever someone
 reports this kind of problem.  150 reports without this detail are
 useless.  But even 10 reports with this detail might indicate a
 pattern.
 
 1) What AOO version is in use?
 
 2) What OS version?

The Version and OS are usually indicated in the footer of the repoorting post. 
Most OS versions are Windows
 
 3) What file type (extension) was being saved?
 
 4) Where was the file being saved?  USB?  Network drive?

In many cases to the hard disk. USB saves as you say below can unreliable and 
we try to separate them out from spontaneous hashtag events.

 
 5) Is autosaved enabled?
 
 6) When you returned to your computer was it in the same state?  For
 example, had you lost power?  Did the OS force a reboot?  Did your
 laptop hibernate?

Hibernation/Suspend of a computer with an open OO file reportedly can cause 
corruption. Some hashtag/damaged archive events seem to be caused by over hasty 
closedown of the computer, such as by snapping laptop lid shut, or power off of 
the desktop before the software/hardware write buffers have flushed. 
 
 Just anecdotally, and without deeper analysis, I see a number of
 reports on OpenOffice and with Microsoft Office, where a USB memory
 stick is being used.   Savvy users know how to properly remove a
 memory stick.  But not all users do.  This can cause problems.

We know this and advise not to work direct to a USB stick, also advising 
observance of correct removal protocols. Also (added information) anecdotally 
(also personal experience) USB sticks of earlier manufacture can fail (internal 
chip failure) after a smallish (circa 1000 is suggested in some postings) 
number of read/write cycles. I have no knowledge of more recent USB stick 
reliability.

 
 Another case to watch out for is old Wordperfect files.   A user saves
 a WPD file, upgrades OOo 3.3.0 to AOO 4.0.1 and now their file won't
 open.  But this is due to the loss of WPD support, not due to damage
 to the file, though the symptoms look the same at first.
 
 Another thing to look for is a forced reboot, the kind that recent
 versions of Windows do when installing a critical security patch.
 Some antivirus software does this as well.  If you have a document
 loaded in OpenOffice with unsaved changed, and have autosave enabled,
 and leave your machine on for a week, with OpenOffice running, and a
 system restart is forced, what will happen?  Is there a correlation to
 problems in that scenario?
 


-- 
Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie

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Re: All essay text turned to hashtags

2014-01-05 Thread Hagar Delest

Le 05/01/2014 17:05, Rob Weir a écrit :

It would be great to ask for information like this whenever someone
reports this kind of problem.  150 reports without this detail are
useless.  But even 10 reports with this detail might indicate a
pattern.

1) What AOO version is in use?

2) What OS version?

3) What file type (extension) was being saved?

4) Where was the file being saved?  USB?  Network drive?

5) Is autosaved enabled?

6) When you returned to your computer was it in the same state?  For
example, had you lost power?  Did the OS force a reboot?  Did your
laptop hibernate?


Have you at least read the topic and the post with all the cases I've 
recorded???
You'll see that most of these information are available. And each linked topic 
usually have also these information (with more details of course).
- https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6t=17677#p81363



Just anecdotally, and without deeper analysis, I see a number of
reports on OpenOffice and with Microsoft Office, where a USB memory
stick is being used.   Savvy users know how to properly remove a
memory stick.  But not all users do.  This can cause problems.


None of the 150+ cases I've recorded involve USB drives. Of course we know that 
case. That's why I've discarded them systematically.
NB: one more case this very day.



Another case to watch out for is old Wordperfect files.   A user saves
a WPD file, upgrades OOo 3.3.0 to AOO 4.0.1 and now their file won't
open.  But this is due to the loss of WPD support, not due to damage
to the file, though the symptoms look the same at first.


Again, just read the topic. Most of the files are ODF, some .doc. No exotic 
format like WPD.



Another thing to look for is a forced reboot, the kind that recent
versions of Windows do when installing a critical security patch.
Some antivirus software does this as well.  If you have a document
loaded in OpenOffice with unsaved changed, and have autosave enabled,
and leave your machine on for a week, with OpenOffice running, and a
system restart is forced, what will happen?  Is there a correlation to
problems in that scenario?


