And yet there are many companies backing up well beyond a Terabyte from
remote offices back to their central office using de-duplication.
Consider JPMC's presentation at the last vision. They're backing up
over 200 remote offices using Puredisk, a de-duplication backup product.
I don't remember
A 1 TB array that can store 20 TB of de-duped data in it will cost about
$20K. (A general rule of them is to base your pricing on a 20:1 de-dupe
ratio, then price it at about $1/GB of effective storage. If you do
that, you'll be close to list price of a lot of products.) At that
cost, it's very
Ed Wilts said:
1) Disk ages and breaks too.
But with RAID, no longer will the failure of a piece of media cause a
backup or restore failure.
2) Transport is cheap. I'd be surprised if I couldn't transport a
thousand tapes for the cost of a terabyte of storage. Bandwidth to
move data is
This is because an expired tape gets labelled and put into the Scratch
pool automatically.
No it doesn't. It gets put in the Scratch, but it is not relabeled.
___
Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu
Yes, the disk space is still in use until you reuse the tape. This is
the same as a tape library. Technically the rest of a tape is in use
until you start writing to it from the beginning. Then the rest of the
space on the tape is not used.
Say you've got a 100-slot library with 1 TB tapes.
I try not to comment on specific named products in a public forum.
(People tend to do crazy things like sue me.) Having said that, make
sure you ask an SE familiar with that product what type of performance
you should expect.
---
W. Curtis Preston
Backup Blog @ www.backupcentral.com
VP Data
In the Legato world, relabelling the VTL volume resulted in the space
being returned to the disk. This is true even for an expired tape. ie I
needed to relabel it.
In Netbackup, I think it is significantly better. This is because an
expired tape gets labelled and put into the Scratch
Len,
Whether this is applicable or not I don't know, however we have found
with w2k3 that in order to make a restore work that includes sys state
the target must be at the same build level as the data you have on your
backup. So if your data was of a w2k3 SP1 system then you need to build
the
Does Anyone have a pointer to the differences between Netbackup 6 Server
and Netbackup 6 Enterprise Server? I cant seem to find a comparison on
symantec.
Cheers
DULLAART, Rob ONL wrote:
I am currently facing the same question.
We have Netbackup 5.1 with mp5,
I am thinking of first
It can be hard to find if you look around you may find a PDF but basically
the Enterprise allows more control/allows you do use the -h/-M commands
for better remote control and it includes some features not found in the
regular version.
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007, Dave Markham wrote:
Does Anyone
In an ACSLS environment it hangs, running it again, it works, how do I
know this? I have more than 1 ACSLS environment, same bug occurred more
than once.
It fails on the tpext update command:
It looks like this:
Running /usr/openv/netbackup/bin/admincmd/bpsyncinfo add_paths command ...
NBU 6.0 and 6.5 the master server license and media server license are
the same licennse. If you have master servers at your remote locations
you can change them to media servers and point them to your EMM server.
Doug Preston
Systems Engineer
Land America Tax and Flood Services
Phone
Not entirely true, Curtis.
When your virutal tape expires, the VTL has no way of knowing this
untill the tape is written to again.
Depending on the VTL, this may be too late.
I've got about 2TB of free space on my VTL, and about 1000 scratch VTs
(2800 total).
After a couple of weeks of
I agree with Paul on this issue.
The same is true with the VTL that I currently use.
Kevin Whittaker
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Keating
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:34 AM
To: Curtis Preston; Clem Kruger;
I currently backup 9TB of data to VTL during a FULL window which writes
~100GB of data to the VTL repository in that window.
Another state is one thing, but across town via DWDM is no prob.
out of state is handled by duping that data to phys tapewouldn't
want to dupe disk outside of a DWDM
With VTL there is no need to multistream.
Instead of writing 8 stream to 1 drive, just create 8 Virtual drives,
and not multiplex.
It's not because of a performance issue, it's an advantage of
virtualization.
As far as performance goes, with a Disk as disk config, to create a high
perf target,
NBU does not relabel expired tapes before assigning back to Scratch.
Inline copy to physical and virtual tape is a pain because you lose the
advantage of defining as many virtual drives as you want, and are
limited by the number of physical drives, unless you have priorities on
data...ie, your
Anyone using de-dupe devices like Data Domain? If so do you use VTL or
DSSU? If you use vtl is the licensing cost worth it and if so why?
We currently have a SAN environment (on the UNIX side) and were
intending to add the Data Domains to it using VTL. We're getting push
back from vendor
unless the VTL has the option to free the disk space on a schedule,
which it sounds like what Stuart is saying about the NetApp.
ie, your tape retention is set to 3 weeks, then your VTL essentially has
a 3+ week time to live on pointers.
would be kinda scarey if you entended the retention on a
Guys i've just read this thread and can say im very interested in it.
