Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-07-01 Thread Steffen Barszus
Georg Acher schrieb
[ ... snip ... ]

Well, you don't have to buy the card if you would wake up in cold sweat
every once in a while because of the small binary-only part in the kernel. 

But IMO you can wait until the end of time for a full open source HDTV card
with HDMI output. If you have the time... ;-)

  

Agreed on all your points. In the end the firmware of this card is 
more open then the one of the Nowadays common FF cards - so what ? I'm 
caring only for two things at the moment:

1.) That the card comes and can also be bought
2.) That the card fits into my budget (That i can and want to pay it)

To my understanding its just about feeding the stream into the card.

Another thing: Will it have a proper framebuffer ? I mean the main 
problem of the current FF cards is that you can't do a lot of things 
because of the very limited OSD. ScumVM etc pp would be a really nice 
thing.

Just my two cents - Steffen



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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-07-01 Thread Georg Acher
On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 11:34:14AM +0200, Steffen Barszus wrote:
 
 Another thing: Will it have a proper framebuffer ? I mean the main 
 problem of the current FF cards is that you can't do a lot of things 
 because of the very limited OSD. ScumVM etc pp would be a really nice 
 thing.

The OSD framebuffer (RGBA) is accessible over PCI, but I don't know if
acceleration functions will work outside the embedded system. We are planing
to write a small fb-driver (shouldn't be that hard, as a direct mmap()
already works).

-- 
 Georg Acher, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 http://www.lrr.in.tum.de/~acher
 Oh no, not again ! The bowl of petunias  

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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-30 Thread Stefan Lucke
On Friday 29 June 2007 18:24, Georg Acher wrote:
 On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 08:21:45AM -0700, Jeremy Jones wrote:
  
  I checked out the latest Reelbox testing svn code and browsed the code to
  see if it supports this device.  I didn't look too thoroughly but it appears
  the reelbox-0.9.0 plugin does support it.  It looks like communication to
  the kernel space driver is done through shared memory and I did see some
  kernel space code to create this shared memory device (/dev/hdshmem).  I'm
  sure there is a closed source firmware or kernel module that is also used
  but since Reelbox is based on vdr this shouldn't be too much of a problem.
 
 Actually there's not much closed source that affects the usage. On the PC
 side there's none, on the card side it's only the driver for the HDMI-chip
 in the kernel 

Damm, that's the nvidia way.

They decide on which kernel it runs. If I need for some other device
a different kernel which they don't / won't support, I'm left alone.

To my opinion that is a nogo way.
I doubt if that's compatible with GPL.

 (otherwise Silicon Image would shoot us) and of course the 
 firmwares for the internal audio/video-coprocessors (delivered by Micronas).



-- 
Stefan Lucke

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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-30 Thread Torgeir Veimo


On 30 Jun 2007, at 12:17, Anssi Hannula wrote:


If I understood correctly, you only need proprietary parts for the
kernel that runs *in* the card. The kernel running on your actual  
system
does not need proprietary parts, leaving you free to use a  
different kernel.


The binary provision for drivers is a bit vague at best When some  
parts of the kernel becomes gpl3, which it might, distributing binary  
drivers for the kernel will no longer be allowed.


Sigma Designs work around this by having their binary parts running  
as user space programs.



--
Torgeir Veimo
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-30 Thread Clemens Kirchgatterer
Stefan Lucke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 They decide on which kernel it runs. If I need for some other device
 a different kernel which they don't / won't support, I'm left alone.

that's exactly what the GPL tries to prevent.