And?
Even if the boot is forced, as I said, it would be understandable to lose the 
version that is currently under edition. But it is unacceptable to lose the 
saved file.

I know that this is a difficult problem but please stop trying to find a 
scapegoat.
If nobody wants to investigate, I don't have any problem as long as I don't 
suffer from this issue.
But then, just accept the rants from users who lost important data.
NB: I've switched from MS Word to OOo after I lost data. If I ever face this 
problem, that would be the end of my use of AOO. Users want reliability first. 
All the nice features you can put in an application will never counterbalance 
any important data loss.

Hagar

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Re: All essay text turned to hashtags

2014-01-05 Thread James
I have never encountered any such problem with OO. I am running Open Office 
4.1 under windows 8.1 on a Hewlett Packard HP p2-1334 desk top.

Jim Lambert

-Original Message- 
From: Rory O'Farrell

Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2014 10:35 AM
To: users@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: All essay text turned to hashtags

On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 11:05:25 -0500
Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote:

On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 3:53 PM, Hagar Delest hagar.del...@laposte.net 
wrote:

 Sadly, quite nothing to do, see:
 https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6t=17677 where 
 you'll

 see that I've recorded more than 150 occurrences of this problem.


And there were 368 reported UFO sightings in December:
http://www.nuforc.org/webreports/ndxe201312.html

But I'm not rushing to learn Klingon...

If you search Google for phrases like Word document lost when saving
you'll see 100's of reports of this as well.


With respect, we are not concerned about MS Word's reliability. But 
OpenOffice's ought be a matter of concern for us all. We are all on the same 
side here.




 I've raised this issue on the dev mailing list:
 http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@openoffice.apache.org/msg15177.html and
 interest has been slightly raised (new comments in the bug report) but 
 this

 is a difficult problem that can't be reproduced, hence very difficult to
 spot. Nevertheless, even in case of bug, the save process could be 
 improved

 IMHO.
 Any power shortage?

 Check the temporary folder of the system (see in OOo
 ToolsOptionsOOoPaths). If there are folders like sgmlf.tmp with a 
 file
 having the same name inside, make a copy of that file, rename it to .odt 
 and

 cross your fingers. If you have not rebooted, you might have those files
 still there.


It would be great to ask for information like this whenever someone
reports this kind of problem.  150 reports without this detail are
useless.  But even 10 reports with this detail might indicate a
pattern.

1) What AOO version is in use?

2) What OS version?


The Version and OS are usually indicated in the footer of the repoorting 
post. Most OS versions are Windows


3) What file type (extension) was being saved?

4) Where was the file being saved?  USB?  Network drive?


In many cases to the hard disk. USB saves as you say below can unreliable 
and we try to separate them out from spontaneous hashtag events.




5) Is autosaved enabled?

6) When you returned to your computer was it in the same state?  For
example, had you lost power?  Did the OS force a reboot?  Did your
laptop hibernate?


Hibernation/Suspend of a computer with an open OO file reportedly can cause 
corruption. Some hashtag/damaged archive events seem to be caused by over 
hasty closedown of the computer, such as by snapping laptop lid shut, or 
power off of the desktop before the software/hardware write buffers have 
flushed.



Just anecdotally, and without deeper analysis, I see a number of
reports on OpenOffice and with Microsoft Office, where a USB memory
stick is being used.   Savvy users know how to properly remove a
memory stick.  But not all users do.  This can cause problems.


We know this and advise not to work direct to a USB stick, also advising 
observance of correct removal protocols. Also (added information) 
anecdotally (also personal experience) USB sticks of earlier manufacture can 
fail (internal chip failure) after a smallish (circa 1000 is suggested in 
some postings) number of read/write cycles. I have no knowledge of more 
recent USB stick reliability.




