Re: [vdr] OT: issues about binary only code in GPLed programs [WAS] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-07-01 Thread Georg Acher
On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 12:33:39PM +0200, Clemens Kirchgatterer wrote:
 
   because that means they get an stable and well performing OS at zero
   cost for their embedded designes what makes these chips sell better.
  
  So what? Wasn't it idea of free Software to get it without paying for
  it?
 
 no. and i'm a little bit shocked to read this from you. i hope this is
 just an unlucky wording.

No, it's not. Free is free, you can't make differences between hardware
vendors using Linux as a basis for their HW and SW vendors using Linux as an
OS for their SW. And that's exactly the intention of your wording (zero
cost). 

  Or is there a newly inserted paragraph about hardware vendors to
  pay something if they use free SW?
 
 sarcasm does not help here either. 

Oh, it helps a lot to tolerate opinions from people who don't know what's
behind selling hardware with chips from others. There are things you can't
change, eg. NDAs.

 free software does not care about how practical or profitable it is for
 you to fulfill your distribution-license requirements.

Until now, there's AFAIK no legal decision that you are not allowed to
include binary only modules in the kernel. If it gets that far, we will put
in user space. No real gain, but if it helps...
  
  The usual practical anti-binary arguments for a PC platform (new
  mainboard requires new kernel) don't count here, it's an embedded
  system. You can't simply switch the kernel anyway, as it has many
  additions for the V4L-stuff.
 
 what if i wan't to put additional faetures into the card? what if i
 want to fix a bug in the firmware? benefit from performance improvments
 in later kernel releases?

IMO a theoretical question. This is not file server. It's a video decoding
card. Most of the important stuff is done in the (closed) co-processors
anyway. If you want it to be a file server, you don't need the HDMI output.

 it is not you who has to decide what i do with my hardware. THAT is the
 whole point of free software. get real.

Don't buy it and wait for a card with better Linux support.

I'm beginning to understand why big consumer hardware vendors won't do Linux
support at all, if they get always this friendly reception...
 
 [..]
 
 many people don't care about their freedom as users. either because
 they don't have the knowledege to fiddle with the software themselfs or
 they rather have binary drivers for their expensive / high performance
 video card than free drivers for a cheep one. fine. but at least
 vendors MUST respect the will of the countless developers who release
 their work under the license of their choice for a reason.

Apropos developers: How much do YOU already have developed for the Linux
kernel, DVB-API or vdr? I've made the experience that the loudest people in
this GPL issue have the least contributions...

But it's getting tedious. Take it or leave it, that's all I can say.
-- 
 Georg Acher, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 http://www.lrr.in.tum.de/~acher
 Oh no, not again ! The bowl of petunias  

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Re: [vdr] OT: issues about binary only code in GPLed programs [WAS] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-07-01 Thread Georg Acher
On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 02:33:21PM +0100, Darren Salt wrote:
 
 That doesn't matter. It's still Linux-based and you still need to release the
 modified sources (I'd say enough to allow the building of a complete
 filesystem image for the device).

To make it clear: This whole argument is *ONLY* about the HDMI chip driver,
which is the only closed source part in the kernel. This part is *not* a
modification of some existing code. You can build the whole image without it
(or maybe with a dummy module) from source, and all the video decoding and
analog output will still work, but you lose and HDMI/DVI output.

Maybe there will be a better solution later, but for the moment that's it.
There are enough real challenges in the project than thinking about how that
module can be put into user space...

-- 
 Georg Acher, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 http://www.lrr.in.tum.de/~acher
 Oh no, not again ! The bowl of petunias  

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Re: [vdr] OT: issues about binary only code in GPLed programs [WAS] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-07-01 Thread Darren Salt
I demand that Georg Acher may or may not have written...

 On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 02:33:21PM +0100, Darren Salt wrote:
 That doesn't matter. It's still Linux-based and you still need to release
 the modified sources (I'd say enough to allow the building of a complete
 filesystem image for the device).

 To make it clear: This whole argument is *ONLY* about the HDMI chip driver,
 which is the only closed source part in the kernel. This part is *not* a
 modification of some existing code.

That part may not be, but you can't simply switch the kernel anyway, as it
has many additions for the V4L-stuff. That (to me) says 'modified kernel
source'...

[snip]
-- 
| Darren Salt| linux or ds at  | nr. Ashington, | Toon
| RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army
| + Lobby friends, family, business, government.WE'RE KILLING THE PLANET.

I am Zarniwoop of Borg. I've been waiting 900 years to assimilate you...

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Re: [vdr] OT: issues about binary only code in GPLed programs [WAS] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-07-01 Thread Georg Acher
On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 03:55:04PM +0100, Darren Salt wrote:
 I demand that Georg Acher may or may not have written...
 
  On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 02:33:21PM +0100, Darren Salt wrote:
  That doesn't matter. It's still Linux-based and you still need to release
  the modified sources (I'd say enough to allow the building of a complete
  filesystem image for the device).
 