 To my opinion that is a nogo way.
 I doubt if that's compatible with GPL.

i agree, binary only kernel modules do violate the GPL. unfortunatly
many vendors get away with it.

best regards ...
clemens

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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-30 Thread Clemens Kirchgatterer
Anssi Hannula [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 If I understood correctly, you only need proprietary parts for the 
 kernel that runs *in* the card. The kernel running on your actual
 system does not need proprietary parts, leaving you free to use a
 different kernel.

yes, but as there is linux also running on the card the GPL applies
there as well. what if i want to change that?

clemens

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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-30 Thread Georg Acher
On Sat, Jun 30, 2007 at 01:29:23PM +0200, Clemens Kirchgatterer wrote:
 Anssi Hannula [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  If I understood correctly, you only need proprietary parts for the 
  kernel that runs *in* the card. The kernel running on your actual
  system does not need proprietary parts, leaving you free to use a
  different kernel.
 
 yes, but as there is linux also running on the card the GPL applies
 there as well. what if i want to change that?

Then you are loosing the HDMI output capability...

I'm also unhappy with that issue and I don't understand why it has to
be a kernel module at all. But for now it's built that way.

-- 
 Georg Acher, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 http://www.lrr.in.tum.de/~acher
 Oh no, not again ! The bowl of petunias  

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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-30 Thread Darren Salt
I demand that Torgeir Veimo may or may not have written...

[snip]
 When some parts of the kernel becomes gpl3, which it might,

That can't usefully happen so long as there are GPLv2-only components: there
would be no common licence for the whole kernel, which would make it
undistributable without splitting it up. Also, I don't believe that code
which isn't licensed under GPLv2 will be accepted anyway...

[snip]
-- 
| Darren Salt| linux or ds at  | nr. Ashington, | Toon
| RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army
| + At least 4000 million too many people. POPULATION LEVEL IS UNSUSTAINABLE.

Who cares anyway?

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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-30 Thread Georg Acher
On Sat, Jun 30, 2007 at 01:05:18PM +0200, Stefan Lucke wrote:
 
  Actually there's not much closed source that affects the usage. On the PC
  side there's none, on the card side it's only the driver for the HDMI-chip
  in the kernel 
 
 Damm, that's the nvidia way.
 
 They decide on which kernel it runs. If I need for some other device
 a different kernel which they don't / won't support, I'm left alone.

It does not affect the kernel of the host system, so don't overreact...
 
 To my opinion that is a nogo way.

Your opinion... From the outside it's easy to say that everything must be
open source...

As a small hardware manufacturer you have three possibilities:

1) Don't use a HDMI transmitter and ignore the market demand.
2) Use a HDMI transmitter, care about the NDA and deliver binary modules for
controlling it.
3) Use a HDMI transmitter, publish the controlling code and pay a contract
penalty of a few million $.

-- 
 Georg Acher, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 http://www.lrr.in.tum.de/~acher
 Oh no, not again ! The bowl of petunias  

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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-30 Thread Torgeir Veimo


On 30 Jun 2007, at 14:44, Georg Acher wrote:



As a small hardware manufacturer you have three possibilities:

1) Don't use a HDMI transmitter and ignore the market demand.
2) Use a HDMI transmitter, care about the NDA and deliver binary  
modules for

controlling it.
3) Use a HDMI transmitter, publish the controlling code and pay a  
contract

penalty of a few million $.


4) put the HDMI code in user space.



--
Torgeir Veimo
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-30 Thread Clemens Kirchgatterer
Georg Acher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 1) Don't use a HDMI transmitter and ignore the market demand.

the market never demanded an encrypted data stream on the HDMI cable,
and it is clearly the only reason they are picky about their secrets
within that driver. THEY want their chips be supported in linux
because that means they get an stable and well performing OS at zero
cost for their embedded designes what makes these chips sell better.
hardware venders should start to obey to the rules of the game, when
they want our money.

