Re: [vdr] 576i output on DVI-HDMI?

2008-07-16 Thread Stuart Morris
It's my understanding that it is the pixel rate that
is doubled to meet the minimum bandwidth requirement
of 25Mpixels/sec for hdmi.
That is pixels are repeated hence doubling the
apparent horizontal resolution.
This is always the case for the 480i and 576i modes.
The modeline you need should be based on standard
EIA/CEA-861B timings like this:

# 1440x576i @ 50Hz (EIA/CEA-861B)
ModeLine 1440x576 27.000 1440 1464 1590 1728 576 581
587 625 -hsync -vsync Interlace

Unfortunately I think there is a special flag that
must be set to indicate pixel-repetition is being used
and I am not sure how you would get a graphics card to
do this.
I have not tried using the above modeline so I cannot
comment on whether it works.
Worth a try though.

There is a good list of EIA/CEA-861B modes here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=947830page=3
I do know the 720p modeline works on my tv.
GTF timings generally don't work for hdmi.

The other issue with interlaced modes is how are the
odd/even fields synchronised?
Is this the same problem with interlaced output on a
good old vga output?

I have often wondered how vdr-xine or xineliboutput
would implement dynamic resolution switching.
It would be easy to upscale everything to a higher
resolution like 1080p.
But what if your tv can handle only 1080i at best.
It would be better to switch resolution
when broadcasts change between 1080i and 720p on a
program-to-program basis.

Stuart

--- Ville Aakko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 2008/7/15 Jukka Vaisanen [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 
  Well the 100Hz is just a kludge to fit 576i on the
 HDMI signaling. My understanding is that the
 following happens:
 
  PC sends 1-1-2-2-3-3-4-4.. but the a/v receiver
 just ignores every other frame because it knows
 about the 576i kludge also.. so it is just seeing
 1+2-3+4 going into the deinterlacer + scaler. The
 100Hz thing is just a workaround to get enough data
 on the link so that the HDMI handshake will happen
 :P
 
 I'd try to make a modeline:
 
 $ gtf 720 576 50
 
   # 720x576 @ 50.00 Hz (GTF) hsync: 29.65 kHz; pclk:
 26.57 MHz
   Modeline 720x576_50.00  26.57  720 736 808 896 
 576 577 580 593
 -HSync +Vsync
 
 $ gtf 720 576 100
 
   # 720x576 @ 100.00 Hz (GTF) hsync: 61.10 kHz;
 pclk: 58.66 MHz
   Modeline 720x576_100.00  58.66  720 760 840 960 
 576 577 580 611
 -HSync +Vsync
 
 (if these blow up your 50'' fullHD plasma, you're on
 your own - try
 them at your own risk!)
 
 I'd suspect VDR+xinelibout would not support this
 out of the box. You
 probably need to make a script or something to
 change resolutions when
 needed. Also, xinelibout might not like resolution
 switches on the
 fly. But if this is the case, it could probably be
 worked around by
 making xinelibout / X part a frontend (I believe
 this is possible and
 a very common setup anyways), and restarting it when
 needed.
 
 OTOH, I don't see much gain in doing the above
 compared to the
 deinterlacing in software and then scaling, apart
 from saving some CPU
 cycles. I'd doubt any external display could do a
 better job, though
 then again, I haven't had any experience with those
 modern (post-4:3
 CRT era TV) displays =)
 
  - Ville
 
 -- 
 -- 
 Ville Aakko - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
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Re: [vdr] 576i output on DVI-HDMI?

2008-07-16 Thread Pasi Kärkkäinen
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 10:08:25AM +0100, Stuart Morris wrote:
 It's my understanding that it is the pixel rate that
 is doubled to meet the minimum bandwidth requirement
 of 25Mpixels/sec for hdmi.
 That is pixels are repeated hence doubling the
 apparent horizontal resolution.
 This is always the case for the 480i and 576i modes.
 The modeline you need should be based on standard
 EIA/CEA-861B timings like this:
 
 # 1440x576i @ 50Hz (EIA/CEA-861B)
 ModeLine 1440x576 27.000 1440 1464 1590 1728 576 581
 587 625 -hsync -vsync Interlace
 
 Unfortunately I think there is a special flag that
 must be set to indicate pixel-repetition is being used
 and I am not sure how you would get a graphics card to
 do this.
 I have not tried using the above modeline so I cannot
 comment on whether it works.
 Worth a try though.
 
 There is a good list of EIA/CEA-861B modes here:
 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=947830page=3
 I do know the 720p modeline works on my tv.
 GTF timings generally don't work for hdmi.
 
 The other issue with interlaced modes is how are the
 odd/even fields synchronised?
 Is this the same problem with interlaced output on a
 good old vga output?
 

I'd like to know this too.. to be able to get 1:1 interlaced
output, fields in sync like in the original stream.

-- Pasi

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Re: [vdr] 576i output on DVI-HDMI?

2008-07-15 Thread Ville Aakko
2008/7/15 Jukka Vaisanen [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 My understanding is that 576i in HDMI is actually done as a 100Hz
 displaymode where each frame is sent twice. This is because the HDMI
 spec doesn't allow speeds as low as required by true 576i..