  To make it clear: This whole argument is *ONLY* about the HDMI chip driver,
  which is the only closed source part in the kernel. This part is *not* a
  modification of some existing code.
 
 That part may not be, but you can't simply switch the kernel anyway, as it
 has many additions for the V4L-stuff. That (to me) says 'modified kernel
 source'...

But that's included as source and released by Micronas as GPL. What I meant
with you can't simply was that you need to do the all the diff'ing and
porting the additions to a newer kernel version, which will not be actively
supported. You can do it but I doubt the gain and RMM will stick to the
official kernel version provided by Micronas anyway.

-- 
 Georg Acher, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 http://www.lrr.in.tum.de/~acher
 Oh no, not again ! The bowl of petunias  

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Re: [vdr] OT: issues about binary only code in GPLed programs [WAS] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-07-01 Thread Clemens Kirchgatterer
Georg Acher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 No, it's not. Free is free, you can't make differences between
 hardware vendors using Linux as a basis for their HW and SW vendors
 using Linux as an OS for their SW. And that's exactly the intention
 of your wording (zero cost). 

strange interpretation of my words. where did i say, that there is any
difference from SW to HW vedors? zero cost implied, that some vendors
just try to get a free ride. otherwise there was no need for

http://gpl-violations.org/

 Oh, it helps a lot to tolerate opinions from people who don't know
 what's behind selling hardware with chips from others. There are
 things you can't change, eg. NDAs.

you can't change the GPL either.
 
  free software does not care about how practical or profitable it is
  for you to fulfill your distribution-license requirements.
 
 Until now, there's AFAIK no legal decision that you are not allowed to
 include binary only modules in the kernel. If it gets that far, we
 will put in user space. No real gain, but if it helps...

you are nitpicking. if you have read the kernel license and you
understood its intention you can not think binary modules would not
violate it. the GPL was never really challenged in court (at least to my
knownledge), does that mean it's invalid? the FSF itself clearly
stated, that binray only modules violate the GPL, who would know better?

[..]

  it is not you who has to decide what i do with my hardware. THAT is
  the whole point of free software. get real.
 
 Don't buy it and wait for a card with better Linux support.
 
 I'm beginning to understand why big consumer hardware vendors won't
 do Linux support at all, if they get always this friendly reception...

the usual ranting.

what does linux support have to do with wether you obey a certain
license or not? we are talking about the os on a pci card here. you
decided to use free software for your benefit, to make the card cheaper
or better or whatever. cool, no problem. what? you signed a NDA that
does not allow you distribute the os in the first place? your bad.

if it is so easy for you to change the offending software part, why not
from the beginning? your product specs sound really good and the fact
that there is linux running on top of the hardware seems to make it a
nice toy, at least at a first glance. the firmware of the ttpci cards
are a good example of why i would love to have a more open firmware on
it. how long did it take until it was stable? too long. 4MB ram support
could only be added by someone with access to the source code. did it
help anybody to keep the source locked up? did it prevent sc? no.

so i'm all for a DVB/video card that does not have these
limitations. people like to tinker with their harware. even if it's not
me personally who does something unusual with that thing, someone
will. the pure possiblillity of beeing hackable adds value to it.
the linux kernel, being monolithic, can be a showstopper if it can not
be changed/upgraded.

  many people don't care about their freedom as users. either because
  they don't have the knowledege to fiddle with the software
  themselfs or they rather have binary drivers for their expensive /
  high performance video card than free drivers for a cheep one.
  fine. but at least vendors MUST respect the will of the countless
  developers who release their work under the license of their choice
  for a reason.
 
 Apropos developers: How much do YOU already have developed for the
 Linux kernel, DVB-API or vdr? I've made the experience that the
 loudest people in this GPL issue have the least contributions...

regardless of wether this has something to do with the validity of my
arguments or not: i never contributet patches to the linux kernel
directly only some bugreports and patch-tests. i released one small
plugin and once or twice sent patches for vdr, but they got rejected
AFAICR, nevermind. besides from some small libraries and rather useless
tools from my early days i hope that i can convince my employer to
release my main project of the last 3 years under GPL3 [would be
hopefully rather useful for STB vendors or even xbmc]. nevertheless i
doubt i'm one of the loudest who endorses free software either. but i
truly believe that the one and only reason, why GNU/Linux is what it is
because of the GPL. otherwise it would be at best as untot as the
BSDs. 

 But it's getting tedious. Take it or leave it, that's all I can say.

a decision i will make when time has come depending on the
circumstances.

best regards ...
clemens

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Re: [vdr] OT: issues about binary only code in GPLed programs [WAS] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-07-01 Thread Matthias Schniedermeyer
On 01.07.2007 19:40, Georg Acher wrote:
 On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 06:47:18PM +0200, Clemens Kirchgatterer wrote:
 
  or better or whatever. cool, no problem. what? you signed a NDA that
  does not allow you distribute the os in the first place? your bad.
 
 Once again, and now in capitals.
 