Another case to watch out for is old Wordperfect files.   A user saves
a WPD file, upgrades OOo 3.3.0 to AOO 4.0.1 and now their file won't
open.  But this is due to the loss of WPD support, not due to damage
to the file, though the symptoms look the same at first.

Another thing to look for is a forced reboot, the kind that recent
versions of Windows do when installing a critical security patch.
Some antivirus software does this as well.  If you have a document
loaded in OpenOffice with unsaved changed, and have autosave enabled,
and leave your machine on for a week, with OpenOffice running, and a
system restart is forced, what will happen?  Is there a correlation to
problems in that scenario?




--
Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie

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Re: All essay text turned to hashtags

2014-01-05 Thread Rob Weir
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Hagar Delest hagar.del...@laposte.net wrote:
 Le 05/01/2014 17:05, Rob Weir a écrit :

 It would be great to ask for information like this whenever someone
 reports this kind of problem.  150 reports without this detail are
 useless.  But even 10 reports with this detail might indicate a
 pattern.

 1) What AOO version is in use?

 2) What OS version?

 3) What file type (extension) was being saved?

 4) Where was the file being saved?  USB?  Network drive?

 5) Is autosaved enabled?

 6) When you returned to your computer was it in the same state?  For
 example, had you lost power?  Did the OS force a reboot?  Did your
 laptop hibernate?


 Have you at least read the topic and the post with all the cases I've
 recorded???
 You'll see that most of these information are available. And each linked
 topic usually have also these information (with more details of course).
 - https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6t=17677#p81363


Well, obviously reports with partial information from 5 years ago are
not really useful.  As I pointed out, I can show over 300 UFO
sightings from just December.  So what?

I'm suggesting collecting this information systematically, for new
reports, in 2014 using AOO 4.0.1.  For example, you did not ask all of
these questions when you responded to the user on this list just now.



 Just anecdotally, and without deeper analysis, I see a number of
 reports on OpenOffice and with Microsoft Office, where a USB memory
 stick is being used.   Savvy users know how to properly remove a
 memory stick.  But not all users do.  This can cause problems.


 None of the 150+ cases I've recorded involve USB drives. Of course we know
 that case. That's why I've discarded them systematically.
 NB: one more case this very day.


This isn't really true.  I did a spot check of the reports and some of
them did involve USB drives and for many of them the question was not
even asked.



 Another case to watch out for is old Wordperfect files.   A user saves
 a WPD file, upgrades OOo 3.3.0 to AOO 4.0.1 and now their file won't
 open.  But this is due to the loss of WPD support, not due to damage
 to the file, though the symptoms look the same at first.


 Again, just read the topic. Most of the files are ODF, some .doc. No exotic
 format like WPD.



 Another thing to look for is a forced reboot, the kind that recent
 versions of Windows do when installing a critical security patch.
 Some antivirus software does this as well.  If you have a document
 loaded in OpenOffice with unsaved changed, and have autosave enabled,
 and leave your machine on for a week, with OpenOffice running, and a
 system restart is forced, what will happen?  Is there a correlation to
 problems in that scenario?


 And?
 Even if the boot is forced, as I said, it would be understandable to lose
 the version that is currently under edition. But it is unacceptable to lose
 the saved file.


And it would be unacceptable to see a UFO.  The question is whether
any actually have or whether it is user error.

 I know that this is a difficult problem but please stop trying to find a
 scapegoat.
 If nobody wants to investigate, I don't have any problem as long as I don't
 suffer from this issue.
 But then, just accept the rants from users who lost important data.
 NB: I've switched from MS Word to OOo after I lost data. If I ever face this
 problem, that would be the end of my use of AOO. Users want reliability
 first. All the nice features you can put in an application will never
 counterbalance any important data loss.


No one is scapegoating.  I'm just saying with 100 million users and 5
years and not a single reproducible error?  Really?  Seriously?

