[vchkpw] List ettiquite (was Re: [vchkpw] Moving qmail queue)
This is strictly a qmail problem. it has zippo to do with vpopmail. Answering this question only encourages further abuse of the list. Agreed, but disagreed at the same time. :-) sorry, i'm not directly flaming Andrew, i'm flaming the concept of indiscriminate 'help', which is not help, it's a crutch. are there really that many people online who don't know how to spell g-o-o-g-l-e? I do agree on this point. Google is always my first line of defense and, interestingly enough, the first hit off of qmail move queue is relavent, although not detailled. At least to me, qmail and vpopmail are inseparable. I don't remember the last time I've run qmail without vpopmail running right on beside it, even in single-domain systems where mail user also has a unix account. As far as list abuse goes -- lists are here to facilitate people helping people. Period. qmail is directly related to vpopmail (or vice-versa) so throwing out a quick help for something not directly vpopmail but very likely been solved by someone using vpopmail is not list abuse, IMO. Why should I be subscribed to the (higher traffic) qmail list when everyone on vpopmail is also running qmail and it a quick answer does not significantely lower the signal-to-noise ratio? When the thread carries on (how can I hide my IP, anyone?) and it's clearly nowhere related to the official list subject or even to qmail now, _then_ it should be gently moved offlist. Hell I'm not getting any feedback on my vpopmail-postgres in 5.3.16 questions so why not help someone else out while waiting? :-) Indiscriminately telling people go there and try is a little cold in my opinion, especially since it's so closely related to the list subject and you already know the answer. My father used to do something similar to me -- What's [insert word here] mean? Go look it up. -- He knew the answer, and it would have taken less energy and effort to just tell me in a single sentence or two, but instead he made me go look it up -- what did it teach me? Virtually nothing. His theory was that by looking it up I'd remember it but that's got no basis in reality. I already knew how to do research (and was quite good at it) and how to operate a dictionary, but if I was in the middle of a good book or something it was more of a waste of time and laziness on both our parts to have to go look it up. I have three children of my own now and that's one thing I am certainly not going to do to them. Now if you replied with the answer and said the resources are over here and there, and this really isn't on-topic -- that's different. You've given the answer, provided links and it's now in the archives so that anyone else who comes and searches (which the OP apparently didn't do, and I didn't realize) will find the answer. The end result: The list helps not only the OP but anyone coming afterward who practices a it of ettiquite before indiscriminately asking questions. Yeah it's more work on the answerer's part but really the point is moot -- if you're going to spend a minute to reply, why not spend two and reply with an answer that will help more than just the one person? So no flame from this side -- just another side to what we both see as a (potential) problem. :-) Regards, Andrew
Re: [vchkpw] List ettiquite (was Re: [vchkpw] Moving qmail queue)
Well said, and while I still disagree on several points, I'll take it off-list - as we're in a recursive loop of off-topic discussion of off-topic discussion! At 09:00 AM 02-18-2003, Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: This is strictly a qmail problem. it has zippo to do with vpopmail. Answering this question only encourages further abuse of the list. Agreed, but disagreed at the same time. :-) sorry, i'm not directly flaming Andrew, i'm flaming the concept of indiscriminate 'help', which is not help, it's a crutch. are there really that many people online who don't know how to spell g-o-o-g-l-e? I do agree on this point. Google is always my first line of defense and, interestingly enough, the first hit off of qmail move queue is relavent, although not detailled. At least to me, qmail and vpopmail are inseparable. I don't remember the last time I've run qmail without vpopmail running right on beside it, even in single-domain systems where mail user also has a unix account. As far as list abuse goes -- lists are here to facilitate people helping people. Period. qmail is directly related to vpopmail (or vice-versa) so throwing out a quick help for something not directly vpopmail but very likely been solved by someone using vpopmail is not list abuse, IMO. Why should I be subscribed to the (higher traffic) qmail list when everyone on vpopmail is also running qmail and it a quick answer does not significantely lower the signal-to-noise ratio? When the thread carries on (how can I hide my IP, anyone?) and it's clearly nowhere related to the official list subject or even to qmail now, _then_ it should be gently moved offlist. Hell I'm not getting any feedback on my vpopmail-postgres in 5.3.16 questions so why not help someone else out while waiting? :-) Indiscriminately telling people