 IT'S ONLY THE HDMI DRIVER. THE REST OF THE KERNEL IS GPL AND YOU CAN FIDDLE
 WITH IT AS YOU LIKE. 
 
 You won't find any HDMI chip without NDA for the forseeable future. No NDA,
 no chips, no HDMI. So there's simply no choice at all and analog inputs are
 slowly dying. A card without HDMI is already dead in the market.

If only the hardware vendors where as united as the movie-industry.

The result would have been a clear F*ck You.

But with all that backstabing from the left/right/up/down/center, the only
looser is the group between their chairs. (The consumer).

It's the same with the current PNR and SWIFT data-transfers to the USA.

If the EU would be united and say F*ck You the USA could happily close 
their borders. But i'd say the backlash from the economy would open up 
the borders faster than you can say 'Bad Idea'.

According to Wikipedia (sorry german)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_L%C3%A4nder_nach_Bruttoinlandsprodukt
the EU (in total) has a greater gross domestic product than the USA!
And the EU has more citizens (about 300M USA, about 492M EU).



But in all those cases the unity lacks and the Power Player wins.
I'd say: Murphy's law proven right again.





Bis denn

-- 
Real Programmers consider what you see is what you get to be just as 
bad a concept in Text Editors as it is in women. No, the Real Programmer
wants a you asked for it, you got it text editor -- complicated, 
cryptic, powerful, unforgiving, dangerous.


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Re: [vdr] OT: issues about binary only code in GPLed programs [WAS] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-07-01 Thread Georg Acher
On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 08:43:04PM +0200, Matthias Schniedermeyer wrote:
 
 If only the hardware vendors where as united as the movie-industry.

HDCP was invented by Intel, Silicon Image holds a lot of patents on DVI and
HDMI. As long as they can sell chips and licenses, they don't care about the
consumer, looks quite united to me ;-)

In principle, HDMI is not that bad (ok, the mechanical part is ugly...). In
contrast to DVI, it allows to encapsulate audio and additional information,
which makes it much more universal. Unfortunately it is quite expensive to
get into the club (and buy chips) and the legal stuff is -er- demanding...

And quite frankly, the dumb consumer doesn't care about HDCP and its
implications. Compared to DRM on music, HDCP is invisible to him, he has no
visible disadvantage. So all the boycott stuff is for freaks only. The
consumer buys a display with HDMI and it just works (with or without
HDCP). BTW: HDMI doesn't mean you have to enable HDCP.

But you can't tell the consumer sorry, we think that HDMI is
bad/crap/useless anyway, so we have only analog output. He will look for
another product with a plug in the right form factor. And nobody spends a
few hundred thousand $ on HW development just for a freak product...

-- 
 Georg Acher, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 http://www.lrr.in.tum.de/~acher
 Oh no, not again ! The bowl of petunias  

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Re: [vdr] OT: issues about binary only code in GPLed programs [WAS] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-07-01 Thread Darren Salt
I demand that Georg Acher may or may not have written...

[snip]
 And quite frankly, the dumb consumer doesn't care about HDCP and its
 implications. Compared to DRM on music, HDCP is invisible to him, he has no
 visible disadvantage.

That's as may be... however, it does seem to be ignoring those of us who
happen to want video output in a window (as I do now with vdr  gxine). If
there's any taintware involved in that, I for one don't want it.

(And I couldn't care less about it right now, at least for my own use -
there's no terrestrial HD broadcasting here and there won't be until 2012 at
the earliest, that being when analogue transmission is switched off.)

 So all the boycott stuff is for freaks only.

Right... so consumers are either dumb or freaks... remember that you're one
too :-รพ

[snip]
-- 
| Darren Salt| linux or ds at  | nr. Ashington, | Toon
| RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army
| + Travel less. Share transport more.   PRODUCE LESS CARBON DIOXIDE.

Since you're going to die anyway, can we use you as a shield?

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Re: [vdr] OT: issues about binary only code in GPLed programs [WAS] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-07-01 Thread Matthias Schniedermeyer
On 01.07.2007 21:10, Georg Acher wrote:
 On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 08:43:04PM +0200, Matthias Schniedermeyer wrote:
  
  If only the hardware vendors where as united as the movie-industry.
 
 HDCP was invented by Intel, Silicon Image holds a lot of patents on DVI and
 HDMI. As long as they can sell chips and licenses, they don't care about the
 consumer, looks quite united to me ;-)

That's the back-stabbing-part i meant.

You can be certain that there is someone to pick up a knife laying around.

Here is another example of such a knife thing from today:
http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/07/07/01/0221213.shtml

They invented it because they think that someone will want it (and most 
probably someone will), just the same as Intel/Silicon Image.

Another word would be:
anticipatory obedience (vorauseilender Gehorsam (translated by 
dict.leo.org))






Bis denn

-- 
Real Programmers consider what you see is what you get to be just as 
bad a concept in Text Editors as it is in women. No, the Real Programmer
wants a you asked for it, you got it text editor -- complicated, 
cryptic, powerful, unforgiving, dangerous.


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