-Rob


 Hagar


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Re: All essay text turned to hashtags

2014-01-05 Thread Rory O'Farrell
I've clipped the previous messages as this posting doesn't depend on them.
Rob suggests the following queries be put to Hashtag/file loss posters. I've 
added some choices to the file save destinations.  Are there other questions 
that should be asked? Once we reach agreement on the questions I'm sure the 
Forum will use this questionaire to gather information on hashtag/file loss 
cases.


1) What AOO version is in use?
2) What OS version?
3) What file type (extension) was being saved?
4) Where was the file being saved?  Local Drive? USB stick?  Network drive? 
External drive?
5) Is autosaved enabled?
6) When you returned to your computer was it in the same state?  For
 example, had you lost power?  Did the OS force a reboot?  Did your
 laptop hibernate?

-- 
Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie

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Re: All essay text turned to hashtags

2014-01-05 Thread Rory O'Farrell
I've added your suggestion Roband Steve Ahlers to a draft document. I'll wait 
in case of more input and then we can consider a short questionaire and revise 
the wording.

-- 
Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie

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Re: All essay text turned to hashtags

2014-01-05 Thread Hagar Delest

Top posting.
OK, you win. I'm fed up with this kind of discussion, so last post in this 
discussion.
I won't ask your questions because when we ask even a basic one, very often we 
get no reply (I guess that frustration is for something).

After almost 8 years supporting users in forums, I think that we have a 
reasonable 6th sense to spot the smoking guns in such problems. I'll continue 
to record the cases in the forum. Even if you're the most vocal one on the 
mailing list, I hope that some dev will try to have a look.

If you think that crashed filed are like UFOs then let users experience UFOs.

Hagar


Le 05/01/2014 19:45, Rob Weir a écrit :


On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Hagar Delest hagar.del...@laposte.net wrote:

Le 05/01/2014 17:05, Rob Weir a écrit :


It would be great to ask for information like this whenever someone
reports this kind of problem.  150 reports without this detail are
useless.  But even 10 reports with this detail might indicate a
pattern.

1) What AOO version is in use?

2) What OS version?

3) What file type (extension) was being saved?

4) Where was the file being saved?  USB?  Network drive?

5) Is autosaved enabled?

6) When you returned to your computer was it in the same state?  For
example, had you lost power?  Did the OS force a reboot?  Did your
laptop hibernate?



Have you at least read the topic and the post with all the cases I've
recorded???
You'll see that most of these information are available. And each linked
topic usually have also these information (with more details of course).
- https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6t=17677#p81363



Well, obviously reports with partial information from 5 years ago are
not really useful.  As I pointed out, I can show over 300 UFO
sightings from just December.  So what?

I'm suggesting collecting this information systematically, for new
reports, in 2014 using AOO 4.0.1.  For example, you did not ask all of
these questions when you responded to the user on this list just now.





Just anecdotally, and without deeper analysis, I see a number of
reports on OpenOffice and with Microsoft Office, where a USB memory
stick is being used.   Savvy users know how to properly remove a
memory stick.  But not all users do.  This can cause problems.



None of the 150+ cases I've recorded involve USB drives. Of course we know
that case. That's why I've discarded them systematically.
NB: one more case this very day.



This isn't really true.  I did a spot check of the reports and some of
them did involve USB drives and for many of them the question was not
even asked.





Another case to watch out for is old Wordperfect files.   A user saves
a WPD file, upgrades OOo 3.3.0 to AOO 4.0.1 and now their file won't
open.  But this is due to the loss of WPD support, not due to damage
to the file, though the symptoms look the same at first.



Again, just read the topic. Most of the files are ODF, some .doc. No exotic
format like WPD.




Another thing to look for is a forced reboot, the kind that recent
versions of Windows do when installing a critical security patch.
Some antivirus software does this as well.  If you have a document
loaded in OpenOffice with unsaved changed, and have autosave enabled,
and leave your machine on for a week, with OpenOffice running, and a
system restart is forced, what will happen?  Is there a correlation to
problems in that scenario?



And?
Even if the boot is forced, as I said, it would be understandable to lose
the version that is currently under edition. But it is unacceptable to lose
the saved file.