The first thing is i learned a new term called deduplication which i
didn't know existed.
Question : I gather Deduplication is using other software. DataDomain i
think i saw mentioned. Where does this fit in with Netbackup and
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007, Dave Markham wrote:
Guys i've just read this thread and can say im very interested in it.
The first thing is i learned a new term called deduplication which i
didn't know existed.
Question : I gather Deduplication is using other software. DataDomain i
think i saw
Hi All,
This is exactly right. The space is not available!
Let us assume that you need to write an urgent backup to a different set of
tapes. Although there are tapes that have expired, you may not have space on
the DISK to write to those tapes, your backup will fail. Now go back to the
Data Domain makes a hardware storage device (disks) which does
deduplication. Rather than backing up block for block all the time it
does it only for the first backup. For subsequent backups rather than
doing an incremental backup at file level it backups up incrementally at
block level meaning
For on-demand type database backups, I had great success with setting up
a simple SATA-based DSU which was seen by one of the media servers. It
had a vault policy to dump it to tape after 4-5 days, then expire the
DSU image. It worked out great for informix onbar log dumps
especially...
Harry S.
It's not as complicated as you make it sound.
Like tape, you need to keep some overhead in free disk.
If you want to maximize the contiguous free disk available, then you
would bplable tapes as they expire and go back to scratch.
As you write to a scratch tape, the space that cart previously
There are several.
FalconStor, Diligent, Quantum and Sepaton I believe will all present a
tape to an NDMP device, and provide de-dupe on the backend.
Paul
--
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Jim Horalek
Sent: September 24, 2007
Thanks to refer me to below links which I had done all the reading.
http://library.veritas.com/docs/282326
http://support.veritas.com/docs/285223).
If yours read my question carefully, there is not roll back
procedure for media server.
The links above is the roll back procedure for
On a similar note how does NDMP play with Disk de-dup? All of the de-dups
I've seem are NAS devices. NDMP only talks to tape or VTL. Are there VTL's
with De-dup that would solve the NDMP problem?
Jim
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave
Hi Dave,
Yes it is a difficult decision I have looked at DataDomain with
NetBackup. I have found that the backups are faster and there is a vast
amount of disk being saved.
NetBackup 6.5 includes de-duplication and I have become a great friend
of it. To use the words of a supplier, Saving me
Haha,
Yes Paul, when you have made life so easy that DBA's decide they can make
backups without letting the storage group know, it is not so easy.
Kind Regards,
Clem Kruger
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Keating
Sent: 24
Do you need a special license for 6.5 or can those with 6.0 licenses
upgrade? I assume you need to open a case with NetBackup to get the
download links?
Justin.
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007, Clem Kruger wrote:
Hi Dave,
Yes it is a difficult decision I have looked at DataDomain with
NetBackup. I
I am not quite sure how it is done there. I would contact Symantec in
your area and ask how they will manage your license.
Kind Regards,
Clem Kruger
-Original Message-
From: Justin Piszcz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 24 September 2007 19:16 PM
To: Clem Kruger
Cc: [EMAIL
Per my Data Domain rep - when a DSU image expires, NBU deletes it. Data
Domain's product then checks all the blocks associated with that image file and
removes any that are not shared by any other backups.
-Jonathan
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
What filesystem is on the appliance?
Does the app then defrag the small chunks of dereferenced space into
contiguous chunks?
Or does the next backup write to whatever chunks of free space it can
find (performance?)
--
-Original Message-
From: Martin, Jonathan [mailto:[EMAIL
My understanding is that the file system is completely virtual. The file
list you can pull as a CIFS or NFS share, but each file is made up of chunks
on the back end. I think by definition deduplication involves LOTS of
fragments. :)
I questioned the performance myself - I haven't test
The problem is not de-dupe; the problem is thin provisioning and
oversubscription. There are a lot of VTLs that allow both (with or w/o
de-dupe), and if you define more tapes than you actually have disk, you will
have this problem. I'll concede that oversubscription is a natural state in a
lib_usage
Attached is a Perl script that we use to calculate the capacity and
usage of our physical and virtual tape libraries. It parses the
available_media output and based on the average capacity of each FULL
tape, it is able to determine an approximate capacity and usage of the
whole
Running 6.0MP4 over W2K3 standard svr SP2
I recently changed the Clean-up on my Master server from 90 to 365 days.
Does anyone know of a way to recover the data that has been cleaned up? Going
back to say... The beginning of the year?
I need to be able to verify if a certain database backup
Dave,
Dude, you've got to get our more. ;) I'd recommend continually perusing
some of these sites to stay current on what's going on in the industry.
De-dupe is kind of the most-mentioned topic in the storage industry
since I don't know what.
http://www.searchstorage.com
Do you have backups of the master server?