 2) Use a HDMI transmitter, care about the NDA and deliver binary
 modules for controlling it.

why not use [Free|Net|Open]BSD on the card? that whould not mean the
consumer has any advantage but at least no license violation happens.

best regards ...
clemens

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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-30 Thread Georg Acher
On Sat, Jun 30, 2007 at 08:29:19PM +0200, Clemens Kirchgatterer wrote:
 Georg Acher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  1) Don't use a HDMI transmitter and ignore the market demand.
 
 the market never demanded an encrypted data stream on the HDMI cable,

From a technical view this is right, but with just a component output you
can't sell a HDTV decoder card nowadays. And HDMI is not only about
encryption but also contains audio encapsulation. And that is an argument
for HDMI vs. DVI... HDCP on a open Linux system is useless anyway.

 and it is clearly the only reason they are picky about their secrets
 within that driver. THEY want their chips be supported in linux

The driver contains not much more than you would get with I2C-snooping. But
if you want to buy the chip, you need to sign the NDA first...

 because that means they get an stable and well performing OS at zero
 cost for their embedded designes what makes these chips sell better.

So what? Wasn't it idea of free Software to get it without paying for it? Or
is there a newly inserted paragraph about hardware vendors to pay something
if they use free SW?

 hardware venders should start to obey to the rules of the game, when
 they want our money.

Overall, all this (IMO useless) discussion is only about the HDMI driver
part which is currently (accidently) implemented in the kernel. I can't see
that it's getting any better from an OSS standpoint when it's a
closed-source user space program. Get real...

The usual practical anti-binary arguments for a PC platform (new mainboard
requires new kernel) don't count here, it's an embedded system. You can't
simply switch the kernel anyway, as it has many additions for the V4L-stuff.

  2) Use a HDMI transmitter, care about the NDA and deliver binary
  modules for controlling it.
 
 why not use [Free|Net|Open]BSD on the card? that whould not mean the
 consumer has any advantage but at least no license violation happens.

Well, you don't have to buy the card if you would wake up in cold sweat
every once in a while because of the small binary-only part in the kernel. 

But IMO you can wait until the end of time for a full open source HDTV card
with HDMI output. If you have the time... ;-)

-- 
 Georg Acher, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 http://www.lrr.in.tum.de/~acher
 Oh no, not again ! The bowl of petunias  

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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-29 Thread Ales Jurik
On Friday 29 June 2007 07:45, Jeremy Jones wrote:
 On 6/27/07, Georg Acher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Wed, Jun 27, 2007 at 09:17:03PM +0100, Torgeir Veimo wrote:
   On 27 Jun 2007, at 20:51, Igor wrote:
   Hello
   
   http://reel-multimedia.com/rmm-english/netceiver.html
   here's a good platform for future hdtv-vdr
   Are you agree ? :)
  
   Well, what's missing there is info about the 1x extra PCI slot for
   HD-Decoder-Card. Having a PCI decoder for mpeg2/4/h.264 would be
   fine, unles it's actually a mini-pci card that only works with reels
   netceiver external tuner hardware.
 
  The HDTV decoder card in PCI format will be first used for the Reelbox
  Avantgarde (based on a Mini-ITX-PC). The usage in the NetCeiver itself in
  a
  PC-less combo is planned, but I don't think a vdr can run on that
  platform without serious restrictions. For example, the NetCeiver with
  its current firmware has no real DVB-API, as the CPU has nothing to do
  with the TS streaming, it only controls the tuners. The rest (filtering
  and network encapsulation) is done in the hardware. So it will be more a
  small STB application without bells and whistles,.
 
  But the chances are high that the HD card (running with the Micronas
  DeCypher) will be seperately available. As the Reelbox uses vdr, Linux
  drivers for the HD card and the NetCeiver (a DVB-API emulation and a vdr
  plugin with more features) will be there from the start.

 Is there any information regarding availability or pricing on the HDTV PCI
 card ?  I have been waiting a long time for an HD MPEG-2/4 decoder with
 HDMI and this sounds promising :-)

 Thanks,
 Brian
See http://www.vdr-portal.de/board/thread.php?threadid=45922 . I'm waiting for 
it, but no info is available for some time. Maybe someone has any news?

Regards,
Ales

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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-29 Thread Georg Acher
On Thu, Jun 28, 2007 at 10:45:12PM -0700, Jeremy Jones wrote:
 
 Is there any information regarding availability or pricing on the HDTV PCI
 card ?  I have been waiting a long time for an HD MPEG-2/4 decoder with HDMI
 and this sounds promising :-)

Availability not earlier than August/September, the price isn't fixed yet.