And it would be unacceptable to see a UFO.  The question is whether
any actually have or whether it is user error.


I know that this is a difficult problem but please stop trying to find a
scapegoat.
If nobody wants to investigate, I don't have any problem as long as I don't
suffer from this issue.
But then, just accept the rants from users who lost important data.
NB: I've switched from MS Word to OOo after I lost data. If I ever face this
problem, that would be the end of my use of AOO. Users want reliability
first. All the nice features you can put in an application will never
counterbalance any important data loss.



No one is scapegoating.  I'm just saying with 100 million users and 5
years and not a single reproducible error?  Really?  Seriously?

-Rob



Hagar


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Re: All essay text turned to hashtags--commentary

2014-01-05 Thread Keith N. McKenna
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Anthony J. Rudgers wrote:
 Greetings All!
 
 The present hashtag problem is is symptomatic of the entire OO 
 software suite.  An ordinary user of OO, doing ordinary things w/ a
 word processor or other office-suite software, suddenly gets
 something that is really screwy,  doesn't know what to do to fix
 it.  Much of their production gets lost, or else, they spend a lot
 of time attempting to get their WP document or spreadsheet the way
 they want it by trying again  again to get around built-in or
 default features (or bugs!) of OO that they don't understand or
 know how to modify ( OO documentation, as I have found, is meager
  inadequate).  Unless you're a long-time  dedicated user, the OO
 suite never seems to do quite what you'd like it to do  you
 usually can't figure out how to fix things ON YOUR OWN COMPUTER W/
 YOUR EXISTING SOFTWARE.  One has to have the ability to fix things
 quickly on their own w/o going to the experts every time a 
 problem w/ OO arises!  For the casual user, the OO product appears 
 flawed.  People who use any software product want to spend their
 time  creativity on what they are developing, rather than spending
 time  effort on issues associated w/ the tool they are using to
 develop it. OO office software needs much effort to make it more
 efficient, largely error-free,  much more user friendly.
 
 Beat wishes,
 
 Anthony J. Rudgers Orlando, FL U.S.A.
 
Mr. Rudgers;

Though your criticism bears much truth I feel it over emphasizes
certain aspects. Many of the support questions that are seen here and
on the forums are in the ways that AOO differs from other software of
the same type.

Most of my 20+ years in industry were spent in doing direct support
and I know from experience that many ordinary users frequntly do not
even bother to consult the help resources that are available or just
complain that it does not work like xyz did.

This particular problem is one that is very difficult to track down
because it happens so infrequently that it is difficult for QA and
developers to replicate.

You say that documentation is meager and inadequate. I would direct
you to
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/OOo3_User_Guides/OOo3.3_User_Guide_Chapters.
Though these are for Version 3.3 much of the information they contain
is relevant to later versions, including version 4.0.1. Also available
is a getting started guide for version 3.4 from
http://www.odfauthors.org/apache-openoffice/english/user-guides/getting-started-3.4/published.

There is an ongoing documentation effort to create up to date
documentation for Version 4 and beyond on the wiki. We are always
looking for volunteers to help with this effort and could use your
knowledge and skills in this effort. More information can be found at
our orientation page at
http://openoffice.apache.org/orientation/intro-doc.html.

All software is imperfect and has bugs. The only way any software
product to improve is open and honest dialog between all parties. This
is specially true for Open Source Software. Honest discussion on
venues such as this and clear reports of possible bugs in the projects
Bugzilla tracking system at https://issues.apache.org/ooo/ are ways
that all users can help make this a better product. The QA volunteers
have provided excellent hints for creating good bug reports in
Bugzilla at https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/QA/HowToFileIssue.

Regards
Keith N. McKenna

 -Original Message- From: Gary Frost Sent: Saturday, January
 04, 2014 8:26 PM To: users@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: All
 essay text turned to hashtags
 
 Maybe, I'm an anomaly here, but I've never had any of these issues
 at all. Generally, I work on a MacBook Air with the current up to
 date OS. I do also create PDFs so that I can work on documents on
 my iPhone in Pages. Using the iPhone is usefully for last minute
 work for me.
 