-- M
gturner
netbackup-forum@
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007, gturner wrote:
Running 6.0MP4 over W2K3 standard svr SP2
I recently changed the Clean-up on my Master server from 90 to 365 days.
Does anyone know of a way to recover the data that has been cleaned up?
Going back to say... The beginning of the year?
I need to be
Yes,
I went digging around and I believe I found it. But wasnt sure.
I was going to restore the Program Files\Veritas\Netbackup\logs directory.
I believe that will solve my issues.
+--
|This was sent by [EMAIL PROTECTED] via
I think I'm beginning to understand my confusion to some of the earlier
comments and now see from the conversations that are taking place that the way
we are using our VTL's is vastly different from the way that most of the
respondents to this thread are using theirs.
Correct me if I'm wrong,
How long do you keep your catalog backup tapes?
-Jonathan
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of gturner
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 3:28 PM
To: VERITAS-BU@mailman.eng.auburn.edu
Subject: [Veritas-bu] Restoring Log Data
Running 6.0MP4
Question : I gather Deduplication is using other software.
DataDomain i
think i saw mentioned. Where does this fit in with Netbackup and does
the software reside on every client or just a server somewhere?
In the technologies I'm familiar with--one of them is old, another new,
it's
Retention is 1 week. But I have expired images going back to 06 on media.
+--
|This was sent by [EMAIL PROTECTED] via Backup Central.
|Forward SPAM to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Simplistically, it checksums the block and looks in a table of
checksums-of-blocks-that-it-already-stores to see if the identical
ahem, anyone see a hole here? data already lives there.
To what hole do you refer? I see one in your simplistic example, but
not in what actually happens (which
On Mon, Sep 24, 2007 at 05:08:31PM -0400, bob944 wrote:
In the technologies I'm familiar with--one of them is old, another new,
it's conceptually simple. The system, whether that's a standalone
system or a box of disk with some smarts or an agent on the backup
client, receives data and
There are no products in the market that rely solely on a checksum to
identify redundant data. There are a few that rely solely on a 160-bit
hash, which is significantly larger than a checksum (typically 12-16
bits). There are some who are concerned about hash collisions in this
scenario. I am
I think you nailed it, Stu. I remember your previous posts on this topic, and
that you said you went to this method because the NBU Vault method wasn't
duping the tapes fast enough for you. As I recall, it was because your backups
had millions of files in them, and this was slowing down your
Hmm.. That's a problem. Oh well, back to the drawing board.
Curtis Preston wrote:
This is because an expired tape gets labelled and put into the Scratch
pool automatically.
No it doesn't. It gets put in the Scratch, but it is not relabeled.
--
Larry Mascarenhas
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Is there any reason that I would not want to change a schedule name? I
see that it is tracked in the images file, but from what I understand it
isn't needed to perform a restore. Would one not want to change this for
any reason?
Jason Ellis
Technical Consultant
IT Storage - Data
The only possible reason that I can think of, is that might cause a full backup
instead of a incremental the next time it runs, but that should be about it.
Regards,
Patrick Whelan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
VERITAS Certified NetBackup Support Engineer for UNIX English
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I don't think there are any issues with that. Changing a policy name is
a problem, but not schedule names.
---
W. Curtis Preston
Backup Blog @ www.backupcentral.com
VP Data Protection, GlassHouse Technologies
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL
The talk about the tapeless environments has got me thinking, and oddly enough,
we just got a visit from our Quantum sales reps talking about the DXi series
dedupe products.
Any of you folks have much experience with the Symantec NBU PureDisk approach?
We have some remote offices that I
This will be the case, even when an Incremental is scheduled, when the
policy name is changed or a client put in to a different policy
altogether.
Regards
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick
Sent: Monday, September 24,
Curtis,
Yes, that is correct. I am remembering all of the PAIN associated with having
NetBackup Vault make copies to physical tape. It went something like this:
1) do the backup to VTL
2) vault images from VTL to physical tape
3) keep track of the stuff that has been vaulted and then expire
I'm not convinced that writing to a DataDomain is going to be faster than
writing to multiple LTO-3 drives over a SAN. The DD is limited to about
90MB/sec which is on par with 1-2 LTO-3 drives and not much more than that.
Unless, of course, you consider adding extra DD units for every 2 LTO-3
That scenario is exactly what Puredisk was designed for. If it's
typical user data (i.e. not auto-generated data like seismic or medical
imaging), I'd estimate less than 1% a day going across the wire, often
less than 0.5%. (Your mileage may vary, of course.)
---
W. Curtis Preston
Backup Blog @
I'm not convinced either. Although our numbers are a little different,
you and I end up roughly at the same place. There are a number of
vendors whose de-dupe targets top out at about 200-300 MB/s, which is
roughly the speed of 2-3 LTO-3 drives, depending on how well you use
them. If you need
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