-- 
 Georg Acher, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.lrr.in.tum.de/~acher
 Oh no, not again ! The bowl of petunias

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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-29 Thread Torgeir Veimo


On 29 Jun 2007, at 10:35, Georg Acher wrote:


On Thu, Jun 28, 2007 at 10:45:12PM -0700, Jeremy Jones wrote:

Is there any information regarding availability or pricing on the  
HDTV PCI
card ?  I have been waiting a long time for an HD MPEG-2/4 decoder  
with HDMI

and this sounds promising :-)


Availability not earlier than August/September, the price isn't  
fixed yet.


There is other hardware that does mpeg2/4/h.264 decoding, the lacking  
piece is always proper open source drivers.


Will this hardware have open source drivers / open specifications?

--
Torgeir Veimo
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-29 Thread Georg Acher
On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 10:47:58AM +0100, Torgeir Veimo wrote:
 
 There is other hardware that does mpeg2/4/h.264 decoding, the lacking  
 piece is always proper open source drivers.
 
 Will this hardware have open source drivers / open specifications?

With a few exceptions (eg the driver for the HDMI chip) it will be open
source. Actually, there's a Linux running on the card...

-- 
 Georg Acher, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.lrr.in.tum.de/~acher
 Oh no, not again ! The bowl of petunias

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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-29 Thread Torgeir Veimo


On 29 Jun 2007, at 10:51, Georg Acher wrote:

With a few exceptions (eg the driver for the HDMI chip) it will be  
open

source. Actually, there's a Linux running on the card...


Ok. Does the card have only HDMI output, or also other, eg. component  
or DVI? Would it be possible to use it without using the HDMI output  
in that case?


--
Torgeir Veimo
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-29 Thread Torgeir Veimo


On 29 Jun 2007, at 10:51, Georg Acher wrote:


On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 10:47:58AM +0100, Torgeir Veimo wrote:


There is other hardware that does mpeg2/4/h.264 decoding, the lacking
piece is always proper open source drivers.

Will this hardware have open source drivers / open specifications?


With a few exceptions (eg the driver for the HDMI chip) it will be  
open

source. Actually, there's a Linux running on the card...


Is this the card in question? http://www.directupload.net/images/ 
070503/CjsyApL2.jpg


--
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-29 Thread Georg Acher
On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 12:13:53PM +0100, Torgeir Veimo wrote:
 
 Is this the card in question? 
 http://www.directupload.net/images/070503/CjsyApL2.jpg

It is.
-- 
 Georg Acher, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.lrr.in.tum.de/~acher
 Oh no, not again ! The bowl of petunias

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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-29 Thread Jeremy Jones

On 6/29/07, Torgeir Veimo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



On 29 Jun 2007, at 10:35, Georg Acher wrote:

On Thu, Jun 28, 2007 at 10:45:12PM -0700, Jeremy Jones wrote:

Is there any information regarding availability or pricing on the HDTV PCI
card ?  I have been waiting a long time for an HD MPEG-2/4 decoder with
HDMI
and this sounds promising :-)


Availability not earlier than August/September, the price isn't fixed yet.


There is other hardware that does mpeg2/4/h.264 decoding, the lacking
piece is always proper open source drivers.



Do you have any links/info for such cards ?

Will this hardware have open source drivers / open specifications?




I checked out the latest Reelbox testing svn code and browsed the code to
see if it supports this device.  I didn't look too thoroughly but it appears
the reelbox-0.9.0 plugin does support it.  It looks like communication to
the kernel space driver is done through shared memory and I did see some
kernel space code to create this shared memory device (/dev/hdshmem).  I'm
sure there is a closed source firmware or kernel module that is also used
but since Reelbox is based on vdr this shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Brian
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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-29 Thread Torgeir Veimo


On 29 Jun 2007, at 17:24, Georg Acher wrote:

Actually there's not much closed source that affects the usage. On  
the PC
side there's none, on the card side it's only the driver for the  
HDMI-chip
in the kernel (otherwise Silicon Image would shoot us) and of  
course the
firmwares for the internal audio/video-coprocessors (delivered by  
Micronas).