I'm not actually answering your question (I couldn't since I don't
have any experience with these modern TVs), but, AFAIK, you wouldn't
get very good results by doing what you describe. If every frame of
50Hz interlaced moving picture is shown twice, you'll get annoying
blurriness and / or jerky movement. Anyhow, the movement won't be
smooth as you might expect (because the frames are shown like this:
1-2-1-2-3-4-3-4-5-6-5-6-7-8-7-8 instead of 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8). You'll
get much better results by doing true deintercaling, and showing
every full frame just once (i.e. 1+2-3+4-5+6-7+8 and so on). So what
you want would be quite useless, IMHO, though I could be wrong.
Someone correct me if you know better =).

If you really want to show interlaced material as they are supposed to
- i.e. you are a Hifi-lover - then the only real solution is to get
a display that can (truly) show 50Hz interlaced - perhaps via a DXR3
card, as you used to =).


 I am using xineliboutput currently as the software output device. Of
 course I would prefer it to use 576i for only the interlaced SD channels
 / recordings and change to 1080p for media player with HD content ;)

I'd just deinterlace via software (or hardware), and then upscale x2
(576 * 2 = 1052). Or, maybe forget the upscaling and send 576p (n *
50Hz) trough the HDMI/DVI.

-- 
-- 
Ville Aakko - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [vdr] 576i output on DVI-HDMI?

2008-07-15 Thread Jukka Vaisanen

Well the 100Hz is just a kludge to fit 576i on the HDMI signaling. My 
understanding is that the following happens:

PC sends 1-1-2-2-3-3-4-4.. but the a/v receiver just ignores every other frame 
because it knows about the 576i kludge also.. so it is just seeing 1+2-3+4 
going into the deinterlacer + scaler. The 100Hz thing is just a workaround to 
get enough data on the link so that the HDMI handshake will happen :P

- Vaizki

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ville Aakko
Sent: 15. heinäkuuta 2008 16:53
To: VDR Mailing List
Subject: Re: [vdr] 576i output on DVI-HDMI?

2008/7/15 Jukka Vaisanen [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 My understanding is that 576i in HDMI is actually done as a 100Hz
 displaymode where each frame is sent twice. This is because the HDMI
 spec doesn't allow speeds as low as required by true 576i..

I'm not actually answering your question (I couldn't since I don't
have any experience with these modern TVs), but, AFAIK, you wouldn't
get very good results by doing what you describe. If every frame of
50Hz interlaced moving picture is shown twice, you'll get annoying
blurriness and / or jerky movement. Anyhow, the movement won't be
smooth as you might expect (because the frames are shown like this:
1-2-1-2-3-4-3-4-5-6-5-6-7-8-7-8 instead of 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8). You'll
get much better results by doing true deintercaling, and showing
every full frame just once (i.e. 1+2-3+4-5+6-7+8 and so on). So what
you want would be quite useless, IMHO, though I could be wrong.
Someone correct me if you know better =).

If you really want to show interlaced material as they are supposed to
- i.e. you are a Hifi-lover - then the only real solution is to get
a display that can (truly) show 50Hz interlaced - perhaps via a DXR3
card, as you used to =).


 I am using xineliboutput currently as the software output device. Of
 course I would prefer it to use 576i for only the interlaced SD channels
 / recordings and change to 1080p for media player with HD content ;)

I'd just deinterlace via software (or hardware), and then upscale x2
(576 * 2 = 1052). Or, maybe forget the upscaling and send 576p (n *
50Hz) trough the HDMI/DVI.

-- 
-- 
Ville Aakko - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [vdr] 576i output on DVI-HDMI?

2008-07-15 Thread Ville Aakko
2008/7/15 Jukka Vaisanen [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Well the 100Hz is just a kludge to fit 576i on the HDMI signaling. My 
 understanding is that the following happens:

 PC sends 1-1-2-2-3-3-4-4.. but the a/v receiver just ignores every other 
 frame because it knows about the 576i kludge also.. so it is just seeing 
 1+2-3+4 going into the deinterlacer + scaler. The 100Hz thing is just a 
 workaround to get enough data on the link so that the HDMI handshake will 
 happen :P

I'd try to make a modeline:

$ gtf 720 576 50

  # 720x576 @ 50.00 Hz (GTF) hsync: 29.65 kHz; pclk: 26.57 MHz
  Modeline 720x576_50.00  26.57  720 736 808 896  576 577 580 593
-HSync +Vsync

$ gtf 720 576 100

  # 720x576 @ 100.00 Hz (GTF) hsync: 61.10 kHz; pclk: 58.66 MHz
  Modeline 720x576_100.00  58.66  720 760 840 960  576 577 580 611
-HSync +Vsync

(if these blow up your 50'' fullHD plasma, you're on your own - try
them at your own risk!)

I'd suspect VDR+xinelibout would not support this out of the box. You
probably need to make a script or something to change resolutions when
needed. Also, xinelibout might not like resolution switches on the
fly. But if this is the case, it could probably be worked around by
making xinelibout / X part a frontend (I believe this is possible and
a very common setup anyways), and restarting it when needed.

OTOH, I don't see much gain in doing the above compared to the
deinterlacing in software and then scaling, apart from saving some CPU
cycles. I'd doubt any external display could do a better job, though
then again, I haven't had any experience with those modern (post-4:3
CRT era TV) displays =)

 - Ville

-- 
-- 
Ville Aakko - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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