go there and try is a little cold in my opinion, especially since it's so closely related to the list subject and you already know the answer. My father used to do something similar to me -- What's [insert word here] mean? Go look it up. -- He knew the answer, and it would have taken less energy and effort to just tell me in a single sentence or two, but instead he made me go look it up -- what did it teach me? Virtually nothing. His theory was that by looking it up I'd remember it but that's got no basis in reality. I already knew how to do research (and was quite good at it) and how to operate a dictionary, but if I was in the middle of a good book or something it was more of a waste of time and laziness on both our parts to have to go look it up. I have three children of my own now and that's one thing I am certainly not going to do to them. Now if you replied with the answer and said the resources are over here and there, and this really isn't on-topic -- that's different. You've given the answer, provided links and it's now in the archives so that anyone else who comes and searches (which the OP apparently didn't do, and I didn't realize) will find the answer. The end result: The list helps not only the OP but anyone coming afterward who practices a it of ettiquite before indiscriminately asking questions. Yeah it's more work on the answerer's part but really the point is moot -- if you're going to spend a minute to reply, why not spend two and reply with an answer that will help more than just the one person? So no flame from this side -- just another side to what we both see as a (potential) problem. :-) Regards, Andrew Paul Theodoropoulos http://www.anastrophe.com http://folding.stanford.edu The Nicest Misanthrope on the Net
Re: [vchkpw] List ettiquite (was Re: [vchkpw] Moving qmail queue)
This is strictly a qmail problem. it has zippo to do with vpopmail. Answering this question only encourages further abuse of the list. Agreed, but disagreed at the same time. :-) why should we bother with a little help if that help still less perhaps other can help some more i think that what this mailing list is for ? My father used to do something similar to me -- What's [insert word here] mean? Go look it up. -- He knew the answer, and it would have taken less energy and effort to just tell me in a single sentence or two, but instead he made me go look it up -- what did it teach me? Virtually nothing. His theory was that by looking it up I'd remember it but that's got no basis in reality. I already knew how to do research (and was quite good at it) and how to operate a dictionary, but if I was in the middle of a good book or something it was more of a waste of time and laziness on both our parts to have to go look it up. I have three children of my own now and that's one thing I am certainly not going to do to them. Now if you replied with the answer and said the resources are over here and there, and this really isn't on-topic -- that's different. You've given the answer, provided links and it's now in the archives so that anyone else who comes and searches (which the OP apparently didn't do, and I didn't realize) will find the answer. The end result: The list helps not only the OP but anyone coming afterward who practices a it of ettiquite before indiscriminately asking questions. Yeah it's more work on the answerer's part but really the point is moot -- if you're going to spend a minute to reply, why not spend two and reply with an answer that will help more than just the one person? i wonder what would you become if your father keep telling the answer for all the question ? my concept is simple, that is try it on my experience not all the answer is 100% guarantee success you got to dig up a little more for some problem and side effect from answer that you will do i'm sorry, it's not flaming the other or so, just my opinion. as long as no OP ... why should we bother ? -- thx onOs
Re: [vchkpw] List ettiquite (was Re: [vchkpw] Moving qmail queue)
Andrew, On Tue, February 18, 2003 5:00 pm, Andrew Kohlsmith said: Indiscriminately telling people go there and try is a little cold in my opinion, especially since it's so closely related to the list subject and you already know the answer. My father used to do something similar to me -- What's [insert word here] mean? Go look it up. -- He knew the answer, and it would have taken less energy and effort to just tell me in a single sentence or two, but instead he made me go look it up -- what did it teach me? Virtually nothing. When I was starting to learn about qmail and vpopmail I had a former colleague and good friend to call on as a resource. His answers to me were, more often than not, along the lines of man dot-qmail or What do the logs say?. Sometimes this would frustrate me if I was looking for a quick fix but I am eternally grateful to him for this approach as I now know so much more about the subject (take a bow Mark P!) As the saying goes: Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime. Or, alternatively: Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to use the Net and he won't bother you for weeks. :o) R. -- Robin Bowes | http://robinbowes.com