 I've thought about good version options for other iOS devices such
 as the iPad Air which I intend to purchase. I work scrips and
 other technical documents so it is essential for me to use best
 practices to prevent loss of work.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Jan 4, 2014, at 5:15 PM, Alan Cliffe
 drspecta...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 
 I don't know if it can be retrieved; for whatever it's worth,
 I've had that happen too once or twice so now I always create a
 PDF copy of everything I do in OO.
 
 
  From: natalie guttridge
 natalieguttri...@hotmail.co.uk To:
 users@openoffice.apache.org users@openoffice.apache.org Sent:
 Saturday, January 4, 2014 8:04 AM Subject: All essay text turned
 to hashtags
 
 
 Please help My daughter has written a 2000 word essay. She saved
 it and then when she opened it again the whole text has turned
 into hashtags...can anything be done? Regards Natalie
 
 Sent from my iPad 
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All essay text turned to hashtags

2014-01-04 Thread natalie guttridge
Please help
My daughter has written a 2000 word essay. She saved it and then when she 
opened it again the whole text has turned into hashtags...can anything be done?
Regards
Natalie

Sent from my iPad
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Re: All essay text turned to hashtags

2014-01-04 Thread Dave Barton
Copy to Natalie - Non-Subscribed Poster

 Original Message  
From: John Meyer johnme...@pueblocomputing.com To:
users@openoffice.apache.org
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2014 07:33:50 -0700

 On 1/4/2014 6:04 AM, natalie guttridge wrote:
 Please help
 My daughter has written a 2000 word essay. She saved it and then when
 she opened it again the whole text has turned into hashtags...can
 anything be done?
 Regards
 Natalie

 Sent from my iPad

 What's the extension and file type?
 
 What type of computer did she create it on?
 
 What type of computer did she open it on?  Was it the same computer and
 same program?

Natalie, please reply to the users@openoffice.apache.org email address,
not directly to any individual. There many other list subscribers who
may also be able to assist you.



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Re: All essay text turned to hashtags

2014-01-04 Thread Alan Cliffe
I don't know if it can be retrieved; for whatever it's worth, I've had that 
happen too once or twice so now I always create a PDF copy of everything I do 
in OO. 
 


 From: natalie guttridge natalieguttri...@hotmail.co.uk
To: users@openoffice.apache.org users@openoffice.apache.org 
Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2014 8:04 AM
Subject: All essay text turned to hashtags
  

Please help
My daughter has written a 2000 word essay. She saved it and then when she 
opened it again the whole text has turned into hashtags...can anything be done?
Regards
Natalie

Sent from my iPad
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Re: All essay text turned to hashtags--commentary

2014-01-04 Thread TN Patriot
On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 22:59:31 -0500
Anthony J. Rudgers anthonyrudg...@att.net wrote:

 Greetings All!
 
 The present hashtag problem is is symptomatic of the entire OO software 
 suite.  An ordinary user of OO, doing ordinary things w/ a word processor or 
 other office-suite software, suddenly gets something that is really screwy, 
  doesn't know what to do to fix it.  Much of their production gets lost, or 
 else, they spend a lot of time attempting to get their WP document or 
 spreadsheet the way they want it by trying again  again to get around 
 built-in or default features (or bugs!) of OO that they don't understand or 
 know how to modify ( OO documentation, as I have found, is meager  
 inadequate).  Unless you're a long-time  dedicated user, the OO suite never 
 seems to do quite what you'd like it to do  you usually can't figure out 
 how to fix things ON YOUR OWN COMPUTER W/ YOUR EXISTING SOFTWARE.  One has 
 to have the ability to fix things quickly on their own w/o going to the 
 experts every time a problem w/ OO arises!  For the casual user, the OO 
 product appears flawed.  People who use any software product want to spend 
 their time  creativity on what they are developing, rather than spending 
 time  effort on issues associated w/ the tool they are using to develop it. 
 OO office software needs much effort to make it more efficient, largely 
 error-free,  much more user friendly.
 