What's important for me (and I assume a lot of others), is that it  
decodes any potentially codec in use for dvb-s/c/t and hd-dvd/ 
bluetooth (mpeg2/4, h.264 and vc-1), and that it allows output in  
480i/p, 720p, 1080i/p, both in 48fps, 50fps and 60fps. If it does all  
this and provides a judder free, tearing free picture, and can  
reclock it's output to match the input stream rate, then I'm pretty  
sure we have a winner at hand. And I would be glad to pay £200 for  
such a solution if it does all of the above and works with open  
source software.


I guess I have to wait to see what becomes available...


--
Torgeir Veimo
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-29 Thread Torgeir Veimo


On 29 Jun 2007, at 20:55, Torgeir Veimo wrote:


bluetooth


ˆMˆMˆMˆMˆMˆMray

--
Torgeir Veimo
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-29 Thread Anssi Hannula
Georg Acher wrote:
 On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 08:21:45AM -0700, Jeremy Jones wrote:
  
 I checked out the latest Reelbox testing svn code and browsed the code to
 see if it supports this device.  I didn't look too thoroughly but it appears
 the reelbox-0.9.0 plugin does support it.  It looks like communication to
 the kernel space driver is done through shared memory and I did see some
 kernel space code to create this shared memory device (/dev/hdshmem).  I'm
 sure there is a closed source firmware or kernel module that is also used
 but since Reelbox is based on vdr this shouldn't be too much of a problem.
 
 Actually there's not much closed source that affects the usage. On the PC
 side there's none,

That is great :)

 on the card side it's only the driver for the HDMI-chip
 in the kernel (otherwise Silicon Image would shoot us) and of course the
 firmwares for the internal audio/video-coprocessors (delivered by Micronas).

Well, dvb-ttpci microcode is completely closed, so it is no better in 
this regard. I don't think having non-free microcode is going to be a 
problem.

-- 
Anssi Hannula


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Re: [vdr] future VDR and Net??eiver OEM from Reelmultimedia

2007-06-28 Thread Jeremy Jones

On 6/27/07, Georg Acher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


On Wed, Jun 27, 2007 at 09:17:03PM +0100, Torgeir Veimo wrote:

 On 27 Jun 2007, at 20:51, Igor wrote:

 Hello
 
 http://reel-multimedia.com/rmm-english/netceiver.html
 here's a good platform for future hdtv-vdr
 Are you agree ? :)

 Well, what's missing there is info about the 1x extra PCI slot for
 HD-Decoder-Card. Having a PCI decoder for mpeg2/4/h.264 would be
 fine, unles it's actually a mini-pci card that only works with reels
 netceiver external tuner hardware.

The HDTV decoder card in PCI format will be first used for the Reelbox
Avantgarde (based on a Mini-ITX-PC). The usage in the NetCeiver itself in
a
PC-less combo is planned, but I don't think a vdr can run on that platform
without serious restrictions. For example, the NetCeiver with its current
firmware has no real DVB-API, as the CPU has nothing to do with the TS
streaming, it only controls the tuners. The rest (filtering and network
encapsulation) is done in the hardware. So it will be more a small STB
application without bells and whistles,.

But the chances are high that the HD card (running with the Micronas
DeCypher) will be seperately available. As the Reelbox uses vdr, Linux
drivers for the HD card and the NetCeiver (a DVB-API emulation and a vdr
plugin with more features) will be there from the start.



Is there any information regarding availability or pricing on the HDTV PCI
card ?  I have been waiting a long time for an HD MPEG-2/4 decoder with HDMI
and this sounds promising :-)

Thanks,
Brian
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