 Beat wishes,
 
 Anthony J. Rudgers
 Orlando, FL U.S.A.
 

  With people like you, your problem with 'software' is you're not smart enough 
to
  use it correctly.

  In the minimum of 10 years I've been using OpenOffice, I've yet to have any 
of the
  problems you or the OP have had. Seems an awful lot of other people are the 
same
  way. It seems *YOU* are your own worst problem, especially when you come on 
mailing
  lists with a bunch of moronic FUD and absolutely nothing to back it up.

  I'll continue to use AOO, with no problems, on my system and just keep 
laughing at
  dimbulbs like you who have no decent reason to own a computer much less the
  ability to turn one on without breaking it.

  Now please, go take along walk on a short pier in Antarctic waters.


-- 
http://www.lawcollective.org/  Learn your rights through cartoons!

http://www.roadblock.org/rights/  Know your rights about and at roadblocks!

http://fija.org/  Learn about Jury Nullification! Take back your rights from the
over-reaching: police, justice system and government!

Why does the government want to ban semi-auto weapons? Because you won’t get in 
the box car willingly.

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Re: All essay text turned to hashtags--commentary

2014-01-04 Thread Gary Frost
I don't get it either. I've never had any of these problems during years of use.


Sent from my iPhone

 On Jan 4, 2014, at 10:07 PM, TN Patriot irgu...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 22:59:31 -0500
 Anthony J. Rudgers anthonyrudg...@att.net wrote:
 
 Greetings All!
 
 The present hashtag problem is is symptomatic of the entire OO software 
 suite.  An ordinary user of OO, doing ordinary things w/ a word processor or 
 other office-suite software, suddenly gets something that is really screwy, 
  doesn't know what to do to fix it.  Much of their production gets lost, or 
 else, they spend a lot of time attempting to get their WP document or 
 spreadsheet the way they want it by trying again  again to get around 
 built-in or default features (or bugs!) of OO that they don't understand or 
 know how to modify ( OO documentation, as I have found, is meager  
 inadequate).  Unless you're a long-time  dedicated user, the OO suite never 
 seems to do quite what you'd like it to do  you usually can't figure out 
 how to fix things ON YOUR OWN COMPUTER W/ YOUR EXISTING SOFTWARE.  One has 
 to have the ability to fix things quickly on their own w/o going to the 
 experts every time a problem w/ OO arises!  For the casual user, the OO 
 product appears flawed.  People who use any software product want to spend 
 their time  creativity on what they are developing, rather than spending 
 time  effort on issues associated w/ the tool they are using to develop it. 
 OO office software needs much effort to make it more efficient, largely 
 error-free,  much more user friendly.
 
 Beat wishes,
 
 Anthony J. Rudgers
 Orlando, FL U.S.A.
 
  With people like you, your problem with 'software' is you're not smart 
 enough to
  use it correctly.
 
  In the minimum of 10 years I've been using OpenOffice, I've yet to have any 
 of the
  problems you or the OP have had. Seems an awful lot of other people are the 
 same
  way. It seems *YOU* are your own worst problem, especially when you come on 
 mailing
  lists with a bunch of moronic FUD and absolutely nothing to back it up.
 
  I'll continue to use AOO, with no problems, on my system and just keep 
 laughing at
  dimbulbs like you who have no decent reason to own a computer much less the
  ability to turn one on without breaking it.
 
  Now please, go take along walk on a short pier in Antarctic waters.
 
 
 -- 
 http://www.lawcollective.org/  Learn your rights through cartoons!
 
 http://www.roadblock.org/rights/  Know your rights about and at roadblocks!
 
 http://fija.org/  Learn about Jury Nullification! Take back your rights from 
 the
 over-reaching: police, justice system and government!
 
 Why does the government want to ban semi-auto weapons? Because you won’t get 
 in 
 the box car willingly.
 
 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
 For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
 

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